Post by Donnie on 10/30/22 at 03:28:44
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https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl AUDIO FORUMS >> D.I.Y. >> Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1658916276 Message started by HockessinKid on 07/27/22 at 11:04:36 |
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Title: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by HockessinKid on 07/27/22 at 11:04:36 So it looks like Lii Audio's latest full range, single driver offering is almost ready for the world: https://www.facebook.com/959183250944130/posts/pfbid02BfDzDRLm1TRvR4r4uLVtYhVGzAdftAYGbwGSuSubrgKHfNUrYhc7dtkQ2vEcYagAl/ HK |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by will on 07/28/22 at 19:01:41 Thanks for the update HK. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by BicycleJoe on 07/28/22 at 21:29:57 What is the component that looks like a light bulb in the middle of their speakers that I have heard some people say had beaming problems? |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by HockessinKid on 07/28/22 at 21:41:13 It's a phase plug, common design element in single driver speakers. I don't hear any beaming from my F15's. Have them in Randy's magnum baffles pointing about 12" outside each ear. They throw a wide, deep, immersive soundstage with my set up. HK |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kahuna Jack on 07/28/22 at 21:58:57 whats confusing is the fact that there seems to be 2 different Lii Song/Audio companies and 1 claiming the other is not authentic ? alot of the Lii Audio drivers you see on Ali express have wooden phase plugs, different colors/variations of paper cones and most have the gold gramaphone stencil on paper cone. The magnets, frames etc on alot of these also look visibly higher quality???? Ive poked around the internet , asked a few people..... seems to be rather murky water truth surrounding the issue. this speaker looks to have a wooden phase plug but no gramaphone stencil. will the real Lii Song/Audio please stand up ??? ........ were they partners at one time and now both claiming to be original?? are both of equal quality?? |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by BicycleJoe on 07/28/22 at 22:32:21 Thanks HockessinKid What does a phase plug do? |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by HockessinKid on 07/28/22 at 23:25:02 Kahuna Jack, Yes, dealing with overseas companies can sometimes be confusing especially those that creates different labeled products for different markets. I encourage you to research information from the company website as a first step, it can be helpful. https://www.lii-audio.com/about-lii-audio Here is directly cut and pasted information from the Lii Audio/Lii Song website: "Lii Audio / Lii Song has been found in 2016, by the rear of beautiful Xizi Lake in Hangzhou, China. The company concentrates on designing and developing many types of high quality full-range audio speakers. The sound is artistic, we hold in belief that only by achieving a perfect design, insisting on handmade craftship and sound adjustment with restricted exigences can a speaker be made enchanted with art and life. We are devoted to provide to music amateurs worldwide a feast of exquisite hearing experience. Since the year 2020, for unifying our brand name for global market, we use Lii Song brand name in addition to Lii Audio as to establish unified brand recognition for both domestic and international markets. © Lii Song 2016 - 2022. All rights reserved." So it appears that the company MAY HAVE designed slightly differing products for domestic (Chinese) and international (including the U.S.) markets. The other possibility is some copycat products built by another company. I have purchased my drivers from Randy at Caintuck Audio. I believe he and Steve deal directly with the company, perhaps they can clear things up. HK |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by BicycleJoe on 07/28/22 at 23:39:17 Quote:
Reminds me of that Bill Murray Movie "Lost in the Translation" |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by HockessinKid on 07/29/22 at 00:35:14 Well, English is their second language. Just think how bad we would screw up posting in Mandarin Chinese. [smiley=tunes26.gif] HK |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by lobo on 07/29/22 at 01:24:44 Lii audio Facebook page said they don't sell on aliexpress. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kahuna Jack on 07/29/22 at 22:21:06 "Lii audio Facebook page said they don't sell on aliexpress." thats where Ive read the counterfeit beef i think on FB...... but??? those Ali Express drivers sure look higher end then the website attached to this Decware site. Look at the finish on the frames and the magnets used and the use of wooden phase plugs as opposed to plastic plugs... and most have the gramaphone stencil on cone which Ive seen on older Lii drivers. That purple pulp paper cone with the round phase plug Steve praised awhile back is only on Ali Exp and not the website used here. Ive never purchased from Ali Exp but those are some nice looking speakers |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by BicycleJoe on 07/30/22 at 04:15:20 Quote:
I for one never will. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Mannytheseacow on 07/30/22 at 05:37:55 @HK: “ Well, English is their second language. Just think how bad we would screw up posting in Mandarin Chinese. Smiley” If there were a like button I would have clicked it. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by JBzen on 07/30/22 at 08:29:56 Pictures on Ali Express can deceive. Read Steve's House Speaker thread to see his experience with an Ali Express purchase. Lii's site on the other hand is legit with good customer relations from my experience. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by BicycleJoe on 07/30/22 at 10:16:06 Manny the Cow the Lii description is as nonsensical and meaningless as most marketing hype without being translated syntax. Rolled my eyes many times at the conjecture on this forum as you know from our common experience. If it looks like bullshit and smells like bullshit it's probably bullshit. https://youtu.be/Ac7G7xOG2Ag |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by HockessinKid on 07/30/22 at 14:10:47 BJ, Roll your eyes all you want 🙄. While skepticism is warranted, many forum members have actually purchased and listened to Lii Audio drivers and speakers. If you want real proof, buy a pair of drivers from Lii Audio directly and a pair on AliExpress. Break in the speakers properly and then AB them in a suitable open baffle design. Then you'll actually be able to comment credibly on the speakers instead of speculating. Me, I attended Decfest a few years ago and listened extensively to the F-15 drivers in Steve's big, thick baffles and in Randy's smaller baffles with an assortment of Decware amps and lots of different music. I did not attend the event anticipating to get a set of speakers. After extensive discussion with both Randy and Steve I head home and placed and order for a set of Randy's F-15 baffles. Since that time upgraded to the magnum (thicker baffles). So my comments are based solely on listening to the Lii Audio F-15's over the last 2+ years in my system. So good luck with a thoughtful comparison should you choose.😁 HK |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Mannytheseacow on 07/30/22 at 15:03:16 @ KahunaJack: FWIW, the official Decware page for Master series OB links to the official Lii site. I purchased mine directly through the official Lii site and can’t speak from experience about Ali, but did note that the shipping prices they quote on Ali are way more than what the official Lii site charged me. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by jec3504 on 07/30/22 at 16:57:39 The new F-15's look promising. Just hope the price doesn't get crazy. When ordered from Lii Audio website, my speakers (F-15 & W-15) shipped from California. Added the W-15 months later. Both arrived in 5-7 work days, no regrets. Thinking of a Silver-10 + W-15 baffle with a SS amp powering the W-15. Steve suggested F-15 + F-18 project that might work out nice. Let's hope the world doesn't go completely nuts. Too old for WWIII. Joseph |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by michaelG on 07/30/22 at 18:56:45 @Hockenssinkid, what made you choose the smaller caintuck vs larger decware with F15? I’m thinking of experimenting those speakers but I’m not sure and I also need to find someone who could build them in canada as shipping + customs + exchange rate + taxes adds a lot to their original price given their size and weight |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kahuna Jack on 07/30/22 at 19:19:28 very good chance they build for different markets true and pics yes sometimes can fool you. some of the magnet covers look machined not just thin stamped covers ( not all) but maybe they arent machined. ali exp shipping rates are what have kept me from taking a chance on some of there products for sure. they also have a 21inch woofer on Ali Exp that I havent seen on Lii Audio website. Idk my inner Columbo spirit tells me maybe they originally were 1 company but went seperate ways and both build quality speakers. My only hang up on what to pursue for myself is that the wooden phase plugs / embossed garamphone stencil / very lux looking paper cones and some possible billet magnet covers and nicer finished frames tell me more money has went into building those speakers. FWIW I do own a par of F15's purchased from the link here on Decware I just havent commited to building anyhting for them yet. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by HockessinKid on 07/30/22 at 20:03:41 Michael, I have a small, basement listening room. Randy's baffles fit the bill a bit better and are easier to move around than the bigger, heavier Zen Master speakers. So I preferred the smaller form fit. HK |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by michaelG on 07/30/22 at 20:16:09 Thanks for the info Do you feel the sound stage is lower due to their smaller size? or that the large one had any advantage in terms of sound? |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by HockessinKid on 07/30/22 at 20:43:41 Michael, Soundstage is not as tall as the big Zen Masters. Bass notes not quite as tight as the big boys from what I recall. Both are great speakers. HK |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by michaelG on 07/31/22 at 01:09:55 Ok I see, I think I will have to find someone to build me and intermediate version of those speakers. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Donnie on 07/31/22 at 02:12:25 michaelG wrote on 07/31/22 at 01:09:55:
Hmm, you have my interest in building you some. PM me if you are truly interested and you would be able to pick them up from Central Illinois. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Steve Deckert on 07/31/22 at 04:02:18 One of the biggest misconceptions about Randy's speakers are that they will have a small or even low sound stage. Just the opposite happens. They create a wall to wall floor to ceiling sound stage in most any size room large or small. The advantage the Zen Master Series have over Randy's smaller baffles is two things, A) Projection and B) Slightly lower bass extension. Sound stage is the same on both. And as far as projection, think of the sound board on a grand piano. We're just comparing Baby Grand to Concert Grand. Smaller rooms will always do better with Baby Grand. To date one of the best sound stages I've ever heard in my room came from a pair of Randy's smaller baffles. As for Aliiexpress, Shops use bots that pull pictures from manufactures sites and add copy for small shops to post on Aliiexpress and then gamble on being able to get the items from the manufacture and ship them to you in time. Or they may have demos or B-Stock or discontinued versions if they do cary stock. Also there are a lot of copies there. Chinese manufactures copy each other, so there are the real Chinese items and the fake Chinese items. A classic example of this is the audio connectors. You can find the same RCA jacks made by 30 different manufactures, each different, most with non published tolerances. All copying one Chinese company that is copying a USA company. We've seen fakes of almost every cable manufactures most popular cables for a fraction of the price. Many almost impossible to tell they are fake, others are so obvious you know before you take it out of the box. This is the reason why Lii Audio doesn't sell on Alliexpress. But also the reason why you will see all of their products, and even our baffles on Alliexpress because the pictures are originally stolen. I would say in one square kilometer there are probably 40 shops that can make that baffle so even if the shop can't get it from the manufacture, they can just make one like it in a few days. Lii Audio/Lii Song is the real deal, otherwise I wouldn't have brought them to the Decware family. There are different markets for these types of drivers which is to say different drivers available for different regions. This is why you see so many on Alliexpress that you don't see on the Lii Audio website, which is a USA/Canada website. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Dana on 07/31/22 at 08:58:31 Hifi cave https://youtu.be/fZKWEYaFyBI He has several vids about Lii audio drivers. I just today mounted a pair in some scrap 1\2 inch plywood just to listen and learn how to use a router. My stand idea didn't work so they are just leaning against the furniture but that being said they are a legit transducer. For the cost of a router and skill saw off of craigslist. A circle jig a nd a folding sawhorse and some wood like plywood, kitchen counter or old dining room table you can have speakers that are raved about all over the internet. Mine will never look as good as Randy's or Steve's but with the lights out they should sound as good |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by JBzen on 07/31/22 at 09:59:52 Steve, Thanks for more insight on Chinese commerce. It totally alines with my experience and their answers when inquiring about items for sale. You and HK may have just convinced me to give Randy's baffles a go with the F15s! The Zen Master Series are just too big and cumbersome for my space. HK, what difference, sound wise, did you notice between the stock and magnum baffles? John |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by HockessinKid on 07/31/22 at 11:44:30 John, The magnum baffles with the Lii Audio F-15 drivers give the music increased density and impactfulness. Particularly noticable are truly realistic sounding stringed instruments (particularly stand up double bass), brass instruments and drums. The speakers just disappear and you're immersed in an incredibly deep and wide musical soundstage. I think with the heavier baffles there is increased coherency, That's the best way I can describe the difference the increased mass of the baffle brings to the party. HK |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 driver Post by michaelG on 07/31/22 at 18:13:06 Now, I’m convinced my next speaker experiment will be those F15. I had a woodworker to built me klipsch heresy bases in the past. I’ll see if he can make those (it should not be an issue). I wish I would be based in the US to experiment the original design from caintuck / decware |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by HockessinKid on 07/31/22 at 18:15:48 I think if you contact Randy, he'll send you the specs or a diagram w/ measurements. Good luck. HK |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 08/01/22 at 03:36:40 I did not want to start a new thread just for this comment and I know we are discussing the NEW driver here, but the F15 Lii Audio drivers are on sale right now. ... $399 https://www.lii-audio.com/product/recommended-15-full-range-speaker-driver-for-music-loudspeaker-with-tube-amplifier-f-15-in-pair/ I'm banned from Facebook, so I can't see stuff over there regarding the new drivers. I promised myself I would not buy any new gear until I get all my cabling udgraded. Saving money feels like wisdom at the start, though. That seems like a really cheap price for an item pronounced as epiphanous by some. I ordered a pair. Now I can find out what some of this talk is about for myself. My email confirmation stated 15 to 20 days for delivery. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by jec3504 on 08/01/22 at 05:19:59 Hey DD, Nice to see them still on sale. Paid the same at the begging of the year. Bet the new Fast version will go for around $699. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Mannytheseacow on 08/01/22 at 05:26:46 Looking forward to hearing your impressions, DD. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by jec3504 on 08/01/22 at 05:53:39 Hey Mannytheseacow, DD's F-15s will have the improved magnets. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by JBzen on 08/01/22 at 12:41:30 Thanks HK. Your comments about the magnum baffles compared to stock make sense. I just purchased some hickory with making Randy style baffles in mind. It will be a while because the hickory will need a least another year and half to air dry before being used. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 08/01/22 at 12:51:14 New and inproved, indeed, guys. I'm going to do another mock up before I commit to a large sum $$$ for nice hardwood. I've got almost three weeks until they arrive. I'm not abandoning my current project with the downfiring OB sub driver, but I might incorporate that idea into this next phase at some point, because it just works. I have time to haggle out a baffle and have it almost ready when they arrive. I never trust published measurements, so I'll rout out the driver mounting after I have them in my hand. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by BicycleJoe on 08/01/22 at 13:28:46 Same Old DD I am Eager to hear your opinion DD, are you replacing the JBL 2245 OB's in your system? I'd like to see some pictures of those if you ever have the chance. Are you thinking about traveling to decfest? |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by jec3504 on 08/01/22 at 13:37:52 Quote:
Measure twice cut once, give them two weeks to loosen up. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by JBzen on 08/01/22 at 14:09:34 Someone on this forum posted a spread sheet of scaling Randy’s/Steve’s OBs to any size. It works well. I did down load it on a different device and will try to upload it if one desires. Seems scaling would work well to customizing the sound of room needs and listeners desire. Off to peddling…have a great day. John |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by michaelG on 08/01/22 at 14:56:58 Hi JBzen, that would be great thank you! |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 08/01/22 at 16:27:16 BicycleJoe Lo-Fi wrote on 08/01/22 at 13:28:46:
