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AUDIO FORUMS >> General Discussion and Support >> Decware gear + 80db of rock music
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Message started by MontanaDude on 03/30/23 at 22:00:50

Title: Decware gear + 80db of rock music
Post by MontanaDude on 03/30/23 at 22:00:50

Hi all,

I'm on the waiting list for some gear, and slowly building out my forever system. While I'm holding out for a UFO25-based system, Guttenberg's review of the Sarah gave me pause as he explicitly said that the 7w output is not quote enough for rocking out.

Here's what I'm aiming for:

PSAudio PowerPlant 12
ZMC
ZP3
CSP325
SE84UFO25
Klipsch Forte IV (sensitivity 99db)

When my girls head out, I'll sometimes want to crank it up to 75-85db: Rock, pop, rap, all of it. Am I actually going to be able to do this, or do I need to rethink my setup?

Title: Re: Decware gear + 80db of rock music
Post by CAJames on 03/30/23 at 22:25:20

First I've give you my experience with a pair of UFOs and 94 dB Omega Super Alnico Monitors in my smallish room. The short version is they totally rocked, at least for me. They had plenty of volume, dynamics and bass (down to the high 30s) to provide a satisfyingly experience for e.g. Zepplin, Floyd or ZZ Top. What they don't do is move a bunch of air to reproduce that concert experience, or give you the sub bass down below 30 Hz (which is more on the speaker than the amp). They rocked harder than my 100 watt Pass SEM (single ended MOSFET) solid state monos, and for me, that was plenty.

Now to you. I'm a math guy so I'll start with that. If you believe your Fortes are really 99 dB then the UFO25 will drive them over 102 dB at 1 meter. That should be plenty loud if you're looking for 85 dB in your listening seat. When I hear Steve G talk about "rocking out" I feel like he is talking about reproducing a concert, literally shaking the house. In his UFO review he says 2 watts won't do that but neither will 20 watts or probably 100 watts. So, IMO if you're looking to rock out sanely you'll be very happy with your UFO25.

Title: Re: Decware gear + 80db of rock music
Post by BlackBess on 03/31/23 at 05:36:54

I rarely turn the volume knob above 9 o’clock on my Willy 300R driving Klipsche Forte lV’s. And according to the app on my iPhone, I wouldn’t call 85db crankin’ it up. It should take less than 2.3 wpc to get those puppies singing, just give them room to breathe.

Title: Re: Decware gear + 80db of rock music
Post by Dominick on 03/31/23 at 06:36:16

When I watched the video and heard Guttenburg talk about rocking out and that the Sarah wouldn’t be loud enough… I kind of raised an eyebrow and felt that was somewhat of an inaccurate statement in retrospect. To me…rocking out is playing music way above normal listening levels with good bass slam with crisp detailed highs. Having played the guitar since I was young, I know when I’m playing loud, rocking out, or going explosive 🧨!! Maybe Gutenberg’s comment is meant to be taken as explosive.

I run my SE84C+ UFO 25th Anniversary mods [2.2 wpc] with my ERR’s rated at like 89/90 dB and can play classic rock at fairly loud levels….concert like…no… but way above normal listening levels. With your speakers being that efficient… I would bet that the SE84UFO25 would be able to rock out very loud…. Like CAJames said.

Dom

Title: Re: Decware gear + 80db of rock music
Post by Ghostship on 03/31/23 at 13:28:23

Steve Guttenberg has defined "rocking out" in other videos to mean 95 to 100+db "like if you were throwing a party or something, then a 40-watt amp isn't going to cut it, or even a 400-watt amp". He believes "normal" listening levels to be 65 to 75db, and "loud" to be 75 to 85db with 90db peaks.

Remember sound decreases by 6db with every doubling of distance.

With a seating distance of 3 meters from your speakers, 1 watt gives you 90db, 2 watts = 93db, and 4 watts = 96db.

At 4 meters away, one watt gives you 87db.

You should be fine with the 7-watt Sarah 300B.

