Forums https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl AUDIO FORUMS >> Vinyl >> Newbie Vinyl Question https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1682290282 Message started by RisingSun on 04/23/23 at 23:51:22

Title: Newbie Vinyl Question Post by RisingSun on 04/23/23 at 23:51:22 As I posted in the ZRock2 forum, I’m auditioning a Pro-Ject Debut Pro turntable from Crutchfield.  It has a Sumiko Rainier cartridge and is going into the phono stage on an integrated amp.  I’m completely new to vinyl and have a very elaborate digital chain that sounds great.  It was my understanding that to get comparable sound quality out of vinyl would require spending several times what I spend on the digital side. Much to my surprise, the $1000 Pro-Ject sounds amazing!  Wow.  Rivals my SACD department. There is something of concern.  I bought two brand new records (as I own none), Getz/ Gilberto and Midnight Blue (Kenny Burrell).  Verve Acoustic Sounds and Blue Note Classic.  Nothing fancy, both cost about $25 new. When the stylus first makes contact with the record there’s a loud pop.  It plays normally after that. Is this initial loud pop normal?  Or is it a sign of a defect?  I went to great lengths to get the tonearm balanced exactly right - took over an hour with the Pro-Jext teeter totter system. Grateful for any insight.

Title: Re: Newbie Vinyl Question Post by chapsjon on 04/24/23 at 00:40:12 How is the stylus making initial contact with the record? If you "drop" the arm/ stylus on the record it can be quite loud as cartridges are meant to read micro grooves in the record. By design, extremely small vibrations will make noise, meaning larger vibrations on the stylus can be very loud. On some of my turntables I use the cue to drop the stylus and it will be relatively soft because it is a well adjusted hydraulic cue. On other turntables, I drop the tonearm/ stylus by hand because either the cue drops the tonearm too hard or it doesn't have a cue. It can take some practice to learn to drop the tonearm gently. If all sounds normal during play, I would bet it is a matter of adjusting your tonearm drop rather than a problem with the cartridge. You may be able to adjust your cue, move the cue lever more slowly, or be more gentle in manual cueing. The other consideration is that many turntable enthusiasts turn the volume down while cueing records because cartridges are so sensitive. In fact, my Accuphase has an attenuation button meant to be used for this purpose. I recommend taking a little more time to acclimate to turntables, cartridges, and records before returning the cartridge. In my experience, loud noises occur if these are not handled gently while playing. Best of luck!

Title: Re: Newbie Vinyl Question Post by 4krow on 04/24/23 at 00:50:36 The sound that I think that you are hearing is the stylus (needle) finding the groove.

Title: Re: Newbie Vinyl Question Post by RisingSun on 04/24/23 at 02:39:25 Thanks for the tips.  It’s a very smooth moving cue lever and lowers hydraulically down slowly.  I’ll just lower the volume when doing that, seems like a simple solution. What about aftermarket tonearm lifters?  Are those a good idea?  My only gripe about the Pro-Ject Debut Pro is that I must rush over there when the side ends.  An activity unknown to a disc spinner like myself.

Title: Re: Newbie Vinyl Question Post by Edsonic on 04/24/23 at 02:52:19 It might be partly a matter of perspective, as from normal expectations. When I was playing records the relatively minor (to me) pop was expected, and maybe it didn't come across as overly loud because of that. Also, my integrated was right beneath the TT shelf, so it was habit to have the volume down a bit, but intentionally up enough that I would hear if I badly missed. Then turn it up to volume right after the stylus was "in." Chapsjon presented a great rundown on how to get yourself in the groove of getting your cart in the groove. PS Your post entered as I was typing mine. I've looked into aftermarket lifters too, and I hope somebody who's had experience with one or two chimes in here.

