Forums https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl AUDIO FORUMS >> D.I.Y. >> Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1593281669 Message started by Ellsworth on 06/27/20 at 19:14:29

Title: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by Ellsworth on 06/27/20 at 19:14:29 Hello.  After closely following the Big Betsy thread and also digesting the Palomino Audio Project thread, I took the plunge and bought a pair of Crystal 10 drivers.  They are now mounted in a basic rectangular baffle powered by my 25th anniversary Zen.  I have supplemented it with my Omega Deep 8 subwoofer (high-passed and crossed at 110hz) and AudioSmile supertweeters. Even in a very crude baffle, I am quite happy with the sound and feel like it all blends together pretty well.  With only 15 hours on it, this already sounds better than my Omega Super Alnico setup did.  That being said, I am sure there is much more potential here.  Options to be considered are: 1) Add LiiAudio W15 woofers to the baffle below the Crystal 10s and power them with a separate amp.  Continue to run the Crystal 10s full range with the Zen amp.  Dump the Omega sub. 2) Add separate Servo subwoofers as stands to support a modified baffle containing the Crystal 10s. 3) Add ZRock2.   Option 3 may be the easiest to implement but I feel that options 1 or 2 may provide a better option long term.  Based on the vast amount of experience out there, does anyone see pros and cons to any of the potential options? P.S.  I am a complete newbie to building any type of speaker.  I have a table-saw, router, and jigsaw and am figuring it out as I go.  So far so good though!

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by HockessinKid on 06/27/20 at 19:23:14 FWIW, I recall that Steve ran the Crystal 10 baffles at 2020 Decfest with the ZRock2 in the chain.  I think this addition will provide some magic for your Crystal 10 baffles. Congrats on the build! HK

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by Archie on 06/27/20 at 19:23:19 I've been a big fan of the ZROCK2 but for the past month I've had mine completely out of the system.  I started suspecting that is was "adding" things I didn't like.  I have the F15s in big baffles and Steve doesn't use the ZR2 with his F15s.  With this intro, I wonder too if you won't be better served by a sub.  I was very impressed by what one did for the Mini Radials.

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by Ellsworth on 06/27/20 at 19:32:20 Thanks for the responses.  Even with the crystal 10s in an open baffle I think am getting a small taste of what an open baffle sub might sound like.  That has me really intrigued. I am sure the ZRock2 would help.  I don’t have a good microphone bit my crude measurements show a roll off starting at 200 hz.    If I can only do one thing though, the dual bass woofers might be the choice,

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by Archie on 06/27/20 at 19:47:56 Did you go back through the CR10 posts by Steve to see if he used a sub with them?  I remember he ran some different things in his open baffles.

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by Geno on 06/27/20 at 19:52:49 I’ve been running the Crystals for a while now. A subwoofer helps, but IMHO, you need two bass baffles, 12” or 15”, to add the mid bass. Open baffle mid bass is pretty awesome. These plus a sub pretty much take care of the lower frequency range. I expect that that is why the Lii 15’s are so popular - extra bass without as much need for supplemental bass.

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by Ellsworth on 06/27/20 at 19:56:18 I am pretty sure he didn’t use a sub but he did strongly recommend the ZRock and used it with them. This Omega sub is not a massive slow beast that goes super deep.  It is really designed to provide bass support for the Omega single driver speakers.  It doesn’t shake the floor but on the plus side  the sound is not localized even crossed over at 110.

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by Ellsworth on 06/27/20 at 20:02:10 Geno's comment about needing the 12 or 15 inch woofer for mid bass support is kind of what I expected and am leaning toward.  Executing it may be a challenge but I may give it a try.   I am not sure how I would set up the amplification and send the music to the woofers.  That will require some research and learning...

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by Geno on 06/27/20 at 20:15:16 Ells, you will need a sub amplifier for the mid bass. And you can use the Palomino magic cable to optimize their usage. I was absolutely lost at first, but Pal talked me through it. Hard to get at first, but I finally understood. Go back and read the Big Betsy thread closely. I think that’s where that info is.

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by Ellsworth on 06/27/20 at 20:21:56 Geno.  Thanks for the comments.  I will re read that thread.  It is a wealth of information.

