Forums https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl AUDIO FORUMS >> General Discussion and Support >> New DECWARE Folded Horn https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1681574815 Message started by Steve Deckert on 04/15/23 at 17:06:54

Title: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 04/15/23 at 17:06:54 Lii Song has sent me their new flagship drivers, the PT-10's which are quite the animals...  it shows a company who's passion for exceptionalism is over and above. They asked if I would design an enclosure for these drivers. When I received the drivers I had no idea what to expect. I measured the Thiel Small Parameters and was stunned to find the impedance at resonance at 500 ohms. It actually created a 180 degree phase shift at that frequency of 30 Hz. This got me a bit panicky. I spent the rest of the evening making a transformer to largely eliminate the phase shift just in case it proves to be a problem and how couldn't it, right? Well, we still don't know the answers to any of this, it is too soon.  I just want an ace in my pocket to delete the phase shift just in case I need it. I then moved on to model the perfect box based on the Thiel Small parameters I had measured.  This was depressing because nothing was really modeling correctly.  The driver wanted to roll of at 300 Hz in most box types.  With some trickery it can go flat to 100 Hz, and if really stretched you might get it to hit 60Hz.  Or so I was being told by the computer models... Finally I got frustrated and just went and got a sealed box of around 3 cubic feet and shoved one of the drivers over the hole since it was too big to fit a normal 10 inch cut out.  I just needed to see if this thing was going to make any bass...  Sure as shit it did.  Not a lot but I could hear the potential and an uncanny speed. It was special despite being only from the back side of the cone.  This is when I knew I was going forward.  The Audio Gods told me it's not modeling well because it wants a real horn.  I got right on it.   When I finished the plans about 4 weeks later I started to build a pair.  This is when I found out my plans would have made my phone ring and clogged up my email...  so time to make some revisions.

Title: Re: Lii Platinum10 drivers Post by Steve Deckert on 04/15/23 at 17:08:41

Title: Re: Lii Platinum10 drivers Post by Steve Deckert on 04/15/23 at 17:11:24

Title: Re: Lii Platinum10 drivers Post by Steve Deckert on 04/15/23 at 17:26:02 I am still working on the plans for these horns. Of course I thought they were done when I started to actually build the cabinets and found out I wasn't really even close to done. So far I have 9 pages and 3 revisions done after more than 5 weeks. It's going to take at least one or two more to detail how to treat the inside surfaces.  Some areas will have felt, some will have foam, some will have diffusers. I have to wait until I actually do it, to know where everything will go. The process is simple, stick your head inside the box and chant. When you like the sound inside the box you will also like the sound outside the box. It is a 1/4 wave horn at 29.5 Hz, meaning it is a 1/2 wave at 60 and a full wave at 120Hz. I can make the building shake with my voice inside the box. Once these are in service in the listening room, I will make a web page for them and add them to our product line. We will sell the plans from the web page. Steve

Title: Re: Lii Platinum10 drivers Post by PDXDrew on 04/15/23 at 17:44:28 ohhhh yeah- a spark of excitement just ran through my veins. Looking good and can't wait to see the final results. I will pace an order as soon they are available. Thank you for posting!

Title: Re: Lii Platinum10 drivers Post by 4krow on 04/15/23 at 18:13:21 More horns? Oh no. I was getting to like the DNA2 with Scan Speak drivers! These do look quite a bit larger Steve.

Title: Re: Lii Platinum10 drivers Post by Palomino on 04/15/23 at 18:40:12 I think I’m gonna need to pick up a few more jigsaw blades. If these can produce something similar to the bass you get from those corner cabinets (imperial?) then this is an exciting build.

Title: Re: Lii Platinum10 drivers Post by JBzen on 04/16/23 at 10:39:00 Quote: It is a 1/4 wave horn at 29.5 Hz, meaning it is a 1/2 wave at 60 and a full wave at 120Hz. I can make the building shake with my voice inside the box. The efficiency of the P10s along with the wavelength of the horn might be problematic with amps prone to hum. Sarah might not be a good match for this enclosure and driver? Interesting the flair placed on the mouth bracing. I use to do the chants in enclosures when being built. That made me a little apprehensive when the boss came walking in doing such on my free time at work :-? He give me one of those glaring looks and I say "what" with a sholder shrug ;D When you get this together, I am going to make an appointment for a listening session and drop off the ZP3 for tape mods.

Title: Re: Lii Platinum10 drivers Post by MattyW on 04/17/23 at 00:28:04 I almost wish I'd waited now as I'm sure Steve's backloaded horms will sound absolutely spectacular.... Then again, my MLTL Platinum-10 speakers should sound fantastic also. I'm rather hoping it's pretty hard to get a Platinum-10 based speaker wrong.   :) I'll take delivery of mine this coming Sunday   ;D Will you be looking to get a pair of your PT-10 BLH into the hands of Stereophile magazing Steve? I'd really love to read up on that   8-)

Title: Re: Lii Platinum10 drivers Post by PDXDrew on 04/28/23 at 02:24:08 OK Matty- time to post seem pics. I saw your beautiful speakers on the WAM forum. They are gorgeous. Hopefully they are sounding as good as they look to you.

Title: Re: Lii Platinum10 drivers Post by Geno on 04/28/23 at 02:39:22 Drew, They are certainly gorgeous! I saw them on Facebook. I’ve been wondering myself, why he hasn’t posted pics on this forum yet. Prolly too busy listening 😎

Title: Re: Lii Platinum10 drivers Post by MattyW on 04/28/23 at 03:11:53 I'm now experiencing the best sound I've ever heard in my entire life and with less than 24 hours burn in. I do not even require a subwoofer any longer. Everything is just there.   ;D https://photos.app.goo.gl/JaVbNVAWLHptJCWt9

Title: Re: Lii Platinum10 drivers Post by PDXDrew on 04/28/23 at 03:59:31 Well done

Title: Re: Lii Platinum10 drivers Post by MattyW on 04/28/23 at 04:18:31 It's been somewhat mind altering just how good sound is through these speakers. Almost makes me wonder how it would sound if I got high like occaisonally happened in my younger days. How much would it mess with my head  ;)

Title: Re: Lii Platinum10 drivers Post by Palomino on 04/28/23 at 19:40:15 Hi Matty, Great looking speakers! It will be interesting to see how these sound in open baffle.  I think I can shoehorn them into to my existing C10 baffles with just a little trimming of the baffle.  My C10s are rear mounted and the mounting area is flared. Once I get a ship date, I will pull everything out of the existing baffles and start working on them. If they sound promising, I'll probably build new baffles.  Of course that's what I said about my current C10 baffles and here I am four or so years ago. As I mentioned, I have the bottom end well covered so I just need these from around 160-200Hz and up.

Title: Re: Lii Platinum10 drivers Post by MattyW on 04/30/23 at 02:49:56 I’d say they’ll be excellent for OB use so long as you’ve woofers helping for bass.  Thankyou regarding my speakers. They’re improving daily. :)

Title: Re: Lii Platinum10 drivers Post by Steve Deckert on 05/01/23 at 20:35:11 Matty, those look great!  Interestingly they are about the same size! The horns are nearly finished now.. just waiting for paint.  We scheduled a group listening session with Bob, Randy and several extended members of the Decware family this past weekend and all agree the project is a hit.  Actually the comments were so over the top you wouldn't believe me if I told you.  Some refused to go back in for fear of ruining their audio hobby for life. Here is a short video of them playing in my wood shop.   https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uFy5O9XQ2jZD6WHd4Tna_YWTt-WAVCds/view?usp=sharing Recommend you download it and then play it to hear the actual recording rather than use google video player that pops up which will compress it. The plans are in revision 5 and should be available soon. Steve

Title: Re: Lii Platinum10 drivers Post by MattyW on 05/02/23 at 00:27:39 This looks and sounds fantastic. Thanks for sharing Steve. :) What hardware did you use to record it? I always struggle to get decent system recordings. Cheers Matt

Title: Re: Lii Platinum10 drivers Post by Steve Deckert on 05/02/23 at 00:34:41 Galaxy S9 phone.  It is what I use for 99% of all the videos on this channel.  That way the viewers have somewhat of a common frame of reference since they can record their own stereo playing the same tracks and upload it to YouTube for a direct comparison. Steve

Title: Re: Lii Platinum10 drivers Post by johnnycopy on 05/02/23 at 06:28:34 Steve, Maybe I have missed your comments elsewhere but what are your thoughts of the just completed platinum box compared to origins, and compared to your other favorite models including your big OB’s? Thanks in advance. John

Title: Re: Lii Platinum10 drivers Post by MattyW on 05/02/23 at 21:37:09 It would be interesting to know how it compares with the Silver-10 based Origin speakers as a baseline as that’s arguably Lii’s best known ready made speaker.  :)

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/12/23 at 03:01:04 Everything is just glued and clamped.  There are only a couple pin nails to keep things from sliding while being clamped.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/12/23 at 03:07:55 The braces are curved with holes to break up the standing waves that otherwise occur between parallel surfaces. The slotted things are diffusers, they deal with high frequencies but also stabilize bass frequencies by keeping the air pressure from sliding up or down on the rear panel.  The size diffusers carry the highest amount of energy.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/12/23 at 03:12:43 Installing the side diffusers. Testing the horizontal brace location...  This was eliminated in favor of the the support that comes from the wings that will be bolted onto the sides. The white is an alkyd high solids primer.  It penetrates deep and turns into a rock.  Takes soft MDF and makes it hard.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/12/23 at 03:20:21 Pre-drilling the holes for the wings so I can make it hard with the white paint.  The interior panels are all sealed with two coats of clear sanding sealer. This is the wing. Two for each speaker. The removable baffle is made from cabinet grade plywood.  The plans under the baffle are showing the blade angles on your table saw to cut each panel.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Kamran on 05/12/23 at 03:31:23 Amazing stuff Steve—thanks for sharing the build!

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/12/23 at 03:54:23 Yes, I got Bob Ziegler involved!  We spent a good hour just getting the threaded inserts aligned.  It's a heavy driver all bolted into the 12 inch baffle so it was nice to have an extra set of hands holding the bottom as it was being tipped into place. Now here is a story about what happened with the Audio Gods...   It starts with a round pillow! I have at least four of these in my wood shop because the wind keeps blowing them out of the grandkids treehouse into the yard where they kill circles in the grass.  I found they are great in the shop because they are soft and level and firm enough to hold projects on without scratching anything. Inside this horn is a pie shape just below the driver that when chanted into makes a horrible droning sound, and at resonance the sound continues for a few dozen milliseconds after you stop chanting.  The first time I heard this I felt panic.  Did I just make something for the bond fire?  You can't have sound like that inside the box with a cone this thin!  Crap. I started having visions of stuffing the box with wool, and worried that the sound might be the horn flare itself!  Dread... The the Audio Gods showed up and made sure that when I looked around for something to shove in that cavity that the pillow would be right there.  A perfect fit, and by itself it MORE than fixed it.  I seemed miraculous at the time, and my brain wasn't even processing it fully yet.  So simple... yet a wide band linear diaphragmatic absorber was just created and I missed it. I'm sure it bummed them out when I ordered $187 worth of 1/2 inch wool to line the inside of the box with.  Also some foam that would be slicker to put near the throat of the horn. While Bob was there I installed the felt in one of the horns and the foam and stuck my head in the cabinet and was satisfied that it was working, but I also remember the sound with the pillow days earlier.  So the little voice suggested an A/B test.  I relayed their wishes to Bob.  We agreed and put the Pillow in one cabinet and the fancy felt/foam job in the other and then tested the cabinets with the drivers installed on music. The 1/2 inch thick ultra dense wool was removed as it was found to distort the sound at all volumes.  By comparison it sounded garbled.  It was hard to keep your ear 6 inches away from the cone, while the pillow side was crystal clear and it was easy to stand there indefinitely at that same distance. During the process of getting the threaded fasteners aligned I realized that it was not fun taking the drivers in and out and thought we should just add the felt to the other cabinet and skip the A/B tests, because obviously the felt would win anyway.  I thought it, but I never spoke it.  Then I realized it was father Murphy trying to trip me up using laziness and pressure to win a bet with the Audio Gods. I'm going to admit it wasn't easy to resist but I did, and thankfully so because the sound of this speaker would have been ruined and we would have never known. The Felt was absorbing some frequencies and not others.  As well it was deaccelerating the air slowing down the reflex and doing it differently at different frequencies.  This was causing what I would have to call 'dynamic smearing' where the timing was off. Here you can see the pillow installed. It sets at an angle just below the 10 inch driver.  The four corners allow instantaneous air movement between the two spaces created by the pillow.  This keeps the reflex speed at max, unlike the heavy wool that was simply lining all the walls. The fleece on top of the 3 inch foam pillow creates just the right surface for voice, way better than just bare foam.  The heavy wool now gone allowed me to place some ultra thin green crafting felt in critical places.  It won't create too much drag on the air, but will delete the sound of MDF in the midrange.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Brian on 05/12/23 at 04:04:52 A wonderful story of the technical details. Thank you, Steve! That pillow case really threw me. I thought it was a block of wood. Brian

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/12/23 at 04:06:50 Looking up instead of down at the pillow, we see the top of the interior chamber and the horn throat which is the slot on the left side of the image. Since the closer we get to the slot, the faster the air flow / higher the air pressure and this is what feeds the horn flare.  We do not want to slow it down, but this is what the speaker cone sees, so we installed two pieces of thin craft foam, which is slicker than craft felt, to kill the MDF sound that would otherwise affect the midrange.  This stops before the slot. I have to say this is a real achievement for me when it comes to interior box design / tuning.  Even the HDT wasn't this good.  By that I mean it is very satisfying to have no echo, no speed reduction and nearly perfect intelligibility inside a speaker box.  Usually the best you can hope for is a muffled sound without sharp reflections. I know this is the most boring part of the speaker design, and if I put it in the plans most will ignore, but this is next to getting the angles right, the most important part.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/12/23 at 04:14:02 Painting them with 3 coats of hotrod black single-stage urethane after two coats of acrylic lacquer black primer surfacer.  That part sucked because I know what it would be like in a paint booth vs. a wood shop.  But I got through after several days. Installing the wings...