Just to be clear, Joe, NO. Not yet. I'm not giving up on what I have built and spent years enjoying, so easily. Right now I have a particle board mock up of what is my best yet fusion of ideas. I am actually using 4 x 15'' 2235s, not the 18" 2245s. The 18s, along with some other "cousins," are in my mono stack in a corner of my garage doing duty as sanity keepers while I'm out there working. I have used OB for over twenty years (before it was even cool), but I've always known more cone area would help keep excursion down some. That's where I am still. My problem was always finding a super pleasant upper, because these woofers (can't call them JBL, but I did start with JBL's massively powerful and highly accurate, consistent motors when I built them up as OB drivers) only go up to about 400Hz before dropping rather quickly. They sure make great bass, though! I have not given up on the German, Japanese or Danish drivers I've been using. If these Lii drivers replace anything, it will be the uppers. I plan to give these F15 Lii drivers a full on solo listen for a few weeks. I want to give the Lii drivers an honest try with no distraction at first go. Let them settle in some and just keep an open mind. See what happens. Then I might decide to add a couple of the 15s back in as subwoofers as needed. Open mind first! I wish I could attend Decfest, but it's not in the cards this year. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by BicycleJoe Lo-Fi on 08/01/22 at 16:38:55 That's fascinating, I still haven't gotten back my JBL's 240 Ti's from the technician as a matter of fact after a month he hadn't even started on them yet. Say's the Surround for the LH14's are hard to find. He says he has seven weeks of backlog so I'm still using my field coil speaker in my guitar amplifier to listen to music.. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 08/01/22 at 20:16:25 That's rough, Joe! STILL!??! You might have your tech guy check with Upland in California for parts. He might at least be able to send you to a better supplier. I know this guy keeps a stock of many old obsolete JBL parts this master craftsman himself has put together. He calls them "reproduction" because the original Northridge and even the Mexican parts have run out. He even has a vid on his new Le14H1 kit. He's not stylish and elegant. Just a regular guy like you and me. I've used this company in the past and I can recommend their service. He sells pieces parts too, last time I had contact. http://www.repairspeakers.com/ His eBay shop: https://www.ebay.com/itm/JBL-LE14H-1-True-Reproduction-Recone-kit-from-Upland-Loudspeaker/274209750023 I am not in any way connected to this company. Just offering options for you that I trust. I had done business with Ken before eBay was a thing. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by JBzen on 08/02/22 at 10:40:47 Here is the link to the thread of the xls file worksheet to proportial size Randy's/Steve's OBs. https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1653229257 |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 08/02/22 at 15:54:58 Following the links, here's what I get. I'll upload a pic of the result. Not worried myself. Scaling is easy. I've already done all the simple scaling. Steve's is 42" in height. I decided to make mine 36" in height, just to fit my tiny 12'x14' room a little better. I'm still thinking this over. I might end up 42" high and as wide as Steve suggests. That waffling goes along with giving these drivers a fair shot. I have cut a couple of cardboard things to spec, just to work better with my picture thinking, which has markings for 42'', 38" and 36" to take into the room and have a look at what I am facing in the near future. At 42" they will have to be closer to the corners of the room. That could be a good thing, using OB, especially since my corners are tempered now. Your linky's linky got dead. I'm sure some would appreciate having it though, if it was still up. Many things so easy for some of us are quite troubling for others. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by JBzen on 08/02/22 at 16:48:29 I see DD! Well I do have it on file and can send it to you and Michael via e-mail if you like. PM me your e-mail address and I'll get it off to you DD. Michael are you still interested? I have no way to upload the file unless some of you computer guys have an idea short of joining an upload site. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 08/02/22 at 17:11:44 I don't need it JBz. As I said, scaling is really easy for me. It is some follks who might have a need for such a file that I was concerned that they have that info you mentioned at hand. I think it's awesome to have these resources at a click away for those interested. It will have to be remote linked if you keep with the XML format, unless you can make a JPG from a screen shot to attach to a post. I use "Irfanview" for a lot of screen shot manipulations. It's no Photoshop, but it opens in half a second and uses very little computer gumption to do lots of things. For instance, hit the Print Screen button, open Irfanview, hit Control +"V" and your screen is there for you to edit, crop, delete sensitive parts, add text, make memes, change color, etc, etc, etc. Best thing I've ever found for quick and easy. Not sure if anyone really cares about free graphics software but this is the best I've ever seen. Download the Tools or Plugins as well, if you try this. It is So easy to work! Here's a link: https://www.irfanview.com/ Thank you, just the same! |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by JBzen on 08/02/22 at 17:41:47 This file is an actual spread sheet that needs data points inputed to give a desired dimension. Don't think a jpg file will do that. I like Picsart for speedy function rich photo editing. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 08/02/22 at 17:46:18 Cool! I like Picsart, but for some reason I thought this file was a simple thing that required a lot of Microsoft ownership/intervention to work. Irfanview sits in your own computer with no online strings attached. I lean toward that. Sorry for misunderstanding. Sounds like you have this on the run already. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by JBzen on 08/02/22 at 18:36:50 No problem DD. I certainly understand your point of view about the migration of steadfast programs to the intrusive, time consuming, (f)ucking online swindle. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 08/02/22 at 18:49:24 Could not have said it better myself. I might have added flowers, but they would fade. [smiley=icqlite20.png] |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 08/04/22 at 15:04:13 I got an email from Lii Audio overnight stating that my F15 driver order had been processed and included a tracking number, via UPS. Looks like these will arrive on Tuesday of next week. WOW!! I was planning to have a baffle almost ready when they got here, but I have not even been to the lumber yard, yet. Right now it's raining like the dickens, so maybe later taday. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 08/09/22 at 16:44:55 Checking my tracking number this morning, it seems that my F15 drivers are out to be delivered to my address today. I have made two plywood and MDF sandwiches, 42" tall, but I have not cut the curved sides yet. Pretty heavy, but manageable. I have not worked on the "feet" yet. I'm a little anxious for this to become real! :) I have been using a back tilt for ages, but that was using three drivers in one baffle and mainly for alignment purposes. Anyone have a suggestion as to a pleasant sounding back tilt or should I just wait and block them up and back a little at a time until "something happens?" ... or go with my old 11 degree back tilt? None, maybe? Any suggestions? |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by jec3504 on 08/09/22 at 16:48:07 That's great DD, Hope they work out for you. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 08/09/22 at 16:55:30 Thanks JEC! |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 08/10/22 at 00:34:10 Lii drivers arrived in perfect order from CA a bit ago. They have that really nice new speaker smell. Build quality looks great at first glance, but I've taken the measurements I needed and boxed them back up for now. I need to finish my baffles, but before that my Honey Do list is becoming a Honey, OverDue list. Hoping to have an unpainted mock up done after the week end is over. 8-) |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Mannytheseacow on 08/10/22 at 01:57:04 Glad to hear they have arrived and anxious to hear your impressions as they break in. Been playing around with mine and 7 degrees seems the optimal tilt in my space. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by PaulInWA60 on 10/13/22 at 22:01:55 Has anybody actually gotten and used the new Lii Audio Fast-15 drivers? I am tempted to order them and use them in a barrel like open baffle design but their Qts is quite a bit lower than the F-15 drivers and I wonder if that will be a problem. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by will on 10/13/22 at 22:48:16 Me too. Wondering about the new Fast 15 drivers! My reservation for the past F15s was that I need the higher frequencies that these new ones seem to have much more of. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 10/14/22 at 01:21:23 I’m also thinking of gunning for the Fast 15. Besides keeping an eye on this thread, Randy from Caintuck has also ordered them, so awaiting his impressions as well. Couldn’t find any online reviews, even though it was released back in July. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by JBzen on 10/14/22 at 02:35:18 Looks like free shipping on the fast f15s until the end of this month. Wondering if the lower qts will compromise bass response in the open baffles. Lii seems to think that it will be a direct replacement/upgrade...for their ported enclosure? |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by jec3504 on 10/14/22 at 03:25:26 From Lii Audio Quote:
Unscrew the old drivers. Put the new ones in. Eight screws per driver. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by will on 10/14/22 at 06:58:41 The whole writeup from the Lii site on the Fast 15: "Since creation of F-15 we have always been thinking about all possible upgrades, after years of development and experiment, we can now proudly present to you Fast-15, a new member of Fast series. This model is optimized in detail and soundstage, giving a more present imaging and fuller sound body. The bass is deeper and more elastic that the energy can be released and pulled back quickly and easily. This model also has high end extension that rolls off up to 18kHz, giving a more vivid and swift sound experience. It uses the same basket as F-15 and can be direct upgrade by replacing the driver unit." In the past they seem to be pretty up front and articulate listeners, and this description sounds pretty good to me! You never know just how it all goes together though until we try it though? Be good to hear impressions.... 8-) |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by JBzen on 10/14/22 at 12:40:40 I just emailed Lii Audio asking for their opinion of using the Fast F15s in Steve's ZF15L open baffles. Waiting for a response ;) |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by JBzen on 10/14/22 at 14:13:07 Couple more thoughts: Decware does not list the Fast F15s on their Lii audio driver page. Most likely Steve has not had time to test those out and the QTS spec put that even further on his back burner. QTS has a lot to do with stability in relation to physical/electrical interactions as the driver is driven. Maybe the low watt Decware amps would be less of an issue concerning lower QTS with an open baffle design. Remember if the voice coil strikes the pole piece in an unstable over driven cone [smiley=icqlite16.png] Lii audio only offers one vented cabinet design for the old F15 but the Fast F15 QTS is better suited for a sealed box. So it seems their write up may suggest that the driver will work in any mounted scheme! Tempting. Old DD what F15 are you fooling with? Inquisitive minds want to know :) John |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by will on 10/14/22 at 15:06:31 Nice writing for Lii's take JBzen. I look forward to the response. Will |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 10/14/22 at 15:11:55 I spoke to Steve about when the new drivers will be available on his website and he said that he plans to offer it soon. Yup, same basket. I read that too and then re-confirmed with Randy. Not sure what the shipping time is. If shipping is free this month, then I might pull the trigger early and start breaking it in prior to baffles being ready. That said, I will probably give it until next weekend—hopefully Randy receives his set by then and has some initial impressions. Otherwise, it might just be a leap of faith. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 10/14/22 at 16:32:41 JBz, Will, when I decided, almost impulsively to bite at the lure of all the talk about the Lii drivers, I wanted the newest and best, right off. I went to the website and the Fast 15s were not available, even though they had been advertised for about a month. I suppose the first run sold out quickly? I decided to take the standard (upgraded magnet structures?) F15 variety. I do not have the Fast 15s! I chose to grab the ones available before the impulse smoldered down too far. I was not impressed at first, but all that beginning buyer's remorse has completely subsided. I am pleased with the ones I bought! More than pleased. I've been breaking them in rather coursely for about a month and they have shown me some things in the past day. I will truly enjoy getting to know them fully. I stoppped posting in this thread about my acquisition when I was not able to grab up the Fast 15s for myself, due to low stock conditions at Lii Audio. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 10/14/22 at 16:55:15 Another comment about the lower Q drivers being used in open baffles: I have been goofing with OB and IB systems for over twenty years (much longer with IB systems) and tried many things in that span of time. We are all looking for that magic .707 Qts range and theory supports this. Some drivers in the .35 range that I have used worked fine, especially in larger baffles and in multiples. And most particularly in IB subwoofer situations. Another item is that with dual voice coil drivers, only using one of the voice coils in a low Q driver takes it up to near double the Q compared to using both voice coils. This may or may not be usable, but sometimes it works out just fine. Sometimes the windings are co-spun and overlap and these seem to work fairly well, no matter which of the coils is active. Other designs have the coils lain one high and one low. That makes a huge difference in how they work with only one voice coil active. It often does not work well with that kind of coil form. I know none of that applies to single driver, crossoverless design intentions, but many successes with lower Q drivers are possible. I do not know if the Fast 15s offer such an option. I know that Steve will want to try the new drivers with the .4 range Qts before he signs off with confidence, though. I wonder if ANYONE actually has the Fast 15s in hand yet. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by will on 10/14/22 at 17:07:58 Interesting DD. Thanks for words on your experience. Lii lists the QTS at 0.528 for the Fast 15s. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 10/14/22 at 17:10:02 Thanks for the correction! I'll bet they will work just fine in an OB situation. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by will on 10/14/22 at 19:06:02 That is what I was thinking too...that above .5, especially with the product description of fast and deep sounding bass, but I look forward to Lii's response to John, and Randy's impressions. I do seem to recall folks playing with different coil hookup schemes with the F-15s, but can't recall the story or where I read it. Have you tried it on yours DD? |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 10/15/22 at 13:21:08 No, Will, I have them connected normally. Mine have a single coil hook up. Nothing to change that I can see. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 10/16/22 at 19:56:16 Just took a leap of faith and pulled the trigger on the Fast 15 considering they were on sale for $549 with free shipping. Here goes nothing…. Same Old DD—I might pick your brain on how you broke in your F-15s while waiting on the baffles. “I’m thinking, why waste tube life while breaking it in, so plan to use my Denon receiver for this job. I like the idea of both speakers facing each other and wired in reverse (or technically, one wired in reverse). I will just need a way to build a temporary rig to hold the drivers. Not being the least bit technical, I am thinking a slab of wood with two nails (covered in a soft material) holding the driver in place. Kamran |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by lazb on 10/16/22 at 20:59:59 or simply clamp the drivers together |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by will on 10/16/22 at 23:15:57 Looking forward to what you finally hear! Have fun! Will |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 10/16/22 at 23:57:34 lazb, that does sound simple…what would you use to clamp them together so they stay upright and the paper cone material isn’t damaged on either driver? That said, if it’s packed anything like the W15, I should be able to keep it in it’s styrofoam enclosure and cut holes to access the binding posts. Here’s the only unboxing vid I found online from Hifi Cave: https://youtu.be/mfLlXyZe_bQ |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by JBzen on 10/17/22 at 00:44:09 Good luck Kamran. I did a search on Lii's Facebook page and no one has responded to any questions about the Fast F15 use in open baffles. As well as my e-mail. No response! Nothing! I would post a copy of my cordial questions but used Lii's form on the website. No way to reference that. The new driver is clearly meant for a bass reflex box. Again, the bass reflex is the only DIY cabinet offered by Lii for the F15. So the basket on the Fast F15 is the same and the cone has the same mass but the motor is different. Decware and Randy had great success in using the original F15 in the barrel shaped baffles. The original F15s have a QTS that favors a open baffle scheme along with setting on the border of sealed and bass reflex use. Please don't confuse the mission of the two sites...Decware and Lii. The two have a partnership but clearly have different tastes and utilization of drivers. After all the above, there is a good chance that the new Fast F15 driver could end up with loose ill defined bass in a small open baffle such as Randy's Besty or even the ZF15Ls. There is also a chance it could be awesome but the specs do not dictate it. John |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 10/17/22 at 02:09:29 I appreciate the feedback John. That’s why it’s a leap of faith. I’m betting it will be good. Randy is also cautiously optimistic. Worst case scenario, I’ll sell it and get the original F15’s, but we’re not there yet. Curious what the ship time is going to be—Randy ordered his well before I did and he hasn’t received them yet. That is one of the reasons I decided to buy ASAP…in case it takes a long time to arrive. Currently estimating 8 weeks before my baffles are ready. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 10/17/22 at 05:03:06 Kamran, my F15s are sounding really good now. Sorry, I can't get on Facebook to see what JBz sees. I'm banned. For pushing the break in a little faster, I had mine mounted in baffles when I clamped them face to face. They stood on their own. I used some scrap wood to space them apart by half an inch and clamped the baffles together. I was not trying to seal them, but just making sure they could not touch diaphragms. There is so much pressure developed this way they will dance around some, so I placed them on a blanket, wrapped them in bubble pack, more packing blankets and covered them with a big lawn mower box I had yet to throw away. Left them to sing to each other for about a week. There is no fine science here. You need to get them to move under their own steam and you just need to be able to tolerate the sound for as long as it takes. I used the box, blankets and the bubble pack (what ever you have) to absorb some of the sound pressure. No big deal. They just need to play for a while. I used an old pro amp to run them all week. Anything you have that can run at constant duty for a week or so will be fine. You are buying the Fast 15s, right? You might not have to do any of this if yours show up closer to spec. The way mine showed up, more than a full octave above the advertised Fs specification (they sounded like crap!), I had to use severe measures to loosen them up some. It worked out. I wonder if anyone actually has the Fast 15s in hand yet. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by JBzen on 10/17/22 at 15:16:23 Guys, I did get a response from Lii! Found it in my spam mail! Had to check a PC to find it. It did not show in the spam box on my phone. Lii has always been prompt in past inquiries which concerned me...made me search! I'll post the favorable response soon! John |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by JBzen on 10/17/22 at 15:55:21 Below is the question asked on Lii's new Fast F15s. Quote:
Lii's response. Quote:
It is evident that Lii did address with some adjustment to the structure to help with the use in an open baffle. Also, it seems that the new driver will yield a leaner clean bass which may be more noticeable with a smaller baffle especially with the higher frequency response of the new FF15. John |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 10/17/22 at 23:33:37 John, thanks for sharing the feedback from Lii Audio—-very encouraging. Sale Old DD: Yes, put in the order for Fast 15 yesterday, no shipping info yet. Just thought of something…in order for the sound to truly cancel out during the ‘let’s face’ ‘em together while wired in reverse”, isn’t it ideal to feed them a mono signal? With Stereo, there will be some sounds mastered for those specific channels and will still be audible. Since I don’t have a baffle handy, my initial attempt will be to keep them lodged in their respective styrofoam cases (to keep them upright) and cut a hole in the foam to feed the binding posts. I should be able to get them pretty close together and will take a leaf out of your book to further cover them and perhaps but a box over it. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by PaulInWA60 on 10/18/22 at 00:32:52 I'm a little skeptical about their explanation about Qts but I need a project for the winter so I ordered a pair of the Fast 15's also. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Ahb3u on 10/18/22 at 04:10:46 That’s quite the Dear John letter! And I only recently had my f15s really break in. It was remarkable how bad they some days sounded, and then how suddenly and definitely just snapped into sync! Andy |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 10/18/22 at 12:06:12 Hey Kamran, I think your idea of using a mono signal is a good one. However, no matter what you do, you can not lower the escaping sound pressure much more than about ten dB. That's still a lot! The good news is that the low frequency sounds that can travel through walls are often almost mono already and decreased even more than those mids to highs which escape. A few fluffy blankets help with those mids and highs. I still think you should give them a try first before submitting yourself to the toil of extreme measures. Yours might be fine without all this extra work. Mine weren't. I had very little output below .8KHz when they came out of the box. Good luck and definitely keep us posted. I think everyone is Fast-15 curious! |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 10/18/22 at 12:12:53 Ahb3u wrote on 10/18/22 at 04:10:46:
Just wondering about your timeline here. After two weeks running mine almost constantly they began to sound a bit better, but it took two more weeks to make me more pleased with my purchase. I like what I am hearing, now, but I put a lot of power into them over the past month. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 10/18/22 at 12:16:40 PaulInWA60 wrote on 10/18/22 at 00:32:52:
