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https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl AUDIO FORUMS >> General Discussion and Support >> DECWARE House Speakers https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1637209185 Message started by Steve Deckert on 11/18/21 at 04:19:45 |
Title: Re: Hard Core Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos. Post by JBzen on 11/18/21 at 13:33:47 I always been a fan of designing stands/bases into a speaker project. If anyone can make multiple drivers work in a box, it be you. Good luck! John |
Title: Re: Hard Core Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos. Post by Donnie on 11/18/21 at 17:14:34 Do you need the aluminum polished? I enjoy polishing things to a mirror finish. |
Title: Re: Hard Core Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos. Post by Brian on 11/19/21 at 03:14:32 "This is about seeing things happen behind the scenes as designs are made and tested and evaluated for their merit." The fun part! Thanks Steve, for including us. I enjoy these ride alongs on the process. Brian |
Title: Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos. Post by Steve Deckert on 11/21/21 at 02:45:27 Quote:
The process is what teaches. I have no idea what I'm about to learn... do you? So, yea, why not share it! This design is about high mass. So starting from the ground up, lets have some high-mass threaded spikes that can support some real weight : ) ![]() Eight custom machined spikes... $$$ ![]() Here is one installed in the upside-down steel stand to make it easier to see. And here is what the stand looks like right side up... ![]() I had it made with the DECWARE LOUDSPEAKERS badge machined flush into the surface. 7/16" steel plate, no worries about being thick enough : ) ![]() With a lot of luck, I may be able to get the black base coat on the cabinets tomorrow... They have been a lot more than I bargained for because of the shape. The shape requires a lot of hand work getting the radius and round overs to look right. It was good and then the bondo cured and shrunk leaving it wavy in places so I am having to redo it. Crap I can barely lift them because they are so thick. Actually I can barely lift the stand. I'm going for extreme focus and refinement which is what attracted to me to this driver compliment. This reminds me of a time (27 years ago) when I knew a lot less than I do now, but still managed to turn Lonely Raven to stone in my listening room. A lot of that was the room, but the cabinets I built for the speakers in that room were co-mass-layer damped with 76 internal braces that were placed using accelerometers on the cabinet walls to measure resonance at every frequency and at every location to find the hot spots. The resulting cabinet was dead and it used a top of the line Scan Speak tweeter at the time. I know Lonely Raven remembers the experience... well FWIW these new speakers will shame those things right under the rug... in fact I expect those original speakers will eventually take themselves out to the burn pile voluntarily out of humiliation... but at least they were built with great precision. And the Zen TORII MONO's are beaming with anticipation : ). It will be good to see them have a purpose in life here in the Decware Listening Room where the low power stuff dominates. - Steve |
Title: Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos. Post by Steve Deckert on 11/27/21 at 02:12:35 Quote:
![]() It's this masochistic ignorance that drives me to do so many things, and then stubborn tenacity that makes me finish. I'm pretty sure this is the secret to DECWARE. Actually, the remainder of this story is going to be another fine example of masochistic ignorance... because after all what is the fun in actually thinking something all the way through! -Steve |
Title: Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos. Post by Steve Deckert on 11/27/21 at 03:15:58 OK, Before we go on with this speaker design thread, it's time for some B A C K S T O R Y !!! With all the attention that came with recent reviews and two Stereophile Class A ratings Decware is drawing the attention of a lot of new people. Because of this I have been pondering a way to better demo our Zen TORII Monoblocks to potential customers. The problem is this... everything in our listening room, some almost 20 pair of speakers that can be pulled for demo at any time are all basically high efficiency. There are really no stereotypical high end hifi speakers in the house that would need the TORII Monos to drive. A customer who would be looking at our TORII MONO's would have something like Wilsons, Sonus Faber, Focals, Magico or Gamut... all five figure speakers with 86dB ave. sensitivity. When he or she comes here they won't be able to bring their speakers with, because they can't lift them. Having a similar speaker here would give them some familiar territory and more confidence in the amps ability to drive their own speakers at home. As it is, hooking these 60 watt amps up to most of our speakers tells you very little because a 2.3 watt amplifier can drive them