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EQUIPMENT FORUMS >> ZEN SARAH 300B >> 300B Tubes
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Message started by Lon on 12/17/22 at 18:49:26

Title: 300B Tubes
Post by Lon on 12/17/22 at 18:49:26

There are so many options! It will be interesting to see which tubes owners will use with this amp--I'd be interested in hearing plans and impressions. I know this is jumping the gun a bit, but it won't be too long before the first production amp ships next year, maybe three months or so away perhaps (just a guess).

I plan on hopefully using the Decware discount for a pair of the Western Electric 300B tubes, and wish to receive the amp with the "no tubes" option. In the meantime I got eye fatigue reading over and over about 300B tubes available and decided to order a significantly discounted "demo" pair of the Grade A Classic 300B in blue glass from Sophia Electric. This tube was developed it seems to work in conjunction with the Aqua 274B rectifier that I truly adore and have on hand. . . so I'm going to use these to season the amp and hopefully they will sound very good. Reviews seem positive.

I'm set for the other tubes in the amp as well. I have a few pairs of 6N6P tubes I can roll, including a red-tipped pair that sound very good, as well as many other tubes I can try in those spots, and many compatible rectifiers (I'll start with the Aqua 274B) and 12AU7A types (I'm definitely going to try my best 6085 tubes). I also have different types and brands of the possible voltage regulation tubes to try out.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Doug on 12/17/22 at 22:54:11

Lon, I used a pair of Sophia Electric 2.5 volt 300B’s in my Cary 2A3SE mono blocks for nearly two years, and they created the most enjoyable sound quality I experienced with those amps.  I had the 2A3 monos for around 15 years and used many NOS and modern 2A3 tubes, but the Sophias easily bested them all.  

I’ll also add this; the WE300B’s I’m now using are phenomenal tubes.  My 300B amp came with Genalex Gold Lions and the WE’s make the Gold Lions sound like they are defective.  

I would like to try a pair of Sophias, but I have really over spent the past few years, and I need to take a purchasing break.  My reduced retirement income, along with bad financial decisions the past 40 years, has taken it’s toll on my current purchasing power.


Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Lon on 12/18/22 at 00:20:05

Good to know about the Sophia Electrics Doug. Thanks for weighing in on those and the WE300B you are using now. I hear you about the financial situations. I had a big window of spending opportunity 13 to 8 years ago or so and it has slowly closed. I made some nice purchasing decisions then that have stood me well since. . . but I have to be careful now--I too am on a fixed income for a bit til an annuity opens it up a little wider of a fix.

Here's hoping that you can get the tubes you want in time.

It seems that as I prioritize music and music equipment and don't feed other vices and have a frugal and supportive wife I have a blessed enough life, hope it can last.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Lon on 12/22/22 at 14:35:07

Got the Sophia Electric 300B Classic in blue glass in yesterday.

If only I had an amp to plug them in to! Impressive looking tubes. I now have a full complement of tubes to install in the amp when it arrives. I can rest a bit now. ;) This sort of thing is important to me. . . one of the few ways I'm OCD.


Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Tony on 12/22/22 at 15:23:53


This sort of thing is important to me. . . one of the few ways I'm OCD.

I think a lot of us can relate to that sentiment.  

Congrats Lon!  Once they find their place, let us know how they and Sarah sound!

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Lon on 12/22/22 at 15:26:00

Yes, probably most of us are OCD in some ways about our components.

Will do Tony. I'm hoping this thread will be full of impressions from others as well of the tubes they are using in the 300B amp.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Carlsbad on 01/07/23 at 16:26:39

I just put my amp order in.  I have another 300b amp in transit to me that I'll play with and evaluate some tubes.  I also have a custom amp being built so by the time Syrah is build I may not need her but you have to keep your options open.

I'll be doing some 300b tube evalations and will post my results.  The amp is a Tektron amp from italy, point to point, manual bias.  Should be pretty good as an interim.  However, if it is significantly inferior to the ZMA, it won't get much listneing time....one day at a time.

Jerry


Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Doug on 01/15/23 at 05:48:18

Following in Lon’s footsteps, I picked up a pair of Sophia Electric Classic 300B blue glass tubes at 50% off regular price. This was a demo pair that had around 100 hours of use.  Fortunately, Sue allowed me to have a one year warranty on this perfectly matched Grade A pair for a very small up charge.

The package landed on my front porch late this morning.  I brought them inside, let them come up to room temperature, removed my Western Electrics, and inserted the Sophia’s.  

My main system has been completely shut down for the past two weeks—which is a somewhat complicated and troubling story—so it took a couple of hours for all the components to fully warm up and come into their own again.  

Once the system settled in, I began listening, and boy oh boy, these Sophias are really great tubes.  I am a little surprised at just how good they are, but I shouldn’t be, because I have used a variety of Sophia power, pre, and rectifier tubes across the past decade and a half, and I have never used one that I didn’t absolutely love.  After 8 hours of listening to all kinds of music today, and knowing that these tubes will sound better and better over the coming weeks, I’m ready to say that these Sophias are serious contenders for the best 300B tubes that money can buy.  They are extremely impressive tubes!

I’ll make some direct comparisons to the Western Electrics in the coming days, but day one has shown that the Sophia Classics are the real deal.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Lon on 01/15/23 at 11:33:08

Doug,

Wow! That is what I was hoping you would find and divulge. I am eager to try out my own pair of the Classic 300B and this doesn't make the wait easier. In time I hope to have a pair of WE300B as well, and it seems as if these will be two good tubes to have! I'm eager to read your comparisons. Thanks for sharing!

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Tony on 01/15/23 at 14:32:58

Doug said:

Following in Lon’s footsteps, I picked up a pair of Sophia Electric Classic 300B blue glass tubes at 50% off regular price.

Hi  Doug,

I am trying to find out more about how you and Lon were able to make that purchase.  I logged on to the website https://sophiaelectric.com/ and found a form to enquire.  Is that the correct website?  Did you deal with a specific individual?  I have plenty of time, but I was curious.

Thanks

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Paul2 on 01/15/23 at 14:46:02

Tony,  I did the same and ordered a pair.  Easy-peasy!

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Tony on 01/15/23 at 14:59:42

Thanks for the info, Paul.  

So do I have the correct website - is that the one you used?  Did you speak with someone or do it all online?

Tony

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Paul2 on 01/15/23 at 15:24:42

You have the right site.

Just ordered online.

Over the years I have found that the advise Lon gives on tubes is better than most others.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Lon on 01/15/23 at 17:05:41

At the moment it appears they do not have demo pairs to purchase:

https://sophiaelectric.com/products/sophia-electric-grade-a-classic-300b-tubes

Perhaps Paul got the last pair.

It's possible they will have some in the future--when I ordered mine was the first time I noticed they were offering demo pairs.