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/12/23 at 04:20:35 Installing binding posts The drivers Yes, you can have them come out the rear, but I'm a purist and the internal wire is shorter this way.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/12/23 at 04:52:21 Now the real listening begins... click to enlarge The sound so far is what I would consider in the forbidden zone.  The speaker is accurately named. When it gets burned in a touch more I will make videos of it.  Meanwhile I am working on the web page for it now.  It has already been licensed to Lii Song for production in world markets and we will be making it for anyone who want to drive to Decware in East Peoria IL and pick them up.  This speaker is going to be a game changer. My lovely wife and the brains behind Decware is this speakers best advocate.  She has never gotten so excited about a speaker before despite the staggering performance of our designs going back 30 years...  So what is it?  Well, yes, she can hear.  She is still mad at me for that.  But the reason is that we just returned from AXPONA 2023 where we listened to 6 figure audio gear for two days and didn't hear anything this good.  Nothing has this combination of range coherency and speed. We can build these in a reasonable timeframe, usually within 90 days, and the cost is still completely unknown.  My pair is the lowest priced version that we can make being painted black, but Lii Song will be making them in a piano factory from hardwoods which promises to be eye popping and expensive. The bass from these speakers is insanely deep tight clean fast.  The speaker can just stop and hang notes leaving you breathless.   I am driving them with the SE84UFO25 being driven by the May Audio Dac and at 103dB I haven't even gotten the amps turned past half way up yet.  All day today at the shop everyone kept coming in the listening room to hear the speakers, they were a big distraction. This leads me to my final story... because father Murphy lost the earlier bet about the pillow there had to be revenge.  So last night when I got them together in the room I had to re-arrange the entire listening room and all the electronics.  Despite the streamer being wireless, it decided not to work after being moved 20 feet and I was unable to listen to the speakers.  After hours of dicking with it, I decided to just hook up the vinyl rig that I had just torn completely down and moved. Apparently I bumped the plinth for the tonearm and lost the adjustment, and who knows, I may have hooked up something wrong, but I got a Tom Scott record from the 1970's and the speakers sounded so bad I had to check to see if they were wired out of phase.  I sat there in disbelief at what I was hearing.  Almost no bass at all.  I forced it on myself for 2 hours I guess waiting for the joke to be over and it didn't happen so I went to bed and laid awake all night.    Thankfully, this morning I changed streamers and got everything online and the sound was glorious. So now as I said, the real listening begins.  Two watts from a Zen Triode amp is just crushing it.  The dynamics are hard to describe.  Nothing at the AXPONA had this hit, and we are talking big big big solid states amps and equally and larger speakers.  It's not even that loud, it just sounds like it because of the dynamics and presence.  Two things that normally only come with pressure. I'm willingly going to wreck my head because I already have the speakers and there would never be a reason to remove them. Steve : )

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/12/23 at 05:13:50 . Actually my heads been wrecked for a long time.  The closest I ever got to this sound was from my Acoustat Monitors.  They are full range electrostats with the "cone" area equal to eight 15 inch drivers per side with the mass of a few tweeters.  The panels are directly driven by servo charged tube amps where the plates of the high voltage tubes put 5KV directly on the panel without an interface making them unlike every other popular electrostatic speaker.  These are 20Hz to 20kHz panels that are 4 feet wide and 5 feet tall with four 5 degree facets but they were still real head vise speakers and even after weeks of placement adjustments they never sounded perfect because the amplifiers weren't good enough.  Well, not really but kinda really.  I figured some day I would build some tube amps for these electrostatics and use them again.  Now I have the speed, but also the range and the sound is way better because the amp is way better.  The dynamics are more visceral and the bass depth is more tangible, less oversized and diffused.  And I'm doing it with a single amp that is only 2 watts / channel and it gets to the same volume as the Acoustats.  Best of all the head vise effect is by comparison -- gone.  These cabinets completely disappear and I am only sitting less than 8 feet away from them. It's hard to believe what I am hearing right now compared to this time last night...  Proof that miracles can happen because I laid awake all night thinking it would take one to get the sound I wanted and now I sit here easily able to say I've not heard better, and this is still only from a 2 watt amplifier.  I'm playing disco music, jazz, classical, vocals, electronica, trance, classic rock.  The pin point dynamics and the way everything is separated out is at a new level for me in all the things I've heard in my 50 years of hifi. Even at normal listen levels I can feel the bass in the concrete everywhere in the building.  Also the lowest and the fastest bass I've ever heard.  It can start moving the whole building and then just stop and the building itself freezes until it is released and OK'd to finish moving.  It's freaky frikin fast bass and it moves from top to bottom with zero bloat.  There is zero mid bass bloat.  It's like listening the Zen Master Series larger baffle (model ZF15L) with an octave lower bass, and even great speed and way more neutrality.  The sound is perfectly neutral.  It energized the room in a way only large horns can.  This is even better than the full size imperial horns because it's faster and at 1/3 the width the standing waves in the room are reduced by 2/3rds and the bass is increased by the same amount. Steve

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Kamran on 05/12/23 at 05:18:47 Wow!

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Dominick on 05/12/23 at 05:37:16 Steve…thanks for the detailed update on this project. Congratulations….this is one badass speaker!!  Intimidating is an understatement!!  I think I’m going to need to coax the wife to allow me to burn some vacation time to attend this years Decfest.   At my last Decfest…I can still remember listening to Yello’s Takla Makan through the Imperials sitting in the main chair and it blew my doors off!!  I can only imagine what this song would sound like through the new Headwreckers!!  Please post some video clips soon. Dom

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/12/23 at 05:59:29 Well it's midnight and I just listened to Sophia Hunger on this system and I'll never be the same.  Seriously I wasn't prepared for this.  Holy crap. May as well sell all the other speakers in the room.  Even the house speakers peed themselves a little bit.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by JBzen on 05/12/23 at 12:17:51 Maybe you will feel better this morning after some sleep Steve. We seem to share the same problem with anxiety when things are not right and/or very perplexing in our world. Valium works for me in the times of sleeplessness. Don't really like the side effects but it is better than the hopelessness feeling that develops with lack of sleep. The Headwreckers will fit in my scheme :-? Maybe? The width is perfect but the depth might interfere with the theater sound and view. Height will tower impressively in the Charoit for sure. Nice work! John

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by JBzen on 05/12/23 at 13:40:22 Your first post here mentions the phase inversion at 30hz. Guess this will play well with amps that have a tendency to hum? No transformer needed?

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Tooppy on 05/12/23 at 15:53:37 Are you going to sell them with the pillows in ?  :D

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Geno on 05/12/23 at 16:28:10 Awesome Steve! Did your pre-design anticipate the wings?  Or did you listen first, and decide you needed to try something different? Or is this more for aesthetics? Or both looks and sound? Those of us that started our open baffle journey with Mr. Randy's baffles, learned the magic of the curve, so really wondering if that played into your decision to do this? Best, Geno

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/12/23 at 21:01:10 The phase shift at 30 Hz was measured with the speaker in free air.  I don't know what it measures in the cabinet yet.   I wouldn't waste my time on a speaker with a hole in the resulting frequency response which is why I designed a transformer for the driver just in case. So far am not hearing any holes in the bass response. The wings were designed at the same time as the speaker.  They are optional.  The purpose is to project sound similar to the way the larger open baffles do.  It adds density to the midrange.   Yes, the pillows are part of the speaker.  They are not optional. I stayed up most of the night listening to these.  I had to take today off and sleep.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Bottlehead on 05/13/23 at 02:00:40 Hey Steve, Another great design. I'm envisioning a piano hinge to fold the wings back out of the way when not in use. (Just for aesthetics). Possibility? Or too much danger of unwanted resonance? Randy

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Kamran on 05/13/23 at 02:20:51 Quote: May as well sell all the other speakers in the room.  Even the house speakers peed themselves a little bit. That speaks volumes (no pun intended).

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by johnnycopy on 05/13/23 at 02:47:30 Steve, I would like your comparison of this new pair vs the origin 10 speaker that Lii sells. Thanks John

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Dana on 05/13/23 at 22:22:59 With the wings it reminds me of the Voigt pipe Speakers but the horn is folded so it isn't as tall.   https://fredt300b.smugmug.com/Hobbies/Building-the-Voigt-Pipes/

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by PDXDrew on 05/14/23 at 02:03:27 Thank you very much Steve for taking the time out of your already busy schedule to squeezing out ever once of performance from these remarkable drivers. I'm amazed at how great they sound in the S10 cabinets. Can't wait to get them in your design. I love the contrast of the black cabinets with these drivers. Makes them really pop.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/14/23 at 05:02:02 Today I got up and wrestled with the pool liner.  After I finally got it out I had to put a new bottom in the pool.  Several trips to town for stuff, rain, brutal.  The only thing that doesn't hurt right now is my eyeballs. So I'm having a couple beers to kill the pain and taking the opportunity to listen more to these speakers. So far all I have heard them on in this room is my UFO25, and only turned up to 1:30 on the dial. That's plenty loud, in fact 10:30 would be the normal listening level with these speakers in my largish room. Tonight I decided to hear some of my reference tracks for slam that I used in the wood shop which is when the name 'Headwrecker' was coined. I wanted to see what these things sounded like turned up, like we played them in the wood shop, but that was a push-pull amp with 3 to 5 times the power...  Anyway I decided to do what any normal man would do in this situation and turned up the dial until the VR tubes in the back and or the meters started to flinch. I got to 3:00 on the dial and it was so loud I stopped.  The amp was not clipping, I could not believe it.  It was as loud or louder than I remember in the wood shop, and this room is much larger and a lot deader... So I listened to this particular track and had a brand new thought that I've never had before... The slam and the speed at which the notes stop is so over the top, I've never heard anything do it this well before. It actually made me realize with amazement that air is really fast! That those notes could leave that cone and hit my chest that fast without any softening or spongy effect from the 9 foot air cushion was really just astounding. The uncanny thing about these speakers, and this was true in the wood shop too, is that at high SPL, the clarity is unheard of. This goes back to the felt thing and the discord that came with it. The clarity from top the bottom on this is so unreal that you can play music 10dB (twice as loud) without shorting out your brain because your ears actually like it. No other speaker has this insane density throughout the midrange and top end.  It makes tweeters sound silly, like BB's. The highs on these speakers are like 50 caliber rounds compared to BB's. These speakers, if you could record it, could easily reproduce a 50 caliber round shot inside a building. After it went off, you would look at your chest to make sure you weren't hit. That is the kind of realism from a density and dynamics and speed perspective that these speakers are achieving. So yea, they actually made me ponder how fast air actually is. It was faster than I thought. That was the conclusion, after listening to sounds for 62 years., most of it audiophile grade.  Also the fact that what I am experiencing is through a 2.3 watt Zen Triode Amplifier is just about impossible to believe.  The Zen TORII mono's on the house speakers only graze the boundary of what these speakers are doing with 30 times less power. Never before has my bell been ringed this hard or my chest thumped this crisply --  and please understand that Decware started out life in the 1990's as a pro audio company that designed, built and installed sound systems in night clubs.  We used Imperial horns, several of them in each club.  We could make you car vibrate just driving by the club on main street.   With all that, and hundreds of IASCA winning car audio systems that I designed prior to the pro audio business, and the 30 years of DECWARE that you know of -- making low power amplification... I have a reputation for serious bass which means good bass and I can safely say that I have never heard anything hit like this. It's ear candy. You might think with millions of watts and a line array of woofers and subs that you can achieve similar results, but that's because you've not heard this, so we'll give you benefit of the doubt until you come over and listen to it in person.  You can't make that many voice coils work together with this kind of resolution, it's impossible. So again, with all this experience and bass reference it was never anywhere near this fast. And speed was its hallmark. But speed is relative. The speed is the key.  These speakers are a lesson from the Audio Gods.  It will be a real thrill to share them with audio community.   Steve

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/14/23 at 05:20:41 Noise floor in the room is 36dB A weighted.  Listening level in the chair is 95dB.  I was shocked because it feels like well over 100dB.  I would have guessed 102dB.  The fact that a Zen amp is doing this is just warping my head.  God, what's going to happen with bigger amps! These speakers are like the ZMF flagship planar headphones for the entire room.  Headphones is the only thing that has this speed. But dynamics, no.  You thought it was dynamic, but no.  You have to come over and feel it pummel you chest while your ears are at the same time taking in a breath of fresh air, with zero fatigue or compression.  I'd have to say it is the lowest distortion high SPL sound I have heard.  Even the MBL at AXPONA didn't do this, although it gave it one hell of a shot.  If this was a baseball bat, that was a baseball bat wrapped in felt. Going to be another long night I can already tell...  If I go down my organ music rabbit hole with these speakers it will be another all nighter... Hey you only live once. Steve

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/14/23 at 05:54:57 Sorry I know this is droning on and on, but I have to capture it as it happens.  I am listening to 'Send me an Angel' on this same album and this is really the epitome of heavy / hard metal music.  It is so dense with stuff that 99% of the time when I hear music like this I bail out and in a damn hurry because the horizontal headroom disappears. Tonight I am listening to this through the UFO25 which has been processed by Cryotone, and connected directly the HOLO Audio MAY dac and I have never heard music this 'busy' sound this clear.  I did not know it was possible.  Until right now, I was bias against this music because I am allergic to homogenization.  I am so stunned that I feel like I just uncovered a whole new universe of sound.  It's like going from the Hubble to the James Web and finding out you live inside a black hole. God I love this hobby and being able to share it with all of you is my Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Dominick on 05/14/23 at 06:59:04 Steve…something weird just happened with my last post that it showed up on your post.   Anyway….just wanted to say that I played the Magic Mushroom song at work in my Tahoe and it’s one killer track!  Please post your impressions and track listing  with the organ music you play.  I love listening to pipe organ music on my system.  It’s like a freight train running through your heart.  I can’t imagine what it must sound like through the Lil Headwrecker horns.   Dom