fine. I think you can get my drift here... Problem is, buying any of the aforementioned speakers would only create conflict because -- why weren't they Decware speakers -- or why is Decware using Focal to demo with... are their own speakers not up to the task? SO I HAD THIS IDEA - lets come up with a speaker design using familiar components that would solve the problem without branding conflicts... and off I went. I decided on the Scan speak driver compliment listed at the top of this thread because those particular drivers spoke to me during my online research and ScanSpeak was a favorite of mine some 30 years ago when I first got serious about speaker design but had not yet discovered 2.3 watts. As far as I can tell, this midrange is going to be unbeatable... when you look at the design of it and the materials. As I was working out possibilities for cabinets and doing searches on the drivers to see what others have done, I ran into the most drop dead gorgeous speaker I think I have ever seen and it was actually using this exact driver compliment. Well the artist in me took over and stole all reason from this point forward. It's a lot like falling in love with the worse possible women you could have ever picked... if only during those moments you could have actually heard your higher self screaming at you "DON'T DO IT !" |
Title: Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos. Post by Steve Deckert on 11/27/21 at 03:38:16 So I will plead in my own defense with exhibit A. ![]() I saw this with the machined aluminum baffles and I couldn't sleep. I mean look at them... and here is a speaker using my driver compliment that is unbranded and available for custom order for around $8K with the stands, shipping included. This would really solve my dilemma... a brand-less speaker that we can have custom built-to-order with any brand we want on it... Yea, if life could be that easy everyone would still be alive... right? (voice of reason) Right. But the lust and the curiosity and the price... It would actually cost me that much to make them myself if you factor in my time and this way I wouldn't have to do anything. Hell if they were great I could order more : ) So I rationalized myself back to sleep night after night until I had a F-IT moment which means shit or get off the pot, so I just pulled the trigger on it. In all honesty CURIOSITY WAS SO OVERWHELMING that I couldn't stand it. I knew that even if it didn't sound good, with those drivers I could make it sound good, and still wouldn't have to dick with making the stand and enclosure. I mean we have 1000 amps on order, and every spare minute I have is training my QC replacement who I am excited to say is really KICKING ASS - he is so damn good that by the time he learns something he'll be deadly. So feeling pretty proud of myself for potentially conquering this mountain in nearly a weeks time, I waited for delivery some months later. Due to cost increases from current day events, I had to add more shipping funds to get it here which only added $2500 not including duties which were $400. Now the 7K speaker with less than 2K shipping has turned into an over 11K speakers. |
Title: Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos. Post by Steve Deckert on 11/27/21 at 06:30:40 See this is why I was so attracted to having someone else do it ; ) |
Title: Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos. Post by Donnie on 11/27/21 at 13:08:19 Steve, Just think of the sanding as a Zen moment! One takes the high points to meet the low points, gaining unity. A small piece of perfection then spreads out and takes over the project! Life starts out as a big mess and you take control of it and make it yours, such is your speaker project. I polished a intake manifold for my plant manager a few years ago. When I started out the possibility of it turning out well was questionable. But I kept doing what was in front of me that day and eventually I achieved what I wanted from the project. ![]() What you call your stubborn nature is your ability to take that little spot of perfection and make it bigger and bigger every day. I can't wait to hear these speakers, they are going to be world beaters after you spread your perfection over them. The bad thing about perfection is that it doesn't exist! But it sure is fun chasing it. |
Title: Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos. Post by Tommy Freefall on 11/27/21 at 19:00:43 The speaker in the photo Steve posted and labeled Exhibit A is one of - if not the - most beautiful I’ve ever seen. I would love to see that same aesthetic offered in the Tube Tot speaker. Maybe a SE - special edition version. I’d definitely pay more for that. |
Title: Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos. Post by Brian on 11/28/21 at 01:26:42 It is amazing what some people will pull. I often can not understand how they can have so little self respect. I hope it will go well from here. Brian |
Title: Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos. Post by Donnie on 12/04/21 at 03:06:33 The price of perfection is high! I don't feel like the Lone Ranger anymore. Sanding off all of the paint and starting over has been a long time Modus Operandi of mine. |