I bought mine due to my experience with Sophia Electric and the fact that they are designed to work well with the Aqua 274B which I really do like.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Doug on 01/15/23 at 19:10:50

From time to time Sophia offers demo tubes, as well as tubes with strange manufacturing defects.  Besides the demo 300B pair I just picked up, I have  purchased two heavily discounted 274B rectifiers that both had the same interesting defect—a small piece of loose glass in the tube.  

With Sophia special deals, it’s one of those situations where you have to keep an eye on their website.  It’s not like trying to buy a used ZROCK2 that will be gone in a matter of minutes, but checking the Sophia website every few days is advisable.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Doug on 01/23/23 at 02:00:12

Day 9 Thoughts on Sophia Electric Classic 300B Blue Glass Tubes

In the most general sense, I find the Sophia Classics to produce a more full bodied sound than the Western Electrics. The Sophias have all the detail of the WE’s, but they are richer across the entire frequency range. The Sophias also present a slightly more forward sound stage, which makes them seem, at times, a tiny bit aggressive compared to the WE’s.

The Sophias definitely have a stronger low end than the WE’s, and in my system, on some recordings, it can be a little too much of a good thing.  On many recordings, however, it is a fantastic asset.

The full bodied sound might be characterized as greater density, which I have found to be very welcomed in recordings of singers.  As I type, a recording of Mark Padmore singing Handel arias is playing, and Mark sounds far more like a real person singing down stairs in my listening room than he has with the WE’s.  This is caused by the fullness, the density, the richness that the Sophias bring to the music.  In recordings of sopranos, this is especially apparent.

I also love how the Sophias amplify trumpets, trombones, and cymbals.  Metal bodied instruments just sound more real with the Sophias, and again, this is due to the increased density of the sound.  No one would ever describe the Sophias as sounding thin or weak.

The tendency toward aggressiveness that was mentioned above is likely the main attribute of the Sophias that makes many recordings sound more like live music than those same recordings do with the Western Electrics. But once again, on some recordings this tendency can be too much of a good thing.

By contrast, overall, I hear the WE’s as being incomparably airy, light, fast, highly resolving, and mysteriously beautiful.  And yes, there is without doubt magical and mystical beauty with the WE300B tubes that simply cannot be put into words.  After nine months with the WE’s I can state without hesitation that they have never made any recording sound unpleasant, but on occasion recordings can sound a little light or thin.

The WE’s and the Sophia Classics are each wonderful sounding tubes in their own ways.  I consider myself extremely fortunate to have experienced both.  When it comes to the Decware Sarah, I have a hunch that the Sophias will be counted among the favorite 300B tubes for many.



Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Lon on 01/23/23 at 02:04:33

I was thinking of asking you for some impressions Doug, thanks for weighing in.

Exciting! I am glad that I went for that demo pair and can honestly say. . . I can't wait to hear them! Seems as if a person is fortunate to have the Sophias AND the WE300B. . .I want to be in that club as well and hopefully will be this year. Thanks for sharing your thoughts

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by BlackBess on 01/23/23 at 05:09:36

Out of the box I’d have to say the Wathen Cryotone 300B tubes sound pretty nice. I’ll have to investigate further.


pixels on my screen




Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Kamran on 02/23/23 at 02:41:14

Lon and Doug—you guys are killing me. My god, the Sophia 300b’s look so beautiful—it’s going to be friggin hard to resist if those looks are married with an equally beautiful sound.  Not necessarily a surprising turn of events, given how Lon and I are huge fans of their 274b rectifier.

I was looking at their site yesterday and their new Classic II Grade A matched pair is $999.  While it’s comparatively cheaper then the WE, the latter gives you a 5 year warranty.  That’s the only thing that bugs me about the Sophia’s…that you pay close to top dollar with significantly less warranty.  

Might be worth an e-mail to Sue to gauge if she has any demo pairs on hand…

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Doug on 02/25/23 at 18:59:36

I should have my Western Electric 300B’s back at home this coming week, and I can’t wait to re-install them in my amp.  However, I must again state that the Sophia blue glass Classic 300B’s are great music makers.  This is especially true, seeing that they will be serving as back-up tubes to the WE300B’s.

Considering price, warranty, and sound quality, the Western Electrics are the clear winner.  Even though I have been using various Sophia tubes for many years, and have never used one that I didn’t love, I would not have paid a grand for a pair of their Classic 300B’s.  Half price? Yes!  Full price? No.  

Oh, yeah, the beauty of the blue glass is very special!  Like their 274B Aqua……killer looks!

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Lon on 02/25/23 at 19:07:19

I hope it gets there today. Congrats!

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Lon on 02/25/23 at 19:20:41

Glad that the tubes are coming back and hope that the analysis and solution is true and that you have smooth sailing going forward.

Your evaluation is not making it easy for me to wait to hear my Sophia Electric Classic 300B blue glass tubes in action!

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Mike_L on 03/19/23 at 01:32:59

There's an ad on US Audio Mart for a pair of Sophia Electric Royal Princess II tubes, asking $1200. What interests me is the mention of preference to Takatsugi (think he meant Takatsuki) 300B tubes in the description. Though the list on Takatsuki 300Bs is $2500 I see several vendors selling for $1700. I have no experience with ANY 300B tubes so am wondering if anyone has compared these to WE, Sophias or Cryotones. Things to ponder while I wait for the Sarah 300B...

Mike


Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Lon on 03/19/23 at 01:36:56

Mike, if you search the forum you'll see that Steve and Randy evaluated these tubes in the 300B Development thread and compared to a few other tubes (they really liked these) and that C.A. James has used these tubes and reviewed them favorably. There are 20 posts mentioning this tube in the forums.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Mike_L on 03/19/23 at 01:40:43

Caught me being lazy Lon! I'll check the threads - Thanks for the info!

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by CAJames on 03/19/23 at 01:44:18

Yes, I'm a big fan of the Takatsuki 300B. I got mine here for $1700:

https://www.partsconnexion.com/takatsuki-new-vacuum-tubes.html

The consensus is they don't have the "midrange magic" of the WE, but are more transparent and dynamic and linear from the low bass to the high treble.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Lon on 03/19/23 at 01:44:53

I'm lazy too, no shame or judgment! :) But using the search function will bring them up easy peasy.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Mike_L on 03/19/23 at 01:51:52

Right you are, looking at CA James assessment now in fact. I had always used the basic search utility without signing in. The search after logging in, maybe the same as the advanced search is much better.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Mike_L on 03/19/23 at 02:27:35

Thanks for the 300B comparison posts CA James. Very useful indeed! I have the Sarah ordered with "Steve picked" tubes including the 300Bs so am looking for a high end set to have on hand. Knowing me I will get one or the other, probably the Takatsuki, but then wondering about the WE will order those too. When the money runs out I'll have to stop.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by CAJames on 03/19/23 at 03:39:23

Happy to help. I'm mostly just passing along the collected wisdom of internet friends who have more 300B tubes than I have socks. They pointed me to the Takatsuki and while I have no regrets everyone has their own taste and in fact the Elrog 300B is more popular than WE and Takatsuki combined with this crew. I've posted this elsewhere but the best comparison I've seen for the 3 premium 300B brands goes like this:

WE = Etta James
Taka = Ella Fitzgerald
Elrog = Whitney Houston


Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Ghostship on 03/24/23 at 13:14:34

I am starting with a matched pair of WE300Bs and the full Cryotone bundle (https://wathenspeakers.com/store/p133/Decware_CryoTone_Tube_Bundle_for_the_Zen_Sarah%2C_SEWE300B.html) which includes:

One 12AU7-WCL with Matched Sections;
Matched Pair ECC88-WC;
Three Matched 0C2-WC Voltage Regulators;
One 5AR4-WC; and
Matched Pair 300B-WC.