Title: Re: Newbie Vinyl Question Post by Sean on 04/24/23 at 03:08:21 I have some records that pop and other don't. One big annoyance for me are the records with a lip on the edge, set the stylus down too early and it slides downhill with an evil shriek. I imagine static level, lead in groove width, etc all affect this pop on set down, after while it just becomes a normal noise. As for the end of the record pick up I use a AT6006R Safety Riser on my Mofi table. I always had auto or semi auto tables and the AT thingy works great. I chose this one because it gently raises the arm when triggered. https://www.amazon.com/Audio-Technica-AT6006R-Safety-Raiser/dp/B07HKX6WL7?source=ps-sl-shoppingads-lpcontext&ref_=fplfs&smid=A3SGNY0YCF86UV&th=1

Title: Re: Newbie Vinyl Question Post by RisingSun on 04/24/23 at 04:28:34 The AT Safety Raiser looks pretty slick, thanks for the suggestion.  Is installation easy?

Title: Re: Newbie Vinyl Question Post by Sean on 04/24/23 at 04:38:20 Install wasn’t too bad. Does take some dexterity to adjust the height and wand. Once it’s installed then you need to teach yourself to reset it every time or it will cause a skip when the tonearm bumps into it on the next play. The base sticks on with double sided tape, so it can be removed.

Title: Re: Newbie Vinyl Question Post by cmdc on 04/25/23 at 11:44:12 +1 on the AT Safety Raiser. Setup is straightforward and no longer worrying about the stylus riding the playout groove is a small blessing. As noted, you just need to teach yourself to reset the lifter at the end of each side.

Title: Re: Newbie Vinyl Question Post by RisingSun on 04/25/23 at 20:13:07 Thanks for the feedback.  The AT safety riser seems to function well and look great.  I’m auditioning the Pro-Ject Debut Pro, my first record player, and find having to rush to manually lift the stylus before it hits the label to be quite stressful! The Technics SL-1500c arrives in a few days for a comparison, and it has auto lift.  Hopefully my unit’s auto lift will work ok, seems to be a potential issue.   I like the sound of the Debut Pro with the Sumiko Rainier cartridge.  The tone arm looks first rate, and the platter seems to be of decent quality.  But the plinth and dust cover all look rather cheap which leaves a negative impression.  When I glance over at the rack, the Pro-Ject feels like it’s worth a couple hundred bucks instead of the $999 msrp.

Title: Re: Newbie Vinyl Question Post by Sean on 04/25/23 at 21:43:50 Q-up is another arm lifter out there. Never used one, videos of it look like it springs the arm up more than I’d like. At times I feel my Mofi has an underwhelming look to it. But it sounds good, so it stays for now. I had a Rega years ago, low end model. Sold it because it just had no soul. It just seemed like a slab of particle board. The new Technics 1200’s are intriguing, maybe someday.

Title: Re: Newbie Vinyl Question Post by RisingSun on 04/26/23 at 04:45:23 Yes, same thing with Pro-Ject, feels like a cheap cutting board.  The cheapest possible cutting board!

Title: Re: Newbie Vinyl Question Post by Dominick on 04/26/23 at 11:58:10 I just ordered the AT safety raiser yesterday. Well I am very diligent about lifting the stylus at the end of an album… There are plenty of times where I have gotten sidetracked and the needle hits the dead wax.  So for that reason I decided to purchase it so on those instances where I get sidetracked….at least I know my stylus is not getting damaged.   A bit expensive for what it does…but I think it’s a useful tool and probably worth it,   Dom

Title: Re: Newbie Vinyl Question Post by RisingSun on 04/26/23 at 18:10:17 Here is a more expensive alternative, the Integrity HiFi Tru Lift: https://upscaleaudio.com/products/tru-lift-automatic-tonearm-lifter?variant=2970

Title: Re: Newbie Vinyl Question Post by Dominick on 04/29/23 at 08:36:33 Just setup the AT6006R tone arm raiser on my Rega P2.  Took a little bit to find the sweet spot and fiddle with because it’s so small.   The lifter works as advertised and is made well.   The included spacers were not needed.

