Forums https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl AUDIO FORUMS >> Room Treatment   >> Advice for new listening room https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1660164979 Message started by Geno on 08/10/22 at 21:56:19

Title: Advice for new listening room Post by Geno on 08/10/22 at 21:56:19 Looking for advice from the Decware Brain Trust. I’ve just bought a house, and I’ve posted a photo of what will be the listening room. The length is ok, but the width is pretty narrow. Open baffle speaker location shown as a possible starting point, but I can set them anyway needed for best results - including diagonally(I’ve always been intrigued by that unorthodox setup)  The ceiling height is 8'.   The large opening on one side will be an issue to deal with (possibly a sliding barn-type door on the speaker end of the room???)   Thanks in advance for your help! Geno

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by JBzen on 08/11/22 at 10:37:07 Geno, Try placing the open baffles on the window wall side with a listening position at the large opening just a tad inside the other areas.

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Geno on 08/11/22 at 16:10:54 Hi John. Would you think centered on the window wall, or maybe over toward the window side? I have treatment to help with the window. Thanks, Geno

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Doug on 08/11/22 at 16:30:43 Any chance of placing speakers across the wide opening to the kitchen and dining area?  You could possibly get the greatest stage depth ever!  I just read an article on the Audio Beatnik where the guy had a similar set up and was able to back his speakers up to the open kitchen/dining area.

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Geno on 08/11/22 at 19:42:37 Hi Doug. Now, that is interesting. The speakers would be positioned where exactly? And the distance between the speakers, roughly?

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by tempest62 on 08/11/22 at 21:37:00 Heyyyyyyyyyyy Geno! I’d start with your speakers 8’ apart and sit back 8’ which would leave you approx. 3’ from the wall. Have a cigar, you’ll go far! (Pink Floyd) More completely: Come in here, dear boy, have a cigar. You're gonna go far, you're gonna fly high, You're never gonna die, you're gonna make it if you try

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Geno on 08/12/22 at 03:22:48 Howdy Brad! This is why I posed the question. I had not even considered the possibility of a setup  like this. It is definitely worth experimenting with. What is the best method for running/hiding speaker wire that would be running across the opening? Vinyl plank flooring.

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by JBzen on 08/12/22 at 09:38:15 Centered on the window wall. Listen position would be much closer to beer and grub [smiley=beer.gif] You could try the speaker placement in the opening but balance issues might result along with some mid bass loss. Part of the fun in a new space is finding that sweet spot of speaker placement.

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by GroovySauce on 08/12/22 at 12:59:35 I agree with JBzen. This is how I would setup the room first. The positions of the speakers and chair need to be played with.

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Steve Deckert on 08/12/22 at 18:29:32 Based on Dougs suggestion I would add drapes to window wall as shown... buy a plush couch and center it on the wall...  flank the opening with your speakers.

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Geno on 08/12/22 at 18:55:34 Thanks so much for the response Steve, and everyone else. Great input! Steve, you don’t think that 11’ between speakers would be an issue? Too much space between, that is? Best, Geno

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by BicycleJoe Lo-Fi on 08/12/22 at 22:47:37 I like going the reverse longer way. Treat the windows with curtains and rolling diffusers/absorbers. Make the 11.8 foot opening smaller. Are pocket doors a possibility? Do a properly closed entrance door (Is this your main entrance?) Like a studio sealing out the outside environment. Move your speakers to that end the room. On the wide open entrance add approx. 4'pocket door to the 5' wall. Add approx 5 foot wall or more to 3 ft side with option to close room or leave part open. Then treat the room as needed

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Doug on 08/13/22 at 01:32:18 Geno, your Zen(s) won’t have any issues at all filling in the 11 feet and placing all your musicians and singers perfectly on your stage!  With a little patience in speaker placement across that huge opening, you could end up with one of the best sound stages in the entire Decware family. On a side note, a couple of years ago I took a few hours and tried the diagonal set.  I couldn’t stand the look and feel of the twisted room.  For the two weeks or so that the system was all crooked I nearly went insane. The sound was ok, but to me certainly no better than the traditional set-up; of course, that could have been caused by my mental distress over all the diagonal lines.  I tried with all my being to like it, but it wasn’t to be. Anyway, good luck getting the best sound out of your many speaker placement options.