I really don't anticipate rolling very much. My goal is to find the sound I'm looking for, then spend my time listening. I am buying a small collection of NOS, Chinese, and perhaps Sophia tubes to keep around for backups.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Lon on 03/24/23 at 13:23:37

You are going to have some real fun ahead! Keep us posted.

Not being as much a Wathen fan as others I have different tubes waiting for the SEWE300B when it hits here. I'm eager to try the 6N6P that Steve likes and have a really nice pair of those on hand, and I also have great NOS 12AU7 and 6922 types on hand, and am eager to try out the Sophia Electric Aqua 274B and Sophia Electric Classic 300B tubes.

The waiting is the hardest part. Especially when you have all you need to get it lit up! I'll live vicariously through you early owners and your reports.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Showme on 03/27/23 at 19:46:09

Aren’t all the top tier tubes great? More like ice cream flavors. Some like one others like another. However, the price to sample the different flavors is prohibitive for some.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by CAJames on 03/27/23 at 20:23:26


Quote:
Posted by: Showme      Posted on: Today at 11:46:09

Aren’t all the top tier tubes great? More like ice cream flavors.


Sure, at one level. But if I'm paying $1000+ for a cone I'm going to make damn sure I'm getting chocolate, not strawberry or vanilla.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Showme on 03/27/23 at 20:33:04

And how do you do that? I wish you’d send me your Takatsuki’s for a taste.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by CAJames on 03/27/23 at 21:21:40

What's your preference: midrange magic? Detail and dynamics? or something in between, some of both?

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Showme on 03/27/23 at 22:05:16

To tell you the truth I’m pretty happy with the WE300’s I have. I would guess midrange and detail are the most appealing qualities to me. High end maybe lost on me due to age. I guess I’m just curious about what tube offers “more” of the 300 mystique. Newly dabbling in it. Your input will be appreciated.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by CAJames on 03/27/23 at 22:29:36

By all accounts the WE is the last word in "300B mystique" so IMO you got it right. For me, I knew I wanted a little less mystique and a little more transparency and linearity so I was steered to the Takatsuki and I'm very happy. Of course I wonder about a WE, but not enough to actually do anything about it.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Showme on 03/27/23 at 22:49:27

I kinda thought I might be in the “right” place with the WE but like you in reverse the Takatsuki intrigued me. Thanks. Still might buy a pair as backup.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Kamran on 03/29/23 at 03:23:05

Wired article on Western Electric:

https://www.wired.com/story/one-mans-quest-to-revive-the-great-american-vacuum-tube/

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by JBzen on 03/29/23 at 10:07:22

Interesting article. I like how some politics played a role in acquisition of tooling for the upcoming WE 12AX7 producrion.
This link in the article may be of interest for tube rollers:

https://youtu.be/VaO7MmghoqA

Parallels my thoughts on tube rolling. The summary of the producer makes it clear that it is the amp designers mixture of parts that set the tone - not tubes. Tube swapping changes volume and very little tone if any.

John

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Ghostship on 03/29/23 at 12:43:23

Glenn Fricker is one of the very last people I would take the advice of when it comes to the sound quality differences of tubes. The simple fact that he's been a metal/hard rock musician for decades makes me wonder if he has any hearing left to perform critical listening. And the fact that he seems more intent on being a naysayer and vocally controversial in the metal production business, rather than an authority in tube amplification in audiophile systems.

Even if he was correct (and that's a huge "if") about tubes' ability to alter sound quality in guitar amplification...what the hell does that have to do with my stereo system? Nothing. Are we to believe that all of the tube rollers in the world are wrong, but only he is correct?

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by JBzen on 03/29/23 at 13:02:29

Ghostship,

It seems your statements are formed by conjecture.

Glenn's summary is based on his actual A/B comparison.

My ears with Samsung phone speakers confirms his test.

When I get downstairs and listen in the Charoit, I may change my position.

For now IMO, tube rolling is a lazy man's way of voicing a system.

Best

John

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by BlackBess on 03/30/23 at 05:26:37

Anyone planning to use the Elrog ER-300B for their Sarah? Does the amp come with the promised 10% off WE coupon? How about Emission Labs? Inquiring minds want to know. I will say though, both the Wathen & WE 300B tubes will be tough to beat. IMHO Ralph


Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by will on 03/30/23 at 05:36:22

From JBZen: "For now IMO, tube rolling is a lazy man's way of voicing a system."

Wow. I am amazed anyone with a good system and room can allow ideology or a video feed through a phone define "reality" about this. Really John, are you just trying to get us worked up here? :)

I didn't even bother to listen to the video you linked as the idea is so far out of my range of experience and reality.

I don't see how anyone with healthy perception and a good system/room can separate the voicing of parts and design from tubes, where tubes, by design, define so much of the sound. After all my careful modifications, my amps are more richened by more tubes, making them all sound better than before, and making more useful. But man, it is so clear here when I change any tube, and whether the change is beneficial to the whole or not, that I can't even believe I am reading this from you. I would say the opposite. If you want really refined sound in a good tube system/room, refining a system and room with tube exploration is a very powerful voicing tool.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Lon on 03/30/23 at 10:27:56

I think if you order the amp with tubes from Steve you get the coupon for the WE tubes. I'm not sure if you order the amp without tubes that you will get the coupon.


Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Lon on 03/30/23 at 10:30:15

+1 Will. I just didn't bother to respond.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by JBzen on 03/30/23 at 10:34:59

Gosh no Will. It crossed my mind that might happen when Post was tapped but not intended.

It could be the result of my limited time spent on tube rolling and that it is more desirable for me to dwell in other avenues of system refinement before spending time with tubes.

My “lazy man” phrase stemmed from conversations on this forum about different tubes by more or less the same group of folks. Seems to me it is all that is discussed by those making me wonder on what their system consists of or more so on how it is set up. Set up in a haphazard way that a tube can make so much difference? One after another those tubes change that much in the sound leads me to believe that volume might be a strong contributing factor for the change. Different tubes and tolerances between manufactures can contribute to slightly different gains which can be perceived as dark, bright, etc.

I just got done listening to Glenn’s video down here in the Chariot. The single pre tube A/B does have noticeable change in tone that was not detected with the phone speakers. When he goes into multiple pre tubes it is much harder to detect any change. Power tubes was very much the same as multiple pres.