Title: Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos. Post by Donnie on 12/04/21 at 03:15:30 Watch this guy if you really want the paint to be perfect. It is all in the polishing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEY-hyXkJKg |
Title: Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos. Post by Brian on 12/05/21 at 03:28:20 You are making the speakers look great! Brian |
Title: Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos. Post by Steve Deckert on 12/05/21 at 04:37:32 The speakers have to look great, they have their own energy that demands it. I believe it's call sacred geometry. But, yes thank-you for the kind words. We will restore this pair to the glory of the pair in the picture that the original maker created only I suspect the interior execution will be far better than the original when we're done. The crossovers are another chapter coming up soon. Steve |
Title: Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos. Post by Archie on 12/05/21 at 07:00:56 Steve, I've read this thread twice but I'm still confused. I take it that you saw these speakers and hoped they'd be speakers that you could maybe tweak and brand as Decware speakers. So what happened? What you received and paid a fortune for seem like crap -- at least the workmanship. At this point are you just trying to see if they can be the model for a whole new build? You're killing yourself to makeover this pair and I don't see this as a basis for the next pair -- if these turn out to be all you hope. Or did I miss something? |
Title: Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos. Post by JBzen on 12/05/21 at 14:24:13 I must admit those speakers look very good in exhibit A and after extensive rework of the pair you received, the result will be just as good looking and better. That is what drives the do it yourself in us by obtaining something that appeals to us and finding fault then making it right. Looking forward to the crossover work. [smiley=beer.gif] John For you Archie, a link to what info found on the web for the 'book shelf speakers'. I really do like the stands. Seems Steve did not have to mess with them! https://m.aliexpress.com/item/1005002413466603.html?trace=wwwdetail2mobilesitedetail&_randl_currency=USD&_randl_shipto=US&src=google&aff_fcid=4609dd82a2a34282bcbfee658692288b-1638712239828-00449-UneMJZVf&aff_fsk=UneMJZVf&aff_platform=aaf&sk=UneMJZVf&aff_trace_key=4609dd82a2a34282bcbfee658692288b-1638712239828-00449-UneMJZVf&terminal_id=a5084e0798f34404a6441e86688cdf51 |
Title: Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos. Post by Steve Deckert on 12/05/21 at 16:09:20 Quote:
These speakers were offered to us already branded if we want them. As you can see, the workmanship was not acceptable. This satisfied my curiosity. I now know that it would not be possible to have these speakers built by this company. If it's not Bob Z., or my local wood worker, it's not going to happen. So at this point, I am just trying to salvage the investment for my own personal pair which I can still use to demo our TORII MONO's. Perhaps I will be so taken with the end result that when all is said and done I will consider manufacturing something similar. Time will tell. |
Title: Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos. Post by GroovySauce on 12/05/21 at 17:10:14 This is DECWARE research and development. Steve shares the successes and learning experiences openly on the forums. The creative process can take a bunch of wild turns before the final product is finished or scrapped. The lessons learned from this adventure will benefit DECWARE products for years to come. I really enjoy reading through Steve's development threads. It's also a great selling tool. |
Title: Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos. Post by Archie on 12/05/21 at 18:07:25 Thanks Steve. That's kind of what I thought then. What a shame some people either can't see quality or think the customer can't. Watching your process makes me appreciate my high gloss piano even more. |
Title: Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos. Post by Archie on 12/05/21 at 18:38:10 Quote:
I guess you never know until you try but I'm a weak stomached gambler! :-/ Those stands are really nice though. When Steve first showed them I thought he designed and built them and I sort of just went, "Wow!". My iron guy is good but he couldn't pull them off. |
Title: Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos. Post by hdrider on 12/05/21 at 18:53:54 Fantastic thread Steve! This is what has made Decware products in a class by them selves and Steve a designer without peer. Amazing read, really amazing. All written while our Decware / Omega system is producing fantastic music. Thanks Steve. |
Title: Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos. Post by Steve Deckert on 12/08/21 at 02:35:47 Quote:
The stands are really nice. A great design with a lot of mass and made from stainless steel. The only thing I had to do to those was re-paint them. They came with a high gloss finish full of defects/dirt. With a good finish, the stands are easily worth a few grand by themselves. |