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Geno on 08/13/22 at 03:42:14 Doug, I kind of imagined that I would have the same reaction to a diagonal setup. I remember Steve talking about it somewhere in the forum, so I mentioned it as a possibility. Really just to show that I was literally open to try any and every possible setup. I’m pretty excited about placing the speakers on each side of the opening. I will also try them moved more into the opening to try a shorter distance between them. I’ll have to get longer speaker cable for the one furthest away from the amps - and a cable cover to run between, too. It’ll be a month or so until I move, so I won’t be able to try it out for a while now. Thanks again for the great suggestions. Best, Geno

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Same Old DD on 08/13/22 at 11:31:56 Hey, Geno, Back when I was still single and apartment living, '80s, I was in a place that there was no way to set up my gear and have a TV in the room without a diagonal arrangement. It was because of the doors and pathways in the living room that made it completely impractical to have my JBL L300s, rack of electronics and a small TV in the same room. It was a nice big room, but the doors created problems for me. I could not get it dark enough for me to ever relax completely. It was an apartment rental, so my room treatments were a couple of Indian rugs on the walls, but it sounded pretty good. Doug called it a twisted feeling, but to me it felt like nothing was finished, like you had just shuffled the dominoes and no one has drawn yet. I had a tough time dealing with it. So, I'll second the notion (motion) that the diagonal set up sounded OK, but the feel was not something I could get used to. I like Doug's and Steve's suggestion. Sound stage!

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by BicycleJoe Lo-Fi on 08/14/22 at 09:56:57 Same old DD check your PM's

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by JBzen on 08/15/22 at 12:55:40 I think all possible speaker placements present it's own unique set of issues. Placing the speakers along the long window wall will ease the physical setup issues. Equipment can be placed in one area so connections will be easy. The short wall placement will keep the ease of connections but not properly load the open space of both areas sound wise. Careful speaker placement in the opening will load the spaces properly(especially if that 3' wall is extended to 5' matching the other short wall). Steve's placement will help with the OBs needed backwave bounce and keep the attributes of the design. But getting the wiring to the speaker would pose an issue on the plank flooring. I would also reverse your OBs Geno if used in the open placement senerio so the bass drivers are in the open space with the full rangers in the short wall area.

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Geno on 08/21/22 at 17:24:06 Guys, I’ve been thinking about my layout a good bit, and really want to try Steve’s suggestion of placement on each side of the opening. At the same time, I want to maximize the distance between my listening position and the speakers. This placement would give be about 9’ distance. Would the soundstage collapse with this arrangement? I’m about 4 weeks away from moving in, so all I can do is speculate at this point. Just figured I could save some experiment time with some good input😉 Thanks, Geno

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by tempest62 on 08/21/22 at 21:05:43 Hey Geno, Enjoy your new abode! I thought it would be good to place them where you are now thinking as I posted earlier. But also try moving them aside 1-1.5 ft. just inside in front of the wall (as per Steve) to see if you like the bass reinforcement. Give it hell buddy! Brad

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Geno on 08/22/22 at 00:14:46 Hey Brad! Thanks man. I’m pretty excited about the move. Very best, Geno

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Mannytheseacow on 08/22/22 at 00:54:59 Hey Geno- FWIW, my room is slightly bigger than yours (14 x 28) but set up the same as Steve’s recommendation. I’ve got 8’ between me and my Lii f15 OBs, and moderate to high room treatments. I spent several hours yesterday rearranging my room to reorient along the 14’ wall and only find it sounded like dog s**t…. Then down several hours just putting everything back to where I started. Lol. Good news is, my new caps are breaking in and life is good. Experience is priceless. Congrats on the new place and have fun listening to different options… every space is different.