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by Geno on 06/27/20 at 20:59:18 I found where Palomino explained how the sub amp and woofer connections are made. It is on the lower part of the page:  https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1454259615/500 The amp is a Crown XLS 1002. You may reach out to Palomino too. He was able to get it through my hard head, so he does a good job of explaining it.

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by Ellsworth on 06/27/20 at 21:28:12 Thanks for the link Geno.   I will check that out.   The LiiAudio W15s look like they are made to cover both the mid-bass and bottom end.  This guy seems to have used them in a combination with the Crystal 10s that works very well:  http://www.modelpromo.nl/The%20Liiondias%20Open%20Baffle%20Speaker.htm

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by Geno on 06/27/20 at 22:15:10 There you go!  I’ve seen his posts on the Lii Audio Facebook page.

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by Brian on 06/27/20 at 23:28:24 You could add to your list: changing to the mellon shaped baffle with the curved edges for your Crystal 10s. That ought to add bass. I don't think I can articulate pros & cons, but I like your first option: Add LiiAudio W15 woofers to the baffle below the Crystal 10s and power them with a separate amp.  Continue to run the Crystal 10s full range with the Zen amp.  Dump the Omega sub. That one somehow seems like the right answer. I wonder if Steve would custom wind a pair of output transformers for one of his single ended amplifiers to optimise it for Bass for your woofer amp. Brian

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by Ellsworth on 06/28/20 at 01:30:01 I have thought about going with the Betsy shaped baffles.  However, that doesn’t work for my wife so it is out of the picture.  I am pushing my luck as it is!

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by GroovySauce on 06/28/20 at 15:38:32 At the beginning of the year I started a project with the c10’s plan is to add 2 w15s. The project is currently on hold until i can get home.  Back in February i was on the wait list for 4 w15s.   Now I’m just waiting to get home so i can tell them to ship them.   " alt="" border="0" /> After listening to the c10s in this configuration.  And spending a lot of time with the caintuck f15s I’m really excited to see how the finished project will sound after i dial in the crossover.   Posting from my phone so excuse errors.

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by Ellsworth on 06/28/20 at 16:48:37 Groovysauce and I look to be on a similar path. Groovy sauce - when you get a chance can you explain how you plan to amplify the W15s and how you are dealing with a crossover?  Thanks.

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by Brian on 06/29/20 at 04:23:28 "that doesn't work for my wife" Oh good grief!

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by Ellsworth on 06/30/20 at 12:53:00 After having explored the options a bit more, I am going to order the W15s and power then with one of the CrownXLS amps.   I will use a RCA out from my preamp to the Crown or continue to run speaker wire from Zen speaker taps and use a device that converts the speaker wires to a RCA signal. This may be biting off more than I can chew but it should be fun to try.

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by GroovySauce on 06/30/20 at 14:25:18 I’m going to be using my Torii MKiv. I’m going to use CLIO and design the crossovers based on measurements from that. I’ve been eyeing the UFO3-25th monos so maybe I’ll power the c10s with those and the w15’s with the Torii MKiv   :D

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by deucekazoo on 06/30/20 at 15:48:13 I found this little guy a while back. This is what I use with my open baffle subs. With this you can use any amp you have laying around. It works perfectly. https://rolls.com/product/SX95

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by Ellsworth on 06/30/20 at 18:02:54 Groovy sauce - that would be a great setup.  The sensitivity of the Crystal 10s makes my 25th anniversary sound much more powerful - monos would be great to hear. Deucekazoo:  very neat device.  Thanks for sharing

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by Ellsworth on 07/15/20 at 22:29:47 Still waiting for thenW15's to arrive but am now considering a few different ideas.  I don’t want to crash into the original  Big Betsy thread as this is off-topic. A question is about creating separate panels for the W15 and C10.  Combining them into one baffle seems to open up the possibility that the bass woofer will send vibrations to the Crystal 10 and smear the sound slightly.  Having separate panels as Groovysauce shows in his picture seems to make sense. Does creating separate panels for each woofer allow for better isolation of the C10 driver?