Yeah, kind of a pre-kinder explanation. ;D |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by JBzen on 10/18/22 at 14:37:18 Sidelining the wiseacre remarks, Weyiu does identify with the potential issues with the new driver. He also leads on how these were addressed by structure changes. It looks like there is a dip at 1300hz caused by the addition of the new other cone material. This could lead to 'off' vocals by depressing nasal generated tones. The change from a fluted core plug to smooth changed the smooth F15 response to a jagged one with the FF15. While the obvious changes helped the "rich and fast" claim and increased top end for the new driver it came with costs. It was suggested to me by yet another Steve(a lot of steves and johns present) at the Zenfest to simply reverse the positioning of my layout to the other wider end of the room accommodating a set of ZF15Ls. Interestingly pondering the idea, I may build the ZF15Ls with a possible positive outcome. There was also another guy at the fest that had a well used set of F15s up for sale. I pondered too long and he had split before a purchase could be made :-/. Wondering if he still has those. It will be interesting following the different builds and outcome with the new drivers. John |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 10/19/22 at 17:55:57 Sorry, JBz, I should not have attempted flippancy while others were serious. Allow forgiveness, please. To be more serious, his words reflected many of our own frustrations when we attempt to gain that last kibble and bit while running headlong into the sciences we are also trying to understand. If nothing more, with my "doing really well now F15s" in my room, I want to try the Fast 15s more than ever. But your description of a mid peak/dip puts me off some. Mine have smoothed out and settled themselves to the point that I do not want to listen to any of my other speakers right now. All the other smaller "Fast" drivers seem to be a big hit with most folks who have them. When I decided to give Lii Audio a try I went looking to buy the Fast 15s, but they were not available due to short stock. I still want to hear from those who actually have them in hand, first hand. Anyone? |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 10/20/22 at 00:57:03 Randy will most likely be the first one to get it. I sent Lii Audio an e-mail today following up since it still shows “processing” 3 days later after I ordered. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 10/20/22 at 04:37:12 Received the following response from Lii Audio: “Thank you very much for your purchase. Due to high demand of orders the first batch of supplement was all taken, new supplement will depart this week, it takes normally 15 days to arrive at Long Beach and after several days of clearance will be forwarded by our partner warehouse in CA and delivered within 3-5 days.” Best regards, Weiyu ZHANG |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by JBzen on 10/20/22 at 08:53:25 Old DD, don't take it personal. It was more a reminder not to go that direction in my response. I appreciated your comment! All this talk of speaker parameters got me dusting off the old PE Woofer tester. Spent a day just trying to get it going. It evidently needs a Windows edition that does not mess with DOS too much or just DOS. Windows '97 worked! It was used to test some new wire scheme for inductance. There are to many audio projects setting around here to tackle anything new. Need to get caught up! Looking forward of reading about the FF15 builds and impressions. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by HockessinKid on 10/22/22 at 11:00:16 Lii Audio video post on Facebook. Fast F15 drivers in some massive open baffles. Sound pretty good, but it's tough to judge the SQ https://fb.watch/gju03Zf9tS/ HK |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by JBzen on 10/22/22 at 12:30:05 I agree on the difficulty of judgment with SQ, although some sibilance can be detected. Bass seems to be good. Vocalist not engaging. Full disclosure: Out of town listening from Samsung S9 with it's speakers nested in the right ear. Unfamiliar recording. JMO FWIW John |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 10/22/22 at 22:58:13 Thanks for that link, HK. I have found that I can still "lurk" on FB as long as I make sure I am not logged in. The big baffles sound nice, but hard to actually get much from the recording, as already mentioned. I did get put off quite a bit by the big gray horn things. YUCK! The lowers look like old school Peavey SP1s, which never had anything come out of them but headaches and the 100z horns for the F15 do not improve anything at all, for me. I know horns are not all bad! Just that making a good one that actually is a pleasure to listen to is rare from the many, many horns I've had to deal with. Sorry, mostly pro audio and live music experience in my life. This sitting down and just listening concept, allowing others to have it all ready for you is still a bit new to me. ;D |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 10/27/22 at 17:00:29 So interesting turn of events – it appears, that I might be receiving the Fast 15 drivers tomorrow, and Randy will get his pair coming Monday. Stay tuned… |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by astro-chris on 10/28/22 at 18:10:16 Awesome;I look forward to hearing what you and Randy think of the new Fast 15 drivers! Chris |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 10/29/22 at 03:10:15 We might have Randy’s first impressions as early as tomorrow evening. At least he got the notification that they were delivered. Mine on the other hand? Well, let’s just say that somebody at UPS got an earful because they apparently don’t have any idea where the package is once their truck broke down on the 25th. They told me to mark it as lost. For now, I’ve informed Lii Audio and will let them make the call. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by JBzen on 10/29/22 at 09:37:37 That is a bummer Kamran. Hopefully Lii will sent out a new pair ASAP. That reminds me an item that was ordered and shipped with UPS has not arrived here after being delivered to the local hub over 3 weeks ago. I need to call the supplier. I think UPS is hiring some folks with sticky fingers! John |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 10/29/22 at 18:05:48 Yes, Lii Audio was very quick to respond and offer to send out another pair via air. They also seem to be very frustrated with UPS and wondering whether they should switch to FedEx. It’s really amazing that it took a phone call (and then an extra 20 min to secure a human being on the other side) for UPS to admit that they had no idea where the drivers were, once their truck broke down on the 25th. I was like there must be hundreds of packages on that truck—are you telling me the company just lost them all? I mean c’mon, you’re a logistics company and when a truck (which they call a feeder for some reason) breaks down, you’d expect them to have contingency plans in place to send another truck —swap the contents—and continue bringing the packages to their final destination. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kahuna Jack on 10/29/22 at 18:23:40 My Lii drivers were lost in a black hole also ( but during Covid ) and Lii Audio eventually reshipped another pair so they are extremely honorable. They must be losing large profits in our sloppy shipping companies. My experience is that Fe Ex is the worst of them all and they use to be solid years back when it was my go to choice. In my area FedEx hires sub contractor delivery drivers only. You wonder how flea market vendors have full cases of unused current name brand products. Soap,toothpaste,cleaning supplies , home decor etc etc. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 10/29/22 at 22:54:31 JBzen wrote on 10/29/22 at 09:37:37:
I sometimes hesitate to be a spoiler type, but I know someone who works for UPS. Hands on at a hub and many coworkers wear ankle monitors. This used to not be the case, but in today's hiring climate, they still need people willing to do the work. Some relaxation of standards has occurred. No win scenario, but we are there. Sorry to hear about you guys having things lost in shipment. I really hate dealing with that stuff! |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 10/29/22 at 23:00:49 Kamran, I hope the solution works out in a timely manner. Last thing I had lost in shipment was a birthday present for my daughter last year. Navaho abused woman shelter center selling crafts to support the efforts. I had ordered a huge hand woven pancho and it arrived four months late, but at least they found the thing eventually. >:( Good Luck!! Seems like Lii Audio is doing an upstanding job for you. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by ProggRob on 10/29/22 at 23:20:46 Hey all, haven’t been here in forever but I got my Fast 15 yesterday and have been playing them continuously for 24 hrs. Happy to post updates as I go along. Rob |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 10/30/22 at 02:45:39 So we have some first pictures from the wild 9 (courtesy Randy). What caught me off guard is the decidedly yellow outer ring. I was expecting it to be beige…similar to the inner ring — consistent with what was advertised on their website. Plan to e-mail Lii Audio about that. Just curious. Randy is listening right now, so hold for first impressions. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 10/30/22 at 02:48:06 Listening room pic… |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 10/30/22 at 02:49:56 Sorry….can’t get these pics to size right…but if you click on the jpg link, it will open in it’s full glory. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 10/30/22 at 02:57:07 Quick first impressions from Randy: “I will have to mount the original F-15 drivers in some baffles tomorrow to do a proper A/B, but from the first couple of notes I can already tell that the Fast-15s are more detailed and extended on the top end. The bass is a bit deeper as well, but kind of loose. Based on my experience with Lii Audio drivers, it will tighten up with some break in. I'm guessing that these drivers are keepers.” |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 10/30/22 at 03:04:40 Another tidbit from Randy—totally agree with his call here: “ BTW ... I am listening without the W-15 bass baffle and the ZROCK is turned off. I want to hear what the Fast-15s sound like on their own. One more thing ... they are very open sounding and fast, lots of "air". |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Donnie on 10/30/22 at 03:28:44 Resized! |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 10/30/22 at 03:38:53 Thanks for re-sizing the pics Donnie! |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by ProggRob on 10/30/22 at 04:24:13 Agree with Randy’s air and detail comments. I listened to the standard F-15 exclusively for over two years and it’s pretty obvious. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 10/30/22 at 04:56:17 Thanks for your feedback as well ProggRob. If you don’t mind, can you share a picture of your baffles with the new drivers installed—especially if it’s a diffferent wood type compared to Randy’s. Trying to set a baseline of how it looks in different settings. I’m now a little less confident about the two tone wood arrangement as there will be too much going on with yellow as a third color within the driver itself. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by ProggRob on 10/30/22 at 05:13:56 Thanks Kamran, and understand your concern. I thought the yellow was pretty cool but I have homemade painted red baffles made from doubled up 3/4” premium birch plywood. I have the ability to change color if I don’t like the appearance. I’ll get pics up soon. I’m going to install some decoupling material between the basket and the baffles (from Herbie’s Audio Lab) before final install as I read an interesting study on this that I want to try. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by JBzen on 10/30/22 at 10:55:41 This is all good news! After listening to Randy's rig at the Zenfest this year, I do respect his opinion. The only distraction was the drivers are so low to the ground in the original Besty baffles that it placed me in the balcony looking down at the performers. The present set up with the Crystals in Leon's folded horn cabinets places the performs at level albeit a tad high because of the extended horn mouth. The new Fast 6s have the same color outer cone as Randy's FF15s. ProggRob what size are your baffles? I really need another project...yeah right! This is so tempting. Someone please stop me! John |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Randy in Caintuck on 10/30/22 at 16:57:27 Initial impressions ..... Last night, I spent about two hours listening to some familiar music via the new Fast-15 drivers that were mounted in some "quick and dirty" baffles that I threw together for testing purposes. I recently sold my personal F-15 baffles to a customer and haven't had time to build another pair .... so, I will have to make a similar pair of baffles for the F-15s to do a direct A/B comparison. As shared by Kamran, my initial thought was that the bass was a bit "loose", however after the amplifier (my trusty and musical SE84UFO) warmed up, the bass tightened up considerably. All listening was done with the W-15 bass baffle disconnected and the ZROCK2 was in bypass mode. My experience with all other Lii Audio drivers is that they require quite a few hours of break-in to "mature" and sound their best ..... so I'm pretty sure that this will also be true of the Fast-15s. Most of the other Lii Audio drivers start sounding good after 100 to 200 hours of playing time, but one of my customers (who has good ears) tells me that his F-15 drivers continued to improve until they hit 500 hours. I'm looking forward to the A/B comparison with the F-15s, but based on my (imperfect) sonic memory, the Fast-15 drivers are better in the following areas - Better high frequency extension Better detail ..... including "low level" detail Better separation and spacing of vocals and instruments A larger soundstage Deeper and more tuneful bass Improved "realism" Translating from one language to another is usually an imperfect art, at best. However, here is the statement from the Lii Audio website concerning the Fast-15 drivers - "Since creation of F-15 we have always been thinking about all possible upgrades, after years of development and experiment, we can now proudly present to you Fast-15, a new member of Fast series. This model is optimized in detail and soundstage, giving a more present imaging and fuller sound body. The bass is deeper and more elastic that the energy can be released and pulled back quickly and easily. This model also has high end extension that rolls off up to 18kHz, giving a more vivid and swift sound experience. It uses the same basket as F-15 and can be direct upgrade by replacing the driver unit." Based on my initial impressions, I can find no faults in this description. I hope to have a pair of baffles ready for the F-15 drivers in a day or two and be able to share some additional thoughts. Although neither pair of drivers will be fully broken in, they will have enough playing time to be able to make a valid comparison. Happy listening, Randy |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Randy in Caintuck on 10/30/22 at 17:05:51 JBzen wrote - Quote:
Hi John, It has been my experience that this perspective is related to the distance between the baffles and the listening position. If you are too close, this is what you will hear. Moving back a few feet raises the soundstage to what I refer to as a "private concert" perspective .....  If you can move the listening seat ten to twelve feet from the baffles, the speakers just disappear and the performers are "hanging in the air" above the baffles. Some owners of the low-profile baffles place short spikes or cones under the fronts of the baffles to raise the soundstage. Best wishes, Randy |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Palomino on 10/30/22 at 19:55:57 I’ve always been amazed by the floating soundstage and heard it again at the Fest. One of the mysteries of hi fi. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 10/30/22 at 22:22:50 I know it's not the same driver, but I am approaching or maybe just there at the 1000 hour mark of constant play and my original F15 drivers are still changing. They sound wonderful!! I would expect the same from this manufacturer with most other driver configurations. Good to see you around, Randy! ... our demigod. (you know you'll NEVER live it down) ;D I have tried angling upward by a small margin and found improvements. I'm a DIY kind of fellow, mostly. Can you talk more about how some additional lifting and even spikes might offer further improvements? Is this something you've looked at? OH, I'm using a scaled down version of Steve's Master at 36" height and loving every moment of it. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by JBzen on 10/31/22 at 11:27:17 Randy your not really helping here. Only need to get through today before the free shipping lure passes ;) The few times setting in your room at Zenfest was in the back row right near the door. A decent sound stage was present along with detail. I guess my ears were around 10' from the small baffles. Not sure the distance between the back curtain and back wall, but it is suspected to have limited my perception. Palomino, enjoyed your pizza! Are you talking about recordings with Q. Probably not. Q can make that floating sound stage on just about any system. It is those special systems when all the stars align, when the music blossoms suspending the listener in passages of dense body absorbing bliss. If so, I can relate :) John |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Bottlehead on 10/31/22 at 22:30:51 Hey JB (and other Fast 15 lurkers like myself), The Lii Audio site now shows that since the first batch sold out, the free shipping deal has been extended to 11/10. Randy |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by HockessinKid on 10/31/22 at 23:20:08 Randy, Thanks this is good news! May have to spring for a pair as an early Xmas present.😉 HK |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 11/01/22 at 01:53:33 Update: So while I wait for Lii Audio to give me a new FedEx tracking number, UPS had some interesting updates after the loss was filed. An investigation was opened but it was also on it’s way to Horsham, PA on Oct 30th. Copying their updates below. There is a glimmer (emphasis on glimmer) that I might it get it this week. 10/31/2022 5:55 A.M. Investigation Opened We've begun an investigation to locate the package. 10/30/2022 7:27 P.M. On the Way Arrived at Facility Horsham, PA, United States 10/25/2022 4:41 A.M. We were unable to dispatch the trailer on time. This may cause a delay. San Pablo, CA, United States 10/25/2022 2:44 A.M. Departed from Facility San Pablo, CA, United States On another note, I seem to be the only one slightly displeased with the yellow of the outer ring. So much so, that I had Randy change my baffle wood combination to better match the driver. I had reached out to Lii Audio about this and had sent them the picture of the baffle in Randy’s workshop as an example (just told them it was from a friend who received his baffle recently) and they countered with sending me a picture of the drivers in Randy’s listening room. Here’s their response: “As for the color of surrounding, actually the mass production indeed has little color difference but it's a question of light when taking photo, here-below are pictures taken by Randy of Caintuck Audio, of a same open baffle in different light condition”. I get it…lighting does effect it, but still I think the picture of the driver on their website, is a bit misleading. I didn’t belabor the point though. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 11/01/22 at 03:20:57 Latest update: 10/31/2022 9:54 P.M. On the Way Departed from Facility Horsham, PA, United States Hopes rising… |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 11/01/22 at 04:24:51 I don’t want to jinx it but I think I’m getting the drivers tomorrow. As of 11 pm EST, they have finally arrived at the local township hub of UPS, which is basically my neighboring town. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Palomino on 11/01/22 at 05:17:26 I’m not crazy about the color either. I see it used from time to time on other drivers but not a fan. I know it will go with some peoples baffles. The color of the C10s would be nice. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Randy in Caintuck on 11/01/22 at 05:29:56 Same Old DD wrote - Quote:
I have tried to convince Lon that I sold that title for five dollars and a four pack of Guinness Pub Draft ..... but he doesn't believe me .....  In addition ..... I am a dyed in the wool monotheist, so I do my best not to invoke the displeasure of the one true God ..... Best wishes, Randy |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by JBzen on 11/01/22 at 12:16:34 I'm weakening with a deuce of Randies steering [smiley=icqlite19.png] Revisiting the Lii audio Facebook post of the FF15s playing the track of "Sky Burial" from Dadawa's "Sister Drum" album the post does not do the artist justice. Pulling the album up on YouTube and playing it with the same headphones as played from the post, there is so much more detail with the YouTube version. Surely not definitive of the new F15s but more of how it was recorded on the Facebook post. John |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 11/01/22 at 13:36:22 Randy in Caintuck wrote on 11/01/22 at 05:29:56:
;D I think the joking nature of the "title" and use of all lower case lettering will allow us some romping room and the One True God will let this one slide. I'll drop it, though. Tell us more about spiking and lifting the baffles, if you have looked into this. My floor is ceramic tile glued to a concrete foundation, with some jute pad and a poly/fake wool rug. Any suggestions? |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Palomino on 11/01/22 at 14:04:06 Hey Randy, this is OT, but I am liking your diffusers. Have you posted any recent shots of your listening shed in other threads? 
