Forums https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl AUDIO FORUMS >> Room Treatment   >> my room treatment chronicles https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1615748986 Message started by piezoman on 03/14/21 at 20:09:46

Title: my room treatment chronicles Post by piezoman on 03/14/21 at 20:09:46 IAW  https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1614882463  I thought I'd share my little journey. 1.  2 side wall absorber panels  24x48x2 https://www.dropbox.com/s/76rgzcbxrhc5k8e/20210314_102218.jpg?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/eup177hy9frf5l1/20210314_102228.jpg?dl=0 Notes: For the all important 1st reflection points. I added bracing in the back sides, cutting into a little of the Owens Corning 703 fiberglass boards to accommodate. I added screening, tight across tops & bottom, on the front sides as a foundation for a nice flat unwrinkled affixment of the acoustic fabric. I will also affix that white underlining fabric you see on the underside of alot of furniture for a nice finish in the back sides. The screen & underlining will also serve to keep fibers from the OC fiberglass boards from getting out into air. 2. 2 tube bass traps   https://www.dropbox.com/s/4qhaj27t8ocypn7/20210314_102157.jpg?dl=0 Notes: These had to be cut exactly 1/2 height of ceiling. I attached 26/32"x1" plywood using a thick bead of gorilla glue to attach to the bottom of the tubes. I cut the plywood with a jigsaw. The heavy plywood will also serve to keep the tubes from tilting. The bottoms must be airtight and the tops remain open for these to work. WAITING ON FABRIC. These can be filled [loosely] with "Poly-fil" for a wider bandwidth. I might try this, however I'm told that these should be left empty for a narrower bandwidth which directly addresses problems with the kind of bass buildup specifically associated with small rooms. By the way, the bag of 26/32"x1" plywood blocks will serve as "feet" to the wall panels and the diffuser panels, so that they are offset from the wall by 1". This vastly improves their effectiveness. I will glue one to each of the 4 corners of each device, then affix them to the walls using "3M 17206 Commander Large Picture Hanging Strips". 4 of these will hold more than 16 lbs [one strip is rated at 16 lbs.], though the panels are a little lighter than 16 lbs. Affixing this way avoids holes into the walls, and allows for ease of moving them around. 3. 2 rear corner absorption panels  12x24x2 [Not started yet] Notes: Will be built just like wall panels, only 1/2 the size. Mounting will be 45* across the 2 rear adjacent walls, between the tube bass traps and the upper corner-to-ceiling trianglular absorbers. 4. 4 upper corner-to-ceiling triangular absorbers  14" on all 3 sides [Not started yet] Notes: These will be constructed with heavy duty cardboard, folded. White felt fabric will cover them. They will be stuffed with "Poly-fil" One can fill with old socks if you like. They will be affixed into position by "T-pins" into the ceiling tile. WAITING ON FELT FABRIC. 5. 4 AI Audio Group "AQD1" styrofoam quadratic diffuser panels [Not received yet] Notes: 2 male + 2 female panels. These will be painted black with 6-8 coats of water based paint, with Elmer's some glue mixed in for a nice hard finish. This keeps them reflective for the diffusion effect in the room, and not partially absorptive. They will be framed with the same pine furring strips as the absorber panels, which will be sanded and stained for a nicer visual effect. Ongoing efforts will be updated as they occur. I am waiting on delivery of acoustic fabric and felt fabric.

Title: Re: my room treatment chronicles Post by GroovySauce on 03/14/21 at 23:24:25 I'm looking forward to hearing about your experience once you get your room treated and dialed in. I really enjoy seeing people posting their acoustic treatments and how they setup their room. Such an important aspect of a mind bending musical experience.

Title: Re: my room treatment chronicles Post by will on 03/15/21 at 00:35:41 Sounds and looks good piezo. Also looking forward to your impressions and pics once you get it all finished and tuned!

Title: Re: my room treatment chronicles Post by piezoman on 03/15/21 at 01:11:57 Thank you gentlmen! Indeed, I will continue updating to the finished product, and when its all done and installed I will post shots of the room and provide my subjective impressions.