Title: Re: Decware gear + 80db of rock music
Post by Rivieraranch on 03/31/23 at 13:37:49

This discussion illustrates the danger of getting hung up on one comment a reviewer makes.

I doubt that the Forte IVs are really 99db as Klipsch tends to overrate their speakers' sensitivity levels.

Title: Re: Decware gear + 80db of rock music
Post by Dominick on 03/31/23 at 16:08:56

Jim,

You are totally correct about getting hung up with what a reviewer says. And yes Klipsch is known for being generous with their numbers. Decware IMHO is more conservative. At Decfest I was talking with Bob Ziegler about my ERR’s, and he told me that while my ERR’s were advertised at 89dB… they are more like 90 to 91 dB.

Dom

Title: Re: Decware gear + 80db of rock music
Post by MontanaDude on 03/31/23 at 16:21:35

Thanks all for weighing in with some great insights, this has helped calm my nerves. Prepared to stay the course.

Title: Re: Decware gear + 80db of rock music
Post by Matchstikman on 03/31/23 at 17:13:32

I have owned different versions of Decware SE84 amps. I could get them to get loud but they didn't provide the oomph that I wanted from them and I used them with Klipsch, Silverline, Decware MG944, Omega, etc.

This is a quote from Steve:

When I want to rock out with the amp, or just play master tapes with their huge dynamic range, I use the thick hardwood Zen Master Series Open Baffles (model ZF15L) because I can pressurize the space without clipping the amp. When you can do that, you may find that SET is the holy grail for rock and metal because it takes the glare out of it. The ZF15L uses a rare 100dB speaker, so this is not the norm. You need at least 15 inch drivers. In large spaces a pair of Imperial Folded Horns would sound even better still.

Another factor is that an AC heated 300B, like Sarah, is not stone quiet, there is a small amount of hum. If you get speakers higher than 100dB sensitivity you're going to start to hear it. I choose the AC heated approach because I felt it sounded better, but most 300B amps are DC heated so they might be a better choice if you were going to get into super high efficiencies.

My old, old Blue Torii did a better job of adding weight to rock music than the SE84UFO every did, in my opinion. So, I sold the SE84UFO and kept the blue Torii.

I play and played guitar in my youth and there was a feeling you got when you struck muted guitar strings: you could feel the weight which is something I looked for from an audio amp. It took me a long time to get the sound I get now. And, I think I am done.

SET is not for everyone.
Guttenburg said the 300b was the best 300b he every heard, not the best SET he ever heard or the best amp he ever heard. As it is, Guttenburg has a thing for solid state. So, keep that in mind. He also states in one of his comments that the SE84UFO25, I think, was more transparent to him than the 300b.

In the end, it is what floats your boat that counts.

Title: Re: Decware gear + 80db of rock music
Post by Kamran on 04/01/23 at 01:08:42

MontanaDude, I also raised an eyebrow at that comment from Steve. It doesn’t align with my own testing, at least in my 13x17 room.

Last year, I used 6 wpc 6V6 tubes on my Dennis Had amp playing to my RP-8000f speakers. Klipsch rates them at 98 or 99 db sensitive and even after accounting for their supposed generosity with respect to sensitivity, it got more than satisfyingly loud in the room without clipping. I also averaged out between 75 to 85 db.

Title: Re: Decware gear + 80db of rock music
Post by bramar on 04/01/23 at 01:36:23

Quote:

My old, old Blue Torii did a better job of adding weight to rock music than the SE84UFO every did, in my opinion. So, I sold the SE84UFO and kept the blue Torii.

SET is not for everyone.

^
|
|
THIS.

Smart move.

Same experience with me.

An anemic Taboo MK 4 SEP mated to anemic 6.5” single driver Omega towers yielded anemic results for too much music that I enjoy. So necessarily out the door they went forever.

Title: Re: Decware gear + 80db of rock music
Post by Rivieraranch on 04/01/23 at 03:09:58

Guttenburg is a cartoonish cross between a mad scientist and a holdout from the 1970’s.