Title: Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos. Post by Steve Deckert on 12/08/21 at 02:48:01 I have constructed the solid Bolivian Rosewood frames and while I wait for clear coats to cure and before I get into the crossovers and other stuff, I want to say that a lot of effort went into building these speakers by the manufacturer before I got ahold of them and the design is very solid. It's not a factory built speaker, like Focal for example, but rather just built one or two pair at a time. This pair was no doubt built with pride and I do not believe there was any lack of caring about the result. There were just a few mistakes along the way, and the poor paintwork and soldering undermines the quality. While not happy about it certainly, I have seen the actual shop when this pair was built and it's not the tiny dream shop that I have -- so on many levels the work was very impressive. |
Title: Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos. Post by Steve Deckert on 12/08/21 at 03:42:38 Some of these coils actually shunt to ground so they are not in series with the drivers. This gave me pause because it seems like a decent opportunity to save some money on parts, and I think it is, however I realized that any inadequacies of the cheap parts ability to complete the shunt vs a better part will get reflected back to the coil in the driver itself and that will effect the sound. If the parts are matched across the board, this possibility is eliminated and since the theme of this speaker is extreme and it is used to demo amplifiers... |
Title: Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos. Post by Brian on 12/08/21 at 04:05:07 "This pair was no doubt built with pride and I do not believe there was any lack of caring about the result. There were just a few mistakes along the way" In that case, I apologize to the maker for my earlier unkind remarks. I spoke without knowing. Brian |
Title: Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos. Post by Archie on 12/08/21 at 06:05:55 Quote:
You're both way more generous than I am. Given the original pictures and what Steve received, I'd call that a "bait and switch." If sound is all that's important then there sure are better ways to go then a half-assed job at something nice. This is an interesting thread but those guys need to give at least a 50% refund and an apology! |
Title: Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos. Post by JBzen on 12/08/21 at 09:46:03 Quote:
This is key here. I think when the speakers left the hands of the builder in good shape the trip to Decware was not forgiving and left it's mark for Steve's precision eraser. Those crossovers look like something I came up at the turn of the century as far as component count. I think you will combine components in your listening sessions. I'll have to find some pictures of my abominations [smiley=icqlite27.png] John |
Title: Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos. Post by JBzen on 12/08/21 at 11:36:58 As you can see below the crossover is suspended in a tube buried in sand contained in the stand. The component count was trimmed down to 9 by another designer with better sound. ![]() ![]() John |
Title: Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos. Post by Steve Deckert on 12/08/21 at 17:39:49 Archie, I'm not happy about it and don't worry it's not over yet. I am being generous towards the builders, but not the sellers. I think the original picture may even be a Computer Generated Model. I will test the merit of their honor by asking them to change the ad by using pictures of the actual speakers they made me so that buyers can see what they will actually get. I know I would have passed. Also, had the shipping been listed at $3500+ like it is now, I would have also passed. If the speakers actually matched the pictures and the original price, I could have sold at minimum several pair a year which is a lot more than they will sell, so they cut their own foot off. Steve |
Title: Re: Hardcore Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos. Post by Archie on 12/08/21 at 20:50:18 When your done they will be magnificent. Our time is always a revelation though. I had some exterior full-lite French doors that had rotted and given the price of new doors I decided to make my own out of 8/4 African Mahogany. They came out beautiful and at half the price -- for materials and cutters. If I add my week+ labor, forget it! lol |
Title: Re: High Dollar Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.. Post by Steve Deckert on 12/12/21 at 03:08:12 When I'm done... it seems like it's never going to happen : ) |
Title: Re: High Dollar Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.. Post by Steve Deckert on 12/12/21 at 03:14:11 ![]() Left side is midrange crossover, right side is woofer crossover... in progress. ![]() |
Title: Re: High Dollar Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.. Post by Steve Deckert on 12/12/21 at 03:53:27 And here is one of the tweeter crossovers in progress... ![]() |