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by JBzen on 05/14/23 at 10:58:08 That's it! I had enough! I will be out this summer to hear this horn set! Your enthusiasm is sinking into my psychic. My observations of this new driver and your box magic is placing my soul at the gates of heaven waning admission. That said, the horns will fit well in the Chariot's theme ;) John

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by MattyW on 05/14/23 at 13:56:47 I sounds like you’ve gotten results far beyond my massive bass reflex cabs Steve. Congratulations on your build. :)

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by BlackBess on 05/14/23 at 18:00:38 Wow, this really has me thinking. And that’s the problem because I’m living proof of the adage, if you don’t think too good, don’t think too much. After placing my order with Sarah for a Sarah & the DNA2 back in August, I’m anticipating a late summer delivery on the speakers. Is that speaker still something relevant or does this new design make it obsolete? Because of the wait time for your amps, I’ve got a little 2a3 amp coming shortly to keep the DNA2’s company for the next couple of years. So there’s my dilemma, I’m really going to want another set of speakers in the future. What are the dimensions of the Headwreckers? How about boxed dimensions? I’ve loaded a pair of boxed Klipsch Forte IV in my Audi avant(station wagon) before, but I’m wondering about these. So I’m following this thread with great interest. I may need guidance on that matter,  having lesser speakers urinating uncontrollably will be a problem.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by MattyW on 05/15/23 at 00:43:13 Given the incredible results you've achieved with these speakers Steve, will you be looking to see if Stereophile are interested in reviewing these? It really sounds like these can compete with the best sounding speakers on the planet and their high efficiency makes them perfect for your amps, or Nelson Pass' First Watt amps for those who prefer solid state.  :D

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Brian on 05/15/23 at 06:40:15 Thank you, Steve for sharing your hobby with us! I like the appearance of the wings. The circle against the rectangle really pleases me. Brian

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/16/23 at 17:44:38 ' Quote: Given the incredible results you've achieved with these speakers Steve, will you be looking to see if Stereophile are interested in reviewing these? It really sounds like these can compete with the best sounding speakers on the planet and their high efficiency makes them perfect for your amps, or Nelson Pass' First Watt amps for those who prefer solid state.  :D My initial intension with these speakers is to provide Lii Song with a great cabinet for their new PT-10 driver, and to make the plans available to the DIY market.  Additionally, for those who want them in high performance black and are willing to drive to Decware to pick them up, we will gladly build them for you to match my pair exactly. If we had a loading dock we could palletize and fright them to customers, but right now it is not an option so sending a pair out for review can't happen.   The size of these are 14 x 28 x 60 inches and 140lbs each.  A pickup truck or a van is likely the only option as far as vehicle types go.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/16/23 at 22:27:23 Just some general where we're at with this...   Best speaker I've heard on electronic music played loud after dark.  No question.  Everything else is still pending. Unlike many highly resolute speakers that get sharp sounding if you turn them up, these drivers are not like that, at least not in this horn which is the only cabinet I have tried.  This combination sounds sharper at low volumes than it does at high volumes.  In other words, as you give it gas, the midrange weight and midbass get really well developed and the overall top to bottom balance becomes perfection. I am only using the SE84UFO25 to test it, which with its resolution is kind of a worse case scenario.  These speakers may well behave completely different on our other amps, and we'll get to that when the time comes.  So after around a week of listening at lower to normal volumes I can confirm that where I have them placed in my room that they could sound warmer.  Again, they sound warm when turned up.  But we don't always listen loud, so today I have introduced the CSP325 matching preamp to the system and we'll see how that changes things. I want to get 500 hours on the drivers before I take any of this too seriously. This development process is going to take weeks/months so I wouldn't worry about getting a pair until we have the full report and you know what the final analysis is.  The speakers have to be tried in different locations and with different amps, with and without the transformer I designed and of course be fully burned in. I'll keep you posted. : ) Steve

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by 4krow on 05/17/23 at 00:28:22 Steve, When something hits you right and then you can just sit back and listen,,, at least until you want to hear how some other stuff sounds on it. We are not running in circles with this love, we just make sharp turns every so often. Been doing that with the DNA2 and it is a blast.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by JBzen on 05/17/23 at 12:29:09 When we eventually work our way to your neck of the woods, I intend to pack the ZP3(tape mod), CSP2+( possibly 25th upgrade), and SE84 to try on the horns. Wondering if a change of tubes will help with the sharpness? Or a SE84UFO25 without the cryo treatment. Too much of one thing can can tilt the apple cart. Please do keep us informed [smiley=dankk2.gif] John

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by BlackBess on 05/17/23 at 22:51:42 I don’t think I’m worrying too hard now. I’m betting the development process will continue until you get the “mother-in-laws”(how’s that for nickname) singing as sweetly at 1/8th watt as 2.3 where they kick serious asparagus! And of course make nice- nice with the SEWE300B. Plus ultra dude, plus ultra

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/21/23 at 02:28:56 UPDATE 5/20/23 I have been listening to the speakers all week on the Sarah300B using the Chinese output tubes.  The sound is pretty spectacular.  The leaner mid-bass at low volume that I talked about is still gone.  Just doesn't happen on this amp.  This got me to wondering why... which got me to wondering about that 500ohm peak at resonance that we measured in the PT-10 driver.  Could it be the way the two amps handle that, or is it just the more body that the Sarah 300B amp has going in that makes the difference? This of course also got me to thinking about bass response.  Since placing them in the listening room, the room response is different that with the other speakers.  The bass wave is so large that the standing wave pattern is also large.  That means that there will be places in your room with no bass that will move around as the frequencies change. It's time to measure what is happening in the room from these speakers in the bass response.  This is really the first thing we need to know when setting up speakers in a room... where to place them and where to place the listening chair so that we hear all of the bass. The way I like to do this is not to use the computer REW to measure the room, but instead I like to play test tones across the speakers and walk around in the room so I can hear where the tone is prominent and where the tone is weak. To do that I just used sticky notes, one for each frequency.  We start at 100Hz, drop to 60Hz, 50Hz, 40Hz and 30Hz. I drew an X where there was bass and and O where there was not to get a feel for what is happening in the space. What I learned is that I need to move the listening chair forward about another foot to stay out of a 40Hz bass hole where you don't hear any bass at that frequency.   Additionally I wanted to see if my gizmo that I created to nearly eliminate the phase shift actually did anything and this would be concrete proof if it did or didn't. So if you study the postIT notes, you will notice at the bottom there are small stars below the circles.  Remember the circles indicate no bass. After installing the network that fixes the phase shift at 30Hz, the bass returned to the rear of the room at every frequency.  The square represents my listening chair and the two lines on the right hand wall represent the door opening that does not exist on the left hand wall. I want to see what happens when I install the network to eliminate the phase shift at 30Hz.  How will it effect where the bass is in the room?

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/21/23 at 02:30:33 So lets talk about the network...   It uses a transformer in parallel with the driver so it is not in the direct signal path. The impedance is such that you can't hear anything happen when you insert it... not until you install the 10K 5W resistor on the high voltage side of the transformer.  Even then it is a barely detectable change.  The idea here is that we don't want to molest the sound with some overcomplicated crossover that is going to tank the transparency. This is an air-gapped wide bandwidth SET transformer for those DIY readers.  And for what it's worth the 10K resistor could be made adjustable. On/off/variable from 10K to maybe 5K.  What would happen is the top end would begin to drop as well as the efficiency and the effect will also depend on the amplifier used.  It drops to around 2 ohms or so at 20Hz, but music doesn't live there so unless you're playing 20Hz test tones and your amp can't handle that... I usually like to put the 10K on a switch at a minimum so I can hear what it does.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/21/23 at 02:54:15 This is the impedance and phase shift response for the PT-10 driver that I measured prior to starting this project which caused the concern about this drivers ability to have any bass at all in a regular box. click to enlarge The blue line is the impedance peaking at 500 ohms at 30Hz.  The red line is the phase angle flipping 180 degrees at 30Hz.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/21/23 at 02:59:46 This is what happens with above network installed.  The impedance peak drops to 15 ohms and the phase shift is basically eliminated.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/21/23 at 03:05:53 Here is room at 100Hz.  The horns (black rectangles toed in) are to scale.  There are two openings in the room. The purple stars are bass.  The blue circles are no/weak bass.  The red stars are bass that appeared after installing the network. Interestingly, I don't care if there is bass in the back of the room where I don't sit. At higher SPL the sound might be cleaner without all that energy on the rear walls vibrating everything. Who knows...  So the merits of this network in my 17 x 27 room are meaningless in how it affects the bass response that I will be hearing from the chair.  It will however have an affect on the overall sound and imaging so I will spend time with it turned on and off over the next several weeks to see what I like or dislike about it.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/21/23 at 03:06:15 Here is the room at 60Hz.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/21/23 at 03:06:38 Here is the room at 50Hz.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/21/23 at 03:07:34 Here is the room at 40Hz. I didn't save 30Hz because while it was even around the entire boarder of the room there wasn't enough of it anywhere near the center to really contribute to the music.  This is typical of low bass from large horns in smaller rooms. CONCLUSIONS SO FAR: As far as the the bass response from a listening standpoint, I have found it to be completely linear sounding from top to bottom and ultra clean with unrelentless amounts of it outside the listening room in the adjacent spaces.  In that space outside the room we would have to double the size of the purple stars.  This is exactly how the Imperial horns behave -- they like large rooms.  If you have a small room and like really low bass get smaller speakers and a tiny sub. Anyway, as suspected getting below 30Hz from giant horns at distance of 10 feet away is a pipe dream, but 40Hz really kicks some serious ass and I just have to remember to position my chair a tad closer rather than farther when listening to these speakers. THE DIFFERENCE IN AMPS I wish I had my Cryotone 300B tubes, or the Western Electric to really see what the bass is like on the Sarah 300B.  No worries, there is no shortage of it with the Chinese tubes we selected, but they aren't as fast and with this speaker it becomes obvious whereas with basically every other speaker in the room it is easily missed.  So far with hearing these tubes the UFO25 was faster and cleaner and tighter but the Sarah had more body and weight with some goosebump timbers and trails that make it hard to choose. SOUND STAGE By turning off the 10K load and leaving the high voltage secondary as an unresolved potential, it seems like something magical is happening to the sound compared to removing the network completely.  I noticed using the Sarah 300B that I got sound to come closer to my face than any other speaker ever dare go.  It felt like about 3 feet.  The fascinating part is that the depth of the stage went back at least that much or more at the same time.  This is unusual.  Typically when a speaker gets in your face, there is little or no depth.  This would have to be technically more accurate than most of the speakers I've heard including our own when it comes to a life size sound stage. So despite sitting the same 8 feet or so as I do from all my speakers on this arc, these sounded like they were twice as big as they are and twice as high and twice as close and twice as far. SPEED Dynamically speaking it's like very high end headphones for your entire room except you have a deep sound stage and feel the music coming out of the floor into your body.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/21/23 at 03:56:00

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by BlackBess on 05/21/23 at 13:03:25 Go team Decware! It seems to me that with continued R&D, the “Mother-in-laws” WILL have have some of the presence & total awesomeness of Lois F. Maybe my comparison is a stretch because she didn’t scale 140lbs. & her bass was on the weak side, but otherwise somebody that would enrich the life of those in “earshot”.  After these are fully sussed out I don’t see how I won’t be traveling to East Peoria to darken your listening room for a demo.  Maybe I’ll have scored a pair of ER300B-MO’s by then to roll into a SEWE300B along with some Wathen & WE’s if you don’t have any laying around. This development is making my extended wait for your SEWE300B seem so much more satisfying. Again, go team Decware go!!

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/22/23 at 01:46:41 https://youtu.be/hcoCX_jgj7I Above is a link to the construction and testing video.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/23/23 at 02:12:51 IMPORTANT UPDATE I have decided the original network to deal with the phase shift makes such a small difference it probably isn't worth messing with.  Since I am not worried about the extra bass on the rear wall it has no effect on my room.  It does take a tiny edge off the upper midrange, I would call it glare, but again it's so subtle. I have decided to change how the network functions and make it like our original Gizmo that I used with Lowther and similar full-range drivers. Why not use it to improve the sound instead of fix something you can't hear.  This way it would be possible to just dial in the presence you want without having crossover parts / notch filters in the signal path. As I get more serious listening time on these speakers there is just a touch of something in the upper midrange I don't always like.  I want to figure it out organically vs. measure the driver's response.  Measuring the response will instantly poison my ears and lead me down the wrong paths to notch filters or who knows what. It is important to fall in love with the speaker before I measure it.   On the PT-10 driver construction the metal is so thick that its resonance is like a big tweeter.  When I first tested this driver face down into a sealed box, there were highs up to 5K standing on the magnet and you could hear it everywhere in the room.  It was like our Radial driver.  So I think it should have a thick sock of 1/2 inch felt to damp it out.  I will try it to see if it works.  Meanwhile I want to chase the problem from another more esoteric angle, which is the following take on the previous network. This is very similar to a device I made and sold for crossoverless single drivers called the 'Gizmo'. This model is actually better in that it has less loss and a wider more linear range of adjustment. The initial listing results are very promising. For those wondering how this works, the "coil" between the positive post of the driver and the amplifier is only there as much as you want it to be. The primary windings when shorted causes that secondary coil to disappear until such a point where it acts nearly like a wire.  The magnetic coupling of the air-gapped transformer is what makes this work and the 10K 2W linear pot is what makes it adjustable. The beauty of this approach is that it can have a profound effect on the balance without affecting the speed or dynamics. It's all done with magnetism rather than capacitors, resistors and coils.  When the primary is opened completely the secondary drops the output of the speaker to just a bass heavy whisper.  As soon as you short the primary the magnetic field created acts like a switch that turns the speaker back on.  When you make it adjustable via the 10K control, you are adjusting the magnetic field which is responsible for conducting the music you hear.  You really can't buy expensive enough crossover parts to have this kind of transparency and super low loss. In all actuality one of the big reasons vinyl and tape sound they way they do is the magnetic coupling happening inside the cartridge or tape head.  Listening to these speakers using this gizmo I would say it has removed all the glare, sharpness, ringing and given it an analogue feel with far bolder dynamics and superior overall balance not to mention imaging and sound stage.  Coincidence?