Title: Re: Decware gear + 80db of rock music
Post by bramar on 04/01/23 at 03:18:29

Quote:

Guttenburg is a cartoonish cross between a mad scientist and a holdout from the 1970’s.

LOL!

A dried up hippie dip

Title: Re: Decware gear + 80db of rock music
Post by MikeinMontana on 04/03/23 at 16:54:41

Welcome! You have a nice list going there for sure. We've been waiting on our build quite some time now. Maybe this fall. Some good/helpful folks here. Have a great day. Now have to get out and move more snow.. yippee ~Mike

Title: Re: Decware gear + 80db of rock music
Post by MontanaDude on 04/05/23 at 17:11:33

Thanks all... Now I'm wondering about changing my order to a Torii!

Mike In Montana, hello from Bozeman. I'm sure you can appreciate the madness of trying to figure ANY of this stuff out without a great commercial listening room within a day's drive (Audio Artisans is good for some stuff, but he's not really repping any gear I'm interested in).

Title: Re: Decware gear + 80db of rock music
Post by bramar on 04/05/23 at 21:39:20

Quote:

Thanks all... Now I'm wondering about changing my order to a Torii!

I strongly recommend you go either MK 5 or Junior v2.

I stand by this after already being there. I kick myself for initially getting the 3.2w Taboo SEP (a GREAT amp for headphones though) but am now happy as a screwed pig. The torque and drive that was missing is now in full force. The MK 5 is everything that I could have asked for, and much more….strong yet delicate.

Brad

Title: Re: Decware gear + 80db of rock music
Post by bramar on 04/06/23 at 02:48:53

MK 5 development thread here:

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1626054622%2F0#0

Title: Re: Decware gear + 80db of rock music
Post by JOMAN on 04/06/23 at 15:04:39

I've noted that there is a lot of emphasis on amp power to get weight from a system. Amp power alone will not do it. I've had low power and high power amps, the highest being a 250 watt Krell and without the source and speakers being taken into consideration it was anemic.

Let me be clear, my intention in this post is not to convince you to go with a UFO25 or MKV. It's to get you to factor in your source and speakers.

Your intended speakers are Klipsch Forte IV (If I recall). In the Klipsch Line that would not be my first choice taking into consideration what you are trying to achieve. I'd go for the Cornwalls, here's why:

Klipsch Forte IV, Freq. Resp. 38Hz with a 12" driver and a 15" passive
Klipsch Cornwalls, Freq. Resp. 34Hz with a 15" driver + larger and wider cabinet

Those specs are telling. Based on my experience I fully agree with Steves comments regarding OB and 15" drivers. I went from the Omega dual 4.5" drivers to the custom dual 8" drivers and along with the change in the source the difference was such that I no longer needed the ZRock2-A.

Based on that experience here's the next slated purchases along with my UFO25:
Source: Chord Dave with Hugo M Scaler (M scaler currently in my system with Chord Qutest))
Speakers: Once released, a pair of OB featuring two 15" drivers per side.

Once again, what I have said is not intended to support getting the UFO25 or the MKV. Whichever you go with take into consideration more than amp power alone along with any other limitations that you may have.

Title: Re: Decware gear + 80db of rock music
Post by Lon on 04/06/23 at 15:33:11

I agree with John. The amp speaker synergy is crucial and in its way can be mysterious.

I've found an amazing synergy with 3 watt Decware monoblocks and the four watt Decware SEP and my HR-1 speakers. I have two systems using HR-1 with one of these amps. And using the ZTPRE or CSP3 with Anniversary mods and a ZROCK2 I get so much weight and power that I can't use it all rocking out. (Now rocking out to me. . . may not be rocking out to others; both actual hearing and taste come into play).

I've lived with both SET and SEP and PP Decware amps and went to PP to get power I thought I needed. . . and years later realized I didn't need the power I thought I needed and that I didn't prefer the "hifiness" of the PP sound. I'm so very happy with the sound I have and sitting happily listening until my next SET potential arrives, the SEWE300B.