Title: Re: High Dollar Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.. Post by Brian on 12/12/21 at 03:54:51 I like the Christmas colors of the crossover! Brian |
Title: Re: High Dollar Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.. Post by PDXDrew on 12/12/21 at 04:12:22 All I can say is- Steve, you are an amazing man, and I'm glad I stumbled onto your website many years go. I look forward to the future and what you haver to bring to the audio world. |
Title: Re: High Dollar Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.. Post by Steve Deckert on 12/12/21 at 05:58:20 When you look at the wonderful design of the midrange... I would say 'perfect' design of the midrange, and then you begin to process the thickness of the cabinet baffle you realize the midrange will be loaded into essentially a tube. With a solid aluminum baffle it would have been easy to make this hole larger and or shaped to keep from getting involved with the back wave. This would have been easy to do had I thought about it before it was too late. ![]() I will have to line some of this opening with felt to partially fix this oversight. It looks like the last 3/4 inch of the baffle can be slick to help air flow due to the angle relative to the motor shape. If we were to decide to make a speaker like this for sale, there would be nothing to reflect. Even the aluminum would be machined to an angle to eliminate all reflection. Hehe, so many things I would change if we build something like this here, which is the only way I would consider doing something in this price point. We have two wood workers who make me look like the amateur I am, and this isn't a speaker that will have dozens of orders every month due to it's price so who knows what will happen. I think the sound over time calculated against the cost will be what decides. People will be shocked at it's actually size. It's bigger than the Lii Audio Crystal 10 Reference speaker! It dominates whatever room it's in. Stand mounted bookshelf speaker would be very deceptive way to market it. You will see as more pictures come in during it's completion. |
Title: Re: High Dollar Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.. Post by JBzen on 12/12/21 at 11:36:27 The speakers on the stands look great in that last shot! A bit intimidating...wicket. John |
Title: Re: High Dollar Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.. Post by Coyote on 12/12/21 at 17:21:51 Hi Steve, What an excellent tread, I certainly hope you somehow got a partial refund from the manufacturer of these speakers. I am too late for the paint but maybe not for the varnished wood. For the paint I would suggest boat paint like "brightside" For the varnish something like self leveling Epifane These are products made for boats extremely resistant and excellent finish. Great and insane amount of work! a. |
Title: Re: High Dollar Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.. Post by Archie on 12/13/21 at 05:56:27 Since you didn't miter the corners, you might have considered a dovetail or box cut. Maybe for the next pair. :) |
Title: Re: High Dollar Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.. Post by Steve Deckert on 12/14/21 at 04:40:15 ![]() |
Title: Re: High Dollar Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.. Post by Steve Deckert on 12/14/21 at 04:41:51 ![]() |
Title: Re: High Dollar Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.. Post by Coyote on 12/14/21 at 04:46:10 ...These are turning out to be absolutely beautiful. Congrats. a. |
Title: Re: High Dollar Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.. Post by Dominick on 12/14/21 at 06:24:01 Steve….What an interesting thread!! I am currently in the process of building a separate crossover box for my ERR speakers. I cannot take credit for this idea, since I borrowed it from Will who plans to build them for his HR1’s. So he deserves all the credit. For the platform that houses is the crossover network… I purchased some car audio self adhesive deadening material. After I installed it you can hear the sound of the wood has changed just by tapping on the platform. Even though the crossover box is external from the speaker, I wanted to cut down on vibrations. What’s nice about this stuff is that it will take the contour of whatever you apply to and it’s easy to apply. All you have to do is use a roller finish it up. Now I know it doesn’t have the sound deadening properties as the foam, but I have to say it does work for this application. Question… What size wire gauge were you using in the crossover network, and why did you decide to go with a silver plated copper over a pure metal? My first version of these crossover boxes are really more to just get them working so I can start breaking in my capacitors. The second build will be with a finished wood will come after I move back into my house and allow me to take my time. Also… What made you decide to go with four 5W resistors wired in parallel, as opposed to using two 10 W resistors or one 20 w resistor? I am going to start playing with resistors on my ERR speakers, so I’m curious on the reason for your choice. By the way… These speakers are drop dead gorgeous!! Dom |