Title: Re: Newbie Vinyl Question Post by RisingSun on 04/30/23 at 03:29:07 Cool, looks great.  The AT6006R may very well be in my future. The Technics SL-1500c has arrived.  Compared to the Pro-Ject Debut Pro, the Technics solves the substantial look issue.  It's a battleship in comparison.  A very solid looking piece of kit.  The body seems to be plastic, but it looks like metal.  Lots of heft.  Unfortunately the auto-lift doesn't work. The problem is the included Ortofon 2M Red.  Ugh, sounds like low grade CD's.  The Pro-Ject's Sumiko Rainier sounds much, much better.  The Red is so woeful that I've lost any interest in trying the Blue stylus upgrade. I realize the Technics has a detachable head shell, but being new to this I'm not sure I'm ready to tackle installing cartridges onto head shells.  When I asked Roy Hall of Music Hall about doing that he colorfully told me "F-ing no way, don't do it.  Don't F-ing try to change the cartridge." I'm inclined to keep the Debut Pro.  Bought the iFi Zen Phono which has proved to work well with the ZRock2 and sounds excellent.

Title: Re: Newbie Vinyl Question Post by Dominick on 04/30/23 at 15:58:36 Rising sun, I started digging into upgrading my cartridge for my P2.  I read many forums and the consensus was that the Ortofon Bronze was the only one to buy…the Red and Blue did not get good reviews.   The Ortofon  black did….but that’s at a bigger price point.  Ultimately I decided that when it’s time to upgrade….I’m going to go with the Rega Yellow Exact 2.   Just some food for thought. Dom

Title: Re: Newbie Vinyl Question Post by 4krow on 04/30/23 at 17:40:25 Oh cartridges. Sigh. Like many here, I have owned my share with a huge variety of results. Now, accepting this as fact we must assume that all other aspects of the installation and compatibility issues were taken care of first. Otherwise it becomes an unfair description of a product that has been even slightly misaligned or connected to equipment that is not a good match With even all that out of the way, I certainly have had surprising results from low price to much higher priced carts ($185-$600). Where I am going with this is that a few times, I just spent too much money to get what I could have had at half the price. Case in point is the AT95SE? (I never get those last two letters quite right) cartridge that cost a whopping $185. Has a line contact stylus, and I don't think that I will ever buy another because of difficulty of set up of SRA. But the only upgrade that I would consider at this point would be a Denon103. Hopefully it matches well with my unipivot arm. Not ME, the tonearm!

Title: Re: Newbie Vinyl Question Post by RisingSun on 05/08/23 at 23:00:30 It's my hope to not go too far down the audiophile vinyl rabbit hole.  Famous last words of course. I got a few Analog Productions releases, Time Out, Norah Jones "Come Away With Me" and the Clarity Vinyl box set of Kind of Blue.  Sounds amazing on the humble Sumiko Rainier cartridge and iFi Zen Phono - really good.   I like that Sumiko offers 3 tiers above the Rainier than only require a simple change of stylus.  God willing I will go no further than that! I bought the Technics SL-1500c in part based upon the Andrew Robinson YouTube review in which he stated that with the Ortofon 2M Red and the internal phono preamp it would compete well with any turntable under $5000.  What a wildly inaccurate statement that proved to be!  It sounded literally like MP3.  The $199 iFi Zen Phono improved things significantly, but the Sumiko on the Debut Pro was far more emotionally involving. This experience pokes holes in the whole "this and that competes with this and that costing 3 times the price".  Consume hyperbole cautiously.

Title: Re: Newbie Vinyl Question Post by 4krow on 05/09/23 at 03:08:10 In the past 21/2 years, I have owned 4 phono preamps. Mostly a waste of TIME and money. Lost ground there. It is hard for me to believe that there is so much difference between A B C and D! Not soley about price either. I have also owned 3 different cartridges. 2 MM, one MI. My point would be that going back and doing it over, I would NOT have bought a kit unless it was childproof. Two of the 4 phono pre's were kits. Both good, but both a PITA in their own way. Only now after all of this time does everything sound fantastic. I am just saying not waste time and money climbing this food chain, but don't spend thousands either. Wow, I guess this is all still fresh. Now, time to get ahold some more great albums like what you mentioned and move forward.

Title: Re: Newbie Vinyl Question Post by JBzen on 05/11/23 at 11:20:25 My vinyl experience improved dramatically by adding $50 worth of copper to the mains power. It's all about synergy. Brings to mind the old saying "one man's garbage is another's treasure" 8-) John

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