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AUDIO FORUMS >> General Discussion and Support >> Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
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Message started by Bluemage on 03/24/22 at 21:38:41

Title: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by Bluemage on 03/24/22 at 21:38:41

And they want to know what kind you'd prefer them to make! Portably good news, we should fill out the form.

https://www.premierguitar.com/news/western-electric-considers-guitar-tubes?utm_campaign=RebelMouse&share_id=6970444&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_content=Premier+Guitar&fbclid=IwAR2RhFk2kl7ygX14dqv3-pYni25YLC30ENERHiaBuxB6KqaSdcYFQGOh_0E

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by Lon on 03/24/22 at 23:00:34

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by thethanimal on 03/25/22 at 20:57:21

Funny. I sent them an email last week telling them I’d buy new tubes if they’d work in my Zen triode, and the current owner Charles emailed me right back to say they’re working on it.

It doesn’t look like you can actually buy their phono stage or CD player right now but between those products I think they use a 6922 and 274B, so I’d guess those would be prime candidates for them to make anyway and they should work in a Zen if I understand correctly.

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/26/22 at 04:32:45

I have sent them a note requesting the 6P15P-EV video tube used in all Zen Amps since 1998. All still in service and all with lifetime warranties. The tooling would be the same as EL84 which I believe they have. So my advise is keep sending them requests for Decware amps because they just might decide to do it : ).

I am so stoked about this factory now in it's fourth year. Seeing them jump on it with this Russia crisis shows me they're serious. Decware will support them no matter how much the price is so long as the end product supports it. I understand they make amplifiers and so on, but my attitude on that. is and has always been buy the one you think sounds the best for money.

I looked up the 300B tubes from W.E. and the price is around $1500 a pair. In a properly design amplifier with AC heaters that is in the sound pocket vs. the power pocket the tubes should last 5 years with nearly continuous use. That would be around 43,800 hours. That means you will in reality never change the tubes unless you plan to live forever...

When you look at the 300B market in China and Russia it is just FULL of options starting as low as $90 a tube. Good Russian ones are around $400 a pair. That means that you can buy a 300B amp on a budget. It also means there is lots of room to upgrade and experiment.

After looking at their factory videos - all of them - they are going to have to sell many 1000's of pairs of 300B tubes at $1500 a pair just to pay for things so I can see the desire to make different models.

The fact that we can have hand made tubes in the USA again thrills me beyond belief. I have decided that whether or not they make tubes for our amps, I will look into making an amp for their tube. In honor of USA and the first good audio tube. The ideal voltage and power output to get into the Decware sound pocket will likely be around 6.5 watts so think SE34I.5 design with 300B tubes needs to be tested.

Steve

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by Bluemage on 03/26/22 at 15:32:44

Great info, Steve. Exciting times indeed!

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by Joey on 03/26/22 at 16:14:48

I have been intrigued lately by the 300B tubes and amps. I just ordered a 300b amp yesterday to try in a very large room paired with Cornwalls for what should be an old school setup.

I have the ufo25 in there now and need a touch more power. I don't think any amp could surpass the se8425 in sound quality though.

Compared to the cost of most quality audio components, $1500 for a pair of lifetime tubes doesn't seem that bad.

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by CAJames on 03/26/22 at 16:41:03

Quote:

Posted by: Steve Deckert Posted on: Today at 04:32:45

... I have decided that whether or not they make tubes for our amps, I will look into making an amp for their tube. In honor of USA and the first good audio tube. The ideal voltage and power output to get into the Decware sound pocket will likely be around 6.5 watts so think SE34I.5 design with 300B tubes needs to be tested.

Things may be getting complicated...

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by Lon on 03/26/22 at 17:04:28

I agree. I hope Steve doesn't make one. I don't want to have to buy one. . . I'm broke enough for the next decade or so without considering. But if he builds one I'll have to consider buying one. . . .

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by canonken on 03/26/22 at 17:16:31

Steve, that is great! Appreciate your insights.

It is interesting to see how they seem to be looking at the guitar market primarily. No idea how to read that, other than maybe it is a volume play? I know audio people would be willing to buy more expensive tubes...but maybe not as many? Of course a good tube will work in either application, where a cruddy tube might still be fine for a guitar.

I know a lot of people scoff at the price of their 300B - but when you consider you are basically buying a '5 year tube service' it becomes much more interesting. Turn it on, listen to it every day, be it 30 minutes or sunrise to sunset. No guilt or worry about 'wearing out' your tubes.

The year is 2022, the Apple M1 Ultra chip has 114 billion transistors, and we have a ramp up and mass produced tubes in the United States. This is exciting!

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by CAJames on 03/26/22 at 17:20:17

Yeah, and I'd need to buy 2. I have 2 UFO25s on order so if he builds them... and if you can strap them into balanced mono blocs... I guess that is just a bridge I'll cross when I come to it.