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/23/23 at 03:26:36 What I am hearing with this in place has 100% fixed anything that was causing me puzzlement.  It doesn't sound like the same speaker.  Same 2 watts, deleted the preamp just to reset and now at low to modest volume there is at least twice as much weight with pristine balance from top to bottom.  Can't find a single bad note in it, and spatially it is just numbing the difference this has made... I'm pretty stoked.  I should have known it might take something like this but we're there.  The 2 watt amp sounds like it has giant balls and without being turned up like before.  See we have changed the dynamic of that game.  We don't want to have to hunt for amps that the speaker likes... I really am stunned at what I'm hearing.  It's so deep and delicious and magical.  The liquidity is insane and compared to earlier today where it was comparatively like a sharp cold knife. Just for kicks today when it was sounding lean at lower volumes, I used Roon to EQ it just to see what it would take to make it sound more balanced, and it was a 12dB increase in low end, and a 6 dB notch in the upper mids.  Sadly while it fixes the balance, it seems to ruin the sound going through the DSP in the computer prior to sending it to the DAC, so I've never been able to use it, or any other digital EQ that I've ever tried, which are a lot of them. What really blows my mind about all this is that I am listening to test leads with thin crappie wire to test this circuit and that alone should completely RUIN the sound, so with that huge handicap in place this has to make everything better and boy does it.  I am still just stunned. Every track that comes on is jarringly good now compared to before.  It sounds like tape. It defies logic, that it now sounds so full and beautiful and real with that 'there there' thing going on that begs not to be ignored. How is this possible. I am now listening to Time out of mind and it sounds perfect.  It sounded pretty off earlier today. Now there is unbelievable weight that was absent this afternoon.  This is the weight that you expect when you have a cabinet this size, and it would have been a real shame if the only way people could experience this large horn was to play it loud. Holy crap it's good now...  to me at this normal listening volume on the UFO25 the difference is 300% better on all counts.  Simply unbelievable.   So I can't wait to install it without the cheesy wire and wrap that magnet at the same time.  It will no longer have to be turned up loud to wreck your head, it will just wreck your head because it sounds too good.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by PDXDrew on 05/23/23 at 04:33:15 You already have over 3k views on your Youtube video. Amazing. Can't wait to get my drivers installed in these cabinets. I'll be dreaming about it until I do,

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Tooppy on 05/23/23 at 06:40:49 Would you sell this gitzmo?

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by PDXDrew on 05/23/23 at 18:42:16 +1 on buying a Gizmo. I would place my order today.   ;D

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/23/23 at 19:26:24 We will be selling this device, yes.  It will be called the GIZMO2.  The original Gizmos were in a plastic box, one per speaker, and had no bypass switch option and were using non-UFO transformers.  This time I am combining everything into one high quality black steel box to match our other magic black boxes.  I built the production sample today.  So when time allows, I will update the website and discontinue the original Gizmo, and replace it with this newer model.   I will post pictures of it shortly. Steve

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/23/23 at 20:27:47 It's all silver/teflon wired.  The bypass switch will be optional.  When the control is fully clockwise it is at 1% effect and when fully counter-clockwise is at 10% effect.  Many will find it hard to hear the difference between 1% and 0%, so this is why the bypass switch will be optional.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by johnnycopy on 05/23/23 at 21:49:21 Steve,  I can you confirm if the gizmo2 would have similar positive effects on the bass, midrange weight of the Lii audio origin s10’s? Thanks John

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by MattyW on 05/24/23 at 01:04:04 Any further impressions Steve? Although lacking the massive impact of your speakers the PT-10 in big bass reflex cabs continues to impress me with the bass now becoming more detailed and extended. The sound has a physical presence I've never experienced prior to these speakers. I can only imagine how things would sound with all the added impact of your BLH cabinets. EDIT: Ah, there was a whole lot more to read which didn't show until I posted. It sounds very much like I'm going to have to purchase a GIZMO2 to go with my speakers. They definitely far better at higher volume than low and I'd like to add that extra presence without having to crank the sound up..... A necessity for me actually as my wife makes me play my system as low as it will go unless she's not home.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/24/23 at 19:39:03 Hi John, It would be applicable to any single-driver full-range speaker regardless of brand.   Steve

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/24/23 at 19:50:36 So we listened to the speakers with the Gizmo2 all day without any sound issues, like skipping tracks because something doesn't sound good.  Last night we listened to them on a wide range of music, mostly acoustic, song writer, jazz, blues,  classical and some electronic.  It was flawless for over 6 hours. None of us could hear anything we didn't like. I have concluded that because the driver has such a strong magnetic flux -- the back EMF is stronger than other drivers which may be why the sound changes quite a bit from amp to amp and where to occasional glare or sharpness comes from.  I believe the Gizmo2 has a large effect on the back EMF from the voice coil reducing it's effect on the sound.  This means that the driver doesn't actually do anything wrong from a frequency balance perspective that needs fixed. I will give things another week or so and if I still am 100% happy with the sound, I'll measure the frequency response to see what it actually is in my room. Steve

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Tooppy on 05/24/23 at 20:53:51 In the Lii range what driver should benefit the most from the Gizmo2 ? Or which one would not need it ? .....if it can be answered just with the driver spec.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/24/23 at 21:21:09 So far I would say none of them that I have listened to actually need it...  It depends on the enclosure and how much bass you can get from it at a low volume.  I will try it on the Fast-15's in leu of the network when I get time, as I expect it might be an expensive alternative. It's really very simple, you just listen to your single-driver speaker and if there is glare or sharpness in the midrange or top end that you want to reduce or eliminate, your speaker needs it. Steve

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Tooppy on 05/24/23 at 21:34:26 Thanks, your description is clear, no, there is no such things with my F15' speakers.....logical I made them  ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by MattyW on 05/28/23 at 00:57:59 Hi Steve, do you have a rough idea of the price you’ll be selling the Gizmo2 for? I’d love to source one minus bypass switch and binding posts as I’d like to install EIZZ EZ-301 low mass gold plated copper binding posts….. Unless of course you can pre-install them? The silver wiring internally, is that included to tweak the soundstage a little? Cheers Matt

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 05/30/23 at 20:53:54 $925 and no options or modifications will be available. Silver wiring is standard.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by MattyW on 06/01/23 at 01:38:20 I think I can swing that... The only downside is my needing to source more FoilFlex speaker cables. Blows the price out a bit. I'll keep an eye out for its release and bookmark it for a future system upgrade  :)

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 06/02/23 at 16:24:59 I've done ten video/sound samples of the horns in our listening room.  Recorded for headphones. You can find them here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRj2qPuQz6zocI19iUtnU3w Steve

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by BlackBess on 06/02/23 at 17:40:09 How are the “wings” affixed? Located with dual pins & glued into place?

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 06/02/23 at 19:23:42 Web page to purchase plans and finished cabinets:  https://www.decwareproducts.com/dfh

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by BlackBess on 06/02/23 at 21:36:17 Ok, I was going to admit to my mistake, but first I’m still wondering about the wing attachment? If removable I guessing no glue, maybe 3 dowels? But I stand by my statement, not to be a malcontent (I guess I can’t help myself) but I can buy nitromethane even with the legal restrictions a lot easier than your FINE products. If you buy too much “out of the blue” so to speak, the feds WILL be talking to you. Better not buy to much diesel fuel & nitrogen based fertilizer either. Ok, enough joking around, I’m happily in for the long haul.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by 4krow on 06/03/23 at 02:15:09  "User installable and removable" Might be magnets.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by 4krow on 06/03/23 at 02:21:56  Ok, took a CLOSE look at the build photos, and the wings attach/detach using 3 screws. Not going to explain more because the photos are worth more than my explanation. Go through them one by one, or you will miss it.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by BlackBess on 06/03/23 at 03:52:08 Thank you, I looked at reply’s 24 & 29 & see what you’re talking about.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by 4krow on 06/03/23 at 16:20:29 BlackBess, I had pretty much the same question. Guys like you and me probably are thinking how to make it a snap on-snap off type of process. The dowel idea would be a start. Then again, I am sure that the screws hold tight, and there is that perpendicular brace that gets me to wondering about its contact with the cabinet without marring the cabinet. Could we get away with using the thinnest strip of felt backing for the wings? Uh oh, starting to think out loud again.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 06/05/23 at 04:25:24 a thin layer of felt would be no problem. l am however relying on them for side bracing which is to say that each side of the cabinet is braced/stiffened.  Without the wings, the only real alternative is to use a horizontal brace internally behind the driver that would connect the left and right side together.  That would make both sides vibrate exactly the same vs. allowing each to be somewhat decoupled from the other.   No worries, this only matters in the mind as at the lower listening levels in a room I doubt it could be heard. The imaging is more the big change you will notice.  It will be for better or worse pending distance from the walls and room dimensions, listening chair location, and perhaps equally important, electronics, cables.  Don't worry you will never know unless you have the wings and experiment with and without... sorry : )

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by BlackBess on 06/05/23 at 15:51:17 After noticing the 3 locations for fasteners along the vertical edge of the mounting hole for the removable driver baffle, I am now wondering if there is a 4th (or more) positioned mid-cabinet to align with the horizontal brace of the wing? Is this the case, strengthening the structure with some external triangulation?

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 06/06/23 at 02:41:58 Indeed you are correct.  This is how it becomes a brace for the side walls.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 06/06/23 at 04:37:32 UPDATE 6/5/23 Just logging the hours, and experimenting with speaker placement and amps/preamps. For starters let's open with the following statement: Lii Headwrecker Horns are like a high strung race car that that makes street cars look like turds stuck to the pavement. That might sound like fun, but it comes at a price. When you have a speaker that is this dynamic and this fast combined with the giant bass wavefront that comes out of each cabinet you have a recipe for trouble. The fastness will let you hear everything that is less than perfect.  I have found it a little challenging to settle on amp/preamp combinations because I am always trying to find something to make it street-able.  You know, warm, smooth, friendly, lots of bass, forgiving... but that is not its nature. Interestingly that is exactly what it will sound like if you get everything right, but that is not always easy. I am convinced so far that the 2.3 watt Zen Triode is the better amp for these speakers because it just sounds better. This is counter intuitive since the Sarah 300B is a fuller sounding amp most of the time.  In fairness, I am using a Cryo treated SE84UFO25 with Cryotone tubes that is fully burned in vs. new Sarah amps with the Chinese 300B tubes and no burn-in.  It has been making me think the Sarah 300B really doesn't like these speakers all that much. Of course it's an illusion brought on by the the hyper resolution of these speakers. Normally this difference wouldn't have so much magnification and be easily tolerated or ignored. It can steer you into the wall before you realize what happened.  Example; I decided to try a Zen Ultra preamp in front of my UFO25.  The Ultra is the warmest and slowest voicing I have. It features a tube regulated gain stage into a cathode follower and uses large 5uf film caps.  It is masterful at making a decent quality bluray player sound like a reference dac during movies. Anyway I put it in with it's inferior film caps and 6N1P tubes and was stunned! Everything was fixed.  The difference wasn't subtle. I had never heard the speakers sound this good.  I listened to it this way for almost a week. By the end of the week I was falling out of love with the speakers. Actually had visions of getting them out of the room, maybe putting them back in my wood shop. This is what happens with weak links.  Yes, the preamp masked the problems of upper midrange aggression but the speed was gone and the detail that comes with it. Sounded like normal speakers. The wavefront. It's big. Because of this there are fewer nodes in the room which is to say the standing waves are larger and harder to deal with. The common problem that results is lots of bass outside the room in other parts of the house but pretty lean in the center of the room where you tend to listen. Very large bass traps will help this issue to some degree, but when it comes to large horns in a space this size it's about damage control from 80Hz on down. The measurements I published are misleading because there is more bass than the single microphone is indicating but the large null is typical. This lead me to stop looking at room modes for once and start looking at Speaker Boundary Interference (SBIR) and how the four walls are affecting this bass null. This is why I was pulling the speakers out into the room more, to create some delay between the speaker and the front wall. I have had the speakers starting at 4 inches from the wall, and slowly put them at 24 inches from the wall. This is the distance from wall to rear of the cabinet. Nothing really changed enough to make a real difference, I was still wanting more bass and at lower volumes.  Bass and mid-bass aka weight / density. After measuring for a day I figured out that several boundaries were stacking up to create this null. So I thought the only way to fix it is to pull them even further into the room, but then realized that if I could get the back of the speaker to actually touch the wall, there would be 25% less boundaries working against me and the wall being insulated would become a low frequency absorber so long as there is contact with the wall and the cabinet. Once the proximity is lost the absorption jumps to a higher mid-bass frequency. So I put them back where I started as shown in the picture above and then pushed them back 4 inches until they touched the wall.  Remember the face of the speaker is 28 inches away from the back, so even touching the wall they are effectively 28 inches out into the room from an imaging standpoint. Magic happened. The bass at the listening chair improved by at least 25% (I think more like 50%) which was huge.  Also the speakers are playing the room now -- the way the large open baffles do. Imaging and the disappearing act is massively improved. If you were blind folded you wouldn't know what happened. It would just sound real. The impact now that it is loading the room with one less boundary wrecking things, these speakers are more than everything I'd hoped they would be in the bass department and overall frequency balance. It's so good now we need to find the magic preamp. Used a ZROCK2 set flat where I always put it and it was one of those holy crap moments when you hear everything get instantly fixed and several things get fixed you didn't realize were broken. So in my opinion anyone serious enough to buy these drivers and build these horns should have both the GIZMO2 and the ZROCK2. They are like the parachute and the seatbelts. You'll want them, need them, and cherish them. Probably not what some of you want to hear, but I'm just reporting what I discover as it happens. I have made a dozen youtube video sound demos of these speakers, all before I figured out about putting them against the wall and using a ZROCK2. Almost doesn't sound like the same speakers to be honest, so I will have to make more videos of this new configuration as time allows. To me this is really an astonishing discovery because everything has been transformed by moving the cabinets only 4 inches until they touched the wall. I have always been so concerned about dimensional room modes that I downplayed if not ignored SBIR. I now realize how important this can be and it certainly explains why speaker placement is so important. In my case it was more important than anything else I could do to treat the room and made a much larger effect. One you can hear everywhere in the building. I always used to think that the null in bass response was occurring at the listening position because I largely focused on room modes, but in actuality the null is happening directly in front of the driver itself and it is from the SBIR effects. You can measure this null anywhere in the room which would be impossible if it were a room mode. I would say unless you have a larger size room, you will have to place these touching the wall. BTW, I have been using my prototype Sarah 300B amplifier and with both the Zen Ultra and no preamp at all I didn't hear a real synergy with the speakers as I think I mentioned.  Insert the ZROCK2 and move the speakers 4 inches to the wall and now I can't imagine using a different amplifier.  Yes, I am surprised by that.  When I get it all figured out to where nothing surprises me my passion will certainly mellow some.  No worries about that actually happening because I learn too slow ; ) Steve