The video’s audio was a bit overdriven. I used an I-pad with chrome cast via the Cambridge CXNv2 without the Zrock.

John

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Lon on 03/30/23 at 11:12:58

I myself am not even going to watch the video--I generally don't watch video on youtube.

If a system is resolving enough, the effects of tubes are powerful, and not just "volume" based.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by JBzen on 03/30/23 at 11:36:41

Lon,

My questions would be:

Why the need to constantly change tubes?

Can not one be content with the different sounds the artist creates?

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Lon on 03/30/23 at 12:03:02

Wow. You think that there's a baseline "that the artist creates?" given by the record companies? I don't. Progressively less so over the decades. Have you ever done any recording and mixing? Often what we have released has very little real input from the artist themselves. And even if the artist released the mix. . . the sound from any one system is going to be different from another. A Crosley turntable in front of a Crown amplifier is no more going to be a presentation of the artist's wishes than a high end turntable with an Audio Note tube amp. Each system is going to present the material differently, and who is to say which is even close to the source intention.

I would from my own experience with playing back tapes I made and mixed of bands I was involved with say that especially with Decware components one can get closer to the artists' intentions (which I'm pretty certain of, as I was involved with the performance and production) with tube-rolling more than any other method. With the flexibility a Decware system allows via tube-rolling and the contributions the tubes make in gain-riding one can get a sound that is closer to that intended (if one really knows the intention, as I can with tapes I made and mixed of performances I was a part of).

Honestly I would say if that is not evident with Decware components than more attention to power treatment and isolation may correct that. What you are endorsing goes against my experience with good tube equipment, beginning with my father's Dynaco system way back since '62.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by JBzen on 03/30/23 at 12:15:41

So in a sense you been spoiled and tube rolling gets you closer to a norm? (Spoiled is not meant in a defamatory way)

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Lon on 03/30/23 at 12:20:43

No. To use your words of "artist's intentions" tube-rolling gets me closer to the artist's intentions when playing back in the case of using these particular products in my system. Or further away. Tube-rolling and gain-riding shapes the entirety of the sound and brings it closer to the actual recording--or closer to what one can imagine the recording sounded like--or further away if that is wished (as in improving imbalances in the recording etc.). And if that can't be experienced in a Decware system something is in my opinon . . .amiss.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by JBzen on 03/30/23 at 12:24:18

Now I am a bit confused. What am I endorsing?

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Lon on 03/30/23 at 12:37:03

We're at odds on this. I've said my piece. If you hear tube-rolling as only "volume changes" all I can say is I definitely don't.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by JBzen on 03/30/23 at 12:37:47

Maybe one day there will be time to tube roll. I do not see any urgency in doing it now. The system put together in the Charoit is giving much pleasure as is. There are some improvements in the making that are based on many hours of listening and pinpointing the area that will most likely get good results.

I really don't understand the herd mentality of tube rolling.

John

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Ghostship on 03/30/23 at 12:37:54

If you purchase a Sarah 300B, whether with tubes or not, you qualify for the 10% coupon which come with a unique code for each purchaser.

There is also a 10% discount on Cryotone tubes for Decware customers, which does help take a bit of the sting out of the ~$1900 Tube Bundle price.

I ordered mine without tubes with the intent of using the Cryotone Bundle and WE300B to start out...but because there is currently a delay for the Cryotones (supply woes persist), I ordered a set of the Decware tubes too.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Lon on 03/30/23 at 12:40:42

And I for one don't understand your viewpoint. As Kurt said "So it goes."

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by JBzen on 03/30/23 at 12:42:16

Yes volume changes on my phone. Tone changes on my system with one pre tube A/B in the video.

Got to get going. Have way to much on my plate today.

Happy listening Lon.

John

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Ghostship on 03/30/23 at 12:57:00


Quote:
I really don't understand the herd mentality of tube rolling.

KBZen, I hear you.

I wouldn't consider it a "herd mentality". It is merely that tube amplifiers can be used as musical instruments. I can certainly understand the fascination with the change in sound creation that comes with each change of a tube.

Yes, that comes with a financial cost - one that is subject to tremendous inflation as the supply of true NOS tubes dwindles as well as the impact of geopolitics, global economies and manufacturing.

There is also the cost of time... critically listening to the same set of music repeatedly to distinguish the SQ differences of various tubes is a serious time sink for me...but I get why some people like it.

My preference is to develop my system to the point that I am able to hear the reproduction of music as the most realistic - subjectively based on my 54 years of experience as a musician and live music listener. Once there, I spend my time just listening in awe to track after track after track.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Lon on 03/30/23 at 13:02:26

But did you use tube-rolling to get to that point? I certainly did. And as other changes are made I revisit tube-rolling. And I have the same goal of realistic playback and spend long periods of time with basically the same complements.

Nor do I obsessively listen to things over and over to hear changes. What I do most is change a tube and listen for days as usual. When (as now) I have a component change (a DAC) generally the system needs tuning (including tube-rolling generally). I wish I didn't but I always hear improvements and find ways to make improvements and tube-rolling ends up in that mix.

Yes it can be an expense but in my case I have been doing it over 25 years and have tackle boxes full of tubes to visit and re-visit. And I don't drink or smoke or go out much so most of my mad money is spent on audio in one form or another. And I'm retired and spend more than five hours a weekday on my system.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by CAJames on 03/30/23 at 14:42:57


Quote:
Posted by: BlackBess      Posted on: Yesterday at 21:26:37

Anyone planning to use the Elrog ER-300B for their Sarah?


I know many people (who own more 300B tubes than I own socks) who like Elrog best. I've seen them referred to as "300B compatible" tubes, because the thoriated tungsten filament creates a different response than the original WE datasheet. By all accounts they have a more dynamic, more detailed sound than more traditional 300Bs. What I can for sure is they look spectacular in the dark.
 

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Ghostship on 03/30/23 at 14:59:06

Lon, yes, I certainly rolled tubes until I found the "sound", and will do so again with my Sarah. My only point was that my hobby is rolling to facilitate more listening, rather than listening to facilitate more rolling. Perhaps I'm in denial, as they say the first step in recovery is admitting you have a problem!  [smiley=lolk.gif]

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Lon on 03/30/23 at 15:22:25

Well I feel I am doing the same thing, rolling to facilitate listening, to get the clearest and most present sound which tends to lead to the most "real" musicality. I often find the tube in the ZROCK2 and the rectifiers in the monoblocks to be the most pivotal as far as moving the sound in the right direction.

And to do that often when there are other changes. I  am currently experimenting with the amazing noise-canceling properties of this new DAC--I can "life the ground" (galvanically isolate) the input and output on this DAC. I started off after about 100 hours lifting the input, and now about 200 hours in lifting the output and the "shell" of the XLR as well. It's like shedding three silk veils off the sound. And proving to me that I now have an excellent tube complement in place that just gets better with these noise removals.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by will on 03/30/23 at 18:04:33

I guess I have not been hanging on different parts of the forum where perpetual or obsessive seeming tube rolling is happening. I never even liked the phrase "tube rolling," making it sound casual and sort of perpetual, not the way I see it, more an amazing tuning tool for me. But why wouldn't it be a big topic here since many of us love Decware tube amps in part for the tune-ability.