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by GroovySauce on 11/01/22 at 15:09:57 That's exciting Kamran! I'm not a fan of the color scheme. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Randy in Caintuck on 11/01/22 at 16:36:44 Same Old DD wrote - Quote:
I know that some owners of the low-profile baffles are using spikes, cones or other devices under the fronts of the baffles ..... or they are using three or four under each baffle to raise the entire speaker. One of my customers uses the Nordost Sort Kones and swears by them. In my experience, it depends on the room and the distance between the baffles and the listening position as to how well this works. My suggestion is to experiment to know what works best in a given room. The one caution I would offer is that "coupling" with the floor definitely affects the tonal balance of the speakers ..... so raising them too much might have a negative effect ..... as in all things audio related, your mileage may vary .....  Best wishes, Randy |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Randy in Caintuck on 11/01/22 at 16:47:14 Palomino wrote - Quote:
Hi Tom, Those diffusers were built from plans that were previously offered on the "old" Decware Forum. From what I understand, the plans are no longer available. They work very well in my room, based on the good sound that I am hearing. Nothing changes very much in my "audio he-shed" ..... except that I recently had the exterior painted and a gutter and downspout installed on the front side ..... The photo that Donnie resized is the most recent one of the interior. For a fact ..... this is my "happy place" .....  Best wishes, Randy |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by HockessinKid on 11/01/22 at 16:57:45 FWIW, I use a pair of these rubber-cork vibration pads under each front side of Randy's baffles to listen to my F-15's. They work well, raising the baffles about 1" and are cheap. YRMV. https://www.supplyhouse.com/DiversiTech-MP-3C-Rubber-Cork-Anti-Vibration-Pad-3-x-3-x-7-8 HK |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kahuna Jack on 11/01/22 at 18:25:09 that hard yellow surround is harsh and doesn't really reflect the vintage spirit of full range drivers . maybe they need to see a full rack of Kicker speakers at WalMart to see things more clearly. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Palomino on 11/01/22 at 19:05:15 I've seen some higher end drivers use yellow, but the Walmart image is what first came to my mind. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by PaulInWA60 on 11/01/22 at 20:52:29 There is a thread on diyaudio.com where a poster noted that the graph for Frequency Vs SPL that Lii posted for the Fast-15 is actually dated Jan 3, 2015 which is disturbing. https://www.lii-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Fast-15-4.jpg 
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Palomino on 11/01/22 at 22:22:25 Yeah, I noticed that as well. I usually do rely on these charts too much. I think Lii is a little loose on what they use for their marketing materials. I rely more on what people with ears I trust say. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by PaulInWA60 on 11/01/22 at 23:12:29 "Loose" seems a little polite for what feels more like blatant lying. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Palomino on 11/01/22 at 23:52:14 I’m a polite guy :) I use them as guidance not absolute. Their drivers all sound pretty good to me so I don’t spend as much time on the “specs”. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by JBzen on 11/02/22 at 00:33:11 A lot of Lii's charts are miss dated. It seems that the computer needs a CMOS battery. At boot, if the battery is dead or missing it will default to a preset date usally the 1st of the year. Me thinks that Lii is very busy making quality products while being short handed and short on real estate. Not worrying about a stinking battery or setting the date in CMOS. No falsehood just real life struggles. John |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by JBzen on 11/02/22 at 00:55:47 Quote:
That concrete slab forming your foundation is a big diaphram that will react with generated sounds. It seems stiff and hard but it is a plastic mass that most likely sits on a chipped stone bed sprinkled over clay. It will vibrate right along with long sound waves. So it is best to first physicaly decouple the speakers and any other music reproduction equipment from that concrete diaphram. Then as Randy suggests keep the baffle close to floor so it can acoustically couple with the that 4" plastic concrete slab strengthing bass. John |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 11/02/22 at 01:42:52 The picture is uploading upside down so I deleted it, but good news…I received the drivers and have set them up against my Klipsch speakers temporarily. More detailed thoughts tomorrow but very promising out of the box. Many thanks to Randy for the quick pointer on the spring loaded input terminals, which confused the heck out of me at first. Now if he would just hurry up with my baffles….jk! |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by JBzen on 11/02/22 at 01:51:06 Congratulations! |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 11/02/22 at 01:55:25 I also noticed the discrepancy two weeks ago with the measurement dates and didn’t make a big deal out of it chalking it up to a typographical error. Not necessarily a specs guy either. The original F-15 sounds sublime. We all know that. Lii Audio claims, this is an upgrade and I took their word for it. That said, this was blowing up in the Facebook group as well, so Lii Audio just responded saying that this was measured in an anechoic chamber and that the computer inside isn’t connected to the internet. I will try and post a screenshot…hopefully, it doesn’t upload upside down. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by 4krow on 11/02/22 at 05:46:08 For some reason, this does remind of a Cayin integrated amp that I bought many years ago. It had a rectifier tube right on the top of the unit with the other tubes, BUT what would you think if I told that you could pull that rectifier tube out, and the amp just kept playing? Fact was that the amp HAD a SS rectifier as well! The tube rectifier just made it look cooler I guess. I thought that was deceitful. No mention of it anywhere in the literature. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 11/02/22 at 13:07:38 Thank you Randy for your input. I am still working on some room treatments and running into the "availability" issues, common now, almost every time I decide on some pathway. I am not suffering, though. Things are sounding really good right now. JBz, I live in Indiana and the basic "floating" foundation must be significantly more deep than some just due to local codes taking into account freeze depth lines. Even still, I understand your analogy of the diaphragmatic plastic properties in reference to "solid concrete." Thank you for the insight. [smiley=peanuts21.gif] Still learning. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by metropolis7 on 11/02/22 at 15:28:21 Would those rubber/cork pads (referenced above) effectively physically decouple and acoustically couple the baffles? |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by HockessinKid on 11/02/22 at 16:34:05 I have no earthly idea. The rubber-cork pads simply raise the front end of the baffle about1". The bulk of the baffle bottom plate stays in contact with the floor. I have wall to wall carpeting so there's that to. Raising this small amount does not adversely effect the bass response of speaker. HK |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 11/03/22 at 02:03:06 So, did a 4 hour virgin listening/break-in session with the drivers on the carpeted floor propped up against my tower speakers and slightly toed in. Ran some tracks, then left the room and put on some speaker burn-in tracks including pink and white noise and then came back and listened some more. Quick & dirty thoughts below: Considering their fresh of the boat condition, I was taken aback by the spaciousness (airyness?) of the sound, the decay, and clarity/crispness. Mid range was the standout—with vocals to die for but that doesn’t mean the higher frequencies were not up to the mark. They were, and then some. The only thing that didn’t impress me was the bass response, which is understandable given they are sitting naked on the floor (I swear that’s a line from a song). Once I receive Randy’s baffles, I expect the lower frequency response to catch-up. Decided to unhook them for now since I’m paranoid that they will get damaged sitting there with kids using the basement for their video pleasure, not to mention the basement looks like an ugly science project at the moment. Looking at those big and decidedly yellow drivers on the ground, my better half already made a comment about how my Klipsch speakers are the best looking thing in the room. It’s the first time she ever complimented my setup—so (ironically) I owe Lii Audio a big thank you! |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Steve Deckert on 11/03/22 at 03:22:24 This frequency response doesn't jive with what I am hearing. I have a pair of Fast 15 that I am breaking in using the "big betsy" ZF15L baffles. My first impression was I was less than impressed with the spongey bass, abiet a lot lower it was slower and lacked texture. That said, I have been running the hours on them to see where they land. It has been hard for me, becuase I simply removed my seasoned pair of F15's and installed these new fast 15's in their place. Besides the bass quality at first, the midrange was hard to digest. As well the top end. I am just comparing them to the previous drivers, and the baffles have not been moved. The response is peaky. It has discombobulated my highly resolute sound stage that now changes from track to track. Some things are way better than I've heard them and some are way worse. The driver is somewhat re-mixing the recording by peaking midrange and treble frequencies thus moving things way forward in the sound stage, and dropping other things way back. There are certain recordings that finally after 40 years shined and sounded right to me for the very first time. However there are a lot more that are getting wrecked. This may change as I get the hours on them. We're at about 150 hours so far. The bass has improved a lot since the first two hours, and by that I mean it has tightened up, which I didn't expect. After awhile I had to look up the response shown above and frankly that's not really what I am hearing in my room. Today I measured them in the F15L baffles and was completely stunned to see the -3dB point is 30Hz! And from 30Hz to around 400Hz was impressively flat. That might be worth trading a little speed and texture for, because the F15 in the same baffle in the same location goes silent at 50Hz. Today I measured the speakers to see the gated response in my room, which is not that far off anechoic. Consistent with what I've been hearing. A tilt in the midrange and a large presence peak. Frankly compared to the F15 in these baffles, it's going to be a no go unless it can be improved. In fact I almost removed them and gave up until I measured them and saw how flat the bass response was and down to 30Hz in a baffle is a first. So I will continue to burn them in and am playing with very simple 6dB crossover coils to see if I can tame it. I didn't have the right value to get it where I want, so I have ordered more and will continue next week. Meanwhile here is the raw response after 150 hours.  To get the reference/honest sound stage of the F15 in these same baffles with these drivers the response is going to have to be tamed. To have my open baffles drop to 30 Hz and actually have a touch more presence and upper midrange and treble extension would be exiting. So lets see what we can make happen! Steve |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 11/03/22 at 13:56:20 Thanks for posting the raw response! Except for the lowest octave, which is impressive, that looks a lot like what I was hearing with my original F15s at first. 10 or 12dB peaks and dips all over the midrange. Let's hope that these smooth out as well as the originals do. And let's hope you won't need any coils to make them work. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Randy in Caintuck on 11/05/22 at 01:29:00 I have been doing as much listening to the Fast-15 drivers as time will allow over the past few days. They have smoothed out a bit, but as Steve observed, they can be "recording dependent" at this point. On a "hot" or "thin" recording in my room and system, they can be unpleasant ..... but on a good recording they are a revelation. Happily for me, I have spent a good part of the past 15 years searching for music that is well recorded with a good tonal balance. I can say that I thoroughly enjoyed a two-hour session with the Fast-15 drivers last night. One of my customers who lives about 100 miles away (and has become an audio buddy) has told me that he really didn't care for the F-15 drivers at first. His original speakers had Betsy drivers and he added a second pair of baffles with the F-15 drivers. He stated that it took about 500 hours of playing time in his system before the F-15 baffles sounded good to him ..... and now he loves them. He will be visiting tomorrow to do an A/B between the F-15 and Fast-15 baffles in my room. I'm looking forward to his thoughts ..... If the worst-case scenario happens and the drivers do not "mature" as hoped, Steve's inductor fix might be the answer. However, based on the good things that I have heard so far ..... I am willing to be patient to see what some break-in time will reveal. Best wishes, Randy |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by JBzen on 11/05/22 at 10:16:38 It will be interesting to see the frequency response once the new F15s get 500 plus hours. Looks like the whizzer cone is going to be a tough wild cat taming. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by HockessinKid on 11/09/22 at 12:46:08 While I don't expect any early Fast 15 adopters have 500 hours on their drivers, does anyone want to provide an update? I am particularly interested if the elevated upper midrange and treble response that Steve measured has dissipated with additional hours. What say you folks? The Lii Audio free shipping extended offer ends tomorrow. Is the driver a real upgrade from the F15 driver or not in your opinion? HK |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by ProggRob on 11/09/22 at 13:25:03 I have 210 hrs on mine and things are getting interesting. More from me in the next few days when I get time to outline my journey. :-) |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by rabidseamonkey on 11/10/22 at 19:07:05 Bit of a lurker finally checking in... thanks everybody for all the discussion. I'll also be interested if anyone has any updated reflections before the free shipping promotion ends today. I'm no stranger to full range drivers with presence peaks, having lived with Lowthers for some time before I got my F-15. So, I'm not really looking to upset the apple cart in terms of the exceptional balance and coherency of the F-15s. I was searching for a response curve to compare with Steve's measurements of the new fast 15 drivers. Can't post the link/image here directly because it's my first post but it's #965 on page 20 of the Steve's Big Betsy Project thread. There are peaks and troughs of course but overall there's no "rising" response like with so many FR drivers. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Steve Deckert on 11/11/22 at 02:02:24 I have done some more work with the Fast 15 driver. Break-in is not going to change the frequency balance much, it just makes it sound less rashy while the peaks remain in place. My problem with them in our room compared to F15 drivers, is at 5kHz you have at best case a 6dB rise above the line where you ear probably settles into the bumped midrange. Rise isn't really accurate, because there is a peak following a dip exaggerating the contrast. So I got more parts in this week, both the 1mh and 2mh coils that I needed, and quickly found out that 1mH is more ideal but even that rolled off the top end response, so I played musical capacitor until I got the highs back. You can see the result of this below:  The Blue is the raw response. The Red is with a 1mH choke in parallel with a .68uF film cap. Notice that the phase inversion introduced by the capacitor creates an out of phase output relative to the original response so there is a hole where the peak was. Without the cap the response was fading fast after 10kHz. This is just two parts and they're in parallel. Still pretty Zen, but I listened to this and the hole at 6K made everything sound too smooth and soft. So we're going to need one more part... a resistor. It too will be in parallel with the first two parts. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Steve Deckert on 11/11/22 at 02:09:07 The value of the resistor will be critical. The resistor will overpower the capacitor and reduce the phase shift so we want to get it somewhere between the blue peak and the red hole. After clipping in different values I realized it's going to have to be dialed in perfectly, so I got an adjustable resistor and simply slid the adjustment around between each measurement until I got as good as it was going to get.  |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Steve Deckert on 11/11/22 at 02:29:33 The following is the result of putting each of the three parts together in parallel. Each line is the result of adjusting the resistor.  Below is the final result in light green.  |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Steve Deckert on 11/11/22 at 02:46:33 And here it is with the flat reference line. We still have a hole but the overall response is far more listenable.  Final value for the resistor was 36.5 ohms. Here is the schematic: The switch is so the network can be disabled.  |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Geno on 11/11/22 at 02:55:51 Steve, Have you been in touch with Lii about this? Just wondering what their opinion of this is? Very interesting! Best, Geno |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Steve Deckert on 11/11/22 at 03:06:29 It's good you bring that up, because I can assure you they will firmly stand behind their original voicing. They make many versions each different and listen to them, choosing the best 100% by ear. A presence peak can be very appealing, especially from a 15 inch driver. But, in my room as an amplifier designer, I need a flat speaker that doesn't EQ the response. I have that with the F15. I will test this network over the next week or two and see if it can win me over. The drivers have great potential even for me. Steve |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by HockessinKid on 11/11/22 at 11:38:56 Steve, Thanks for the update, your workaround efforts and insights. Always very helpful to your many customers. HK |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Randy in Caintuck on 11/11/22 at 18:19:50 As mentioned in my previous post ..... "One of my customers who lives about 100 miles away (and has become an audio buddy) has told me that he really didn't care for the F-15 drivers at first. His original speakers had Betsy drivers and he added a second pair of baffles with the F-15 drivers. He stated that it took about 500 hours of playing time in his system before the F-15 baffles sounded good to him ..... and now he loves them. He will be visiting tomorrow to do an A/B between the F-15 and Fast-15 baffles in my room." Here are the results of the visit ..... We spent several hours doing an A/B of the F-15 and Fast-15 drivers in identical baffles. I asked him to share his thoughts during the session without providing any of my opinions or observations in advance. The results were that his observations were nearly identical to mine. The following is just my opinion (in my listening room with my equipment and playing music that I enjoy and consider "well recorded") and should be taken as such ..... The Fast-15 drivers certainly are "lively" sounding. I still have some music in my library that is "hot" or "thin" and if a person's music falls into this category, these are probably not the drivers for you. On the vast majority of the music in my library, these drivers are a revelation. They combine the lower midrange / upper bass response of the original F-15 drivers with the speed and upper frequency response of the Lii Audio Silver-10 drivers. They create a HUGE soundstage / stereo image when the recording contains such information. The separation and space between instruments and vocalists is excellent. My system includes a third baffle with a Lii Audio W-15 bass driver which adds a nice "foundation" to the music and has to be factored into my final take on these drivers. The addition of a ZROCK2 in the mix works very well ..... at least for me. So, there you have it. I also expect them to improve with additional break in. Based on my experience, every Lii Audio driver has a "raw" sound until well broken in. Conclusion - if a person has reservations about the suitability of these drivers for their system, go for the original F-15 drivers. If the solution to "tame" these drivers that Steve is working on pans out to his satisfaction, that will be an answer for many buyers. Happy listening, Randy |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Palomino on 11/11/22 at 19:44:49 Thanks for everyone's input. I am probably going to just stick with the original F15s for now. I augment them with a tweeter (up firing) and a sub. I know some folks lean more to a purist approach, but this works for me. Of my two OBs that I have now, the F15s are the more easy listening speakers while the Crystal 10/Acoustic Elegance LO15 speakers are my more critical listening speakers. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kahuna Jack on 11/11/22 at 19:58:03 what is the phase plug made of ? acrylic or wood.... hard to tell in photos. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by HockessinKid on 11/11/22 at 20:59:44 Palomino, I am also going to hold onto my original F-15's, they just sound too good in my set up. Plus, I need to replace my TT cartridge soon and get a good protractor for installation. I think this will be money better spent. HK |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by astro-chris on 11/11/22 at 21:42:26 Hi Palomino, If it's not too much trouble, could you elaborate on how you augment your F15s with the upfiring tweeter? Thanks so much, Chris |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Palomino on 11/11/22 at 22:03:52 I made a little "platform" out of baltic birch that has two legs that straddles the top of my baffle. I use a bit of foam to ensure a tight fit and no rattles. The tweeter is on top of each platform held in place with blu tak. I use blu tak because I changed out the tweeters. I have tried a couple I had lying around. I then have a capacitor which limits how low the tweeter plays. I don't remember the value, but I set it to start a bit lower than the F15 will play up to. At this point, I am pretty closely matched in terms of tweeter and F15 sensitivity so I don't use a resister or L-pad to quiet the tweeter down. Then for fun, I made "tweeter balls" which are suspended over the up firing tweeter with a wire to disperse the tweeter sound waves.  https://imgur.com/3TT4syF For some reason, the picture function is not working for me, but click on the link. This is a picture of my other baffles with the Crystal 10 but I also use it for the F15 baffles. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Donnie on 11/11/22 at 22:20:17 As if by magic! 