Title: Re: High Dollar Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.. Post by Tommy Freefall on 12/15/21 at 03:50:55 Remember getting bedtime stories before going to sleep as a child? Steve’s late night progress posts on these speakers reminds me of those. I look forward to them each night before going to sleep... |
Title: Re: High Dollar Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.. Post by Steve Deckert on 12/16/21 at 01:30:31 Quote:
The crossover network has no wire, just part leads. The inductors are 16 gauge, so the wire leading to and from the crossover is also 16 gauge. Silver plated copper in Teflon is what I had in the shop and is generally unbeatable. That is what ZSTYX are made from. Those ceramic resistors don't sound that great, so I find that using 4 in parallel improves the sound dramatically over a single larger value, in part due to the increase in lead diameter. These are temporary until I have better quality replacements to work with. |
Title: Re: High Dollar Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.. Post by Coyote on 12/16/21 at 20:50:01 They really look greeaaat. I cannot wait to read more about how they sound and how the sound evolves over time. Alain |
Title: Re: High Dollar Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.. Post by Brian on 12/17/21 at 02:16:21 Such a grand looking speaker! As with Alain, I eagerly look forward to the listening report. With the teasers given so far, I expect the sound is going to be the new fabulous at Decware. Happy for you, Brian |
Title: Re: High Dollar Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.. Post by Steve Deckert on 12/18/21 at 04:25:57 I just heard a tiny chime sustain for 7 seconds in a track that I have listened to many times and the chime wasn't even there. A 7 second decay for something this high in frequency is extremely rare, and to reproduce it is apparently rare as well! So there you go.. this is the kind of shit you get from a small dome tweeter that cost $700 a side to hear and a Decware amp. Believe it or not I have still not installed any form of preamp and am just using a 1000.00 Cambridge CXNv2 DAC/Streamer via balanced XLR outputs connected directly the monos. It's so damn good it defies reason. Kind of makes you wonder what's going to happen with the HOLO Audio MAY DAC or a preamp or both! Tonight when I sat down here, my plan was to measure the speakers so I could see WTF was going on and deal with the stress of figuring out why I don't like it... Now I have no intension of measuring it. The sound is there. However it measures is probably what everyone should shoot for. So this speaker is actually in the same league as the single driver and other Decware speakers despite being much less efficient. I can drive them with 20 watts but the extra speed of the Zen TORII MONO's serves this speaker well. In contrast it can be a bit too fast for some of the ultra high efficiency stuff. |
Title: Re: High Dollar Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.. Post by Steve Deckert on 12/18/21 at 06:08:34 https://youtu.be/rXBk0x0p6no Here is a sneak peak at the sound of these speakers... interestingly the effect of youtube limiting and optimization is more damaging on this video than any other speaker demos we have done which is to say the extreme resolution in the top end as well as the depth of the bottom end is obviously compromised by Youtube. If you really want to hear/feel this combo for real you'll have to make a listening appointment and drive or fly to Decware at which point you will be taken well care of and if you're someone who is searching for that end game amplifier, you won't be disappointed . Steve |
Title: Re: High Dollar Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.. Post by jec3504 on 12/18/21 at 06:38:27 Thanks for the road trip Steve. |
Title: Re: High Dollar Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.. Post by Coyote on 12/18/21 at 06:43:19 like Jen said. a. :-) |
Title: Re: High Dollar Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.. Post by Tommy Freefall on 01/01/22 at 08:24:07 So, you were able to get it up on the stand after all! Nicely done! |
Title: Re: High Dollar Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.. Post by Lon on 01/01/22 at 09:39:25 Nice design for those spike replacements. I use a similar design in my systems: the VooDoo Cable Iso-Pod: ![]() These have a magnetized center, polymer bases with felt, and ceramic bearings. I find them the best I've used. |
Title: Re: High Dollar Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.. Post by Lin on 01/01/22 at 14:42:01 You need to change the power output specifications for the Taboo MK4, it says 1w into 4 ohms and 2w into 8 ohms. HEADPHONE IMPEDANCE POWER OUTPUT @ HEADPHONE JACK. Figures double into loudspeakers. 4 ohms 500 mw 8 ohms 1000 mw 16 ohms 1200 mw https://www.decware.com/newsite/TABOO.htm |