John, I would say that tube changes are like anything else, more obvious in more resolving systems.... I get that a bad setup can contribute to the desire to tune with tubes when the main problems are elsewhere, trying to make a rough setup better. But this does not mean tube tuning is necessarily a bad way to balance and enhance (to a point) room or system issues if that is one's choice.

Obviously for the deepest and most complete presentation, more than just tubes need to be addressed... But this does not mean tubes aren't good tuning tools. I can say absolutely that here they are.

I guess I change tubes pretty often now that my system is more refined and complete, but I went for many years with the same basic tubes, and though some had to be replaced, tried hard to keep the sound balance the same since it was my reference base for modifications. It was a tube set I knew well after years of exploring tubes to get there, and settling on the set's types used, individual tubes within the types, and the combined sonic complexity of the whole. So I knew it gave me all I love in the musical balances in pretty complete and neutral ways, highly engaging, and revealing parts changes well... I would regularly cross check modification changes I settled on, using tube changes to get variations on this sound, musically pushing it in different directions, just to be sure I was staying on track with balances... but mostly I used my base set for years.

Now though, it is fun to play with finding different variants of the beauty to help me hear/feel the music better. I have a number of baseline tubes type-wise that I prefer, and some of these I change more, and others less. They all matter in notable ways, but for each position tube type choices have gotten pretty narrow for my favorite balances. And some, like my VRs, tend to stay very close to the same. But even so, I can make, to me, pretty profound changes within this narrowed down window to shake things up. Different variations of beautiful can be a really nice wakeup to the senses for me, taking me into different layers of the musical experience.

And I know the general feel of each of the tubes I have (a lot of them after so many years of exploring this or that tube trail of discovery), so my tube changes happen fast. Like I want to pull a little more mid bass edge without losing bass complexity... or it feels like one tube position adjustment might open the whole set up a bit and articulate edges and space of the whole... or a very neutral tube with a touch more power and great dynamics... or I might want more complexity and less focus... or less forcefulness with more dynamic complexity.... more or less open warmth....more or less extension... more or less fine detail and space...soften the whole without detail or articulation or speed loss, but making the set more nuanced, more complex textures and harmonics, less concentrated... and on and on in the vast potential for tuning with these very complex things, tubes.

Then, with luck, the real magic. Having a number of tubes, amazing new information can be found, sonically close shifts where a little different combinations can reveal something amazing and unexpected. Finally, the combination of all our tubes defines our particular tube sound. And how they influence each other carries the basic sonic values of the given tube type to the rest, but the rest also influence that tube type...and each individual tube within the type is generally family, but also pretty distinct sonically... Even the same very high quality tube from the same factory, same construction, etc, but a few years apart, can be similar, but different enough to choose one.

Take some common inputs for Decware amps, ECC88, ECC189, E88CC, E188CC, PCC88, PCC189, all different, but close electronically, and in many ways, sonically. But each has characteristic influence on sound that makes one or another "better" in a given setting. And each individual tube within these tube types are usually different enough that we can often identify this clearly once we get to know tubes. But some cross each others lines, so not cut and dried... likely pointing to why some NOS tubes are so sought after... they rise up high for the type, sort of going beyond type. But as much, this points to tube types within a relatively close range being useful in tube tuning, AND each tube within a type will influence the sound in its own ways.

Finally though, if using good tubes in a resolving system, whatever variations a particular tube of a particular type brings to the sound is real. And the combination of how they influence one another is calculable with experience. But the final experience is the combination of how they influence each other, often showing new things and new beauty that would be difficult to calculate. Especially when that combination is extraordinarily captivating, it teaches us about the potential for tubes to help us get into the deeper and more compelling magic we sometimes find... This part is it beyond my abilities to fully anticipate, so really fun to discover when it shows up.

So for me, no doubt that tubes have a pretty big effect within realistic musical limits. They all have to sound good to me, the "better" ones for me, revealing decent balances in extension that do not muddy the bottom or harden the top, macro and micro detail and micro and macro dynamics, plenty of the very fine detail qualities in spacial information/decays/ambience, and with this finer information, textures and harmonic complexity, "shimmer" and air.... etc etc.... These are all things each tube tends to do differently. And for me, with so many tubes, 5 positions in the Torii, 3 positions in the CSP3, and one in the Zrock, that is a lot of tubes to utilize in seeking complex and nuanced refinements and synergy toward the particular flavor of presentation I am loving at the time. With all those tubes I can tune about any musical parameter within useful limits. And having a lot of them allows complex variations for incredibly fine tuned music if one wants to explore that.

That said, a lot of tube positions aren't needed to prove this process has meaning in Steve's components. Even one tube in a system can be really powerful for tuning. Like a range of 12AU7s and variants in the ZRock2, some tubes are more similar, but it seems many more good NOS tubes from different makers and times offer us a lot of sonic variation. Depending the balances from all else in the system, this one tube can be quite powerful for system tuning. If someone who knows tubes were to pick a nice variety of say ten 12AU7 variants, and setting the ZRock2 gain for each at unity or a touch above (so that the Zrock circuit is barely "on"), this alone can tune the whole system if it is resolving and balanced, and would very likely change any conceptual ideas about tube changes not being a real tool. With a nice selection of tube variants, and ZRock2 only, it would shock me if anyone with a resolving system would not find one, or two to three of the ten that just make that system/room more right, make the music more real feeling across recordings.... just one tube in a component that uses tubes for sound tuning, like Decware, can be meaningful for slotting in a more complete sound for a system/room, and for us.

And as Lon suggested, as a system changes, changing tubes can help get the most from those refinements. Equally, adjusting other things in the system can prove/enhance a tube compliment, or open doors to playing with tubes to refine that set to better utilize the improvements of the new component, or cable, or whatever. In this example of a ZRock2, other system changes could make one prefer some of the 12AU7 variants that were originally rejected, and/or find some of the original preferences to potentially be off in some ways.

It is awesome though when the tubes one has are really satisfying. But especially if they are stock, and therefore somewhat limited due to needs for a maker to have a lot of tubes of a type, and not have them be extraordinarily costly unless as an upgrade, I would suggest that loving the stock set does not mean one couldn't love variations on that set better from introducing the right NOS tubes or really nice new tubes.

Anyway, back to the "tubes don't matter so much" video John. I feel sure in your system/room, and with your listening discernment, you would hear tube changes better than that video example implied. Maybe his amp is not as revealing of tube changes as ours, or room issues, or even the particular tubes he chose "to make his point," or who knows what. But with my Decware, way aside from minor volume shifts with tube changes, you can adjust about any kind of musical parameter you want with tubes, at least within reasonable limits. Tube adjusting can be a supple and powerful tool for potentially very complex refinement in finding all the things we crave for a more "real" presentation... and in my case, across most recordings... so everything needs to be pretty right.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by BlackBess on 03/31/23 at 04:48:32

Wow, I think I might be choosing tubes based on looks. My wife pointed to the halo glow of 0A3 tubes & wondered aloud “why don’t 300B’s look that pretty”. Does anyone know the difference between the Elrog ER300B & the ER300B-Mo besides moe money. BTW that’s a cutie IMO.




Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by CAJames on 03/31/23 at 23:05:00


Quote:
Posted by: BlackBess      Posted on: Yesterday at 20:48:32

...Does anyone know the difference between the Elrog ER300B & the ER300B-Mo besides moe money...


Yes, Mo-Money fur sur. The conventional wisdom is the Mo is the 300B on steroids. Same sound signature, but more detail, more dynamics, more frequency extension. Basically Mo-Elrog.


Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by bramar on 04/01/23 at 01:14:26

I’m enjoying my $145 pair of Guiguang tubes immensely in the Otomon 300B amp, pure heaven. I have next to no desire to spend more.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by bramar on 04/01/23 at 18:47:49

Elrog Mo. $3380 a pair. Yay!!! That there is some real funny shit

Brad

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Showme on 04/01/23 at 20:56:23

Brad, do you find the price of hi-end 300B tubes funnier than $5K cables, $300 fuses and any number of other “tweaks” for lack of a better word that some find value in? It’s just different strokes, like much of life.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by bramar on 04/01/23 at 21:25:32

I absolutely do find a pair of $3,380 300B funnier than hell. Even funnier than a $1700 or $1500 pair. I’m telling no one what to do, if they find value in it then that’s fantastic. I can still laugh out loud and I do…..hell, this one is worth months if belly laughs.

Brad

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by BlackBess on 04/01/23 at 21:46:35

Beauty is in the ear of the beekeeper. You should see how much $ I spend going to Pirates games each year. Now that’s worse than funny.



Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by CAJames on 04/07/23 at 15:25:43

FYI/FWIW here is a mini-review of the EML, WE and Elrog 300B tubes by Zack of ZMF headphones. In the context of headphone amps, but interesting none the less.

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/300b-tube-compendium.13095/#post-406640

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Lon on 04/07/23 at 16:18:50

Interesting. Thanks.

I can't wait to try out my Sophia Electric 300Bs.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Showme on 04/28/23 at 01:33:39

I’m currently running WE300B tubes but usually keep backup tubes for all slots. What’s the consensus for backups. Takasuki’s or etc. or what? Obviously there are all brands of cheap 300B’s available but I wouldn’t be looking for less than the WE’s.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by CAJames on 04/28/23 at 02:24:59

My sources (who own more 300B tubes than I own socks) say the top 3 are Elrog, WE and Takatsuki. I have Tak and couldn't be happier. The conventional wisdom is they are a little more linear than WE in the high and low end where as the WE is more midrange centric and they still have plenty of that yummy 300B goodness. The Elrog is the consensus choice of my online friends who say they sound bigger and more detailed and dynamic than the others and sweet but a little less warm. I've posted this before but the best comparison I've seen is:

WE     -> Etta James
Tak     -> Ella Fitzgerald
Elrog   -> Whitney Houston

IMO the Elrog would be the biggest changeup from the WE, the Takatsuki would be similar but different enough to be interesting. I'd love to hear your impressions if get either. FWIW the more I listen to the online chatter the more tempted I am to get a pair of Elrogs.




Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Tony on 04/28/23 at 04:52:18


Nice, to the point review of some 300b tubes with conclusion similar to CAJames.

https://v2.stereotimes.com/post/the-quick-and-dirty-300b-tube-shootout

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Bottlehead on 05/01/23 at 01:19:29

Hey Tony,

Thanks for posting this. I can't speak about the higher-end tubes, but I have both the Black Treasures and the Gold Lions. The review comments on both those tubes match my experience with them. I'm itching to try better tubes (probably Western Electric for the made in USA factor), but it's a $$ stretch for an old retired guy.

Randy

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by CAJames on 05/01/23 at 16:48:11

FWIW my amp came with (used) Gold Lion 300Bs and I wasn't impressed. I don't want to make too much of it because of their unknown provenance but my cheap Chinese tubes were better in every way. The Chinese tubes are perfectly listenable, my only actual complaint is a little bit of sibilance/hardness in the high end and I could deal with that with other auxiliary tubes. But once I heard TOTL 300Bs there was really no going back. JMO/FWIW/YMMV and all that.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Bottlehead on 05/01/23 at 22:53:56

CAJ,

You said, "But once I heard TOTL 300Bs there was really no going back".
That's what I'm afraid of. I'd say that ignorance is bliss, but in this case there are just too many guys whose opinions I respect on this forum who are knocked out by the high-end 300Bs to ignore. Budget be damned, I guess, otherwise I'd always be wondering what I was missing. Thanks for your input - on this and all the other subjects that you post about.

Randy



Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by CAJames on 05/01/23 at 23:35:40

You're very welcome Randy, I've been fortunate to receive a bunch of help and advice with audio over the years and I'm pleased that I can pay back a little bit of it.

What you describe is pretty much exactly my thought process as well. I got a sweet deal on my amp so I wound up spending as much on 300B tubes as the amp itself. I also rationalize that a high end 300B tube is literally a once in a lifetime purchase at this point...

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by JAudio441 on 08/04/23 at 16:20:11

I've been running my Sarah 300B with the WE 300B and Stock tubes from Decware for a few months now.  The 300B is driving my pair of Pearl Acoustic Sibelius (87db) speakers and has no issues driving volumes into the 90db range.  Which for me is loud and prefer levels between 75-85db for long listening session.  I can't say enough of how well this combo sounds.  The sense of scale and realism is almost unbelievable and the 3D soundstage wraps my listen position as if I was at the recording.  To say the least, this system will be with me for life.  

I recent put an order in for the CyroTone 12AU7-WCL Long Plate, ECC88-WC, 0A3-WC and 5U4GB-WC tube set to pair with my WE 300B's.  And WOWSERS!  Everything is better, realism, soundstage depth and width.  The bass is significantly better, more weight and faster attack.  And for a guy running a pair of 87db speakers, I'm getting an extra 3-5db at the same volume settings.  Overall, super happy and don't feel the desire to tube roll to find out my preferred combo.  High recommend you take a look, better yet a listen if able.  


Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Lon on 08/04/23 at 16:24:52

Thanks for weighing in! I've not had a positive enough experience with Cryotone tubes to try more, at least not yet, but I do think my tube-rolling from what I have on hand (lots of applicable tubes) has gotten me incredible sound without going  there.

Glad to know that months in you're still excited about the amp and sound. I think I will be too.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Doug on 08/05/23 at 05:02:42

Hey JAudio441,

I’m running my 300B amp with a similar tube combo—two WE300B output tubes, two Cryotone 6SN7’s as drivers, and one 6SN7 as input—and I find these two brands to play together extremely well.  Glad you’re enjoying your new Sarah so much…..wish I had one!