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by GroovySauce on 07/16/20 at 14:06:12 I'm not sure about the isolation between the drivers. I have wondered about putting some sort of vibration dampening between the baffle and the frame. Once I get them put together I'll play with it and see how it changes things. As for the monos. Right now thats more of wish list thing than a reality. I have a feeling the Torii MKiv will be wonderful solo driving them. The Amphions are ~91db In my small room they play loud.

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by Lon on 07/16/20 at 14:34:44 Wow, with a Torii Mk IV you'll have lots of headroom! Looking forward to your impressions.

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by Ellsworth on 07/16/20 at 16:05:38 Thanks for the reply.  I see people both isolating the drivers and putting them in the same baffle.  I am not sure if there is a consensus on this.

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by Ellsworth on 08/29/20 at 14:50:00 After two months, the speakers are finally operational.  The W-15s and Crystal 10s are in the same baffle with the Crystal 10s powered by the 25th Anniversary amp and the W15s powered by a Crown XLS1502.   The 10s run full range while the W15s are cut off at 180. The sound is everything I hoped for and more.  Hearing bass from a 15 inch woofer is a revelation.  The soundstage, detail, and tone are superb.  I haven’t played around too much with the crossover point on the W15s but the integration between the woofers feels seamless.   I just can’t say enough about how much I am enjoying the sound.  I never thought I could build speakers of this quality.   Thanks to all for their help on this thread.

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by Geno on 08/29/20 at 16:35:59 Can you dudes with new C10/W15 baffles please post some pictures? I’d love to see the finished products.  :)

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by Ellsworth on 08/29/20 at 18:11:10 I will try to post some pictures this weekend.  This is my first speaker build and greatly surpassed expectations.  I am still basking in the new sound but can’t imagine going back to box speakers again.

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by Ellsworth on 08/30/20 at 15:23:44 Here is a picture of the speakers.  They are made from birch plywood doubled up to make them 1.5 inches thick.  To make them look a little different, I beveled the front piece to give it an angled look.

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by Ellsworth on 08/30/20 at 15:25:40 One more picture.  When listening I have the blinds down and have a still Stillpoints aperture set up behind the speakers.  Two GIK diffusers are on the way so I will see what impact they have.

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by Geno on 08/30/20 at 16:21:58 Thank you for posting the pictures Ells. Impressive! The Crystals are definitely end game drivers. I see you have the Leon wings on the sides  ;)  I have 12” woofers paired with mine, but am strongly considering jumping up to 15’s.

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by Geno on 08/30/20 at 16:34:36 By the way, what is the hole size for the 15’s?

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by Ellsworth on 08/30/20 at 17:49:12 Geno.  Thanks for the compliment.  I ended up building speakers closer to the Leon  model than the Big Betsy plan.  It works better with my room and my wife likes the look better.   The W15s are inset but not perfectly  flush-mounted.  The hole where  the screws are inserted to mount the driver to  the baffle is 14 3/8”.  The outer hole is 15 3/8”. I had a listening session last night and can’t get over how good these are.  I have been into this for about 10 years now and have gone through Harbeth P3ESR, Fritz Rev 7s, and Omega Superalnico monitors.  These are easily the most satisfying speakers I have owned so far.  Of course, my equipment has improved along the way but nothing else has matched what these drivers can do.

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by Geno on 08/30/20 at 20:07:22 I know what you mean. It is really hard to stop listening   ;)

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by lazb on 08/30/20 at 22:28:06 Be happy you have way to listen to your music! Mine is packed and stored while we live in temporary quarters until our permanent house becomes available! Probably ANOTHER  couple of months no music! Decware has made the sound so delicious that I cannot bear to listen on lesser equipment.

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by Geno on 08/30/20 at 22:39:22 I’m sorry lazb. Folks definitely take a lot of things in life for granted. Covid was a wake up call for some of these. Hoping your wait is over with quickly! Very best, Geno

Title: Re: Bass supplement for Crystal 10 OB? Post by Ellsworth on 08/30/20 at 23:06:14 I hope your wait is over soon.  Being able to listen to such a great amp and speakers has been really helpful during COVID

Forums » Powered by YaBB 2.2.2! YaBB © 2000-2008. All Rights Reserved.