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by JBzen on 06/06/23 at 14:41:36 Very intriguing. Going to visit Ed Pong this weekend. Going your way soon Steve. John

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Geno on 06/06/23 at 14:54:16 Good morning, John. Going to Dr. Ed's. I am so jealous!!! You are in for a real treat! Is he recording someone while you're there, or are you just going for a tour and listen? Take lots of pictures. I'd love to see some. Best, Geno

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by JBzen on 06/08/23 at 09:56:45 Hi Geno, You bet I will and post about the visit. Yes he has a concert on Sunday and we plan on attending that if we can clear our eyes of smoke! John

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 06/10/23 at 03:31:39 Happy to report that things are still pretty blissful since moving these back that last four inches to touch the wall and adding a ZROCK2 as the preamp. The ZROCK2 has a bypass switch and I've been enjoying it for several days so today I decided to use the bypass and hear the speakers with just the amplifier and magnetic crossover.  It was very satisfying to hear that the sound is good without the ZROCK2, I didn't miss it because I wasn't using it for any additional bass, just to bloom up the midrange. Without it, the sound is a touch tighter which is nice, albeit artificially accurate. With the ZROCK2 as the preamp everything sounds more fleshed out, more real, more there.  And it's not less tight.  It's just that there is more density and weight so the balance is better.  The performance of these speakers is just incredible. The bass will wreck you. It really speaks to my muscle car experience that I can't let go of... one that started when I was 11.  In my muscle car there are no computers, no fuel injection, just a high compression V8 with more torque than you can stick to the road. The experience of driving it is all about dynamics. The contrast between just going along at any speed and sticking the throttle only the tiniest amount and having yourself smashed into the seat. The low gear and entire setup is designed to maximize this effect. It pushes the envelope to the point where fear starts to set in. So using this analogy, when you listen to these horns the acceleration of the notes and the instantaneous punch in the bass that comes with it is basically the same experience as driving the car. You know you got something very rare that can just eat up most cars on the road and do it without a computer.  These Horns not only do it without a computer, but do it with only 2 watts and that's probably the best part.  You're thinking all these other losers are running 100's of watts into speakers that need it just to roll down the road. There is very little separation between my car and my audio gear, all of which I built and tweaked to create the same invigorating sensation of freedom.  They do it in slightly different ways... but let's just say the car is so good at it (probably because it's easier to die) that you listen to the same track every time you drive it, for decades.  You could never get away with that on your stereo...not even a Decware stereo. ; ) So now that these Lii Headwrecker Horns have been released into the DIY world you can have this experience by your own hands As a final thought the finesse of these drivers going down to around 30Hz re-enforces the position that if you can avoid a subwoofer, do it.  It will never sound like this.  On the other hand, in smaller rooms without bass traps these speakers are likely to create a standing wave so large that the experience will be bass free.  In that situation a pair of bookshelf speakers on stands paired with a small sub is likely to sound perfect due to a reduction of boundary effects. Steve : )

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by MattyW on 06/20/23 at 01:48:15 It sounds like you've built the perfect speakers around the PT-10 Steve. Fantastic results  :)

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 06/20/23 at 05:45:26 Thanks for the kind words : ) May as well give another update: The speakers and system as a whole continues to improve.  I am finding them addicting on so many levels. I am currently driving them with the Zen Sarah 300B amp directly connected to the HOLO Audio MAY dac and it's really hard to pull yourself away because the density is at a new level that not even the large Zen Master Series baffles have, nor the Decware corner horns, or even the House speakers although they are the closest.  These things make the floor shake, and it's concrete. Doesn't have to be too loud either, they just have such velocity and dynamics and scale.   The imaging is just phenomenal. Large wide arc that extends 8 feet past either speaker and massive depth, height. This is really kind of the biggest surprise considering their size. You really can't hear the speakers at all. The dynamics are pretty mind numbing when you turn the speakers up a bit.  I've never heard anything like it. I realize that this horn design will work with many drivers and all of them will sound great in it. That is why it has a removable front baffle with four large threaded machine screws.  But much of what I am describing is the driver itself. The Lii Song Platinum 10 is just sick. It's like one of those rapid fire CRAM air defense guns.  And while you're having one of those holy shit moments you look and the cones aren't even moving yet.  Then you remember you're only listening to 4 or 5 watts (Decware watts) and the whole thing becomes unbelievable, yet there it is. Scale is up to any type of music no matter how big, and the speed makes complex music sound simple. The speakers decode music like one of those rubix cube champions you see on TV. This makes electronic music and it's infinite layering potential simply amazing to listen to.  It sounds nothing like it does on 'normal' speakers. The bass is better than anything I've heard in my listening room...   I have been enticed by these speakers to upgrade my analogue game a bit since the DAC is getting competitive with the vinyl rig... and more to the point the speakers are making it so easy to become dissatisfied with things and discover the weak links that are causing that dissatisfaction...   Let me give you an example of what such a bright light can do in a cave of ignorance or stupidity... I upgraded my cartridge several years ago and it's extra low output. I used our ZMC1 transformer with it despite knowing it didn't have enough gain to be ideal.  I felt like Decware should use our own step up transformer in the demo room, so that's what we did. I sounded great, but it needed an additional gain stage on the output of the ZP3 to get in the game. Anyway these speakers compelled me to dig deeper and order the matching step up transformer for the cartridge, which came in from Japan last week.   I installed it and was simply flabbergasted at the improvement it made and then immediately stumped by how real the recording sounded and wondered how could it be created in the first place to sound this good, certainly no one on the planet including the musicians the engineers could have heard it sound anywhere near this good on the gear they're using to mix and master it, right? See where you mind goes when it sounds too good to be true?  I mean it's so over the top that it seems to eclipse the moon landing in human accomplishments. No longer any worries about loosing to the DAC. I took the track Random Access Memories from Daft Punk and played it back to back, HOLO DAC vs. the new cartridge and it wasn't even close. The Cartridge just destroyed the DAC. Even though I imagine the music was digitally mastered and then transferred to vinyl, it somehow was probably at least two the three times better coming out of this cartridge.  How?  I mean there was at least two to three times more music coming out of the speakers, I shit you not.  This really intrigues me, because it has to be an illusion right? So on that note, I decided to get some new vinyl including some of this Infected Mushroom music. Then I saw the albums are costing hundreds of dollars and for a fair bit less than that I can take the output of the HOLO audio dac and put it into the tape machine, which I did. A similar thing happened when I played the tapes back... It got quite a bit better. Somehow the bass hit and dynamics got tighter and bigger at the same time and the music separated out better.  So I made two 15 IPS tapes that I then played back nice and loud and put myself in a state of bliss because the sound and balance was so perfect. None of this would have happened without the sick resolution of these speakers pushing me to make things better. That's because without this resolution finding the next level of weak links is nearly impossible.  You might do it by chance or luck, but probably not.  You have to be able to easily hear the changes.  These speakers make it beyond easy to hear the change of anything in the system.   I really couldn't be happier.  There is a long journey ahead to hear all the music I like with what feels like four ears instead of two.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by JBzen on 06/20/23 at 09:47:42 Tape is the ultimate dynamic media for reproduction that can not be duplicated digitally. It seems your stating that in your message. So exciting to be on that path of magnetic tape! 🍻 Hope the Monti is running. John

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by johnnycopy on 06/22/23 at 00:14:36 Ed, Are you saying you are not using the gizmo2 or the zrock2, just holo to Sarah to speakers? Thanks John

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 06/22/23 at 03:19:22 I am using the Gizmo2 and no ZROCK2 or preamp.  Just Holo, ZP3 or Tape machine directly into the amp for the past week or so. Steve

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by JBzen on 07/03/23 at 10:30:58 Steve, I took some time yesterday and listened to the Headwreaker's progression. To me it is very noticable on how these things blossomed over the 14 videos. Very enticing for sure! John

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 07/04/23 at 04:01:02       Hi John, The speakers have been forcing me to up my game a bit.  Due to their large size and black finish, my phone that I use to make the videos and recordings will no longer focus properly.  It sees too much black and starts strobing the color... I finally had to give up and stopped using it. Then there is the matter of the tapes.  My Infected Mushroom tapes played loud have such an intoxicating hit that I have desperately wanted to capture it for these videos but it just won't come through all the compression and limiting that the phone puts on it, not to mention YouTube.   I have countless ways to record it, but getting that on a video without spending all day is the problem.  In any case I'm switching over to a better camera that can handle the lighting conditions and a separate battery operated stereo microphone/preamp with 20dB of gain so that I can run the  noisy preamp in the camera at a lower level and hopefully get decent recordings.   This is a zero forgiveness way to record thou...  Unlike the very forgiving phone which kept anything from sounding too good or too bad, this setup will be brutally honest. Even stepped up, I tried 6 times to record the tapes and it's just not going to capture it accurately.  The dynamics are still too soft and the weight is diminished.  So to hear the hit I'm talking about you'll just probably have to wait until DECFEST 2023 to hear them in person . These speakers remind me a lot of the HDT's which are my goto speaker for flushing out all the weak links in the audio chain. They are great for amplifier design due to the lack of forgiveness and uncanny speed.  Lets you hear what's really there. Anyway, because of these speakers and only because of these speakers, the Decware YouTube videos are transitioning into 4K with hi-res audio.  That would seem like a good thing, but the phone was so perfect on the small gimbal I have for it...  now I have a large gimbal I can barely operate and everything is heavy and cumbersome by comparison.  So really I blame it all on these speakers. Steve : )

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by JBzen on 07/04/23 at 12:58:54 The last video I watched was Lord "Tennis Court". The kick drum is fantastic on the first play. It was full, sublime, and cut the air between the headphone transducers and eardrums like a knife with full dynamics spread in my head. The second play not so much. May have something to do with psychoacoustics. Also, YouTube, Android, and/or Xfinity may store some streaming data that screws with timing on the second play. I've tried a gimbal with GoPros used for bicycling. Ditching the gimbal in short order because the motor noise of the gimbal was noticeable on the sound track. Video recording, editing, and publishing can easily send one down a deep rabbit hole. I have (4) four gigabyte terabyte drives full of footage taken while bike riding and found it to be very intensive to make anything useful out of it without devoting way too much unavailable time. I rather just ride. I guess my point is you might just be beating your head against the wall trying to use internet media to get what your hearing across to us. Anyhow, check your listening schedule. I have one set up for the third week in this month. Have a great 4th! John

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Tooppy on 07/04/23 at 17:22:28 I remember some of Kenrick's videos raising this problem years ago, today he masters it to its best. One of his latest :   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkreDNTGfmY

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 07/15/23 at 04:13:29 Tonight I am listening to the horns for the very first time on more than 6 watts. Got to demo a TORII JRv2 today on a pair of ERRx. The customer also wanted to hear a ZROCK2 so that was used as a preamp set to its flat setting but with a couple dB of gain.   What better opportunity than right now to hear these horns on higher power! I have the amp volume set to 9:00 o'clock. So I am at the same listening level that I have been at using the SE84UFO25 and the SARAH 300B. I mention it because while I'm sure I could turn this up loud enough to make your eyes bulge out of your head, I have no desire to. This is my rompy listening level that I like. The reason for posting tonight is to say that the sound got better. The music is more compelling. Incredible accuracy and control with probably infinite headroom at this volume. So this is an ultra-linear push-pull pentode with no feedback. Simply amazing. I didn't realize the speakers could get better than they were. Didn't see this coming.  Wow.  This combination, HOLO MAY via USB from Roon Nucleus feeding ZROCK2 feeding TORII  JRv2 on these speakers actually sounded almost exactly like my turntable with the Fidelity Research arm and FR7 silver coil cartridge.   So the speakers are even better than I thought.  When I get a balls to crank them on some Infected Mushroom music I'll report back. Right now I'm playing music that I have on vinyl, like Tom Scott, Larry Carlton, and well recorded music along those lines. Have a great weekend! Steve

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Ghostship on 07/25/23 at 16:37:04 "Decware Folded Horn for Platinum-10, Lii Headwrecker, just came out from piano factory." https://www.facebook.com/liiaudiobrand/

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Kamran on 07/26/23 at 01:16:35 Yea, saw that too on Lii’s facebook page—that finish looks fantastic! John—how did your listening appt/session go?