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Geno on 08/22/22 at 01:44:31 Hi Manny. Are your speakers set up on each side of a cased opening? If so, is the wall directly behind them, or are they out into the opening some? Thanks for the response. Geno

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Mannytheseacow on 08/22/22 at 02:08:19 My setup is slightly different- I have a half-wall across that opening, which is only a 4’ full opening but ~14’ of a half wall (picture a craftsman home bookcase entryway). But yeah, my speakers are behind the half wall with dampening behind, not out in the walkway B/c I only have 4’ to work with. I bet, but you’d have to check for yourself in your own space, that placing them out into the open space would sound even better. I think your biggest challenge will be not tripping over speaker wire. I had to run mine under the floor. But I’m sure it will sound great whatever you come up with. Just play around with the space and see what sounds best.

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Geno on 08/22/22 at 02:39:06 I see.  My OCD will drive me crazy, and I’ll over-analyze it, until I can finally get in there and start experimenting :-/ I plan to use a cable cover strip between speakers - but you’re right, it’ll stick up enough to trip over. And if anybody can trip over it, I can :o Have a good night. Geno

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by GroovySauce on 08/22/22 at 13:08:09 Geno, Congratulations on the new home. What distance will your ears be from the back wall? If your drawing is to scale it looks like you will be really close.

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by BicycleJoe Lo-Fi on 08/22/22 at 15:35:01 SO your going to have OB speakers sitting just outside the Listening room with the space in back of the Kitchen and Dining room as your front wall, is that what I am seeing? What are the dimensions of those rooms, how far to the front wall? Will that create a slap back delay of a few milliseconds?

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Geno on 08/22/22 at 20:03:04 Groovy, yes, the listening seat (plush couch for absorption) would be pretty close to the wall. And curtains would be on the wall behind the seat. All of this, per Steve's drawing above. Joe, the kitchen/dining area would be directly behind. Prolly 10' to wall behind the speakers in the kitchen. Best, Geno

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by JBzen on 08/23/22 at 14:05:52 Geno, I am assuming that the floor is a concrete slab?

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Geno on 08/23/22 at 15:29:40 Good morning, John. That is correct. And will have vinyl plank flooring. The plan is to put down a large rug in front of the speakers - roughly 6 x 8.

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by JBzen on 08/24/22 at 10:31:22 I don't think a rug will help that much to eliminate the concrete slabs interaction with sound waves. Remember that slab is just a big plastic diaphram. It be better to mechanically detach the speakers from the slab as well as your components. I still think placing the speakers on the window wall and seating in the opening will be a better option. Two fold reasons. One closer to refreshments. Two less chance of tripping after too many refreshments. "Help I've fallen and I can't get up" https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/ive-fallen-and-i-cant-get-up--3 Whatever you come up with, enjoy!

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by BicycleJoe Lo-Fi on 08/24/22 at 14:33:00 I am all for reducing that open wall with pocket doors and going the long way with the speakers at either end of the room. And if there is a alternate entrance into the house putting the speakers at the far end away from the windows by the door. If not then place them more towards the center2/3 rd of the room Remember that Steve mentioned that if you'd leave as little as a 12 inch border around the rug you're losing 80% of the benefit of the rug.. The other thing that I see as your weak spot is the open baffle speakers just inside your kitchen dining room area with 10 feet behind them, kitchens and dining rooms tend to be high traffic areas and will certainly detract from any critical listening you do. I made some adjusted suggestions to the original sketch but in the end don't listen to me, just do you

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Geno on 08/24/22 at 15:19:34 Thanks very much, John and Joe. Quote: I made some adjusted suggestions to the original sketch but in the end don't listen to me The reason I created this thread is to get as much input as possible. All opinions are considered and appreciated. I will experiment a good bit to see what works best. Very best, Geno