Title: Re: my room treatment chronicles Post by JBzen on 03/15/21 at 10:59:33 Seems like a flexible plan. I also am looking forward to pictures and impressions. John

Title: Re: my room treatment chronicles Post by piezoman on 03/26/21 at 20:49:20 I have completed my DIY efforts on all the absorber panels, absorber upper corner triangles, and bass traps. It was really fun! They look real good. The diffuser panels will be delivered today, finally. I will paint them 6-8 coats of black paint with the Elmer's glue mixed in, stain the wood to frame them. I decided in slightly bigger size than the absorber panels, went with 1x4x8's and a better quality wood since the frames will show and are part of the "visual ambience". I will post photos of everything in the next week or so, once the room is completed.....I am in the midst of painting the room in 2 colors [upper and lower walls separated by a simple wood trim railing], and getting the Steve-approved carpet and correct rubberized waffle padding installed. Further tweaks, if necessary, will be made in the treatments arena, based on the analyzed results of frequency recordings I will make with a MINIDSP UMIK-1 microphone purchased used off ebay.

Title: Re: my room treatment chronicles Post by JBzen on 03/26/21 at 22:21:45 You go piezoman! Good to hear all the progress. Beware, you are going to be tweaking those ares that surface after the initial plan is in place. In my space there are areas that need attention but I decided that DIY interconnects and speakers cables would make a good change of pace. Enjoy(even though it seems you thoroughly are)! Looking forward to pictures. John

Title: Re: my room treatment chronicles Post by piezoman on 03/26/21 at 22:58:45 Thanks John! [there's 2 of you] Its a blast. You rssearch, ask questions, learn, study, watch youtube DIY videos, definitely more fun than just paying a boatload of $$. DIY cables eyc sounds fun too! .You save $$ and learn alot more that way.......something I want to venture into. I'm going to soon get some help from one of our illustrious forum members and delve into my 25th anniversay csp3 and 25th modded Taboo MK IV and make some changes that will make both that much better. - Brad

Title: Re: my room treatment chronicles Post by piezoman on 05/07/21 at 20:37:56 I have completed the initial PI Audio-directed suite of room treatments. It was alot of work to do it right, but man it was alot of fun! [except for painting the diffusers 7 coats, auughhh, that was drudgery and a pain in the ass]. A 4'x2' stained frame....built 6 of these:

Title: Re: my room treatment chronicles Post by piezoman on 05/07/21 at 20:44:03 2'x1' absorbers. Braces were added in each corner.

Title: Re: my room treatment chronicles Post by piezoman on 05/07/21 at 20:45:51 4'x2' side wall absorbers. Braces were added in the3 corners so that 1 1/2" corks could be screwed in to offset for the wall a total of 2":

Title: Re: my room treatment chronicles Post by piezoman on 05/07/21 at 20:48:52 the 2 smaller rear corner absorbers and 2 larger side wall absorbers were outfitted with fabric on the rear sides. Corks screwed in. Picture hanging wire for the mounting on the walls.

Title: Re: my room treatment chronicles Post by piezoman on 05/07/21 at 20:51:56 close-up of one of the corner corks:

Title: Re: my room treatment chronicles Post by piezoman on 05/07/21 at 20:53:03 2 male and 2 female PI Audio diffusers, painted and then mounted in the frames:

Title: Re: my room treatment chronicles Post by piezoman on 05/07/21 at 20:54:37 upper corner triangle, affixed with white felt and plenty of poly-fil stuffed behind:

Title: Re: my room treatment chronicles Post by piezoman on 05/07/21 at 20:56:20 one of the rear corners with bass absorption triangle, smaller wall absorber, and open bass trap:

Title: Re: my room treatment chronicles Post by piezoman on 05/07/21 at 20:59:18 a bass trap showing affixment of burlap fabric. note that the yellow underneath is not readily visible, the camera flash here influences the look.

Title: Re: my room treatment chronicles Post by piezoman on 05/07/21 at 21:00:37 front wall with 3 diffusers. the 4th diffuser is hung horizontally on rear wall.

Title: Re: my room treatment chronicles Post by piezoman on 05/07/21 at 21:02:39 view of side wall absorber, showing cork and offset from wall. by the way, the same 1 1/2" corks were also installed on all of the diffusers, for a 2" offset from the wall as well.