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by JBzen on 07/26/23 at 08:49:47 Kamran, The Headwreckers are the real deal when it comes to weight. Well, both physical and sound reproduction weight ;) Steve is in the process of making a stand on wheels to roll those around finding better positioning in his room to enhance imaging. I also listened to the HDTs with Liis Silvers and was impressed on how much the sound improved since Decfest last fall. When time permits a review of the couple hours with Steve will be posted. Right now too much wonderful fun in the sun is to be had. John

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 07/26/23 at 16:24:30 Here is the base/platform for the cabinet!  I have added the plans to the web page.  Now I can freely move them around the room.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 07/26/23 at 16:27:21 It didn't take long for them to end up here on the West end of the room.  They do in fact image much better as expected, and by comparison to before they sound less congested.  The stands improve the sound regardless of placement, but now it becomes the easiest speaker in the room to move... how ironic.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Dr3wman on 07/26/23 at 16:36:26 Steve - Somewhat off-topic... The official mascot/cat of Decware seems to always find the sweet spot for sound stage.........do they have a particular type of music they seem more drawn to?

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by CAJames on 07/26/23 at 16:42:11 Quote: Posted by: Dr3wman      Posted on: Today at 08:36:26 Steve - Somewhat off-topic... The official mascot/cat of Decware seems to always find the sweet spot for sound stage.........do they have a particular type of music they seem more drawn to? My cat prefers Beethoven. FYI/FWIW/YMMV and all that.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 07/30/23 at 03:09:57

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Paul2 on 07/30/23 at 07:52:38 ^ Priceless

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by JBzen on 07/30/23 at 14:12:08 I was hesitant to pick up the cat who was peacefully asleep on the listening chair on my last visit Steve. Glad you did. When seated in front of the massive Headwreckers it turns out those are all you claim in this thread. Bass notes are heard playfully conveying the joy of the artist as one plays the instrument. Mids are lush and produced in a very intelligible manner. Highs are crisp and smooth. I really did not notice any conjestion. Imaging did suffer as compared to the HDTs. Good to hear that moving the Headwreckers on the west side of the room improved the only weakness observed with those beasts! Heck, I'm going to make a strong effort to make this years Decfest! John

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by JBzen on 07/30/23 at 14:27:45 Phono rig has become second chair up against tape. Who or what contemporary is going to ban this album! Shameful idealists we have today.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Kamran on 07/30/23 at 16:12:41 Music to my ears!

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 07/31/23 at 03:29:35 UPDATE: 7/30/23 A lot of things have coalesced since moving the speakers to the West end of the room where they can breath. Right now I have things dialed in and the sound stage is 20 feet behind the speakers, which would be 15 feet behind the curtain.  The focus is uncanny. The bass First thing noticed after moving the speakers to this end of the room was the imaging, but then very quickly it was the bass.  The hole seems to be gone.  This is like a gift that I wasn't anticipating and I am so grateful!  Holy crap is it nice without the hole.   I believe much of my concern about the bass of these speakers may have come by unique circumstance.  I have full size horns on the West end of the room designed for bass only.  They are not being used, and have been successfully designed not to sympathetically resonate with the other speakers in the room,  but... while that has been true for the past 20 years, I have never actually built a giant pair of similar horns and placed them on the opposite end of the room and fired them directly at each other...  It's probable that when the speakers were on the East end of the room the hole was created by an interaction with the horns at the West end of the room.  This makes sense now, because none of the smaller speakers I have create a bass null at the listening position. Frequency Balance The raw character of these speakers is to be insanely articulate and a bit forward by themselves.  When I moved them to the other end of the room I wondered if that would change.  It did not.  Well, actually IT DID!  I was frankly stunned, because I couldn't figure out how that was possible, but they sounded nicely staged back with good depth and weren't forward sounding.  Then I realized I had the network for the Lii Song Fast 15 still on the Sarah 300B amp from a previous demo and forgot to take it off.  Honestly, I preferred them on, so I listened that way on and off for several days. The overall balance on this end of the room is far better because there is even weight throughout the bass regions, so really it's just about getting it to layer back and get the 3D space of the sound stage perfectly balanced. The Gizmo2 I am really starting to love this thing.  I realized I like the HDT better with the Gizmo2 when I accidentally left it on one day when switching speakers.  Anyway, I installed the Gizmo2 from the start, but have had it in bypass mode this whole time.  I un-bypassed it and things got better still.  More separation from front to back in the sound stage.  It spent a few days with it using the Fast 15 networks at the same time and found I adjusted the Gizmo 2 to max which means minimal effect. Later I removed the network and have been listening without it using the Gizmo2 turned all the way up which is to say maximum effect.  Lon would like this.   The Amp and Tubes I got my collection of 300B tubes back from the Steve Guttenberg review and all I had during those several months was the Chinese tube I found that I liked and that we offer to ship with the amps.  I can say with confidence that the tube doesn't suck.  Especially after hearing it on these speakers.  The dynamics are anything but weak and the sound is beautiful.  It is so good in fact that it made me forget about the Western Electrics that I sent out for review for at least a couple of months or more before I began to wonder what they sounded like... So the other day I popped in my Western Electrics during the middle of a listening session kind of wondering what I would hear change and as soon as I turned up the volume there was a sanctity in my listening space that just made me gasp and then stand there in amazement at the difference in transparency... so that was fun. The Cables This is where it gets kind of interesting... I am driving the amplifier with a single pair of DECWARE RCA interconnects from the ZBIT to the Sarah 300B amplifier.  Feeding the ZBIT is DECWARE XLR cable from the Cambridge CXNv2. Since it was only a single 1 meter pair of RCA I used a prototype cable I got from Lii Song that had a slightly silkier sound I thought might compliment these horns.  After going back and forth for a few days I was convinced the cable is a notch above our own cables. Then it was time to introduce a ZROCK to see how using a different approach to regulating forwardness by pushing or pulling back the image compares to the Gizmo2... or at least that was the plan. Since I had to add an additional set of interconnects to make the ZROCK2 a reality, and since I didn't want to mess with what I already had, I set the ZROCK up on the second set of inputs, so I went from a single 1 meter cable to a pair, and just to mess with my head, both were actually 2 meter cables. At this point I found the textured silky transparency and sound stage of the Lii cable from the ZBIT better than the sound from the ZROCK going through the other cables.  I became convinced the presentation was better without the ZROCK and long lengths of cables.  I blamed it on the cables. ZROCK3 I have been developing a ZROCK3 because I have been refining and improving the ZROCK for the past several months.  Now was a good time to test it.  The above results that I blamed on the cables I also blamed on the the new ZROCK3 that had no burn-in time on it.   After a couple days of using it and going back and forth, I decided to take advantage of one of the bigger new features of the ZROCK3 which is a variable output level.  I wanted to match the gain exactly with the ZBIT so I could A/B things a little more seriously.  After adjusting it down to match other input everything completely changed for the better.  I was actually stunned.  The layering and depth, and focus and everything I love about a ZROCK was there but it sounds as transparent or more so.  It was such a game changer for the sound stage.  It is set to about 10:00 A.M. so the EQ hasn't kicked in yet.  I have never been able to listen to a ZROCK at this position before, or perhaps I could have, but never wanted to. By being adjusted into nearly perfectly flat response and at unity gain relative to the other input from the ZBIT which itself was set to unity gain at 2 volts, the layers have been just coming into focus and getting deeper and deeper as we go. Now, I am hearing the sound focus, timbre, layers, depth and transparency are all better than before when not using the ZROCK.  So this completely vaporized my observation/suspicions that the cables were a big reason why I initially didn't like the ZROCK in the path. Anyway, the ZROCK3 dialed back to unity and the GIZMO2 are the only things being used to make these speakers a new reference for sound stage. They are like the House speakers but bigger and faster and more visceral in the bass. After dark, even the most delicate music has immense density and dynamics and decay.  Hell, you can be mesmerized on these things listening to elevator music. Anyway, what started this thread was the insane imaging and sound stage depth that came as a result of all this experimenting which came as a result of moving the speakers to the other side of the room where there is lots of space around and behind them.  Because of the difference in depth resolution this brought it was suddenly easy to hear differences and I became motivated to explore it.  On the East end of the room the idea would have never presented itself, and didn't. So this years DECFEST will be a lot of fun having something new to hear.  I'm thinking about having attendees sign a release form before hearing them.  This is no doubt the best demo in the Decware listening room to date.  It is much like the large open baffles in size and scale, but with razor sharp focus and imaging that just has me shaking my wrecked head. The Gizmo2, the ZROCK, the impedance switches on the amp and the sound stage switch on the amp along with tubes in the amp all finding their synergistic part in the play have created a virtual experience that exactly replicates the physical experience of getting a tonearm mechanically dialed in to a specific cartridge.  So picture a super high end cartridge where the tonearm wasn't ideal, the azimuth a touch off, the wrong mass, the vta set too high and this is what comes from the factory. You haven't heard the cartridge yet.  Get it dialed in and holy cow.  Lii Song driver in this horn, same thing. Steve

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Kamran on 07/31/23 at 04:05:20 Don’t mean to hijack the thread on the Horns—-I’m so looking forward to this years Decfest—-but…. Did you just say that a ZROCK 3 is around the corner? Color me intrigued!

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 08/03/23 at 01:31:02 Yes, there is going to be a ZROCK3.  It will be a ZROCK2 with a variable output control.   The ZROCK2 was designed to go between the source and preamp.  In many cases with Decware, there is no preamp which is made possible by the input gain control on the amplifiers. When you use a ZROCK and set it past 12:00 or so, you begin to create gain.  In most cases this is 3 to 6 dB of gain.  This is not a problem with Decware gear but can be a problem with non-Decware gear.  For example, a large solid state or tube amplifier without an input level control... expecting to see less than 1 volt of signal because it comes to full power with 1 volt, is not going to be noise free if you put 4 or 5 volts on the input. Many people do just this, because they want to ZROCK all of their sources, not just one like the unit was designed for.  That means they put it between their preamp and power amp and that often makes noise or hum that can be audible. If any of these amplifiers had an input gain control, placing the ZROCK between a preamp and amp would work without problems because you would simply turn the gain control down on the amp the same amount that the ZROCK turned the gain up. By putting a variable output level feature into the ZROCK3 it is the same thing as putting an input level control on amplifiers that don't have one.  The product will be available this fall.  Don't know the price yet, it's going to be a lot harder to build so labor will shoot the price up.  We may be able to upgrade the ZROCK2 but again, too soon to price it until we find out if it's even possible without rebuilding the whole thing to get the parts in the right places.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Matchstikman on 08/03/23 at 04:30:56 Will the ZROCK3 replace the ZROCK2 or will I still be able to get the ZROCK2?

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by charles hidalgo on 08/29/23 at 03:17:35 My goodness. Here we go again.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by charles hidalgo on 08/30/23 at 16:41:09 What is the song used in the Bass output test video? Anyone? Thanks

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 09/20/23 at 02:40:30 Sorry didn't see your post.  I will look it up when I can. But tonight as I listen to these speakers in the raw with no ZROCK but instead the GIZMO2 as they will be presented during Decfest... This friking speaker is just like my damn car!  Man...  When it's in the mood to show what it's really made of -- it's simply a holy shit moment!  You can't even believe it just did that!!  It presents itself as the 24 carat capstone of the pyramid by which all else is measured. You know the feeling... sideways at a 45 mph stab and then just starts pulling like a rocket! So you are happy. Then you want to share the experience with some else, you get them in the car and the performance is just hearsay.  A ridiculous disappointment. They came during the day when the track weather conditions were less than ideal. The only trend with this kind of performance is that the conditions have to be exactly right and then it's really a holy shit moment!! With the 'damn car' it's only when the temperature, humidity and pressure are at the ideal alignment and the car is in the mood to show off that it will happen. Many will experience this at Decfest.  Hearing it one minute, usually during the day, and thinking not for me...  then hours later after dark hearing it and thinking holy crap what just happened? I guess this is the nature of extreme high end.  It's not high end... it's extreme high end.  It's not street-able.  It's extreme.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 09/20/23 at 03:08:06 There is a lot going on with these speakers right now...  and everything else -- so I haven't been able to post much about them but the listening hours are stacking up nicely and once these are on a dac with a linear power supply and Decware or equally good amplifier using the right speaker cables (ZSTYX) and a GIZMO2 to stage the sound stage back with good adjustable front to back depth and balance the sound is the best we have achieved to date.  All made possible by the lii Song PT10 driver and our maximized horn enclosure design to show off what it is capable of.   Hearing low bass frequencies with this speed is something that 99.5% of audiophiles have never experienced.  Most are judging bass speed using woofers with 100 to 120 grams of moving mass with high power feedback laden amplifiers with lots of consequential damping to 'control' the sloppy woofer achieving an illusion of tight bass response.   Speed is how fast a woofer can stop. A 17 gram moving mass can stop faster than a 120 gram moving mass. You couldn't find a subwoofer fast enough to not compromise the time signature / phase angle of the low frequencies.  Hey man, relax. Giant speaker cabinets like this (which was normal in the 1950's ) have more bass than you can deal with.  No subwoofers are required. You have bone crushing dynamics from 30Hz to 15kHz all from a single point source and a single voice coil and with no crossover.  Just a single point source/voice coil connected directly the amplifier.  Transparency is disarming. One of my personal favorite parts of DECFEST every year is that a fair amount of people get to listen in the Decware listening room after dark into the wee hours of the morning.  They then hear for themselves what I write about and realize it wasn't exaggerating.  There is no comparison to the sound here during the day and after dark...  despite power conditioners etc., it is impossible not to notice.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Kamran on 09/21/23 at 02:08:58 I can already see the title of my summary post after the event: “Sleepless in Peoria”

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Palomino on 09/21/23 at 02:42:40 Maybe five or six years ago at the fest Steve had a zen amp hooked up to a set of speakers and the big corner bass horns.  Just a simple crossover to parse the signals. I do not remember the tracks but it was the best organic low bass I’d ever heard.  Truly a wow moment in the analogues of Decfest history.  Right up there with the debut of the OTL amp playing Fanfare for the Common Man. My point being if that can be duplicated with a single driver in a horn cab, it will be special.  And yes a Kamran, you will have a hard time sleeping.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Jackie Badman on 09/21/23 at 23:48:38 Hi Steve.. a most excellent new design.  I have bought some plans from the shop and will build a pair over the next few months.  I know this question comes up a lot on the internet, but I wanted to ask your thoughts specifically on the choice one has between MDF or Ply for the Headwreckers... I see you have used MDF for yours.  The cabinets look highly braced up, which I am guessing probably reduces the differences between the materials sonically.. Look forward to your comment.  With thanks!