Title: Re: High Dollar Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.. Post by Lon on 01/01/22 at 16:29:02 The Taboo Mk IV really is an amazing speaker amp. That's why I recommended a full-blown voltage regulated dual mono version of the amp. . . even though I'm not able to afford one and it won't fit where I do have my Taboo (in the space behind a cadenza my wife loves and that is the only authorized audio stand or rack for the living-room). It would be a fantastic amp for many. To me the low wattage amps sound the best, and when they are "all that they can be" they are jaw-dropping. |
Title: Re: High Dollar Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.. Post by Steve Deckert on 01/23/22 at 02:53:51 UPDATE I think the crossover caps are pretty well burned-in and my biggest worry since deciding to rebuild the crossover with all new parts was what the resulting sound changes will be. I'm not naive enough to think replacing all the parts with top grade stuff is going to automatically make everything better. There are almost always tradeoffs. What I liked about the original crossover was 1) imaging. 2) smoothness 3) 1970's bass. It all added up to a detailed but forgiving sound that was warmed up by the slower bass. Interestingly, #3 was also the one thing I didn't like about the speakers since most of the single-driver stuff by comparison was more realistic sounding. So here we are. I can still remember exactly what it sounded like back in October when I first heard them. I can play it back in my mind, then and now, and reflect on the changes. 1) Imaging. Did not change, still very good. 2) Smoothness. We lost some ground here because resolution is the edge on a sharp blade. We now have a very sharp blade. So the speaker is less forgiving that it was when it had the spongey crossover parts and sloppy solder and crappy wire. 3) 1970's bass. Something I enjoyed because I haven't heard it in nearly 50 years, but pretty much totally gone now. The bass is easily twice as tight and twice as fast as it was. And as a result it no longer draws attention to itself. I find the change very refreshing and it has raised my opinion of this particular Scanspeak woofer. If I was retired and bored, two things that will never happen in my life, I would update the woofer coils in the original crossover and leave everything else alone -- except the solder and wire -- and then I would compare that to what I have now. I expect that I would probably like it as much or more because it had a touch less resolution and was more forgiving which is a way of trying to say it was slightly more musical. The current crossover is no disappointment, but my instincts I shared when I tore into the crossover were largely spot on. BTW, the final cost of two crossovers not including labor or installation was $1K. Suggesting that when you see a 3 way loudspeaker for sale at a killer price, it probably doesn't have a 1K crossover in it. So what does this higher level of performance do to an already impressive sound? Well, the final result so far seems more than worthy. I'm glad to have them, they make listening to the Zen TORII Mono's a thrill. In fact the other night while flexing the system for the first time and really seeing how far I could take it, the bass shocked me on one particular track of electronic music, it was splitting the air like a knife and I could feel the concrete slab moving - literally. I'm not kidding. That got me off pretty damn hard, I'm not going to lie because nothing has ever quite done that in this way in this room before. The only thing that has done it in a different way is the Imperial SO subs that I have in here. Some DECFEST attendees will remember what that sounded like. It was more than memorable. But this was actually better, more visceral. I was standing during this test, which is often the case because I am short enough to get away with that. But feeling the slab moving under my feet and the crack going through the space was just priceless. In fairness I should add that this was done at around midnight against the blackest of backgrounds, so the dynamic range was +10dB vs. during the day at work. It was just grazing 100dB where I was standing. This is the luxury of having a free-standing building with a listening room in it. You can rock out without pissing anyone off including your beautiful wife : ) And frankly it is the ultimate time to listen to music. I recommend it highly. To put that SPL in perspective you need to understand that it's not about SPL. It's about dynamic range. Quietest blackest (idle ear drums) to loudest and how fast the rise time is. So at this time of night the noise floor in the room is about 31dB on an A-weighted scale. That's 69dB of dynamic range, where most audio systems during the day playing streaming limited music resulting from volume wars, are lucky to have 20dB of dynamic range. My only regret was ignoring the strong urge to make the crossover external, but honestly that's only because I have more exotic caps I would like to listen to and as you saw, I buried that baby so deep that the only way to make a change is to remove all three drivers, and the binding post plate and both crossover boards in each speaker... an entire weekend. So it's obvious that the Flat Stacked Cryo Treated Beeswax bypass caps were going to be good enough I made it impossible to upgrade. It would have cost a fortune to do it in an external crossover with enclosure and the speaker cables for each driver would have made the experience cost $3K or more. I like the clean look and having it inside the speaker where I can't jack with it... ; ) so I probably made the correct decision, given the fact I have to run a business as well. Steve P.S. Back to the discussion of dynamics... It's a lot like drag racing. 