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by JAudio441 on 08/06/23 at 15:32:13

The WE300B and CyroTone combo is special and gets me to sit down and listen.  My cup of coffee this AM at 6 in front of the rig turned out to be a 3.5 hour session and three hungry kids wonder where Sunday breakfast was.  

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Tony on 08/06/23 at 16:48:57


Hey JAudio441,

Best Sarah review of the month! :)


Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Kamran on 08/11/23 at 03:44:30

Thanks JAudio441 for your impressions and feedback on tubes used.

Up until a few weeks ago, I was 100% sure I was getting the WE 300B in addition to the stock Chinese tubes Sarah will ship with.  Ghostship took a hammer to that wall of confidence when he sold his WE opting to tango with the Cryptone 300Bs instead.  And with multiple folks claiming good results with Cryotone tubes, I am going to need to take a closer look at what they are offering.  Here’s what I am considering:

Option 1): WE 300, the new Sophia Electric 274b rectifier, and the rest stock tubes

Option 2): Get the full bundle from Cryotone

Option 3): WE 300B and the rest from Cryotone—the most expensive option

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Kamran on 08/11/23 at 03:49:53

Actually, a follow-up question JAudio441:

The Cryotone bundle for Sarah includes

One 12AU7-WCL Matched Sections
One Pair ECC88-WC Matched
Three 0C2-WC Voltage Regulators, Matched
One 5AR4-WC
One Pair 300B-WC Matched

Was wondering why you opted for the 5U4 and OA3 instead?

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Tony on 08/11/23 at 15:10:07


Hi Kamran,

Welcome back from your travels, but with your pictures and posts, it is almost like you took us with you :)

Two questions.  You referred to.

"The Cryotone bundle for Sarah includes:

One 12AU7-WCL Matched Sections"

I cannot find an explanation of "Matched Sections." What's that?

Also, in another post you refer to the "new Sophia Electric 274b rectifier."    I found it on their website.  Is this 274b a better fit with the Decware 300b Sophia?

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by CAJames on 08/11/23 at 15:25:50


Quote:
Posted by: Tony      Posted on: Today at 07:10:07

...I cannot find an explanation of "Matched Sections." What's that?...


All the Decware input tubes like the 12AU7, 6922/6DJ8, 6N6P etc. are actually two triodes in the same tube (a vacuum tube integrated circuit if you will). Matched Sections mean both triodes are "matched" (whatever that means...).


Quote:
Posted by: Kamran      Posted on: Yesterday at 19:49:53

...Was wondering why you opted for the... OA3 instead?


I feel like that is a typo, 0A3 is an octal tube and not compatible with Sarah.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Kamran on 08/11/23 at 23:19:58

Hey Tony!

So CA James perfectly explained the matched sections. I especially loved his vacuum tube integrated circuit analogy!

As far as the Sophia is concerned, this all came about when Lon’s Aqua arced and blew a fuse on Sarah. So I reached out to Sue from Sophia Electric and got confirmation that their newer Aqua II (darker shade of blue) is a better fit.  I am reproducing her response below:

“If I understand correctly, your future 300B amplifier is a single ended design, both channels share one 5U4G rectifier. If this is the case, the original Aqua 274B (rated: max 160 ma)  may not have enough current capacity, as a result, it blows the fuse. Good news is we have a new Aqua II 274B (rated: max 220 ma) tube available which should solve the problem that the original one has.”

For more information regarding Aqua II 274B, check out here: https://sophiaelectric.com/collections/frontpage/products/new-sophia-electric-aqua-ii-274b-rectifier-tube-with-live-like-sonic-performance

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Lon on 08/11/23 at 23:38:04

I'll bet that is a great tube. I do want to reiterate though that I put in another, brand new Aqua 274B very shortly after that first one arced and I had NO problems with arcing or other problems of any kind with it since, and it's the best rectifier of a dozen or so I've tried.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Kamran on 08/17/23 at 18:21:24

Ok humor me on the Cryotone.  Not that I’ve necessarily decided to go this course, but if I were to slowly secure the Cryotone bundle over time, what is the optimal sequence from the following list:

The Rectifier tube

The Driver tubes

The Voltage Regulator Tubes

The Input Tube

The Power tubes


Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Same Old DD on 08/17/23 at 18:46:21

I do not own a 300B amplifier, so my comment should be taken with a grain of rock salt.

I have played around for years with cryo'ed tubes. Trying to find more of the magic, I have done a few of each.

I find that the rectifier makes the most immediate difference, followed by the power tubes.

With my experience, simple things remain more constant than complicated things, regardless of what other changes you make.

I would recommend rock solid rectifiers to start and go from there, no matter the amplifier platform.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by CAJames on 08/17/23 at 20:24:31


Quote:
Posted by: Same Old DD      Posted on: Today at 10:46:21

...I find that the rectifier makes the most immediate difference...


In general I agree with that. But in this case I think since 300B tubes typically take a really long time to break in that is where I would start.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Kamran on 08/17/23 at 21:28:05

Thx guys—noted.  

One of the (subliminal) reasons I had placed the power tubes as last on my list is because I’m really torn on that one.  I just don’t see myself not gunning for the WE when I upgrade from the stock Chinese tubes.  Based on reading the entire Cryotone tubes thread, I’ve warmed up to (no pun intended) for the rest of their allotment.  

Ghostship’s eloquent review (coupled with Steve’s recommendation for an alternate tube) is the only reason I’m even on the fence.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by will on 08/17/23 at 22:07:26

It all depends on so much... everything in a system and room adjusting how we perceive ideal tubes in a setting. And even then, even small seeming changes, like the VRs, or some more resolving cables, or room treatment adjustments, or whatever, can change the whole complexion of the rest.

And what are we after... some like a punched up hifi sound better... some like a more natural sound better... some are "warmth" and bass biased.... So I guess we have to read these things into each advisor's appearance of  preferences, and make assumptions based on their room and gear to really begin to get a feel about how a tube applies to us and our setting. And even with that, tricky in my book.

In all my amps, I would say all the tubes matter, and I utilize all in synchronicity to get the balances I love in this room... but agree, the rectifier is foundational, and effects them all. They all matter notably to me though, and change the sound.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by JAudio441 on 09/04/23 at 13:32:21

Apologies for my late response, I've been out with my family most of August before school picked up again.  Now that it has, I'm back into a normal routine.  

Posted by: Kamran      Posted on: 08/11/23 at 03:49:53


Quote:
Was wondering why you opted for the 5U4 and OA3 instead?


I have to admit that I'm a bit embarrassed, I did typo and I'm leveraging the OC2-WC, not the OA3.  Long story short, kid interruption when bouncing back and forth to the CyroTones site to make sure I grabbed the correct product number.  

In regard to why I opted for the 5U4, in chatting with Don from CyroTone he had mentioned he was going back on forth with Steve and making some changes to what they thought sounded better.  They have far more insight than any of us, so my response was to send me that they thought would sound best for my system.