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Tooppy on 09/22/23 at 10:21:00 I consider a baffle has something to do with a musical instrument in some ways. What you are seeking is avoiding resonance inside. MDF is homogenous and dense. So it is predictable, easy to craft and rather cheap, that are the reasons why the industry use it now. With heavy stuffing at the right place, proof is...it works. As for me when I built my speakers, I used OSB  precisely because it isn't homogenous but has nothing to see with a beautiful wood if you can afford it. I am pretty sure different kind of wood would give different results. Who has ever tested that ? Who has ever tested different woods in the same baffle, different thickness for certain parts, etc ...? When we talk about violin we forgot the bow quality which plays a tremendous role. Conclusion, if you are not money tight, let your feelings go and try what comes out, make sure you can easily modify after long listening sessions. It is a game which can last a long time and a pleasure as well. That's what DIY is about. If you want no surprise and less fun, follow exactly what Steve has done.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 09/23/23 at 00:34:49 Quote: Hi Steve.. a most excellent new design.  I have bought some plans from the shop and will build a pair over the next few months.  I know this question comes up a lot on the internet, but I wanted to ask your thoughts specifically on the choice one has between MDF or Ply for the Headwreckers... I see you have used MDF for yours.  The cabinets look highly braced up, which I am guessing probably reduces the differences between the materials sonically.. Look forward to your comment.  With thanks! Plywood has a particular sound, as does MDF and other 3/4 material.  While it is stronger it is not as dense or as dead as MDF, not that MDF is dead but plywood is even hotter.  This is why you see such care into the bracing of this design.  It is by far the best large horn I've done to date.  Almost zero energy on the cabinet compared to a less braced cabinet from plywood, like say a Klipsch LaScala as an example. If you're looking for coloration, and sometimes it is desirable, plywood will have more of it until both are braced to a state where neither can move.  At that point the plywood is lighter and can have hollow pockets in the interior ply's that can buzz like a loose screw in worse case scenarios. MDF has to be sealed with a sanding sealer, every board on all 6 sides, before assembly.  It's not an option.  MDF is also flat.  Plywood seldom is, so if you don't want to wrestle large panels into place with clamps, MDF is a good go to. With most speakers (Zen Master Series Open Baffles as an exception) I like a very inert cabinet.  If as a speaker designer I need the colorations of the cabinet to add simulated texture to drivers that have been squashed with excessive crossover networks, then I guess it makes sense to have a more lively cabinet but with crossover-less single driver and simple two-way loudspeakers of higher sensitivity you definitely don't need any artificial enhancements. Also, thanks Trooppy for the sending out the good advise.  Follow exactly what I have done and get exactly the same result.  This is especially important for the interior and the final tuning with the round 3 inch thick pillow and felt surface treatment in strategic places.  This process took some time because it was tuned by ear using my own voice until it sounded right.  It is a sparse combination of craft felt that is no thicker than .3 mm I would say and the action on the pillow and holes around the pillow that keep the speed so high and all the reflections from the lower chamber absorbed.   I believe the shape of that chamber in combination with the round pillow creates a diode affect on frequencies up to 3 inches, which is the entire midrange.  Sounds that go down into the chamber from the 4 holes around the pillow don't come back out.  The proximity of the pillow to the driver gives an immediate reflex without any waves standing on the surface which is ideal.   All of this is about timing.  The horn design, the interior surfaces, the bracing.  It is to maximize speed as the sound moves through the horn and to make sure it doesn't stand inside the cavity that feeds the horn.  You see -- the faster a driver is the more important this becomes otherwise the speed reveals a time smear from the interior surfaces if they are covered in say 1 inch felt, foam, or fiberglass.  You would never hear this on a 88dB, 120 gram moving mass hifi driver.  But on a racehorse like this it is a different game with different rules.  This is like the Nascar of hifi when it is even mildly pushed.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Tooppy on 09/23/23 at 09:36:09 Steve Do you have an idea of how make the "pillow" because I don't think it will be easy to find it anywhere !

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 09/23/23 at 16:31:30

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Palomino on 09/27/23 at 23:29:09 I am hoping to hear this song on the new horns at the fest. Good driving bass. Makes Us Stronger - Ghost Rider Its on Tidal.  Not sure about Qobuz. I have more, but this one is my favorite to listen to on the P10s.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Kamran on 09/28/23 at 00:02:31 Tom, You and me both! it’s on Qobuz as well, and one of my test tracks for bass.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by HockessinKid on 09/28/23 at 00:05:52 Here is a link to the song. It's the last one on the album. Listen to the release Part of the Dream (Compiled by Vini Vici) by Vini Vici on Qobuz https://open.qobuz.com/album/ku78a1s0egvva HK

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Palomino on 09/28/23 at 00:30:42 Thanks HK.  Will check it out.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by GroovySauce on 09/28/23 at 00:39:41 Just finished listening to the track for the first time. The intro is really wild as well. I can hear things all around me. Very strong 90 deg angle from listening position beind it's a little softer and not as clear. Around 2:50ish sounds and feels so cool! Thanks for sharing.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Palomino on 09/28/23 at 01:05:16 My reason for searching for bass demo songs is I am pretty aware of what the P10 driver is capable of from 200hz and up.   But I am intrigued by Steve’s comments about producing lower bass with a significantly lighter cone via the horn configuration. My 15” bass drivers are 94db efficient 1W1M but they have to be moving a lot more cone mass.  How much tighter and dynamic can the base be with the single driver, ultra light cone approach? Inquiring minds ant to know.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by GroovySauce on 09/28/23 at 12:40:33 Related to good bass tracks. https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1688481139 I linked a short playlist Qobuz and Tidal. Others have added songs and comments also. I went to grab the link and realized that I missed a lot of the conversation on that thread and will be replying to it. Also keeps this thread on track.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Palomino on 09/28/23 at 12:56:23 Thanks GS.   Will definitely check it out.  I am a bit of a bass head. I didn't mean to take this thread off track but I am curious to hear what the folded horns can do and my ADHD kinda had me pinging between topics explored in three threads - bass, folded horn, and Decfest.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by GroovySauce on 09/28/23 at 13:08:25 Palomino, If I came across as the Topic Police that wasn't my intent. I think your posting of the track and the following discussion is 100% appropriate for this thread. I'm also really interested in listening to Steve's new folded horns. Before I bought my OB speakers I was looking at folded horns and never got the chance to listen to any.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Palomino on 09/28/23 at 13:48:30 NP GS.  Loving your base thread.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Geno on 10/09/23 at 01:17:47 Pal, Kam, etc. I anxiously await reviews of y’all’s experiences with: 1) headwreckers evaluation. Specifically how they compare to same driver in open baffles. 2) Wathen open baffle evaluation. Again, compared to PT-10 in headwreckers and open baffles. 3) complete synopsis of the fest, specifically the highlights. Thanks, Geno

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Dave B.S. on 10/13/23 at 00:19:28 Hi Steve, is there a design to follow for the internal diffusers in the Headwrecker?  Also, a newbie question: how do you secure the baffle to the speaker cabinet since you can't get to the back of the baffle. What hardware works best for that?  Thanks for a great design and for your support to us diyers. Dave

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by PDXDrew on 10/14/23 at 16:56:34 +1 on waiting for Headwrecker impressions.....

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Brian on 10/15/23 at 22:51:35 +2

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 10/23/23 at 18:11:45 There are several comments about them in the DECFEST 2023 thread.  I think the first comment starts here: https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1688600764/101#101

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Mamu on 11/01/23 at 00:06:05 Hello everyone, Slowly and painstakingly; relying on my rudimentary carpentry skills;   I am building speakers for P10 drivers based on Steve’s DFH Plans. What is the best way to fix craft felt and foam to the panels inside to properly secure them?  Do I just use wood glue or nail them? Thank you Mamuka

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by 4krow on 11/01/23 at 15:56:38 I guess that wood glue works, but I tend to like rubber cement or contact adhesive. I would avoid nails in general, because with each hammering, you are beating all the other joints as well.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Same Old DD on 11/01/23 at 19:16:34 I agree with 4krow! Any time I have added compressed woven felt to the inside of an enclosure with wood glue, it absorbed too deeply into the felt and turned 1/4 inch felt into about 1/8 inch depth. Then the glue hardens and you have almost like the wood itself where the glue absorbed too deeply into the felt, making the felt less effective. I have used 3M Super 77 spray contact adhesive with much greater success. Don't even need much on the felt. I don't bother with staples or nails for this.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Mamu on 11/09/23 at 01:05:57 Thank you Same Old DD and 4krow for advice. I'll do testing with different contact adhesives before installing felts and foams into cabinets.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by maddog07 on 11/10/23 at 22:33:21 3M 77 Super spray adhesive is the stickiest stuff I have ever seen.  It will stick anything.  And it's cured in two minutes or less - make sure you have everything where you want it before you join the parts... because in about 60 seconds you ain't moving it without tearing something. It's kind of like "duct tape" you never want to be without it. **tip #1: for least stick, only spray one of the two surfaces to be joined.  If you really want them stuck - spray both surfaces, wait 30 seconds and press them together.   **tip #2:  make sure you turn the can upside down after each use and spray a little propellent out to clear the nozzle - to avoid a clog next use.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by 4krow on 11/11/23 at 03:53:17  The stuff is good alright, But don't try to stick a big piece of matting through a bass driver hole and think you aren't going to be Pi**ed before you are done. A little her, and then a little there will accomplish what you need until you have it all. I do like the quick stick of the product but just be patient with it.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Same Old DD on 11/11/23 at 13:24:05 You guys are all correct. 3M Super 77 is really a strong, dependable adhesive. I figure if you guys are out there building Steve's latest creation, then you are in this for real and not just playing here. I suppose I could have added a caveat, a yeah but and a what if regarding this powerful product before recommending it. A what if might be that if you have no experience using contact cement, then get some before you try it on your carefully sawn to fit pieces. It is the best contact cement I have used and even works as NOT a contact cement if you need. Using it as just a spray on glue, you have thirty or forty seconds to reposition things if you need - quite unlike using it as a contact cement. 3M also makes a heat activated contact cement, where you smear it on and allow it to dry. (takes a long time to dry sufficiently) Then you can place things and reposition them until they are just right, tack them in place. It won't stick yet. This product does not bind until you use heat to activate the bond. Sorry, I can't remember the catalog designation of that product right now, but it has proven to me to be inconvenient for internal speaker enclosure use. It works better as an edge binding for veneer along a plywood edge or applying cork joint seals on woodwind tenons.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Donnie on 01/13/24 at 21:51:16 So has anyone completed their copy of their HeadWrecker yet? I'm starting to get thinking about this upcoming year's projects and the thought of these speakers are intriguing me. Lot's of time to do thing after April, retirement opens up my dance card. I'm just wondering how the builds go? Is it pretty straightforward? The second thought that comes to mind is if some other driver would work in the place of the Lii? Maybe even a 2 way with a tweeter. My mind is always churning out bad ideas.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by DJFreon on 01/16/24 at 14:51:45 My Headwrecker journey has been long but it looks like they will be finished by mid February. As a recap...I got many quotes for the cabinet builds from 18K$ to finally 2K$ each box from my Amish kitchen builders. They have a new Bessie CNC and will include paint work. The design is modified to use rabbet slots for the internal bracing, this will make the glue up easy. I also modified the diffusers to be acoustic foam I has from a studio build. The internal pillow is same as what Steve used. The paint is SkuffX midnight black satin. I almost added casters but decided against it because they would ruin  the wood floors so I'll use sliders. I am going to put the wiring terminals in the front as Steve did and probably use the wings because my room is long. Needless to say the anticipation is exciting and I'll be using the UFO amp and also try the R8. I will post some photo's when they are complete.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by DJFreon on 01/26/24 at 13:36:16 Hi Steve, What did you use for the baffle and wing mounting nuts? MDF inserts  E-Z LOK Threaded Inserts? flush or flange? My set of horns will be complete soon! Thank you! BTW I was surprised to see you using AMT's!

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 01/26/24 at 16:04:41 The wings use cabinet screws from the inside, while the baffle uses 5/16 threaded bolts with inserts.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by DJFreon on 02/01/24 at 18:37:45 Hi Steve, Do you think it's okay to use 1/4" threaded bolts with inserts to mount the speaker baffle. I would have to order 5/16" and assemble is scheduled for just a few days away. Thanks John

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by DJFreon on 02/27/24 at 19:31:40 Finally making progress...

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Donnie on 02/27/24 at 21:34:10 Exciting! My problem would be that I wouldn't be able to sleep after I started putting them together. All nighters until I could listen to them.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by DJFreon on 02/27/24 at 22:27:44 I wish I could do that! At least it's almost glue up time. A day to paint and dry... moving...installing driver... can't wait!

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by DJFreon on 02/28/24 at 18:46:28 Hi Donnie, Are you still planning on building a set of DFH's?

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Donnie on 02/29/24 at 09:56:45 DJ, I am still thinking of building myself a pair here in a few months. My idea at this time is to perhaps use a different driver, well, just because. Maybe a coaxial driver because they seem to have my attention right now. I need something to keep myself occupied!

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by DJFreon on 02/29/24 at 18:20:24 Donnie, What driver are you considering?