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Steve Deckert on 08/25/22 at 01:48:48 This may not work.  The speakers may have to be exactly where I drew them to have bass.  The wall/corner loads them.  The opening changes all the rules. No worries about filling in the gap between the speakers. I do it all the time. Just toe the speakers in until it pops. Also it will not work without a heavy drape across the rear wall behind the couch.  That is there so you can set against the wall.  It needs to be symmetrical exactly as I drew it, and a couch would be best so act as an absorber / bass trap.   Otherwise, the conventional set up like Bicycle Joe has laid out where your listening chair is away from the rear wall it becomes less of an issue. Steve

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Geno on 08/25/22 at 01:53:22 Ok. Thanks Steve!

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Geno on 10/19/22 at 01:25:41 Ok. I am moved into my new place, and my listening setup is underwhelming so far. Pictures below. I’m looking for tuning suggestions. Please pipe in with anything that is glaringly wrong, or even something slight, that can push me in the right direction. Thanks, Geno

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Dana on 10/19/22 at 08:16:10 Underwhelmed how?  Does the bass increase when you stand up?   How does the sound change when you move your chair forward away from the wall? What happens when you move the speakers more into the room?   Can you tilt your speaker up?

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Donnie on 10/19/22 at 10:16:30 Geno, Can you get the speakers further out into the room? Like maybe at least another 2 or3 feet?

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by JBzen on 10/19/22 at 11:37:44 New speaker wire could create an underwhelming condition. Were not you using OCC braided before? Looks like you have some zip cord now?

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Sean on 10/19/22 at 18:06:59 First, you’ve got a nice house, looks great. Have you considered bass traps in the front corners? I found increased clarity and cleaner sound after putting some in my front corners, but every room is different. If WAF is not involved, gather up every unused pillow, blanket, towel and stack them up in the corners.

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Geno on 10/20/22 at 13:02:05 Sorry I’m late responding. Thank you for the replys! Donnie, I was trying to get as far away from the speakers as possible. I did not want a near field setup. But the room is what it is, so, I pulled the speakers out, and as common sense would dictate, MUCH better. Simple law of open baffles. The speakers are now 7.5 feet away from the listening position, and I feel that I’m close to optimal. John, the speaker wire is occ 16 awg from the same Chinese company that makes the other. It is small, but my vintage receivers speaker terminals will not accept large speaker wire. I know I can change out the terminals to a more modern substitute, but have not done so. However, the classic receivers don’t know that they should have larger wire, cause they work great😉 Sean, thank you. It’s gonna be a while before I get things sorted out. I have tried treatment behind the open baffles before, and found that it sucked a bit of life out of the sound, but I will experiment more with the corners. Best, Geno

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by HockessinKid on 10/20/22 at 16:03:21 Geno, Congratulations on your new home and best wishes setting up the system and speakers. Given my limited knowledge of speaker cables, I believe your 16 gauge wire is limiting bass response to some degree.  If you can figure out a way to use a 12 gauge (or larger) cable, I think you'll see better bass response. I read your issue with the vintage receiver terminals (older clip style?),  perhaps there is a solution out there. HK

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Geno on 10/20/22 at 16:25:09 I left you out, Dana. Sorry. Like my reply to Donnie, I was trying to keep as much distance between the speakers and the Listening position. Trying not to get into a near field setup. The sound to start with was just flat. I knew that open baffles need to be away from all walls, especially behind them. And the listening chair location, also in effort to keep the distance, is against the wall. I really can’t move it out much without being too close to the speakers. I’m using Steve’s suggestion of heavy drapes behind. And, no I have not tried tilting them back more. With the short distance, that may be worth experimenting with. Thanks, Gene

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Dana on 10/20/22 at 17:56:17 No worries Geno being the youngest I'm used to it.   [smiley=angry.gif] If you want to maintain distance, the other option is to move them closer together and back  to where the front wall becomes an extension of the speaker baffle.  I'm not sure how heavy they are ad easy to move but it would be worth a try.   I know you don't want to hear this but open baffles might not be the best choice for your room and configuration. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrsiMR_AP7c&ab_channel=HifiCave. The lil box speakers get a great review.