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Palomino on 11/11/22 at 22:23:25 Tell me what you did oh Donnie-wan. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Donnie on 11/11/22 at 22:30:30 Pal, I cheated is what I did! Went to your link, copied the picture address and then put it in my Imgur account, resized it to large thumbnail, copied the picture address by right clicking on the picture, then pasting it between the IMG thingies on here. The secret is the right clicking and copying the address there, I can never get their links to work. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by PaulInWA60 on 11/11/22 at 22:38:36 Is the capacitor in series or in parallel with the tweeter? When you have a chance I would love to know what value you settled on. I have a couple of spare tweeters that would be fun to try this with. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Palomino on 11/11/22 at 22:39:18 Well thank you. Now everybody can see my tweeter balls. I'm using a better tweeter now and a better cap. I don't know how much high end extension I am getting but I hear more more "air." |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Palomino on 11/11/22 at 22:48:29 Cap is on the +, 3.3uf What you use will depend on the ohm rating on your tweeter. Mine are 4 ohm so around 12K. There are various calculators out there on the web you can use. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by astro-chris on 11/11/22 at 23:23:06 Awesome; thank you, Palomino! What tweeter are you using currently? best, Chris |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Palomino on 11/11/22 at 23:53:37 A Dayton audio AMT4. I have it leftover from my W1808 / 15A build. It’s a little lower sensitivity than I need but much better than the vifa I had laying around. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by astro-chris on 11/14/22 at 00:15:08 Thanks, Palomino! So, did you use this tweeter: https://www.daytonaudio.com/product/1166/amt2-4-air-motion-transformer-tweeter-4-ohm OR this one: https://www.parts-express.com/search?keywords=275-094 Just to be sure I have the right one. Also the 3.3uF cap is being used with this Dayton tweeter; correct? Thanks so much, Chris |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 11/14/22 at 13:47:18 Not with my F15s yet, but I also tried a tweeter set up before with my Visaton arrangement. I built a little hexagon box with a tweeter on each facet, all in series and had a single upward firing tweet in parallel with those six. 8 Ohms in parallel with 48 Ohms (but there were six of those). I had used a little Vifa from Parts Express for this. It definitely added to the elusive "air" we all seem to want more of. It did not last long, though. I kept increasing the resistor to greater values, bringing it down more and more. After a couple of weeks I decided that I already had enough tweet sounds without the box. I did not know anything about tweeter balls, though. It is now somewhere in the attic, but it did make for and omni-directional presentation for the top octave. My crossover frequency was about 10K. Kind of curious for more info about the upfiring ribbon, though. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Palomino on 11/14/22 at 14:49:10 Hi Chris, I used the second one, but only because I had it lying around. I am thinking about researching and buying something else. Having heard a high quality tweeter in Steve's house speakers has left me thinking a better tweeter might help. Not that the AMT is a slouch, but its not in the league with what Steve had. The AMT Pro4 is also large, not as efficient and does not go as high as I would like. The little vifa tweeter in the photo goes higher and is more efficient, but was not as good a quality. Now that I've done the proof of concept A/B testing, I do think an up firing tweeter does help the sound in my room. Now to find the right tweeter. Also, yes, the 3.3uf goes on the positive terminal of whatever tweeter you use. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by astro-chris on 11/14/22 at 16:08:43 Hi Palomino, Thanks so much! do you happen to know which tweeter Steve was using in his house speakers? He seems to have a knack for finding the best :-) Thanks again, Chris |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Palomino on 11/14/22 at 16:35:47 See the house speaker build thread. I don't know the specs on this one to know if its a candidate but I though it sounded great and I heard details I haven't heard in a number of recordings. ScanSpeak Revelator R2904/7000-09 Tweeter. - $345 ea. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by astro-chris on 11/15/22 at 13:53:17 Thanks, Palomino! Ouch; those are a bit rich for my blood :-/ Please keep me posted as you experiment with replacing your tweeters. best, Chris |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 11/17/22 at 03:45:32 Loic has them. Just a short clip for now—hopefully detailed impressions soon. https://youtu.be/7boJ-tIUuME |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Palomino on 11/17/22 at 13:40:48 Thanks for posting. You can definitely hear the upper mids and highs. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by PaulInWA60 on 11/18/22 at 10:39:52 I'm going to build a large barrel open baffle speaker with the Lii Fast-15 drivers. I'm curious if anyone has an opinion about MDF vs plywood and a single 3/4" sheet versus gluing two 3/4" sheets together. Obviously, Decware uses thick hardwood but that is beyond my abilities. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 11/18/22 at 11:41:43 Hi, and welcome, Paul. I have done a number of mock-up, proof of concept type of builds in recent years using various open baffle ideas. One thing you run up against rather early in trying to get sound out of a flat-ish panel is that the drivers will need to have something to push against. In other words, a very stable, heavy base or foundation. One thickness of anything is not going to be stable enough for the drivers you are considering. Right now I am using a new mock up with the Original F15 drivers. I used an MDF core and have a plywood outer sandwich on each side. It does OK, but even with three thicknesses, (two and a quarter inches thick) of constructed wood materials, I can still make them sound off as if they are too lightly constructed. And that's with just a handful of watts pushing them. You will need to add mass! Remember, Steve talks about how his were about half done and he could not pick them up alone. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Palomino on 11/18/22 at 14:53:01 I've built MDF and Baltic Birch Ply baffles and like the livelier sound of the Baltic Birch. I also made my Betsys out of hardwood stair treads which I like, but I should have doubled up on the treads. If I had the money/skill I would make the thick hardwood baffles as Steve did. Steve's go lower and sound fuller than mine. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 11/18/22 at 15:50:20 I have seen those heavy oak and maple stair treads and was filled with ideas about how they might work out for OB panels. One of the fellows here made some open baffles out of custom counter top glue ups. I think it was Geno who first clued me to the Custom Install catalog from Lowe's, for instance? You have to get out of the "local pick up" (default) areas of the website and search for hardwood counter tops. Amazingly, they are not that expensive for fairly thick hardwood blanks that you can cut to shape yourself. Doubling some of those up will probably be my next build. BTW, Paul, your wood working skill set does not have to be very high to achieve successes and you can use almost any hand held jig saw to do the hard work. Some sanding the cut lines and you will be well on your way. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Palomino on 11/18/22 at 16:08:05 I think you can see pictures of my construction process on the original Big Betsy thread. The countertop idea is far less complex. I don't know about the cost vs the treads - especially if you doubled up. I was at the hardwood store the other day and if you went three wide by 42 tall, it would run around $450 as the price of wood remains relatively high. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by PaulInWA60 on 11/18/22 at 21:19:04 Thanks for the input and suggestions. It sounds like at least doubling up the panels is necessary. This is a for yucks kind of project, the Fast 15's are unlikely to become my main speakers so cost is a factor which rules out the butcher block and hardwood options. I wonder if combining plywood and MDF would be a good compromise? @Same Old DD I couldn't move a 3 layer baffle so that is out but did you think combining MDF and Plywood had a benefit? |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Palomino on 11/18/22 at 23:26:38 I don’t know about a hybrid. It could be ok. I’d suggest that over double MDF. I just thought that sounded dead. Maybe try some good plywood. Baltic is expensive but maybe something just below that could be the ticket. I have a hard time letting go of anything but I burned my doubled mdf baffles. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 11/19/22 at 01:07:19 Loic’s review. Watching right now: https://youtu.be/-7tehc2-lQk |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 11/19/22 at 22:08:21 Paul, I used what materials I could find locally. And yes I do believe that using a more dense product (MDF) for the middle layer adds to some stability required. None of what I used is going to add up to enough to compete with some thick, solid hardwood, however. As I mentioned, this mock up was an early phase of "try things out and see what happens" with something new to me I had just acquired, which was the Original F15 drivers. Which I absolutely hated at first, BTW. Love them, now! They will need a great deal of break in time. Then, you will have a difficult time ever turning them off! They sounded thin and transistor radioey at first, but after a thousand hours or so, they sound rich, thick, detailed, precise and Established. Mine have a home, now. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by PaulInWA60 on 11/20/22 at 01:48:23 A thousand hours is a lot. I have a detached carriage house that I suppose I could set the drivers up in and simply let them play for 6 weeks before I even start worrying about building the baffle! |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 11/20/22 at 04:57:02 I do not mean to discourage you again, Paul. I feel I was a bit harsh with my first post to you. Sorry, but that part was more about physics. I have a little over a thousand or so hours on mine. So, they are newish to me still and they have sounded pretty darn good for more than half that time. Some guys say a hundred hours was fine for them. One guy said his sounded great right out of the box. Mine did not sound fine right out of the box, but rather disappointing. I received my pair with a very high Fs, which did not match the advertised specification by more than an octave. I beat the crap out of mine for about three weeks and they reached a more palatable low range with a much more smooth mid range during that time. Last I read about Steve's experience with his new Fast 15 drivers, he was still breaking them in. They looked great down low on a response curve, not so smooth up through the spectrum, but he is still working with them. As I mentioned before, I have no experience with the newer Fast 15 drivers. When I went to try for my own experience with the Fast 15 drivers they were out of stock with no availability timeline offered. So, I bought the older F15 model. Those arrived in about a week. YMMV! Don't let one guy on the internet bother you. I was just relating my still very fresh exposure to these things while trying my best to be honest. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 11/20/22 at 06:27:38 My baffles from Randy will ship on Monday. Also planning to purchase a cheap SS 25 wpc amp to give the drivers a workout prior to the first real listening session and perhaps rotate between listening and break-in for the first couple of weeks. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 11/20/22 at 06:32:22 Speaking of Caintuck Baffles, here’s one on Audiomart right now with the original F-15 drivers. As per my observation, these come up few and far between. https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649920676-caintuck-audio-lii-open-baffle15/ |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by JBzen on 11/20/22 at 10:13:50 Those sold fast! Dennis Had quad 300b is still up for grabs. John |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 11/23/22 at 22:03:46 Super excited to share that I received the baffles commissioned for the Fast 15 Drivers from Randy earlier today. It’s a combination of Walnut and African Sapele, and looks drop dead gorgeous. Randy also recently decided to switch the base from poplar to red oak, mentioning that not only do they look nicer, but also are heavier and more solid. I keep going down to the basement just to lovingly stare at them from various angles! The packaging was top notch. One big carton securely contained both baffles and every side protected by thick foam. And the cherry on top? Randy also packed a CD with some tracks for me try out! I had prepped for this day. Earlier this week, I got a small (think palm of my hand small) SS amp and a pair of cheap speaker cables to break these puppies in vs. wasting my tubes. I have connected my Amazon Echo via the auxiliary input on the amp and will ask Alexa to run a playlist on repeat, while I go visit my in-laws for a couple of days. Taking a leaf out of Same Old DD’s book, I’ve wired them in reverse, facing each other, and intend to also put some blankets on top to contain the sound. If I can find it, plan to install a remote camera so I can monitor the listening room from afar. I will probably connect it to my main rig sometime next week and will share my thoughts once I have at least 100+ Hours of playtime. https://ibb.co/xFr9xf2 https://ibb.co/0QR1V8Y https://ibb.co/88JN1dK |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by will on 11/23/22 at 22:30:23 Those do look nice, even carrying the yellow pretty well! Looking forward to what you hear! Will |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by PaulInWA60 on 11/23/22 at 22:30:39 Boy that outer ring really is quite bright. I ordered my Fast-15s about a month ago but no reason to believe they have even shipped yet. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kahuna Jack on 11/24/22 at 00:03:35 good looking baffles Kamran ! hope to hear about your transition from Klipsch to Lii Audio's . |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Tony on 11/24/22 at 00:43:31 Those drivers and baffles are striking! The more I looked, the more I liked the combination. Take care of those babies. By the way, what time in the early morning will you be getting up for their first feeding? :) |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Randy in Caintuck on 11/25/22 at 17:33:50 Kamran's baffles .....  Larger photo here. Happy listening, Randy |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 11/25/22 at 18:25:26 Thanks guys—babies are breaking in at home while I’m at my in-laws for thanksgiving break. I had to change the color combination of the bafffles once I received the drivers a couple of weeks ago. Randy was very accommodating and the final result is just breathtaking. All I can tell you is that they sound mighty good even covered under 3 layers of blankets facing each other! As of now, I’ve put on 35 hours. Plan is to get at least 100 (if not more) before I insert in to the main rig. I’ve set up a nest cam so I can make sure music is still playing and trying to stop in person for a couple of minutes to gauge the temperature of the small SS amp—yesterday, it was still cool to the touch after playing for 15 hrs. I’ll probably stop by again today. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Palomino on 11/25/22 at 19:03:19 Those look very good. Makes the outer ring color work. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Tony on 11/26/22 at 03:11:09 "Makes the outer ring color work." That was my same thought. I am not sure how it look with a different wood color, but I liked that combo. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Steve Deckert on 11/26/22 at 03:46:42 UPDATE 11/25/22 500 hour mark has been hit after leaving them on 24/7 since my first post. Network is installed.  Using the anything but soft Zen TORII Monos on the speakers during the break-in (which I did on purpose to make them sound as bad as possible to make it easier to hear anything I didn't like) actually sounded good with the network added and even though I haven't done much sweet spot listening prior to the network, I have since and to my ears and room it sounded quite good at that point... Yesterday in celebration of the 500 hour mark I re-installed my well seasoned F15's and listened all evening to set a benchmark. Also I used the Sarah 300B amp. It was superb, just how I remember it. That amplifier loves these baffles. So tonight I installed the Fast15's and lit up the Sarah 300B amp. Everything exactly as it was last night, just different drivers with the network installed at the amplifier because there is no need to put frequencies in the cable that you aren't going to use. So far I am so blown away by the midrange that I haven't gotten to analyzing the bass, but imaging and soundstage passes with flying colors and if the midrange magic were compared to how chocolate tastes, we just switched from consumer grade to some kind of gourmet chocolate. Another way to describe it in a single word might be -- wet or alive[/]... I got it, the word is [i]juicy! So now I guess the test will be to see how long I want to leave them in the baffles. Tonight I can't imagine it happening, but days to months spent with my music library will be the great test. The bass is different, not as textured, but very natural and organic sounding with great scale and weight that are both even better than before. So we loose a little punch but the bass gets much larger and deeper so an acceptable tradeoff in fact this is what underpins some of the juiciness. My congratulations to Leo at Lii Song and his team. I have no doubt this will be a popular driver with or without the network. Going from 50Hz to 30Hz in the large baffles would have been enough, but to have this midrange on top of it easily makes the value of the driver greatly exceed the price. I am still amazed that these large baffles will go down flat to 30Hz with a single driver. I'm pretty sure I've never heard classic 70's rock sound this good. Steve |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Steve Deckert on 11/26/22 at 04:01:15   A match made in heaven. By far this would be the biggest most fun sounding combo I could come up with. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Steve Deckert on 11/26/22 at 17:03:27  https://youtu.be/0fdqCUTE0FA If you want to hear it for yourself. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Lon on 11/26/22 at 17:04:13 Nice to see those voltage regulation tubes glowing! |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 11/26/22 at 19:41:23 Thanks for sharing your observations as it relates to the break-in period involved with these drivers Steve. That YT sound clip floored me! My only question from your post last night was regarding the network. Not entirely sure what you meant when you said network installed and or network added? Update: I actually have one more question. Were the drivers on 24/7 at any particular minimum volume threshold? Trying to ascertain how low I can go, while still being effective. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Edsonic on 11/27/22 at 13:15:25 Quote:
Steve explains the high frequency issue in post #152 in this thread, also providing a graph of his own measurement. His proposed remedy involves use of one ea. inductor coil, capacitor, and resistor, to moderately smooth out the valley followed by a peak that these speakers have in the upper region. That discussion, with explanations and graphs, occurs in posts #159 - #162 in this thread. The three passive elements constitute a 'network.' |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by EdwardT on 11/27/22 at 14:41:54 AKA notch filter, a network of components to adjust for response peaks. And well played with just three parts. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Steve Deckert on 11/27/22 at 20:23:38 I have been testing someones ZROCK2 in my system this weekend just to make sure it has no intermittent issues... and since it was installed I decided to try the filter A B switch. I always listen to the ZROCK2 with the switch in the position that does not roll off the highs. Without adjusting the dial, I flipped the switch to the more rolled setting. Of course set flat where I have it, it really doesn't start rolling the highs much, but the gain does drop a touch and sound does change a little. I wouldn't say it was dramatic but rather just detectable. If the gain hadn't dropped it would be very hard to hear that anything had happened. Then I got in the listening chair and the entire sound stage had moved back and focused up and has me wondering if this might actually be the best sound stage I have ever had in my system. I love good 3D imaging with super depth and width and this is pushing all the right buttons. The combination of the network and the ZROCK2 set in this manner is creating a soundstage that is hard to believe using the Sarah 300B. As you know the Sarah has a switch that using it's own internal ZROCK technology bumps the sound stage back or forward, whatever is your preference. I generally like it in the back position because I like a lot of depth. So it is the combination of these four elements (ZROCK2, SARAH Voicing switch and tube compliment, the NETWORK and the FAST15's response in our large baffle that has created this magic. One interesting thing is the null in my room at 30~40Hz at the listening chair. This is created from the open doorway on the sound end of the room. I have fixed it in the past with a door that blocks the lower half of the opening, but constantly opening that door to walk in and out of the room was a hassle. With the F15's rolling off at 50Hz, this null is never noticed from the listening chair. Last night I did a serious round of listening and found myself wondering when I was going to hear the 30Hz stuff because the bass was no better than before with the F15. Then I remembered the null. So I moved my chair back 4 feet out of the null and did some more listening. I was fairly amazed at the amount of low end these speakers have. It's subwoofer bass, the kind you would get from two large 15 inch subwoofers. Equally amazing is all the ultra low bass that was in many of the tracks I played, that I didn't know was there with this kind of prominence. The experience was like having two large subs added to the system and getting them perfectly integrated and time aligned and having those subs driven by an identical tube amplifier with identical speaker cable and interconnects and power cords and tubes. This makes me realize that creating small or skinny baffles with the F15 or Fast15 mounted high in the baffle is a mistake because those baffle designs have no bass by comparison to this. So a W15 woofer gets involved in yet another baffle to give you bass. It is less efficient and requires more power. Now you need two amps, and more or bigger baffles, additional cables and so on. All of this is likely to consume more space in your room than a simple pair of ZF15L baffles and unless the W15 is actually in a large and wide enough baffle it's highly unlikely you will hit 30Hz with it. I was never a big fan of wide speakers - favoring narrow "audiophile" towers that "imaged well". Randy of Caintuck Audio who designed this barrel shaped baffle changed all that. I am convinced it is one of the best open baffle designs there is by gracefully handling energy within the panel to the degree that baffle step compensation is never needed unless your driver sucks. In fact, this design if you notice is a free floating baffle. There is no frame to secure it, etc., just a high mass base that it bolts into. That means the term "baffle" is misleading. It is so because we all view a good speaker baffle as something that is as inert as possible. Yet on this design, yes it is very dense, but it is a transducer -- meaning that the entire 'baffle' is vibrating to create a sound wave. This means that the woofer is mounted in a transducer that extends its size to the entire area of the 'baffle'. Since the driver is mounted in a transducer which carries the sound away from the driver out to the edges of the arc any baffle step in the response should be nearly undetectable. The ever changing shape from the arc on either side of the baffle evenly distributes the energy across a wide band of frequencies. In contrast if it were a square board, there would be four triangles attached to the arcs where once the energy passed the line of the arc, it would then see decreasing mass and launch most of that energy into the tip. What didn't launch from the tip would then reflect back to the line of the arc causing hateful harmonic distortion in the panel corners and a fair amount of discord in the panel itself. A baffle like that would become unlistenable at higher volumes, and at normal listening levels it would easily locate itself. Anyway the design is brilliant and even after many years it continues to amaze me how well it works. Hats off to Randy!  |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Lon on 11/27/22 at 20:33:37 Interesting to learn about the 300B switching as far as "forward" and "back" and the combined sound staging adding the ZROCK2 and the use of the other EQ curve than you usually use. I usually use the treble-reducing curve, in fact I very very rarely use the other curve. Looking forward to experimenting with the ZROCK2 and 300B. One question: as you are using 75C1 tubes now . . . can 0A2 and 0B2 tubes be used in these spots as well? |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 11/28/22 at 01:45:25 Edsonic and EdwardT, thanks for the clarification on the ‘network’. While I do recall the specific posts you mentioned, didn’t realize that particular band limiting tool aka notch filter is known as the network. My mind went to the Cambridge streamer and I was like how the heck was Steve feeding Sarah a signal without his Ethernet/Wi-Fi network, which is what I associate that term with. It would be lovely if Steve can share pictures of this filter so we can see it in action. For those that are technically challenged, and wanted a similar network, I’m wondering what options are available to get it pre-assembled, to make it plug & play? Steve’s follow-up post on the ZROCK2 adding it’s magic is music to my ears (no pun intended) as I just ordered one on Black Friday. Back home now and have put on approx. 75 hours on the drivers. Going to wait a couple more days and hit at least 100 before I conduct a proper listening session. I heartily recommend that cheap Nobsound amp to anyone who wants to break-in gear without wasting tube life. After running extensively for multiple days, it is still cool to the touch. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Brian on 11/28/22 at 03:04:59 Thank you, Steve for the tutorial on how the Randy Baffle works. I always enjoy learning this sort of thing. Brian |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Steve Deckert on 11/28/22 at 16:43:52 Quote:
Yes, this is a voicing tool, just like on the SE84UFO25. The following tubes work 75C1 = 75V OC3 = 75V OB2 = 115V OA2 = 150V The difference between running an OC3 and an OA2 is big. It will completely change the sound of any tube it serves. Very powerful voicing tool. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Steve Deckert on 11/28/22 at 16:55:12 Quote:
Sure, all I have to do is press the Upload images button and drag my pictures into the box. Code is automatically inserted in your post.  |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Steve Deckert on 11/28/22 at 17:06:40    |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 11/28/22 at 17:31:40 Thanks Steve! |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Randy in Caintuck on 11/28/22 at 18:38:24 Steve wrote ..... Quote:
Many thanks for the kind words, Steve ..... As the readers of this forum know, I am not a "numbers guy" and the only "analytic equipment" I own is attached to the sides of my head ..... I only know what I am hearing, with my reference being live acoustic instruments and vocals ..... LOL I have built dozens of open baffles of various sizes and shapes since 2015 and the shape that always sounded best to me was the "barrel" shape that I'm building now. I have no idea why it sounds good, just what my ears are telling me. After carefully reading all of your comments about the Fast-15 drivers and comparing them to the ones I have posted in this thread. it seems like we are hearing pretty much the same thing. In my room and system, the results are definitely "recording dependent" ..... but unless the recording is "hot" or tonally "thin", the Fast-15 drivers are giving me some of the very best sound that I have ever heard. As previously mentioned, they combine the lower midrange and upper bass of the F-15 driver with many of the qualities of the Silver-10 driver. As a bonus, they produce more low bass. I have a few recordings that actually have too much bass when the W-15 baffle is in the system (connected in passive mode with low pass filters). Apparently, the Fast-15 drivers are duplicating some of the frequencies that the W-15 driver is playing and there is some overlap. This isn't an issue with the F-15 or any of the smaller Lii Audio drivers. I'm still experimenting, but it's quite possible that using the ZROCK2 with the Fast-15 drivers (without the W-15 baffle) might be the best option when used in the baffles I am building ..... The Fast-15 drivers sound great with my SE84UFO and also with my custom built 300B (Takatsuki tubes) ..... two totally different sounds ..... both excellent. You used the terms "juicy" and "organic" describing the sound of the Fast-15 drivers with your 300B amp and I am hearing the same things in my room. They have a "life" and a realism that is totally amazing with a good recording .....  Looking forward to Decware Fest 2023 ..... Best wishes, Randy |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Lon on 11/28/22 at 20:18:43 Thanks Steve. I have used all three types (0A2, 0B2, 0C2) in the monoblocks and it's great to have these to tailor the sound with, will look forward to trying them out on the 300B. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by PaulInWA60 on 12/02/22 at 23:44:57 Fast 15's came today. I hooked them up and they do play and don't sound awful just lying on the floor. I'm going to put them in my detached garage and just let them play for 2-3 weeks before I stick them in a baffle. As you can see from the picture the surround really is quite yellow. Two questions, These are supposed to be a drop in replacement for the F-15 so I'm curious how large an opening most people used with the F15s? There is 14" on the inner dimension of the rims but the visible part of the black cone is 11.25" and the total black cone is 12" so there is 1 3/8" of visible yellow in the driver. I do have a small baffle I built for a Trio 15 clone with a 13.5" opening and I have no idea how covering different amounts of the cone effect things. Also, the yellow material partially blocks the bolt holes. I assume you just cut through or poke through that to mount? Hopefully pictures are attached.  