Title: Re: my room treatment chronicles Post by piezoman on 05/07/21 at 21:11:23 last and not least, the big fat comfy leather recliner, on sliders, moved over inside the rear 1/3 of the room when listening. I'll need a smoking jacket and a brandy snifter, lol

Title: Re: my room treatment chronicles Post by HockessinKid on 05/07/21 at 23:14:13 Brad, Looks good. You might try lowering the diffusers behind your amp and speakers. Your trying to diffuse soundwaves coming off the rear & center of your speakers. HK

Title: Re: my room treatment chronicles Post by GroovySauce on 05/07/21 at 23:22:46 fantastic! glad it's all coming together! I like that you put a frame around the diffusers really classes them up.   How many total absorption panels do you have? Have you had a chance to sit down relax and listen? I would like to hear your listening impressions.

Title: Re: my room treatment chronicles Post by will on 05/07/21 at 23:34:42 Wow, closing in. Way to go! I too am looking forward to impressions, as well as what stays and what goes as you adjust things. Bet you are too!

Title: Re: my room treatment chronicles Post by piezoman on 05/09/21 at 03:07:18 HK, thank you. The height of the diffuser trio on the front wall is precisely where Dave Elleridge told me to place them at the beginning. When I completed everything, I sent him that photo. He confirmed the placement is 100% correct. Are you seeing something that maybe Dave missed?

Title: Re: my room treatment chronicles Post by piezoman on 05/09/21 at 03:27:33 Groove, thank you. I spent a good amount of time on those frames. I decided on 1x4' s for them instead of 1x3's ferring strips that I used for the 1'x2' and 2'x4' absorber panels. The quality of the pine wood was much better for the 1x4's to start, and I spent lots of time eith an orbital sander to make them very smooth, working from 100 to 220 grit sandpaper. I used countersink drill bits fir a nice finished look for the screws, which were hidden with wood putty before final sanding, staining, and 2 coats of satin finish polyurethane. PI Audio directed me to build just 2 of the large absorbers in my small 12x10 room at the 1st reflection points, and 2 of the smaller ones at the rear corners, positioned between the open cylindrical bass traps and the upper corner ceiling triangles, as you can see in the one photo. I asked Dave about building 2 additional larger absorber panels for the 2nd reflection points and he explained that would be overkill in a room like mine, and the 2nd reflection points are much less important in my case, the effect would be very minimal at best with the likelihood that is,would actually be a negative with unwanted deadness, again in my case. I have yet to spend appreciable listening time, but my initial take is that these treatments made a HUGE very noticeable improvement! I'll explain a bit more in my next post below to Will.

Title: Re: my room treatment chronicles Post by piezoman on 05/09/21 at 03:47:35 Will, thank you too. It was well more than worth the effort, aside from saving some coin and enjoying the satisfaction and pride with the DIY approach......the audible improvement is very significant! The ceiling and carpet/padding only adds significantly also [Steve was right on about the padding selection]......if I was to describe on one word, its CLARITY. I now realize that my untreated room, made even worse by horrible unpadded carpet on top of a cement floor was actually a REFLECTIVE NIGHTMARE, comparatively speaking. I never realized the cognitive dissonance from the timing differences between direct vs. all the random reflective sound waves and the chaos that was gping on. So much of that has been tamed now. Is it perfect? Thats inherently impossible, I couldn't discern what perfect is anyway plus its obviously utterly impractical. But man, its SO MUCH BETTER. Its much more coherent, clear, way less muddy, especially in the lower registers. Mids are clearer, highs have almost no glare at all. Its like I spent $15,000 on some magical component in the audio chain, but actually spent only about $500 on the biggest and most important component of all -- the room itself!

Title: Re: my room treatment chronicles Post by will on 05/09/21 at 06:06:16 Nice!

Title: Re: my room treatment chronicles Post by dBe on 05/14/21 at 18:00:34 Hi, guys.  I am posting my response to the idea of lowering the diffuses behind the speakers in Brad's room.  Feel free to agree or disagree... I'm easy. Lowering the one behind the rack would be a step backwards.  The rack is already acting as a diffuser.  Lowering it would reduce the overall diffusion and lose some of the center image.  Lowering the others "may" be an improvement, but may not.  The only way to know is to try it.  Here is the reasoning (physics) behind this.  Reflections below the ear rattle around the space and get eaten up by carpeting, furniture and people.  Everything in the room sits on the floor and sound reflections obey the angle of incidence = the angle of reflection law.  Sound rays (i.e., above ~ 350Hz) from the speaker that are traveling downwards will continue to do so until they lose energy.  Above the ear a room is usually an open system where the reflections are free to continue propagating relatively unobstructed.  This is especially true in small rooms.  If your room was bigger, I would have recommended a lower placement.  In small rooms where time of flight is short getting treatment up where it is immediately effective is extremely important.  They are placed high to prevent oblique reflections from the front wall/ceiling planes from smearing the image."