20 dB of dynamic range is like a 16 second quarter mile. My moms station wagon would do that back in the 1970's. 69dB on the other hand is like being in a top fuel funny car. It had me grinning from ear to ear that's for sure. For those of you new to tubes, this is fun because there is ZERO ear fatigue or trauma. What wrecks the ear is bad harmonics from odd order distortions at high SPL. You could literally listen to this for several hours at this SPL and feel like you've never even listened to music that evening when you were done. This is important to understand. You can listen loud without consequences to your hearing when done in these conditions with these amplifiers and cables. |
Title: Re: High Dollar Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.. Post by Steve Deckert on 02/06/22 at 05:12:55 Quote:
As these continue to break-in I have to start backing away from this statement. Keep in mind I am giving them a worse case scenario by running a bone stock CXNv2 directly into the ZEN TORII MONO's. Ultra clean, ultra precise, not forgiving. At this stage that sense of ease is returning but with just insane resolution, and frankly I haven't gotten to listen to them long in the sweet spot because I keep jumping out of it shaking my head in disbelief and then I have to go walk it off. It's the image focus and surgical precision to a level I have never actually heard before that is responsible for this behavior. And being less than a fan of the bass driver from before the beginning due to it's scary looking response and lower efficiency... I have to say that the cool 1970's bass I enjoyed from a nostalgic perspective was also a let down because it in no way meshed with the midrange and tweeter on this speaker. I considered it a somewhat glaring weakness, yet it had some potential as it certainly had no issues creating deep powerful low end. Now with the new crossover, I am amazed at the transformation. It's tight now. In fact it has more or less disappeared, which is what we want. I can't hear it anymore, which is what I am used to with all of our other speakers. So I am feeling pretty good, like all the trouble was in the end worth it because I picked up another perspective on the music. I also like that they are too heavy to move so I pick up another level of reference quality that I can trust. The corner horns are the only other thing in the room that can do that and for the same reason, they can't be moved. I need more than one concrete reference in this room that never changes so I can evaluate frequency balance and imaging with great accuracy. When you have a million speakers in a room and they are always being moved, even by 1 inch, it is no longer worthy reference material and in fact becomes deceptive/counter productive. Also I am enjoying the discovery that for my in the chair listening level I can easily enjoy these speakers with either of the 20 watt TORII amplifiers. |
Title: Re: High Dollar Speaker Design for our 60 watt Monos.. Post by JBzen on 05/09/22 at 10:54:06 More posts are needed like this to put disreputable dealers in the spot light. Sorry you had to go threw the waste of time and resource. This is one good reason of using eBay and Amazon for purchases. Their policies keep the sellers honest and diligent. John |
Title: Re: DECWARE House Speakers Post by Coyote on 04/06/23 at 23:32:45 I know the tread is old but I just saw it. I feel compelled to ad the following. Asian culture is much much different than N. American culture and that is also reflected in transactions. In Asia and other part of the world, products that do not pass QC are not destroyed or sold as "B" quality. They are stacked somewhere and sold as-is as a bunch at auctions. Often this 'auction' is "by the container" i/e when a shipping container is full of 'stuff' the doors are closed and it is sent to an auctioneer. A third party buys them, repackage them and sell them, often on Ali or EBay etc. So buyer beware. That being said not all products sold on these sites are repackaged 'stuff', just do your homework. I do not think it is 'bad faith' just a different culture. Have you ever had Cheung Fun meal? It is very good. Did you know it was made with chicken feet?(EEEEuuuuu). Well the menu won't tell you, but you are suppose to know. If I am not willing to lose the money when I buy on these site I simply don't. Cheers, a. |
Title: Re: DECWARE House Speakers Post by Beehoney on 04/24/23 at 09:03:50 appreciated! |
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