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 12/03/22 at 00:04:07 I had the same question with the yellow partially blocking the holes so I had reached out to Randy and he said it was totally fine to poke a hole through—it won’t damage anything. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by astro-chris on 12/03/22 at 20:01:43 Do the original 15s and the new Fast 15s need to be rear-mounted on an open baffle, or can they be front-mounted in a routed hole to be flush with the front of the baffle? Thanks! Chris |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Mannytheseacow on 12/03/22 at 21:41:34 My original f15s are front mounted, slightly recessed, and flush with the front of the baffle. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by cpucath on 12/08/22 at 15:50:56 New member here. After a 17 month wait, I am about 20 amps away from getting my SE84UFO2. Also waiting on Baffle from Caintuck. I decided to go with the Fast 15 which just arrived. I have been playing them on the floor to "break" them in. They sound somewhat anemic with little bass currently. Is that what others have found when listening to them without the baffle? |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 12/08/22 at 16:39:49 Yup, pretty much the same experience with the drivers without baffles . The baffles will certainly add to it, but in my experience breaking them in, bass starts to flush out around the 200 hr mark. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Randy in Caintuck on 12/08/22 at 16:39:53 Hi cpucath, Yep ..... without the baffle and coupling to the floor, the tonal balance will be VERY thin. When mounted in the baffles, the sound will be totally different. In addition, the bass becomes much better after about 200 hours of break-in time. Best wishes, Randy |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by ArtMan on 12/08/22 at 17:49:43 I upgraded my baffle from the F15 to the Fast15 and the bass was anemic for at least the first 50 hours. At that point I noticed the bass begin to approach the point of having equivalent bass as the F15. It continues to evolve at the 100 hour mark and the bass now goes deeper than the F15. 200 hours sounds about right for bass break-in. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 12/12/22 at 02:31:26 320 hours in. The leap of faith (to get the Fast 15) was an astounding success. I’ll wax poetic later. This has to hold for now. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 12/13/22 at 02:37:16  For now, I’ve changed my mind on selling the Klipsch towers—not because I was necessarily missing them sonically, but the room was looking a bit bare and naked without them. I’m sure room measurements will prove that the backwave reflections are getting all screwy but I don’t seem to notice a big difference, if any. The OB setup continues to blossom and now I have my 5.2.4 HT system back. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Tony on 12/13/22 at 15:21:33 Kamran, The room looks great. Initially, I thought the yellow circle around the OB driver might clash, but it somehow matches or contrasts nicely with the wood. I recognize the GIK room treatments. John has just sent me my second round of absorbers, which should finish the task in my room. That was a good referral, thanks. Tony |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 12/14/22 at 04:25:18 Thanks Tony. Happy to make the right choice too with the combination. I was sweating bullets when I finalized the choice, but should have trusted my instincts. Glad you had a good experience with John at GIK. Next year, I plan to take care of the space to the left of the front stage. Anything short of an annual cadence on this front will be sure to annoy my better half so I need to bide my time. The itch is a little less right now once I moved the towers back in and the front stage looks fuller. Update: I finally switched to my favorite 6V6 tubes after using the excellent Gold Lion KT77s and happy to report OB’s didn’t miss a beat with nearly half the power output (10 wpc vs. 5 wpc). And this was after pounding them with bass heavy tracks for 2 hrs. Is the bass ideal yet? Not necessarily (I won’t mind a little more punch), but at the same time (and on some tracks), I also find it very clean, very tight, and very satisfying. Sort of a love hate relationship, if you will. I also switched the rectifier to a Mazda 5Y3. So its a consortium of French (Visseaux 6V6, Mazda 5Y3), Russian (Melz 1578), on the Had amp and American tubes (RCA and KR) on the preamp. 350 hrs in….My resolve to continue following the break-in routine is weakening by the day since they are already sounding so good. P.s. I also flipped the preamp 6SN7 tubes around after a long time…with the Ken-Rad VT-231s in the input gain stage and the RCA Grey Glass on cathode follower duty. I haven’t listened to a 6SN7 with better bass then the Ken-Rad, so I figured it would compensate for dropping the power output to half for the driver tubes on the Had amp. 
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 12/17/22 at 07:02:44 Rocking out with 5 watts. 
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 12/22/22 at 04:10:05 Hours away from hitting 500. Attempting to share every thought and emotion (while tempting) is not only going to be both physically and mentally challenging, but also will make it a very tedious read. Who needs that—so, let’s take our time and enjoy this in stages, shall we? The Disappearing Act I’ve lost count the number of times I’ve heard reviewers mention how their speakers disappeared and always wondered how in the nine hells do you make furniture grade objects disappear? An evil verbal trickery to get you to buy this shit!—shouted my inner cynic. However, my inner romantic won that debate every time, concluding that it had to be one of those ‘I’ll know it when I see it (or hear it?)’ kind of situations—that good things happened to people, who waited. Well, I was rewarded. And then some… The size of the Caintuck Audio baffles (and the lovely handle) makes it stupid easy to endlessly play placement bingo in your room. With my previous Klipsch RP-8000f towers, and limited speaker wire length, I never really had that kind of luxury before. This freedom of movement is simultaneously exhilarating and overwhelming (in a good way). I’ve had them 6 ft from the front wall and now 5 ft. I have had them 7 ft apart and now 6 ft. I’m sure I’ll continue to muck around with it. It’s as if the the speakers are taunting me….’try and localize me now bitch’. Yet (to my delight), I’ve failed. They only bring attention to themselves when the recording is mixed in such a way that emphasizes forward projecting sounds coming from either speaker (in other words, it’s meant to be localized). Most of the time, they are impossible to spot. I can’t get enough of this illusion. All the magic happens behind the speakers, which I’ll explore (separately) in the sound stage section. For now, I’ll leave you with this: There are three acts of any magic trick. First comes The Pledge: The magician shows you something relatively ordinary, like a 15 inch full-range driver that has potential. Second is The Turn: The magician takes the driver and makes it fit in a 1.5 inch thick Magnum Caintuck baffle. Finally, there’s The Prestige: The magician tops play and the speakers disappear. Bastardized from ‘The Prestige’ by Yours Truly 
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Brad on 12/27/22 at 13:25:17 @Kamran are you using Steve's corrective circuit in post #162 on your Fast-15s? https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1658916276/162#162 |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 12/28/22 at 03:15:57 No, not yet. I don’t have the technical chops to do that myself and open to outsourcing it. That said, they are sounding pretty darn good without it. I’m going to try and post more observations during the next couple of days. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Mannytheseacow on 12/28/22 at 20:40:14 I was slightly interested in this project just to build for fun but since I don't have the Fast 15's I didn't see a purpose. I priced it out at about $75 using decent quality parts, not including an enclosure of some sort. I could easily throw a pair together for you, Kamran, as I'm sure several folks here would be willing to do. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 12/28/22 at 21:17:46 Thanks Mannytheseacow, I am interested and will PM you after the holidays to explore this further. Continuing with my observations—next up: Soundstage and Imaging I recall watching one of those “Ask Paul” (from PS Audio) videos recently about soundstage and he mentioned something that completely blew my mind. According to Paul (paraphrasing here), while the soundstage has height, width and depth ques (sometimes more-sometimes less), the actual stage itself is set behind the speakers. Not in-between them. Not in front of them. But firmly behind them. That was both an eye opening revelation as well as a puzzling one. How the heck is that illusion pulled off, I wondered. Then I proceeded to shit on my Klipsch towers—they never did that! The stage (or lack thereof) was firmly between them, with the occasional sneak peek above and to the sides, and with decidedly zero depth. But, I realized they were also very close to the front wall, so it wasn’t fair to knock them without proper placement—something given the heft and weight, I wasn’t comfortable doing. They key here was giving the speakers enough room to breath—strongly preferred for box speakers and basically required for Open Baffle. As alluded to in my previous post, it’s ridiculously easy to move these baffles as long as you have sufficiently long speaker cables. With the Fast 15s set 5 ft from the front wall, the stage is firmly set behind the speakers, with extension in all three dimensions, and the imaging of each instrument is not only laser etched in terms of position but occupies it’s own distinct bubble without any smearing. In other words, each instrument can be more easily identified in its respective space within the stage. It’s not like I didn’t enjoy my previous setup, but this…. Magic is all about structure,-“You’ve got to take the observer from the ordinary, to the extraordinary, to the astounding. Ricky Jay--Magician —1946 to 2018 |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by GroovySauce on 12/30/22 at 21:38:43 Kamran, Good to hear your stereo is going in a pleasing direction. Blue tape all over the floor is a constant in all my stereo setups for a long time. Hopefully soon I'll pull it all up and be set. What are your setup distances? Speaker to speaker (from center) and speaker to listening position? I like an almost equilateral triangle. Seems to give the best balance of everything. Example: 10'7" between speakers and 10'10" speaker to listening position. If you don't have a laser measure and a laser level, pick them up! They will save you countless hours of tweaking. 1/8 of an inch makes a difference. Throwing a thick soft blanket over the TV should bring an improvement. Off topic, Did you received your Innuos Pulse? What are your impressions? |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 12/31/22 at 22:18:30 Thanks Groovy Sauce. Your advice and suggestions has been really helpful. Currently the speaker distances are as follows: Both baffles just over 5 ft from the front wall Each baffle is 3ft 4 inches from each side wall Baffles are 6ft 6 inches apart from each other (phase plug to phase plug) Listening position is approx. 10.5 ft. From each speaker as my couch is set by the rear wall. The only way to make an equilateral triangle is to put a chair in front of the couch, which I might experiment with next year. But this still sounds too damn good. I initially had them out 6 ft from the wall and moved it back a feet. I think I’m going to experiment within that range as that is the maximum speaker wire length I have to play with. I honed in on the side wall distance using Cardas calculations for a dipole speaker. Yes, I picked up the Pulse last Tuesday and breaking it in (100 hrs recommended) which should be achieved later tonight. Then, I will give it a critical listen over the next week. That said, I’ve listened on an off during the past couple of days as I have guests over the holidays and so far I’ve detected increased volume at the same step, more resolution (more meat on the bones), a bigger airier soundstage, and this has me scratching my head…increased bass performance? I don’t know if that is due to the drivers continuing to break-in or the Pulse (but I suspect the latter). I will share some more thoughts when I’ve spent another week or two with it and taken it through various genres of music. Thanks for your feedback and Happy New Year! |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Sean on 01/01/23 at 00:00:54 I’ve been following the threads on the open baffle speakers. Never owned a pair, but I am curious about them. I have a wood shop in the garage and could easily make a set of baffles, not worried about that. What I’m real curious about though is how much space they seem to need. Kamran has his at 5’ from the back wall. That would leave me 8’ to my back wall and set the speakers right in the middle of room. No beuno. I guess I’m wondering if there is a general rule of thumb in regards to room size and speaker size. Perhaps a 10 or 12” is better for my room? With the compromise being losing low end? Anyhow, it’s fun seeing you guys trying these out and even if I never go that route, I’m learning stuff. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Palomino on 01/01/23 at 00:28:52 My room is 16’ deep. OBs are 3-4 feet from the wall and my listening position is 7’ from the drivers. Works well. I have a lot of diffusers though. I haven’t been able to identify where my speakers are for years. Somehow when I bought my first Decware amp they disappeared. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by GroovySauce on 01/05/23 at 00:03:52 Kamran, I’m encouraging you to try a chair. Moving from far field to near field does sounds very different. You will want to play with toe in as you move too. If you do like the new listening position, adding moving a chair isn’t much more :) Glad you are enjoying the Pulse! My ZENith MK3 took a month or so to settle in. Sean, monkey coffins or open baffles they sound better away from the walls. Placement is room specific and is for most people decided by a lot of compromises. 95% of setups 10-12” from the front wall will actually give you a bass boost and loose sound stage. Room modes / treatment will dictate if you hear more or less bass based on listening position. Palomino brings up something that until you experience it, it’s hard to really get. Decware amps do make speakers disappear. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by will on 01/05/23 at 02:00:20 Since I got into Decware with an early version of an SE34, later to morph into a Racheal, I also got a nice pair of Bob's MG944s, and never heard the speakers since. HR-1s also... no association between the sounds of players and speakers. In my room, though not a traditional 3 point setup and toe, the soundstage is really good, deep, layered, and wide. No doubt soundstage was a consideration in the speaker designs, but here, both of these two creations of Zygi's are overall relatively equal at sound stage. What makes the soundstage better seems to be synergistic refinement of all the gear, from power and cables right through to the speaker placement and toe and room. If the sound is not too forceful for this lively room, and there is better spectral balance and less smearing/more complete space and resolution, the stage is better. And since everything effects these things, everything matters. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 01/05/23 at 02:47:45 GroovySauce: It’s interesting that you encouraged the use of the chair. I’ve been thinking about testing the very thing. I can easily bring a folding chair downstairs to complete the equilateral triangle and see what gives. Will let you know…though I really love my couch and ottoman setup. Which brings me to update with another report on the sonics. The Pulse is seriously hampering my ability to distinguish the performance of the streamer from the capability of the Fast 15 in Randy’s beautiful baffle, but what I can report is that it’s sounding heavenly. The most interesting change in the past couple of days is bass. It was getting better and better and with the Pulse, it took another considerable jump. I stopped keeping a track of the number of hours I have on the driver, but I bet it’s close to 600 (if not more). With every passing day, the urge to experiment with the W15 bass driver is waning. In my 13 x 17 room (with 7 inch ceiling), these drivers are kicking ass in all departments. And this is with a 5 wpc 6V6 power tube on my Had amp. That doesn’t mean I don’t want to tinker with a bass driver someday, but I have absolutely no urgency to do so. I also find it telling that Steve doesn’t use a bass driver in his listening room either. I finally showed off the drivers to some friends (non-audiophiles) who have been following my journey and who were bigs fans of my Klipsch towers and they were blown away. One person said: “This was insane” And another said: “Before I felt the sound coming from the tower speakers like a wall of sound hitting my face and now, I can’t tell if the new OB speakers are even playing and sound is more room filling.” In other words, he was talking about the soundstage and how bigger and precise it is. It was good to get an unbiased validation that this move to OB has been a success. No doubt, the addition of the Holo Spring 3 KTE and Pulse are lending to this. Tom mentioned the disappearing act in his post as well and that has to be the #1 favorite thing about these speakers. I would even say that it’s becoming increasingly difficult to localize them, which is one of the reasons I don’t want to mess with anything right now. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 01/06/23 at 05:47:58 I feel like life has been a never ending series of break-in since November. First the DAC, then the Fast 15s and now the streaming transport. I’ve purposely waited to re-listen to Cowboy Junkies Trinity Sessions until this cycle was done—so roughly a 2.5 month gap. Finished the album around 7 pm and jazzed to report that this was the best listening session to date. Much more sense of the room (the Church), wider soundstage, great imaging and tonally rich. I was also able to pick up some disturbances the ambisonic mic was catching (shuffling perhaps of either the musicians or their gear?), which was never apparent before but makes sense for a pseudo live act more or less done in one setting. Two tracks sounded particularly wonderful in this session: Postcard Blues—the thing that totally blew me away (as hilarious as it sounds) was the foot tapping. I was sitting in darkness with my eyes closed and when the foot tapping started, it gave me such a startle as if (to use a cliche) it was coming from my listening room. Spooky good. Walking After Midnight: Literally everything was spectacular about this track— the harmonica, the vocals, the accordion, and the guitar. Couldn’t get enough. Every song on this album gives you a sense of space and this track provides it in spades. Probably my favorite. Went on a wild goose chase googling this album and besides other sites, found a 5 year old Decware thread where this and other songs were discussed. I plan to check them all. Did experiment with a few and the one that just astounded me was ‘Calypso Minor’ by Abdullah Ibrahim—the piano attack in that track…my God! Added to my instrumental playlist and a mental note to listen to the entire album. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Palomino on 01/06/23 at 12:18:56 Those are certainly some oldies but goodies that I haven't listened to since a number of changes. Thanks for the reminder and glad you are enjoying your system. I intend to play them next listening session. Great for spatial cues. Some other oldies but goodies I use to test my system: Fleetwood Mac - Gold Dust Woman. I listen for separation in the voices, particularly Christine McVie's in the first chorus. Compare to the second chorus (where her voice is more distinct). If her voice is too merged together with the other voices in the first chorus, I keep tweaking. Shelby Lynne - Just a Little Lovin' - this was a Paul McGowan recommendation. Listen for the faint echo just before the verse that starts with "this old world". I think he noted that this was caused by tape bleed through in the mastering process. I've made tweaks to my system where this was less audible so I changed things back or kept tweaking. Some people also listen to the cymbals at the beginning of the song as a realistic reproduction/decay test. Boz Scaggs - Here's to you. Another Paul McGowan suggested track. This is one of my low bass tests. Right before he begins singing, a low 20hz bass tone is played. If your system can reproduce it, you hear it, if not, a hole appears in the song. There are probably others, but those are the ones that come to mind. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 01/06/23 at 18:35:50 Some will scoff at this, but I have actually brought in some '80s soft pop classics into my judgemental practices. Some old forgotten hits that have so much incredible depth and clarity. Time to laugh, not my normal relaxation feel good fare, But very demanding recordings and quite amazing when reproduced well as a test base ... Pablo Cruise, Toto, Genn Frey, Diana Ross, Fifth Dimension, Joni Mitchell, Boston, Dan Fogelberg, Chicago, Gino Vanelli, Earth Wind And Fire and, sit down and get ready for it ... Michael Jackson. I'm going to second some Boz Scaggs efforts. The list could go on, but pick one up that you don't hate and keep your mind open for a spin or two. So much depth and orchestration on many of these old tracks and they often sound fine coming from a two inch speaker via bluetooth, but to sit and discover what was happening in the studio at the time can be a whole new adventure. Even though I did not care about much of this music when it was fresh, many old Top 40 hits from the '70s and '80s deserve an additional exploration, if you're up for it. Grain of salt, YMMV, JMHO and all that, but you might give some of these a second try. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Palomino on 01/06/23 at 21:50:22 Michael Jackson was a staple at our CDApS get togethers. From the 60s, I like Blood Sweat and Tears. Well recorded. And Emerson Lake and Palmer - Lucky Man. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 01/08/23 at 02:40:34 Tom thanks for the suggestions. I think you meant to say “Thanks to You” vs. “Here’s to You”. I actually listened to this track the first time at Decware and liked it and added played it in my own rig after I got back. What I can tell you is that it sounds much better with the Fast 15s and new DAC/Streamer combo. I don’t hear the 20Hz tone since the 15s have a steep roll off at 40Hz. That said I tried listening to the segment multiple times yesterday and on my final try, I did detect something was going on before Boz starts singing, but it was barely audible. Didn’t take away from enjoying the track though. Blackbess—Thanks for your suggestions too. I grew up as MJ fan so it was good to revisit yesterday and as suspected, it’s the best I’ve heard MJ sound. One thing was very interesting though. There are two Thriller albums on Qobuz. The regular high-res Thriller sounded frankly like shit. However, the 25th anniversary Super Deluxe version was just sublime! |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Palomino on 01/09/23 at 14:46:19 Yeah Kamran, thanks to you. Sorry I listened to all CD rips this weekend thanks to you (ha, ha) and enjoyed the music very much. Honestly, I think streaming loses something. Anyway, if I get around to it, I'll post the playlist. Lonely Raven had me play many of those songs at Decfest this year as several are his reference tracks, like Yellowbrick Road. He, Bad Wolf and/or Progrobb used to get together a couple times of year and listen to music/swap out geat etc. We jokingly called it the Chicago Decware Appreciation Society or CDApS. I could really use some input on my system right now and these get togethers were a great (and sometimes painful) way to see what others think of your rig. I've also heard some great DACs, amps and speakers in my room. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 01/14/23 at 23:52:43  Quote:
Haha Quote:
Please do share! So I’ve been experimenting with nearfield listening for the past week as advised by GrroovySauce. I had the kids help me create an equilateral triangle and luckily I found a nice cushioned chair (the foldable chairs were a non-starter for my behind). I will try and share some pictures. Anyways, the first couple of days, I felt the jury was still out whether nearfield was a game changer necessarily, but when I switched my 6V6 and 5Y3 rectifier back to my Gold Lion KT77 and Sophia Electric Aqua 274b combo—-my God! The soundstage exploded in all directions, substantially more holographic, vocals more in the room, the decay improved, bass improved, dynamics improved, tonality of instruments improved, and heard micro details in tracks that I missed before. The impact of the drum hits is just sublime. I hate fact that I can’t pinpoint the source of the changes, 1) Is it the tubes? 2) Is it the new nearfield listening position 3) is it the new DAC and especially streaming transport breaking in. That’s what you get by trying to do too many things at once… During the past couple of days, I went through Sarah Bareilles’ Live album, and felt more there then the previous listening sessions. In fact, at one stage, when she was teasing the audience, I burst out laughing. Literally everything I’ve played during the past 3 days (including a Jeff Beck playlist on Qobuz) has sounded sublime. Earlier today, I was playing the Greatest Hits of Queen and it was by far, the best that album has ever sounded in my rig. It has impact, it has soundstage, and imaging so spooky that my heart skipped a beat when I had my eyes closed and heard a voice at the far right of the room, thinking someone was in the room….but no, it was part of the track. Suffice to say, having a lot of fun…. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Lon on 01/15/23 at 00:18:28 In my opinion it may be the Aqua 274B making the sound stage improvements--my sound stage presentation certainly improves when I put them in the Monoblocks. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 01/15/23 at 02:05:53 Lon, I don’t disagree. Love that rectifier. That said, forgot to add bullet 4 for completeness: 4) The Fast 15s still breaking in. Conservatively—600 hrs to date. Too many variables to account for but at the end of the day, what matters most is that it’s all gelling together quite nicely. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Lon on 01/15/23 at 02:54:40 Admittedly it may be several factors. I'm so glad you hit a new plateau, and you could be still moving towards improving sound. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 01/15/23 at 04:28:25 Kamran, that triangle looks to be fairly close field to me. I'll bet it can sound amazing! To me, I don't care where the speakers end up as long as they do not give themselves away. I have blue tape all over my floor right now as well, with notes scribbled on half of the marks, not all positive. It really looks like your room is coming together nicely! Well done! I notice some Klipsch gear. Are those subwoofers Klipsch efforts as well? |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 01/15/23 at 05:17:14 Thanks Sane Old DD! I was recently encouraged to try nearfield listening so trying that out for the first time with good results. About 6 ft 4 inches on all sides and yes, the speakers dissapear. The subs are a pair of SVS PB 2000 Pro’s, exclusively used for HT. Not really optimal for 2 channel. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Mannytheseacow on 01/15/23 at 16:34:49 Kamran, sometimes when tinkering with speaker placement I’ll pull them forward to about 2 ft. in front of the listening position and pointed at the back wall, keeping them about 11 ft. apart. It takes the disappearing act to a whole new level. I imagine you’re hearing mostly the back of the speaker at this point with little difference between the back and the reflections. Personal room space and treatment probably have a lot to do with the success of this placement. I would probably leave them in this setup all the time if it wasn’t such an intrusive placement in the room. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Tooppy on 01/15/23 at 20:27:08 Mine are six feets away from me, that shocked a pair of friends who were not used to such a close listening, for me it is ideal and is mandatory when you play at night and have very low level. I smiled a day when I saw Steve Guttenberg saying that the best listenings sessions were the nearer to the speakers, it has always been obvious to me. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Geno on 01/15/23 at 21:51:45 Hi Manny. 2’ in front of listening position & 11’ apart? That is very interesting. What toe in are you using with that setup? Thanks, Geno |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Mannytheseacow on 01/15/23 at 23:42:53 Hey, Geno- zero toe-in, just firing straight against the back wall. A little context, I was experimenting one day and had no toe-in, starting at the front wall and just kept moving the speakers closer and closer to me while keeping them the same distance apart. All of a sudden everything just clicked. The speakers were practically on either side of me, but pointed straight back. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 01/16/23 at 02:55:41 Mannytheseacow—that’s some radical placement. Now that I am more comfortable with nearfield listening, I may try it out one of these days. For now things are sounding so great that I don’t want to touch a thing (mental note for myself to put a blue tape at the base of the baffles and peel off the equilateral triangle tape cuts outs—I don’t want to test my significant others patience!). Today, I discovered Chantal Chamberland—listened to her last released album “Temptation” which are basically covers of famous songs. My hands down favorite was (aptly named) ‘I put a spell on you’. The guitar, stage right was literally on top of my head, as if there were speakers in the ceiling (well there are actually speakers in the ceiling but for HT). The immersion was next level. That said, my favorite track of the day was Phil Collin’s “In the Air Tonight”. I’ve played this favorite of mine countless times, waiting for the drums at the end but this time it was different in some meaningful ways. The whole time leading up to the drums, I felt the song emotionally as it unwinded and unwinded, with every second the tension increasing, increasing until the magic happened. And let me tell you….those drums sounded absolutely magnificent. The best I’ve ever heard. The reverb technique on the whole track and especially the drums, make it sound like it was a live song on a huge Live Aid type of setting, yet it was done in a studio. The impact and the scale left me speechless. This was always Phil’s signature song and now I know why…. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 01/18/23 at 03:18:50 Two interesting updates (well, at least one). My wife finally commented on the equilateral tape cut outs in the listening room and asked me when I was planning to peel them off as it [quote] “looks like you’re conducting a satanic ritual in the basement” [/unquote] Still laughing at that one…. To share some bad news, I think my beloved Gold Lion KT 77s have become noisy and microphonic. I cleaned all the preamp and amp tubes, switched sides and I still hear sputtering noises (mostly from one channel), turned off the tube stage on my Freya +preamp and then completely shut it down (though I should have turned off the amp first if I recall gear turnoff etiquette). I can still hear the sputtering noise, so it ain’t the preamp tubes. Also, each time I press a button on the preamp (mute or tube stage), I hear a click from the speakers-which is leading me to believe it has also turned microphonic. Today, I took the K77’s out and replaced it with Psvane KT88s and no sputter and no microphony. It’s a shame really. I have just under 500 hrs on the pair. I wrote to good ol uncle Kev (or his team rather) to investigate whether they will be kind enough to send me replacement tubes. In the grand scheme of things, I can barely detect the noise when music is playing so all is not lost necessarily but it should be lasting much more (10x more?) at least before developing such problems. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Steve Deckert on 01/18/23 at 04:17:08 I think just to mess with the wife, you need at least one Egyptian hieroglyph made from the blue tape on the floor. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 01/18/23 at 05:23:17 Haha—I see myself googling Egyptian hieroglyphs in the near future! |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by HockessinKid on 01/18/23 at 12:44:44 Best be careful or your wife may tape you to the floor.😂 HK |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Tooppy on 01/18/23 at 13:16:04 I wouldn't dare to even think of "tape on the floor", I would be thrown over board within minutes ! [smiley=10.gif] No, I use the carpet drawning patterns .....a lot safer ! [smiley=laugh.gif] |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Steve Deckert on 01/18/23 at 18:34:08 Coming soon:   |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by 4krow on 01/18/23 at 19:37:11 Steve, That took a bit back upon first glance. Before I focused I thought it was a crossover meant to go on the back of a speaker. Then I realized it wasn't made for that. So now, I assume this is a 'corrective device' for some known speaker situation? |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 01/18/23 at 19:47:53 Quote:
Haha Quote:
Whoa! Is that the network (aka notch filter) you developed for the Fast 15? If so, that is a great option to purchase pre-made so it can be plug and play though I wonder for amps that have binding posts on the back, how that would fit. It’s seems easier for Decware amps given the binding posts are on top of the chassis. Also, assuming one would need two pairs of single ended male to female adapters to connect the two binding posts. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Tooppy on 01/18/23 at 20:54:05 Could it be made for the speaker side instead of the amp side ? I won't have the space on shelve for this. OK I not really concerned because I guess this is for the Fast 15, but some others may have the same problem. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Steve Deckert on 01/19/23 at 00:08:17 Yes, this is the network for the Fast-15. It was designed to go at the amplifier end rather than the speaker end although it works both ways. The difference I heard using ZFOCUS wire was better transparency with the filter placed at the amplifier. I liked the idea of having less amplitude at those frequencies in the speaker wire vs. putting them through the wire and then filtering it off just before the speaker. That said you could treat it like any other crossover and solder two wires to it and connect them to your drivers. It's fun to try it both places and see if you can hear a difference. I'll have them available in a few weeks time. Price will be $90 for a pair. They will be made in mirror images to work with Decware amps, but for non-decware amps they can be made both the same. Steve |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 01/19/23 at 02:39:08 Steve that sounds like a fair price. I might just wait for my Decware amp before pulling the trigger on the network so I don’t have to order twice. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by GroovySauce on 01/19/23 at 17:03:22 Kamran, Are you exactly equilateral? I find that having the listening position slightly further than the distance between the speaker center gives the best sound. I went through a few months of seasoning a few components at the same time. It does get difficult to distinguish what is what. As long as you are heading in the direction you want to go all is well. Adding to that is to understand how the changes change the sound and lock that away for the future. If there is a small change you want to make to the sound recall how different things changed the sound and make changes based on that—this is really applicable to tubes. DD, I say “audiophile” records are generally overrated. Most of the music I listen to isn’t up to “audiophile” standards. That said, as your system gets more resolving the depth of some of these “lesser” recordings is incredibly deep! I encourage everyone to get a laser measure and a laser level. I use mine all the time. For audio and nonaudio-related things. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by ArtMan on 01/19/23 at 17:45:24 I've been burning in my Fast15 speakers and already know that I cannot live long term with the boosted highs. Being able to purchase the network from Decware will be very welcomed in my system. Steve, I am very glad you are thinking ahead and providing a very needed niche product. Thank you. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 01/19/23 at 18:39:02 Hey, Groovy, I don't think you meant that comment for me, but if I've mislead someone somewhere along the way, I apologize. I don't own much in the way of "audiophile" media. I do have a handful of downloaded digital tracks that were presented as similar, but they are not the ones I use to judge my system performance. I also have bought a double CD of "sampler pack" hi res recordings. Not sure how that works since they are just CDs. I'm not sure I even played it through once. It's OK, but I don't really listen for that set of reasons. I mostly just want to hear good music sound better. I do run an old rusty computer (runnning XP with everything other than sound turned off and never allowed to even sniff the internet) set up as a music server in my rig. It has hard drives full of hi-res live tape conversions from my glory days that I treasure and quite a few needle drops saved in hi res from my own LP collection. Nothing really "audiophile" but I get by just fine. ... and I agree with your comment. Most of that is overhyped. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 01/20/23 at 14:17:00 GroovySauce—I was at exactly equilateral. Based on your advice, I’ve moved back one feet and will continue to test. Also, based on your advice, I bought a Bosch Laser measure and having a lot of fun with it! |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Steve Deckert on 01/24/23 at 04:02:39  I have been doing some comparisons between the Fast 15 with the above network vs. the F15 for the past week now since the Fast 15's are finally fully broken in. I haven't listened the F15 for the entire time since getting the Fast 15 because I wanted to see what happened when I went back listening to the F15's again. From this new perspective of coming off the Fast 15 with network, the F15's for the first time sounded a touch dry by comparison. I didn't see that coming. Anyway the Fast 15's in the large baffles on Sarah is a favorite, especially if you want to listen a couple dB louder than normal. : ) |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Steve Deckert on 01/25/23 at 03:49:48 https://youtu.be/6Lv_x70eb_8 Video demo |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 01/25/23 at 23:48:55 Thanks Steve—this was really useful to educate myself to the exact orientation of the speaker inputs on each channel. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Steve Deckert on 01/27/23 at 02:40:03 Quote:
My guess is that you might regret waiting so long. For anyone on this tread that want's to try a pair, I will wave the restock fee and shipping is minor due to the small size. Steve https://www.decwareproducts.com/product-page/fast-15-network |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 01/27/23 at 03:24:37 Oh, this went up earlier than I expected! I actually just looked at the binding posts on the Dennis Had amp quickly and the way it is laid out on the back, there is going to be a spacing issue as the single ended inputs are sandwiched between both pairs of binding posts. I don’t think I will be able to properly insert the network. That said, I might still buy it and if I can’t use it on the current amp, I know that I’ll be set for Sarah. But, let me get through the dedicated line install project first and set a baseline. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 01/27/23 at 07:14:07 Just out of curiosity, is there still a bypass switch included on the Network scheme? Or was that just for test purposes in order to get the component values dialed in? Not clear in the images posted. I don't own the Fast15s yet, but the possibility is still favored even though I really like my original F15s so far. That extra 2/3 octave of low end extension is highly compelling. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by JBzen on 01/27/23 at 10:05:02 DD, Why would there be a need for a bypass switch in Steve's design? The photos show different amps with the network. I believe that switch is use for impedance matching on the one with a switch. John |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 01/27/23 at 14:39:58 JBz, think about it for a moment. Your question is a derivation from the assumption that what ever my (not yet acquired, but soon - later production, possibly) new drivers measure, the ones Steve has acquired are identical in every meaningful way to the ones I will acquire in the future. I have never seen this happen consistently with mechanical functions. But, you're right. I do not believe that there is a bypass switch included, as per his published schematic. Thanks for helping me to define my reasoning. Who knows. At these frequencies, someone might want to add a tiny bypass cap. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by JEllis25 on 02/02/23 at 18:43:15 Hi Steve, Is the network designed for certain baffle designs only or will it work with all things Fast-15. Thank you, -John |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 02/04/23 at 00:43:31 Love the sunlight hitting the baffle at an angle.  instagram downloader firefox |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Rivieraranch on 02/04/23 at 01:11:07 Baffle porn. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Geno on 02/04/23 at 02:29:35 Nice Kamran! Have you experimented any with tilting the speaker back? It can make a difference. When I still had my Randy baffles, I preferred mine with a tilt. Steve is the one that made the idea known. Best, Geno |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 02/04/23 at 03:43:17 Thanks Geno and what a coincidence. I’ve been thinking about doing the same, and was meaning to pick your brain. Do you use something like an Auralex isolation pad under the OB base? If so, how thick is it—so I can determine how much tilt is necessary? I do wonder how that impacts the bass response decoupling it from the floor, but it’s worth checking out. Would love more insight and or pictures you can share on this. I am sure it will be helpful to other members as well. One of the reasons I had Auralex or something similar in mind, is because I do want to de-couple my SVS subs and was wondering while I’m at it, why not try a similar solution for the baffles. This is what I was looking at potentially: https://www.crutchfield.com/S-pJiu7VUNX4V/p_927MOPADXL/Auralex-MoPAD-XL.html?XVINQ=D74&XVVer=8QH&awcr=632700309784&awdv=c&awnw=g&awug=9004029&awkw=dsa-825528684897&awmt=&awat=&gclid=CjwKCAiA_vKeBhAdEiwAFb_nrf0GK2XrIw7rRzFjsCMAbABlE1yXPwfsvvSvsV15z2O4BNI7y9X-4hoCdbAQAvD_BwE |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Geno on 02/04/23 at 04:04:57 Kamran, Those should work well! I like that they come with wedges. That way you can see what angle you like best. And decoupled at the same time. My method was much more crude, and did nothing as far as decoupling. I just had a 2” square block across the front edge. You can experiment to see what you like best, but you may Very well end up with them back flat on the ground. It comes down to personal preference. Best, Geno |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Tony on 02/04/23 at 04:07:24 An easy way to experiment with speaker tilt is to use two door stops on each side of speaker. I did this with my OB for awhile. Once you find a preference, something more permanent can be designed. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 02/04/23 at 04:38:44 Thanks Geno and Tony—-I might play around with this in the near future. The doorstop idea is an easy and cheap way to gauge whether this will be preferable in my rig before I commit to more aesthetically pleasing solutions. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Steve Deckert on 02/04/23 at 21:32:21 Quote:
It is simply a correction device for the Fast-15, regardless of enclosure or baffle design. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Steve Deckert on 02/04/23 at 21:38:30 Regarding the switch, if you look at the last picture I posted, the unit is easily bypassed by plugging the positive speaker cable into the amplifier binding post instead of the circuit board. Also, since the circuit board simply does nothing with the negative, you have the option of plugging your cables into the negative on the board or the negative on the amplifier. I choose the amplifier to remove more weight and strain from the board. Obviously this isn't going to fit very many non-decware amplifiers despite the standard spacing, so for those users it is recommended to solder some wires to the input side that can then connect to your amplifier. Another trick is to simply install a pair of binding posts crimped down on the board at which point the board has binding posts on both ends. Also in this instance as long as the polarity is observed it does not matter which end of the board is the input. That makes it real easy to put it at the loudspeaker if that works better for you. -Steve |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 02/05/23 at 04:12:10 Thank you, Steve. That was my obvious work around, but it took me a few minutes. Not sure why. Your design seems perfect. I will get these drivers in my own hands in the coming weeks. An order for your nicely made networks will follow. I trust I will need them as you do. Thanks for all you have done! |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by JEllis25 on 02/08/23 at 14:51:01 Steve, Is that still a 36ohm resistor as originally design or is the 30 or 40ohm? |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 02/09/23 at 04:15:04 Had to think which thread to post this update since it’s also tied to the dedicated circuit but figured I’d stick it here given that it’s Fast 15s that have blossomed with the dedicated line. Yesterday, I convinced my teenager to sit in the sweet spot and I played 3 tracks for him: 1) Chantal Chamberland’s cover of ‘I Put a Spell on You”—to showcase midrange tonality, imaging, and 3D/Immersion. Everything is gorgeous about this track, but if I had to pick one thing, it would be the guitar (stage right) extending well beyond the listening position. I confirmed this by sitting two ft. behind him. 2) Joe Bonamassa’s ‘High Water Everywhere (Live)—to showcase the width of the soundstage—those drums on each side seem to extend the boundaries of my room. 3) ‘Make us Stronger’ by Ghost Rider—to showcase chest pounding, unbelievable bass without subs. Anyone who says these full-range drivers can’t produce bass, you need to come to my rig. After the sampling was done, he just looked stupefied and asked ‘what did you do?” So, I explained that this change was a result of the dedicated lines I had just installed for my Hifi gear and it was akin to getting a new component. He seemed super impressed, which is a rare emotion for teenagers — to be impressed by anything their parents do. His parting comment was “and my friends think airplaying spotify songs on our home theater was dope….” I’ll take that as a big win. Speaking of big wins, I played a couple of tracks from Sara Bareilles’ live Brave Enough album earlier today and was rewarded with increased dynamics—her vocal range is just astounding and she was ever more so in the room, or I had VIP seats at that concert (take your pick). Her piano, stage left, had more authority and also extended further in to the room. Thankfully, no one was in the room, because I couldn’t wipe that stupid grin off my face. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Paul2 on 06/26/23 at 18:14:16 This thread has been languishing for about six months now. After reading Steve, Randy, Kamran and others comments on the Fast 15’s I bought a pair. Mounted them in a pair of sand filled, dual 15 open baffles that I had from years past. Now we are well over one thousand hours on ‘em. Here we have a very simple system, Mac Mini, Teac DAC and a Chi-Fi 300B amp. Exclusively streaming the music. In this 14’ by 28’ well treated room, we have never had music sound better! Also, there are a pair of custom made 15” woofers powered by a plate amplifier. Thanks to everyone for convincing me that this would be a good speaker to buy. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Tooppy on 06/26/23 at 20:53:03 Paul I think these drivers have not yet find their ideal "support", would it be box or else.Mine work very well in their box but I guess they could sound better in some others well calculated, well studied baffle ! |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Paul2 on 06/27/23 at 21:31:34 My guess is that folks are sitting on the edge of their seats for the new platinum 15's . |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 06/28/23 at 03:05:09 Paul, Good to hear from you! You beat me to it. I’ve been thinking of adding to this thread for a while now, but keep getting distracted. I also have (conservatively speaking) 800 hrs on the drivers and I can’t shake the feeling that some of the majesty I’m hearing is not just the component upgrades but the drivers continuing to mature/bloom. I am with ya…so so happy with these drivers. Music has never sounded better. Every night is a treat. That said, I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t intrigued about the PT 15s. So far, the reports of the PT 10’s have been really promising so that bodes well. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by hguzel on 08/30/23 at 05:34:47 Hi to everyone, I am new to this forum and would really like to a big thanks to you for such valuable inputs in each topic, I really enjoy reading the posts and find very useful for me. I have recently ordered a pair of Lii fast 15 and impatiently waiting for the delivery by the weekend to hook them up to Fisher 800C tube receiver. That might be odd question and already searched but did not find any relevant topic in the forum, I wonder if I can use the open baffle speakers with speaker stands? Through the years I have changed a lot of loud speakers and used several stands too. I have now a nice pair of angled stands and want to know if anyone has tried with OB speakers with similar stands, I mean if there is any downside to sound quality or makes any good improvement? Thanks in advance. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Aaron on 08/30/23 at 13:47:11 That’s the stand I’ve mentioned, 17” height. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Aaron on 08/30/23 at 14:01:40 This is my existing set up, everything is backed to the wall and will make a rearrangement once I receive the drivers and leave some distance with wall. I used to locate my speakers to my ear level when I am sitting in the room so I am keen to use the stands. But if the soundstage is that good as everyone advised I won’t need stands. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by HockessinKid on 08/30/23 at 15:50:50 FWIW, I think you'd be better off dropping those baffles to floor level. You will lose a lot of bass response on the stands. Try to get at least 2' out from the rear wall so the furniture in between doesn't reek havoc on your soundstage. You can always tilt the front end of the baffles up 2" or so. This arrangement will give you a much smoother frequency response. HK |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Tooppy on 08/30/23 at 16:25:41 These baffles look to me like "no baffle" at all. I have been playing for months with the F15 alone directly on the floor while I was thinking of what kind of baffle I would use. I can tell you'll miss the beauty of these drivers. If you want OBs, do as Steve has done, a rather big piece of wood and plan to place them far away from your walls when you listen. From your pictures, I am not sure you have the space for it. You know, big drivers need big space. The good thing with these drivers is you can place them very very near the listening position and you'll get it all at low level. - Have you ever seen the JBL Paragon ? ...The top of the line for JBL.... How far the drivers are from one another....2m at the most....this means if you respect the usual triangle, the listening position is also at around that same distance from the baffles, which is very close. That is exactly how I listen at them after moving them around for months (mine aren't OBs), then I push them back against the walls after listening. I hope this will save you time in you setting. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Aaron on 08/30/23 at 17:13:45 Thanks for your advises HockessinKid. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Aaron on 08/30/23 at 17:23:41 Thanks Tooppy for your reply, much appreciated. Size of my baffles not much different than the ones we see in this topic in previous pages and decware web site, so I believe mines seemed you smaller in the pictures. I would love to get bigger baffles and may have them whenever I move to a bigger place but my current music room not very big to accommodate bigger baffles at the moment. I totally agree with the distance between the speakers should be large enough and I can move them up to 10 to 15 ft if required, have enough length cables to chase them. Based on both feedbacks I will remove the stands and play around the room to locate the baffles to get best result. Thank you. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Bloozestringer on 10/10/23 at 18:41:19 Stupid question, but what size screws should I be looking at to mount the F15's? Temporarily going to put them in a 3/4" birch baffle the size of Randy's to see how they sound. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 10/11/23 at 02:28:40 It's not a stupid question and there are a number of ways to mount drivers to a baffle. Smaller drivers you can get away with using small No. 8 or No. 10 by one inch long or so wood screws directly into the wood. Metric equivalents are fine. 15s are heavier drivers and I believe need a bit more support. Some might disagree, but it kind of depends upon how thick your baffle is. 3/4 inch material is not much to grab for a wood screw. Thicker baffle and wood screws No. 10 size would be fine. I prefer to use T-nuts for larger drivers or for drivers that I might switch out and exchange from time to time. Or T-nuts are great if you might need to add damping material or perfect the tuning through the driver cut out and have to remove the driver a few times. I usually add a drop of super glue to the T-nut part when I install those. Don't get any glue on the threads!! Let it dry completely to be sure. Only takes a minute or two. Even with the super glue, I like to come in from the back side of the baffle and add a small wood screw to the back of the T-nut to make sure it can never come out, unless you want it to. I use 10-32 or 3/16 fine thread size most of the time and just long enough to poke through the baffle and T-nut. I would avoid slot head screws. Phillips are fine. I prefer Allen head or Torx head. Much less chance of your tool slipping out of the drive slot and damaging an expensive speaker component. I have a triple thick layer of plywood, MDF and plywood baffle and my F15s are mounted with 1/4 20 T-nuts, installed the way I suggested using 2&1/2 inch Allen head bolts. Wood screws might be fine for my thicker baffle, but I tend to over build for stout on things that are going to vibrate. If you've never used T-nuts here's a pic. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Bloozestringer on 10/11/23 at 03:03:31 Thanks. I’ve used T-nuts but much prefer Hurricane nuts as they won’t damage or split wood like the prongs of T-nuts can. These are just temporary baffles to see if I even like the F15’s. I’m not going to put any more than that into them at this point. If I do like them then I’ll be purchasing some magnum baffles from Randy, but I don’t want to drop nearly $800 on baffles if the F15’s don’t work for me. Thus the temporary ones sized and shaped just like Caintucks, just a hair thinner. I figure a #10 wood screw might work without damaging the gasket, which is what I’m really concerned about. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 10/11/23 at 03:51:58 Funny! I've had way more tear outs with Hurricane nuts than with T-nuts. But then as I install mine, nothing can tear out. My baffles are mock-ups as well, but I had some extra panels sitting around destined for shelving. I eventually want some decent looking hardwood to ramp things up a bit. It sounds like you know plenty about what to do, already. Give them a try! If yours are the Fast 15s, it might be different from my F15 experience. Several here have those newer version drivers. And some are pleased with them. I do want to offer one word of advice as a person who almost gave up on his F15s early on. Let them break in for a while before you judge them too harshly. It took over 100 Hrs for mine to loosen up enough to reach the published Fs spec. They were sounding pretty good after only half that time, but still had nothing below about 100Hz. Give them time. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Bloozestringer on 10/11/23 at 04:12:04 Great thing is I got these off the forum and they supposedly have nearly 500 hours on them already! I have them on the floor leaned against my other speaker’s stands which are about 6-7 feet apart and 5’ from my chair (very nearfield). The soundstage even then is HUGE and doesn’t even sound like it’s coming from down low. Zero bass of course, but I’m thinking even in the temp baffles they’ll sound great. Like I said if they do then I’m ordering real baffles (have to go with Randy’s as my room is so small) and then getting on the list for a new amp (probably the Rachael). I don’t want to jump the gun on the amp until I have suitable speakers. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 10/11/23 at 04:45:20 Great catch! My room is small, too and I have scaled down Steve's Big Betsy baffles. Mine are 36" high. I do miss that bottom octave sometimes, though. 90% of the time, I don't, but I play all kinds of music. I bought a pair of the Lii Audio W15s to augment when I need to. I put my woofers in a Linkwitz style H baffle. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Gilf on 10/12/23 at 23:33:24 Hey Bloozestringer I just used plain old #6 all purpose Phillips wood screws in my f15 baffles and they’ve been fine for several years now. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by will on 10/13/23 at 02:32:46 Hey DD, thinking about missing the lower bits, I thought I remembered that you have F 15‘s, not Fast 15s like the thread title. Just hoping for clarification since the Fast 15s are supposed to go down to 30 or so. Am I remembering correctly that you have F 15s rated to around 50? My room accentuates the very low end, so it’s a quandary for me as to whether to buy Fast 15s with the option of some variation on the Steve’s filter, or F 15s and likely trying to integrate a tweeter… Why I’m asking. :) |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 10/13/23 at 10:04:20 Good morning, Will. I am using the original version F15s for full rangers and I have, just a few months ago, bought a pair of Lii W15s to augment lower frequencies. I kind of tried to stay out of this thread for that very reason; I do not own Fast 15s. But then I saw a newer member's post with a question being mostly ignored for too long. I responded with my take on how to securely put a screw into a board strong enough to resist a powerful vibrating force. I have gone through much of the same internal quandary as you describe. I am curious about the Fast 15 product, but I am so pleased with the F15s I hesitate to stir it all up again. I also note that these F15s are glass smooth in the mids. No external network thingy needed, at least not in my small room. I do not want to lose that smoothness. For the time being I will continue to straddle the impasse. Now that tweeter question has only surfaced to my little blazing mental corona a few times. I built some very interesting tweeter assemblies back when I was still using the Visaton B200s, boosted by two 15s per side. I got some cloth dome Visaton tweeters (20 of them got a good price) and made a hexagon with six in series aligned circumferentially, all wired in series with one on top facing upward in parallel to the other six. I also crisscross/back and forth wired them so that the 90 degree phase shift between voice coils in series alternated in position around the hexagon. I had it arranged so most of the response was directed upward with just a whisper radially generated. I crossed them at about 8kH. It came out to about 6 Ohms total to match the B200s and it actually sounded great. Those ended up in the attic when I "retired" the B200s. Now you have me thinking even more about dragging them back down. I do have six left over. Maybe I should just use one or two and find a set of angles that work. Another internal quandary has been cultivated. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by HockessinKid on 10/13/23 at 11:57:20 FWIW, I too struggled with whether to replace my F15's with the Fast 15 drivers in my OB speakers. I just fell in love with the F15's at Decfest back in 2018. The only shortcoming I had with the sound quality was the limited treble response. I learned that several folks online had replaced the stock binding posts on the F-15 speakers, as they were mostly brass. So I took the plunge and replaced the stock posts with KLEI Naked Harmony pure copper binding posts. The change kept the midrange magic and to my ears extended the treble response quite a bit. Anyway, just my experience with these excellent drivers. These were LiinAudio's original F15's. I believe they made some minor changes a couple years ago to the original design. HK |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 10/13/23 at 12:32:02 Wow, thanks for that tip, HK! I'll have to have another look, but I am pretty sure mine have brass binding posts. In the changes to the original design you mention, do you know what was changed? I bought the pair I have just a little over a year ago, so mine are probably the "new" update, I would assume. I would love to know more about that detail. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by HockessinKid on 10/13/23 at 12:38:27 Same Od DD, Unfortunately I can't recall all of the changes, but do recall that the binding posts remained the same. I think changes were noted in the original Decware F-15 thread. Alternatively you might email Lii Audio. I've found them very responsive to inquiries. Here is a link to the thread on the F-15 modifications I performed: https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1595420877/8#8 HK |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Same Old DD on 10/13/23 at 14:11:36 Thanks for that info, HK. I can do that. I can't tell you how many times I have had to replace binding posts on speakers I was rebuilding. [smiley=peanuts05.gif] |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by will on 10/13/23 at 15:27:51 HK and DD, Thank you both for these great stories of experiments. Especially glad to hear that you were able to bring up the treble HK with KLE posts. I really like KLE stuff for the most part. When I was working a lot on my Torii MKIV, I guess I was about halfway through modifications, so a lot of stuff had been changed by ear to my liking, then mostly repeated improvements in clarity from lack of smearing… more resolution and speed. I had been asking around about binding posts, and a number of people said that Cardas copper with silver plate, and rhodium flash, were really good. So I went for them, and after putting them in my wife was out in the kitchen adjacent to the music room, and said wow I think that was the best change yet. And I agreed. This was most likely able to be heard more easily from all the previous work, but the musical clarity throughout the spectrum seemed better as I recall, everything opening up and more complex, including all the rich harmonic information I so love. My memory anyway from quite a few years ago. So not absolutely trustworthy, but pretty sure it was not mainly a tipped up top. Just to say that I thought it was a really good overall improvement for my sound. So thanks for the tip and reminder HK. I probably would’ve changed the posts on F-15 or Fast-15 anyway, but I wouldn’t have thought of it as a potential tool that might bring the treble into balance with the F-15s. Your tweeter set up sounds pretty wild and cool DD. I can’t say I’m particularly averse to simple crossovers. Seems like done with nice parts, and by sound, they can be pretty good. But yes, if you can get around it all the better. That said I’m really glad for HK‘s reminder of how much connectors can change things. I don’t think I have any stock connectors on my Decware I use. Whether RCA or binding posts, or IECS. At least with my older gear, using relatively state of the art stuff for upgrades, all were notable improvements in resolution, speed, and clarity for me. That it could bring up the treble of the F-15s, sounds like a great first start, and may be all thatI might want too. I’ve just found over years that the higher frequencies are not necessarily “needed,” but they can enhances the realism of the sound for me if done with finesse. That said when I hear the platinum drivers, though the recordings and utube presentation leave things to be desired, to me they sound too sharp and clear. So being able to tune these things is important to me. Also Steve’s reaction to the stock Fast-15s registered for me. And his finally finding the filtered versions “juicy“ sounds intriguing as well. Not quite sure what that means, but guessing wetter and maybe more harmonically rich? Thank you both for these experiences. Nice to have more information in mind as I try to sort though these choices! |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Gilf on 10/13/23 at 21:42:34 Thank you for sharing your experience with the Cardas binding posts, Will. I would like to try them. Would you elaborate on what you replaced, was it the post on your amp, speakers, or both? |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by will on 10/14/23 at 01:05:04 Hey Gilf, I used the Cardas posts on my Torii MKIV, one of the early ones, now pretty old. And Steve is not using the same posts these days, presumably changing because the newer choices sound better to him. So I can't comment on how the Cardas might compare to them. But compared to the old posts, for the level of resolution and refinement I grew to crave with a succession of successful modifications, the change was well worth it for me. How much is context from the progressive mods bringing out the posts qualities, I can't guess. Also, I have a set of KLE Silver binding posts I have been meaning to try in the same position as the Cardas, but I have not taken the time to make that comparison... everything sounding so good, not much incentive. But I look forward to seeing which I like better. I really like KLEs better RCA connectors for ICs. On my speakers, I pretty much bypassed the posts, replacing them with bronze bolts and thumb nuts and making them so the speaker cable ends do not touch the bronze. I did this by using a pair of bronze washers with teflon washers inside them, and wrapping the area of the bolts the spades might touch with teflon tape. Then through a small hole (later sealed) in the crossover plate I ran oversized teflon tubing with 18 gauge UPOCC silver wire that was direct soldered to the interior wires and crossover parts. Outside I made a small coil of the silver wire wrapped loosely around the brass bolt and against the speaker side teflon washer. So screwing down the thumb nut squeezes the spade of the speaker cable against the silver coil that has a teflon washer for backing. A pretty convoluted setup, but once done it worked really well for me... pretty close to no binding posts I think. I have parts and nice boxes to move the crossover parts and connections all outside the vibrations of the speaker cabinet, but have not gotten around to that project either... A main incentive of this besides sonic refinement is that I would make it so I can easily change crossover caps and coils and resisters, making experimenting funner and easier. Hope this helps. Will |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Gilf on 10/14/23 at 03:21:59 Thank you for taking the time for that informative reply, will. I suspected you were referring to your mkiv in your earlier post but wanted to verify that I interpreted that correctly. I agree with your observations with the KLEI RCAs, and I also use their binding posts on one of my amps. I’ve never tried the Cardas products so I can’t compare side by side but would like to give them a try on a different amp. I am struggling to wrap my mind around how it would be a huge improvement without also upgrading the posts on my drivers, although my previous experience with upgrading only the amp’s posts to the KLEIs suggested that a sonic gap was crossed by the upgrade. It really is amazing once a certain level of refinement is reached how every small piece of the system can be a bottleneck or opportunity to shape the voicing of what we hear. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by will on 10/14/23 at 16:36:51 Gilf, I agree with your observation that, especially after a certain level of system/room refinement, it is amazing what one good upgrade can do in the long, long chain of parts and room work. But also, when imagining back to my beginnings of getting more serious with home music, I recall the new excitement of having an awake, "player in the room" sound with my first Decware setup... In this room, with a relatively decent front end, cables, and Decware MG944 speakers and SE34 amp (well before Anniversary modifications were happening) I recall being able to hear every change then too. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by DowdyPrime on 03/12/24 at 22:36:08 Now that some amount of time since people have gotten settled with their Fast 15 drivers, I wonder if anyone has any thoughts on the Fast 15 vs. 'regular' F 15. (I'm about to make the decision). Anyone change their mind after the the long-term? |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by Kamran on 03/13/24 at 04:15:04 DowdyPrime, I don’t have much experience with the F15s outside of Decfest but the Fast 15’s have been an incredible addition to my rig. Almost 1 year and 4 months later, I’m still in awe of how they have scaled with each successive improvement in upstream components, the most significant of which is my Sarah. That said, I can’t get rid of the itch to explore other OB speakers. The two I have on my shortlist are the Caladan by Clayton Shaw and the Pure Audio Project Duet. Maybe, I’ll get to scratch that itch this year. Maybe not. Let’s see—-in the meantime, I am more than satisfied with what the Fast 15s continue to bring to the table. Hope this helps. |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by DowdyPrime on 03/13/24 at 14:11:21 Thanks, Kamran. Indeed, those are the two OB manufacturers I have on my list too, but the DIY angle is also very appealing. I've been wondering why the Fast 15s haven't shown up on OB products (like the Zen Masters series), but I suppose it could be the issue with the additional electronicss ('network') that Steve suggests. Or perhaps the price. Hmmm. But good to know that you are still on board! |
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Title: Re: Lii Audio Fast 15 drivers Post by ArtMan on 03/13/24 at 18:54:05 I have a Caintuck open baffle speaker and upgraded from the F15 to the Fast 15 drivers. I prefer the Fast 15's as it has a deeper low end and a more extended high end. I found it to be a better balanced speaker than the original. There is one qualification to this. The highs of the Fast 15's are elevated, with a peak around 6 kHz. To compensate, I bought the Fast 15 network from Decware and that made the highs listenable and let the strengths of the drivers shine. They are a great bargain. |
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