Since my original post, I got a lot more time on the tubes and continue to be very happy with the combo.  The correctly stated combo I'm running is the WE 300B's with the CyroTone 12AU7-WCL Long Plate, ECC88-WC, OC2-WC and 5U4GB-WC tubes.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Kamran on 09/07/23 at 15:31:29

Thx for the clarification. Yea, I also noticed that they now have a new version of the rectifier tube.  Do you (or anyone else) have Don’s e-mail address. I wanted to contact him to explore my options and gauge if he’s coming to Decfest again next month.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Lon on 09/07/23 at 15:39:27

You can contact him here:

Don@wathenspeakers.com

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Kamran on 09/07/23 at 19:13:47

Thx Lon!

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Gilf on 09/08/23 at 02:20:10

The last time I talked to Don he was undergoing some serious medical treatments. It’s not my story to tell, but I would be surprised if he would be at Decfest, although I could be wrong. If he doesn’t respond immediately be patient with him. My thoughts go out to him and wish him the best.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Kamran on 09/08/23 at 03:36:25

Thx for the heads up Gilf. I wish him as well and will inquire about his health when I reach out.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Kamran on 09/10/23 at 05:45:15

We exchanged emails. Thankfully, he’s on the mend and planning to drive down next month to meet the fellow crazies. And he’s bringing goodies (more details on the Decfest thread)!

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by GroovySauce on 10/24/23 at 15:24:08

I still have a long way to go. Sitting in the high 500's on The List(TM).

I fell in love with the EML 5u4g Mesh plate. It is the sound I want. It's also a super sexy looking tube.

EML makes a few different versions of the 300b one of them is a mesh plate version. It was designed for low anode dissipation.Is this tube is compatible with the Sarah 300B?

It has a recommended anode dissipation of 22 watts and a maximum of 28 watts.

http://www.emissionlabs.com/datasheets/EML300B-mesh.html

http://www.emissionlabs.com/datasheets/EML300B-mesh-final.html



Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by CAJames on 10/24/23 at 20:35:55


Quote:
Posted by: GroovySauce      Posted on: Today at 07:24:08

...EML makes a few different versions of the 300b one of them is a mesh plate version. It was designed for low anode dissipation.Is this tube is compatible with the Sarah 300B?


Based on the last post I saw from Steve Sarah is at 28 watts and change. So, I guess the question is do you feel lucky? Of course contacting Steve would remove the guesswork.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by GroovySauce on 10/25/23 at 14:51:39


Quote:
Based on the last post I saw from Steve Sarah is at 28 watts and change. So, I guess the question is do you feel lucky? Of course contacting Steve would remove the guesswork.


Thank you. I guess when it gets closer to shipping I'll reach out to Steve and see what he says.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Lon on 10/26/23 at 21:32:18

Well shortly after I turned the amp on Monday one of my Sophia Electric Classic 300B went silent except for a hum. Didn't take out a fuse or impact the amp in any way, but I was down to one channel listening. I brought out the headphones. . . .

I contacted Sophia Electric and as I had a demo pair that was not offered with any warranty (at a big discount) I was out of luck. I figured these were demo tubes and should last longer than . . . 700 hours but that is about what I got out of that tube. They offered to try to match another tube for me at the same price (half the price of the pair) and I may take them up on that but that was going to take time and damnit I wanted to listen to music. I have a pair of Cryotone 300B-WC on order but on inquiry I can't expect those til they maybe ship next week. So. . . I ordered a rather inexpensive pair of Psvane 300B HIFI tubes, I think their lowest model.

Those arrived today and I'm listening to them now. Honestly they sound decent. Not quite as good as the Sophia Electric so far but they're also not broken in and I'm so eager to listen to speakers that I am cutting them some serious slack. Ah. I'm listening to the amp again, and that's certain happiness.

I'm looking forward to testing the Cryotone 300B-WC. If they don't knock my socks off I'll return them and order a pair of WE300B. But I think from what I have read from Steve, et al here that I'll be happy with them.

Til then I think that for about 260 a matched pair the Psvane HIFI are a good backup pair.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by CAJames on 10/27/23 at 00:18:21

I'm sorry for your loss Lon. For me, my inexpensive 300B tubes sounded fine. I probably would have been happy with them...until I tried really good 300Bs.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Lon on 10/27/23 at 00:22:11

I hear you. The Classic 300Bs sounded really good. These sound fine for now. Time to hear another pair. . . in a week or two.


Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Ghostship on 10/27/23 at 11:11:59

Lon, Sorry about the Sophia. It's been my experience that Psvane tubes sound very underwhelming when new, but really sound great once they reach their break-in point...so much so that there's no mistaking when they are or aren't broken in, lol.

And yes, I too go through serious withdrawal symptoms when I'm unable to listen to my Sarah... [smiley=icqlite21.png] Pretty sure there's a support group for us somewhere..."I'm Michael, and I'm a Sarahholic".

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Lon on 10/27/23 at 11:53:59

LOL! Well, I'm liking the sound of these Psvane right now, so if they improve that's great. (Of course with the ZBIT and the ZROCK2 I can make mediocre sound become much nicer, man I love these components.)

I actually enjoyed the headphone use. I put my trusty old CSP3 into the system that Steve built with a glass resistor bypassing the input gain section and with the full Anniversary mods--with the Sennheiser HD800S and the ZROCK2 this makes fantastic sound that transports me. But I was eager to get the SEWE300B going again, it's a special amp, it has really seduced me. My wife likes it too, more than any other amp I've played the last 9 years we've been together. . . but she's a bit jealous of how it pulls me off to listen.

I think Steve will be building and building these. They're going to call to many.

Title: Re: 300B Tubes
Post by Lon on 11/18/23 at 01:33:30

So now I have the Cryotone 300B-WC broken in and also a pair of Takatsuki 300B to check out thanks to James.

Both are excellent tubes. . . my untreated room and system seems to prefer the Cryotone as though I don't find it has the extra bass that others report, it has more than the Japanese tubes and it has a density that I had grown so used to with my SE84UFO3 Monoblocks.

Oddly I think the best tubes for my system may have been the Sophia Electric 300B Classic, but one failed so early that I haven't sought another pair. Those had an extra richness that suited my less than stellar recordings (the bulke of my big collection) more, a bit more forgiving and warm.

I have decided that I like the Cryotone tubes now, those three that came with the CSP3 that I bought from JOMAN are as good as my nicest 7308s, and I'm breaking in Cryotones for the ZROCK2 and the input position of the SEWE300B that are showing promise. I started off wtih the 6SN7 and that seems a mistake as that Cryotone pair I could not get to work in my main system, and the Cryotone 5AR4 I got with the CSP3 from JOMAN I didn't like at all either. I'm waiting on a pair of the same in the CSP3 for the driver tubes on the SEWE300B to see how that compares to the 7308s I'm using there.

Overall I'm truly enjoying the SEWE300B with whatever tube complement I use--it's a fantastic amp.

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