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by DJFreon on 03/07/24 at 11:13:58

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Same Old DD on 03/07/24 at 21:58:22 Looks great DJ. Are your enclosures all MDF or is that nice plywood clamp up a part of these? I might be a little jealous. My project is moving along like two snails snorting salt. Very slowly. I can't wait to see one of these built "in the wild" and be profoundly successful.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by DJFreon on 03/08/24 at 11:04:16 The DFH are coming along. They are made of MFD with a (for now) plywood baffle. The MDF was cut on a new Bessie CNC machine and assembled by me and my cabinet builder. The first unit took awhile to figure out and the second unit was glued up in 3 hours. Steve's prints are very good but I will send him some suggestions to modify the prints for easier assembly.  The speaker baffle could be better if made with 1" material because the P-10 driver is pretty heavy. TIP: When installing the threaded inserts in the baffle, use a drill press to make sure they go in straight.  I think I will make another set with round stone baffles. So, today is the final paint. We will not use the "SkufX" as planned but a fine oil base matte black. These cabinets will be very good I think because we just tap the "tree stump pillow"  inside and hear a lovely thump emanating from the horn opening. These boxes are wooden amplifiers! I encourage people dreaming of building these to do it, it's very satisfying and I'm almost sad that the building process is complete. We will test them with a UFO in the shop. My shop people are not permitted to listen to musical instruments, only acapella gospel singing, so I have to find some of that type of music. All in all, I'm very excited in this exercise in obsession.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by 1stwattlife on 03/08/24 at 21:33:25 Being intimately familiar with the aptly named "head wreckers" I am super stoked to get your impressions. I feel like this will be a fantastic cabinet to have around for a long time. If "Carpentry is the art of building dreams with wood" then you are well on your way to dreamland. ;)

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 03/09/24 at 03:32:47 Congratulations!  They look well executed. Steve :)

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Steve Deckert on 03/09/24 at 03:35:07 We are missing a piece in the first bend of the horn flare! It is piece "I". It h as to be there or the response will be terrible.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by DJFreon on 03/09/24 at 11:51:48 Steve, Thank you for noticing. I will check. If missing, I hop I can get that "I" piece in there!

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by 4krow on 03/09/24 at 16:52:39 In such a case it (piece I) may have to be cut into two pieces to allow it fit easier into that tight space.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by DJFreon on 03/09/24 at 22:25:02 Yes, I pray it will fit without too much fuss.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by DJFreon on 03/12/24 at 21:35:53 The first reflector wedge "I" went in with no trouble! Final Paint today. Drivers fit well. Should be able to test play early next week. Steve's go me crazy talking about a new better driver.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by JBzen on 03/13/24 at 13:18:08 Excellent work DJFreon. Nice shop too. Don't let Steve's adventures get under your skin! It just his foresight in design that leads to improvements....hopefully anyways.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by 1stwattlife on 03/13/24 at 16:07:55 These DIY builds are exciting! These cabinets sound amazing in the Decware listening room.... but, when it is in YOUR home... yeah, you know... Keep on keeping on guys!

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Mamu on 03/16/25 at 03:29:20 To be honest, didn’t think I would be able to complete this project on my own in my small garage, but finally, I am at finish line. Body – MDF veneered in American walnut Baffle – Solid American walnut timber

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Bottlehead on 03/16/25 at 03:44:19 Wow, Mamu! You built those in THAT space? Great job. Randy

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Donnie on 03/16/25 at 04:06:14 I now have speaker envy!

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Alex Scott on 03/17/25 at 02:03:46 Bit of a newb here. Just got set up with CNC access at my local makerspace and I'm considering this build. I want to ask if someone could help answer a couple questions for me: -Is there a reason for choosing MDF over Baltic Birch Plywood? From my limited knowledge BBPly is superior? -Is this too much speaker for a 14x14' room with 8' ceiling? At best I can make an 9' triangle from listening position to speakers. -Anyone have any luck building a DIY gizmo 2? Internals looks pretty simple, seems like a quick way to save close to $1k. Thank you!

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by HockessinKid on 03/17/25 at 13:24:12 Alex Welcome to the Decware Forum. Several posters are speaker builders, but I am not one of them, unfortunately 😄. With that said I can offer some insights that might be helpful to your journey. Let's start with your listening room of 14'x14'. Square rooms are notorious for wreaking havoc with a systems frequency response. The main problem with square rooms is that resonances across the width of the room will result in peaks & nulls at the same frequencies as resonances along the length of the room. For example: subwoofers are placed to get rid of a null at 35Hz but that null still shows up in measurements. That's because the placement might have fixed the width mode at 35Hz but it didn't fix the length mode at that same frequency. I suggest you look into this issue carefully and check out reputable companies that can help you with treatment options. Whichever way you go with your speaker build selection, you'll likely benefit from treating your room to address likely issues. On the folded horn selection you might check with Steve to see whether a folded horn design with your amp & source equipment will work in your small room. FWIW I have a small listening room 13.5'x15.5' with a Decware ZMA amp and CSP3 preamp plus good source equipment. I have found the Caintuck Audio hardwood open baffle design with the Lii Audio F15 drivers produce the most accurate sound. I have treated my room with inexpensive hard foam diffuser panels to address the rear firing sound waves created by the open baffle design. Many forum members have built there own baffles (all sorts of materials - butcher block, plywood, etc.) with good results. Just some additional fodder for your consideration. Best wishes for your musical journey. HK

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Alex Scott on 03/17/25 at 17:36:29 HockessinKid Thanks for the feedback. Do you have any recommended literature about the room response? This seems like something I need to educate myself on. I did consider the Caintuck open baffles and emailed Randy not too long ago. I was considering that as a cheaper and faster setup while I looked into building something more elaborate. I've been considering a No.2155 build from Joseph Crowe Audio or a Lowther Acousta PM6 build as well. I bought a used SE84UFO2 and just sent it to Decware for service (fingers crossed it's in good shape). I guess the main thing with the Caintuck baffles seemed like the design was made for that small Betsy driver, the baffle just looks too lean after boring all the wood out needed to accommodate the Lii 15. If anything I'm considering building the Zen Master which maintains the original proportions (or at least the zen medium)

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Donnie on 03/17/25 at 17:43:22 Alex, I have built a speaker or two through the years and hopefully I can answer why MDF is recommended. MDF machines better than ply, you won't have near as much problem with blow out of you cuts because MDF doesn't have grain. Speaking of grain, you don't have the problem of lining up your grain while you cut it so that your finished piece isn't a patchwork of mismatched grain. MDF is deader sounding, it absorbs vibrations better. It also takes paint better and veneers better. Also, and this is probably the biggest thing, MDF is cheaper. Since this is your first project and you are planning on using a CNC, well you are going to make mistakes, might as well use cheap material. I was in the CNC business for 46 years and I will guarantee mistakes will be made! Lately I've been working more with solid wood, but that is more for the challenge. Hopefully this helps you out.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Alex Scott on 03/17/25 at 17:54:30 Thanks Donnie. All that makes sense. I just did a bit of searching on diyAUDIO and it's looking like a debate on chicken and the egg. I suppose a less controversial question is: Are the two materials interchangeable, or will building this in plywood throw off the end result (since original design is using MDF)?

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by HockessinKid on 03/17/25 at 18:00:31 Alex, Here is a link to some good initial video tutorials from GIK: https://www.gikacoustics.com/educational-videos/ HK

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by CAJames on 03/17/25 at 18:22:48 Welcome Alex, and congratulations on your UFO2. I have a room similar in size to yours and IMO these speakers are too big, maybe way too big. I’m curious what about them appeals to you? You can see my gear in my sig but I will say that while recreating a Who concert in my listening room isn’t a priority my 6 1/2 single driver stand mounted monitors can blow the roof off when I’m in that kind of mood. My listening priorities are things like detail and transparency, which may not line up with what you’re looking for (why a UFO amp in that case?) but I feel like you’d be better served with a physically smaller speaker.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Kamran on 03/18/25 at 02:13:42 Welcome to the forum Alex. I agree with James—the Headwreckers, might be too much speaker for your room. They actually sounded better last year placed outside vs. the year before last, in Steve’s listening room! You can probably get away with the medium size Zen Master baffles, but might run in to size issues with the largest one. Definitely spring for treatment—-GIK offers a free consult.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Alex Scott on 03/18/25 at 05:04:21 Kamram and CAJames, Thanks for the advice. I will definitely check of GIK for more, this hobby never ceases to offer new learning experiences. The Headwrecker is appealing because it's a FRSD that goes to to 30Hz, likely eliminating need for a sub, and comes with a detailed project plan, forum support/walkthrough, and Steve seems to really dig them (which counts for something in my book). I suppose they may be too large for my room, I don't intent to recreate a Who concert but I do love really blasting Daft Punk from time to time. The Zen medium was another option, albeit the woodworking is a different animal than gluing up plywood/MDF cuts.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Gilf on 03/18/25 at 13:46:58 Greeting, Alex, and welcome to the forums. I agree with all that has been said here already. After hearing the headwreckers at Decfest I would say they are too much for the space you have. They are huge, physically, plus they may be full range single drivers but the dimensions of your room will make it hard to fully realize that low end anyway because the low frequency waves are physically longer than your space. Donnie makes good points about Mdf. I think there is something to be said about using some woods in speakers for their timbre but that is something you would have to play with over time to apply correctly and appreciate. Have you thought about the Decware DNA2 or the plans on the Lii website for their fast8, or some of the other speakers? Many of the Lii speakers show free plans that are similar in design to the headwrecker but smaller in size and more accommodating to your space.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by CAJames on 03/18/25 at 22:07:33 FWIW if I had woodworking skills, which I don’t, and wanted to build speakers for my room I’d look at the HDT speakers.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Donnie on 03/19/25 at 04:14:16 Heck if I was starting to build speakers I’d clone myself a pair of DM945’s. They are a great starting point to get your feet wet. If someone asked me nice I might have a set of drawings floating around my computer.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by 4krow on 03/19/25 at 23:26:21 Donnie, I agree about the workability of MDF and even Corian (which I hate the smell of when cutting). One thing that sits on my mind is how nasty MDF is to router bits and the like. They certainly aren't cheap, and I do my best to select a 'good' speed for them to run as well as the right cutting speed. Having said that, I usually am working with some sort of cover of solid wood over the MDF cabinet just to make things heavier, heh heh. i even reverse cut with the router when I am near a corner for the reason that you mentioned about wood, especially plywood! Nothing like that little piece that you can't replace just zinging across the shop. Now if I were a rich man, some kind of perfect material would be used regardless of price, but for now, it's almost always the usual.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Alex Scott on 03/20/25 at 05:38:14 Hey y'all, Thanks for all the input, looks like the consensus is these are too big for my space. I'll give a look at the HDtv and DNA speakers, the Zen Medium have also been on my short list. Still not totally sure what parameters constitute too big, one comment was wavelength of the base frequencies being bigger than the room. Going to dig into this some more and learn about room modes etc. but still not sure what exactly makes a speaker "too big" eg. driver size, frequency response, physical size. A 10" driver in a Headwrecker box is a no go, but a 15" driver in an open baffle is a green light? I'm not wanting to wear out my welcome here digressing so feel free to point me to a different thread at this point. Thanks again, Alex

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Hearafter on 03/20/25 at 17:04:36 Alex-  This is my simpleton’s take on your question.  It’s not just the driver size that is the determining factor.  The size of the driver along with the cabinet size, type of cabinet and construction details ( folded horn, mass loaded transmission line, bass reflex, open baffle) will impact the room size required. Open baffles don’t have the box to better support the bass so a larger driver can be used and they still often need additional bass support (woofer/sub) depending on room and individual sound preference. How to determine the ideal room size match to a speaker is for the experts to explain…There are others here that can get into the nitty gritty above my understanding…

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by CAJames on 03/20/25 at 18:21:09 Yes, much more the speaker size than the driver size that determines room compatibility. Generally I’m a “math guy” but I don’t have a lot of numbers to base that on, just experience with a lot of speakers in a lot of rooms. Also pianos: a console and a concert grand have the same range, but the grand is bigger and louder and needs a bigger space for the sound to come together. I feel like that is true of physicality large, loud speakers as well.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Doug on 03/21/25 at 03:32:36 Hey Alex, My listening room is approximately 13'x18'x8'.  Currently there are two pairs of rather large open baffle speakers in this space. The PAP Quintets with eight 15" woofers sound fantastic.  I've never once thought that the bass is overwhelming, lacking, or not right. They have been my main system speakers for nearly seven years now.  The bass is really good. I also have a pair of ZF15L speakers in the room.  The same can be said of these great speakers.  The bass response is fantastic. Prior to the Quintets I had Zu Audio Definitions which now sell for $25,000 a pair.  Being a box speaker, the bass was horrible--very boomy and unpredictable from one recording to the next.  Prior to that I had the original Azzolina Audio Gran Sferas, that used a modified La Scala bass cabinet that combined a folded horn design with bass reflex.  The bass response was far better than the Definitions, but still boomy and simply too much for the room.  Our family room speakers, old Soliloquy 5.3s with 6" woofers in bass reflex cabs, have also spent some time in the listening room.  Talk about boomy out of control bass! So, in my room, whether using two 15" OB woofers, or eight 15" OB woofers, bass response is great.  I'm one of those guys that will never go back to box speakers.  OB bass is so natural and real sounding.....even in a small room.

Title: Re: New DECWARE Folded Horn Post by Mamu on 04/03/25 at 06:14:48 I don't normally post messages but I just could't help myself not to share. Trundled these beasts from the garage into living room. Hooked up in my system (Antipodes -> Chord Cutest -> SE84UFO25 -> CSP325) I knew mid range and top would be great, so no surprises there. The depth of BASS, on the other hand, was revelation. Sub bus testing beat literally shaking my living room; Can't stop listening to them, it is just a sheer joy; worth every bit of pain, blood and sweat that I went through making them. Thank you Steve Deckert, much appreciated

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