Title: Re: my room treatment chronicles Post by piezoman on 05/19/21 at 19:18:24 works for me. anyone beg to differ?

Title: Re: my room treatment chronicles Post by JBzen on 05/21/21 at 07:39:43 Dave's detailed practical approach with physics convinced me early on that he gets it. Brad are you still enjoying your system with some listening time under your belt? John

Title: Re: my room treatment chronicles Post by piezoman on 05/21/21 at 20:18:26 John, thanks for asking. Incredibly, I havent had time to do any listening beyond the earlier half hour initial impression that I posted. Endless lists of things to fix, repair, build, etc around the house has kept me almost totally preoccupied.......also I have been a bit reticent to do any serious listening until I correct a really idiotic screw-up in that I repainted my now newly treated listening room with semi-gloss and satin finish paint.....how dumb could I have been? I have to repaint it once again with a totally flat finish paint so that reflections are further diminished. So off to the paint store I went just today to buy the right paint....plus its a better color combination this time I think [coffee on top, a medium tan on bottom]. I plan to repaint in t3he next couple days.....THEN after 3 mos. that has gone by I can finally relax and enjoy the gallantry of finely crafted baroque 3-5 instrument chamber music, fine blues rock, early ELP, Yes, etc. in the "new" room! Brad

Title: Re: my room treatment chronicles Post by Geno on 05/21/21 at 22:26:05 Brad, I've really enjoyed watching your progress. Please post pictures when you're finished. I'm always looking for ideas and ways to improve. Best, Geno

Title: Re: my room treatment chronicles Post by piezoman on 05/22/21 at 19:51:44 Thank you Geno, how kind of you to say! I will definitely post more pics.

Title: Re: my room treatment chronicles Post by Tony on 10/26/21 at 23:49:31 Hi Brad, Very nice work.  I can imagine that now, after a few months have passed, that you are even more satisfied with the project. I was following your progress, and it has motivated me to think about my room.  I have taken steps to obtain sound absorbers and now thinking of diffusers.  I am looking at the diffusers that you used.  I contacted PI Audio and waiting to hear back.  Perhaps you can shed some light on one of those questions in the meantime.   The diffusers you ordered come in a shipping box comes containing 4- diffusers.  Do these four function independently or function only in pairs M&F.   It looks like you framed each one individually, but I'm unsure.  I liked the frames you made - a more finished look.  I can't recall if you mentioned how you mounted the diffusers into those frames.  Was that difficult? If you have any more pictures at this point, they would be great to see. Thanks, Tony

Title: Re: my room treatment chronicles Post by piezoman on 11/11/21 at 23:51:15 Hey Tony, Thank you for the kind words! I'm glad to hear that you're motivated on this subject. It makes all the difference. Muddiness is gone, glare is gone, there's better balance over most of the spectrum. CLARITY would be the one term I'd use to describe it all....significantly better separation between instruments and instruments vs. vocals. Compared to untreated status in my small room, actually the difference is monumental. Never again will I leave a room untreated! I've found that only chokes the equipment. For about $600 in total cost, it's like I was paid back > $75,000. Yes, it's that significant. Did you talk to Dave at PI Audio yet? Yes, I did fashion frames for all 4 diffuser panels. Though I measured several times, 2 of the 4 were a bit tricky to fit into the frames....so I did some firm tapping with a hammer to compress parts of some of the sides of the diffusers & greased with Crisco oil....after some coaxing I was able to be successful. I am happy with the results....they are solid and substantial. Brad PS...Indeed I have been remiss in posting new photos. I will do so soon. I will use a fairly decent camera instead of the lousy results I usually het with my cheap cell phone. PSS....it was connecting with Lonely Raven who really helped out up front and lit a fire under my sorry ass that got me really motivated. Palomino and Hockessinkid provided some advice as well. Along with Dave at PI Audio who put the plan together for me, all gave been indispensable and I owe it all to them.

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