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Geno on 11/08/22 at 20:20:13 Update on this. Moving the open baffles out from the wall, almost 2' , and toed in facing just outside my outside shoulder, has the sound dialed in.  As stated before, I started out with them close to the front wall, trying to avoid near-field listening. It amazes me how things click when the setup is right. I still believe that at least 12' between speaker and listener (in the correct sized room), and at least 3' away from front and side walls, is the best setup for open baffle listening. However, in my room, with the wide cased opening, taking Steves advice on flanking it, and ending up listening on the short side of the room, with my listening chair against the rear window wall (with heavy drapes), what I'm hearing is shocking. I am approx. 7.5' away from the speakers (which I think is just far enough away to not be considered near-field?)  I will describe the sound as, like listening to headphones, but with the airiness of normal listening. I guess that description is a close description of near-field [smiley=10.gif] Anyway, I am pleased at, what I'm calling, the final result. However, I still may need to add a few absorption panels to take just a wee bit more liveliness out of the room. Best, Geno

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by HockessinKid on 11/08/22 at 21:29:00 Congrats Geno, Glad you were able to get your set up dialed in. I agree with your observations on distances. It approximates the set up in my smaller sized listening room. Now, just enjoy the music. HK

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Geno on 11/09/22 at 04:14:50 Thanks HK. Best to you and yours. Geno

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Geno on 11/19/22 at 18:06:21 Attached are photos of the finished room (aside from experimenting with absorption panels, instead of diffusion on the rear wall)(I am getting two 2’ x 4’ panels from a friend that is not using them anymore) I am still trying to wrap my head around what I’m hearing, and exactly the affect the cased opening has??? It just sounds incredible! I plan to call Steve for a better explanation. There is nothing on the internet that really touches on this type of setup.

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Tony on 11/19/22 at 18:28:29 Geno, Excellent work on the room. It looks great. I kept thinking that I had seen the outline of that room before, so I went back and found your drawing of it from August. Not to criticize your drawing skill, but the finished look is much more impressive than the sketches :)

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Same Old DD on 11/19/22 at 19:09:59 Agree with Tony, Geno. Your room looks great. How does it sound for you, now? I remember you talking about struggling. Believe me, we've all struggled to work out what we have to work with. Happy times ahead for you!

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Geno on 11/20/22 at 17:14:57 Thanks, guys! It has been fun seeing this turn from a plan in my head, and a simple sketch, to reality. I owe the better part of any success that I’ve had to this forum - and that is all the way back to the beginning of this audio adventure. Thank you to all that offered advice for this latest chapter - especially Doug and Steve. I never would have known about flanking a cased opening. This has opened a door into another listening dimension. I won’t say that it is better than my setup in my old home. There were strengths with listening at a greater distance - especially with open baffles. But, this closer proximity offers a degree of intimacy that the other did not. I’m in a very nice place, musically. Best, Geno

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Dominick on 11/21/22 at 05:55:34 Geno, I love the setup and your space.  Looks like you have all the bases covered with room treatment and your listening position and speaker placement.   I would love to listen to music in that room.  The decor and artwork really gives the space a great vibe.  Congratulations on the new setup!! Dom

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by JBzen on 11/21/22 at 11:19:44 Looking at your new set up Geno gave me the thought of moving my system out of the Charoit back to the family room. The openess and natural light is something lacking in the present room. There is something to say about a fresh bright room. Beautiful! I talked to Karen about my idea and it was shot down in so many words :'( Happy for you and here's to listening [smiley=beer.gif] John

Title: Re: Advice for new listening room Post by Geno on 11/22/22 at 00:00:37 Thank you, Dom and John! That means a lot coming from you seasoned vets! Best, Geno

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