For me it's been proven to not be as simple as "low power" or "more power"--the way that power interacts with the speakers and the upstream components (I find these Decware heartbeats need the best source you can feed them, I've been a quest for that for 15 years or more) is what really "tells the truth."

Title: Re: Decware gear + 80db of rock music
Post by CAJames on 04/06/23 at 15:44:50

You've been keeping your new Dave secret?

But that is a discussion for a different thread....

I would say this to the OP...firstly I totally agree with Joman that you can't just look at the amp, or just watts, you need to look at the entire system, including your room. And esp. amp/speaker synergy. Rock isn't my favorite thing on the menu, but I'll order it once in a while and as I said above for me 5 UFO watts rocked harder than 100 Pass Labs solid state watts with the right speakers and front end.

But, back to you. I guess I would start with what is it about the UFO25 that made you want to order it in the first place vs. a high powered Decware amp or something else? And why are you reconsidering that now?

I'm not going to suggest either the UFO25 or something push-pull with more watts will be better for you. You can't go wrong with any Decware amp IMO. But there are strong feelings one way or the other. Many (most?) of us bought our Decware "sight unheard" and to some extent wrestled with questions like yours. In my case the question was Decware UFOs or something entirely different. Reading the forums and interacting with other posters gave me a pretty good idea that I was on the right track, and sure enough when my amps arrived they not only met but far exceeded my expectations. We're here for you and lots of posters are happy to share helpful experience and advice, but at the end of the day you've got to go with your gut.

Title: Re: Decware gear + 80db of rock music
Post by HockessinKid on 04/06/23 at 16:15:59

Agree with the many posts here regarding amp and speaker synergy. Given the current wait time, I would encourage a visit to Decware for demo session or the annual Deftest. There is nothing like comparing combinations of amplifiers and speakers I. Steve's listening room.

Granted Steve doesn't have Klipsch speakers for comparison, but you will be amazed comparing SET and PP offerings with the open baffle, HR1, and DNA 2 speakers.

HK

Title: Re: Decware gear + 80db of rock music
Post by MikeinMontana on 04/06/23 at 18:31:58

'Mike In Montana, hello from Bozeman. I'm sure you can appreciate the madness of trying to figure ANY of this stuff out without a great commercial listening room within a day's drive (Audio Artisans is good for some stuff, but he's not really repping any gear I'm interested in).'

Yeah, completely understand and appreciate alright! We are in SW Montana in the sticks. We're not all that 'peoply' and get out of cities as soon as we get into one.. ;) We're exactly where we like it! We are Klipsch people too and have owned our Chorus II's since 1998. Some might convince you to look into a different set of speakers, even before you have committed to a speaker change not even having the amp yet. Just hold on till you get the amp and go from there. Our son has those Forte IV's and loves them a LOT. Should work out like a champ....but wait to test drive em' in your home.. Take care man! ~Mike ~~saw this moon rising while looking out the bathroom window, brushing my grill. Quickly went to get the camera. Made a toothpaste mess. LOL.. anyway, I guess this was a 'Pink' full moon lastnight.

Title: Re: Decware gear + 80db of rock music
Post by jameshall on 05/05/23 at 11:26:10

You are right.

Title: Re: Decware gear + 80db of rock music
Post by jameshall on 05/05/23 at 11:27:14

You're right.

Title: Re: Decware gear + 80db of rock music
Post by JMeader on 05/05/23 at 17:46:15

Two things that impacted my amp decision:

1 How far away from your speakers is your listen position Mine 12 feet
2. How big is your room mine 17X17
3. Room cubic volume I have 10 ft walls with an additional 4 feet in a half tube ceiling

I have La Scala's 100 plus efficiency

given all the above I choose the Torri Jr V2 with Copper Bypass mod

My amp volume setting is slightly less than 50% and I easily get 90db volume at my listening position without my pre-amp in pathway

Remember Decware amps like pre-amps if you need more umph

I have a Schit Freys S ( non tube ), currently have taken it out of my system as I am getting ready to do REW and Dirac Live tests

Hope this helps & Enjoy The Music