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by thethanimal on 03/28/22 at 03:39:33

Can I be the first preorder for that 300B amp?

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by DirtDawg on 03/28/22 at 05:17:45

So this is a race? I thought so, but wasn't sure.
[smiley=tunes57.gif]

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by DirtDawg on 03/28/22 at 05:22:55

The guitar tube market is HUGE!
That might be what keeps this WE manufacturing in the USA plan going for them.

I am not a guitar player, but I have many friends who are and just finding high grade 6L6s is almost a part time job for these folks.

I say even if they make tubes we don't need but KEEP ON MAKING tubes here, then it's good for all of us.

The cost is the cost... sorry, but it's 2022 and cool stuff costs some $.

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by Tony on 03/28/22 at 14:20:14

On the topic of Western Electric, I just read:

https://www.guitarworld.com/news/western-electric-american-guitar-amp-tubes

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by spyder1 on 03/28/22 at 19:42:53

Western Electric has yet to unveil working prototypes of proposed production vacuum tube versions. "Talk is Cheap," their products are expensive.

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by morp on 03/29/22 at 04:48:02

A 300B amp by Steve is an endgame dream. I called him a few years ago and asked him whether he had plans for one, since I've been curious about the 300B sound but have been unwilling to give up the Decware transparency.

At the time, he had no plans for a 300B amp. If that sentiment is changing, I'm very excited and will be getting in line for one.

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/29/22 at 16:48:42

When I saw that Western Electric was making tubes a few years back, I started to ponder it. Until then, I had zero interest in it. The overwhelming number of copies of the 300B that existed and still do gave me dread because there are bound to be huge differences between all the different brands which would ultimately translate into the amplifiers all varying in performance and sound. Not a very tight ship.

Also, of the many 300B amps I have heard, many I wasn't impressed with because possibly they were running clone tubes. The ones I did like, were running original WE tubes but were also multi-chassis designs with 3 power supplies and transformer coupling putting the price over 30K. Foolishly I assumed the reason they sounded good was the expense of the amp design but in hind sight it was probably the actual original tube that I liked. Nevertheless I figured at the time that to make something worthy it would have to be a high-dollar multi-chassis amplifier.

As I dove into the data sheets again as a result of this thread, I realized that many of the 300B amps are designed wrong. Most designers are hell bent at getting 8 watts from the tube, and many are using DC heaters. Turns out the tube doesn't like DC heaters and lasts quite a bit longer with AC heaters. Also, the tube doesn't love the higher voltages that are required to bring that max output of 8 watts. This got me to thinking that a simple execution of around 6 watts with AC heaters done in a Decware style with UFO transformers might actually sound great - at least with the genuine WE tube. Also it would be kinder to the Chinese 300B tube that sometimes don't live up to their specs.

So I'm going to try one and see if I can get it to float my boat.

Steve

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by morp on 03/29/22 at 20:54:52

Thanks Steve! As mentioned when we spoke on the phone, I'll be a buyer if you pull it off to your satisfaction. So excited :)

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by Brian on 03/30/22 at 04:02:37

I like the sound of this project.
Will you try transformer coupling in this amp?

Brian

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by Billparsons on 03/31/22 at 22:13:27

Steve, have you had a chance to sample the sound of the current production Western Electric 300B?

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by DAKO on 04/01/22 at 01:16:25

And just the other day I was thinking I would never part with my ZMA…… then I see this thread…….dammit.

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by Brian on 04/18/22 at 03:55:07

Can somebody tell me how 300B differed from 300A? Their data sheets look the same.

Brian

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by CAJames on 04/18/22 at 10:10:43

My understanding is they are the same electrically, the only difference is the position of a bayonet pin that makes the 300A compatible with an obscure older socket.

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by Brian on 04/19/22 at 04:05:31

Thanks, James!
You are a font of good information.

Brian

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by lazb on 04/24/22 at 18:28:46

A nice article on tubes from the on-line magazine "OCTAVE" published by PS Audio:
https://www.psaudio.com/copper/article/the-global-supply-of-vacuum-tubes-what-happens-now/

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by Doug on 04/25/22 at 02:11:25

My new Western Electric 300B tubes have about 30 hours of real music burn in on them and they are making incredibly beautiful music. How do they perform compared to the Genalex Gold Lions (with approximately 1,000 hours on them) that are the current stock output tubes on the Cary CAD-300SEI? I was quite satisfied with the Gold Lions, but the WE 300B’s are sooooooo much better! In what ways are they better? Take any performance area that we all pursue—detail, soundstaging, resolution, musicality, etc., etc., etc.—the WE’s win in every single category, hands down! And knowing that WE advises owners of their 300B tubes of a break in period of several hundred hours, this is really exciting. I will update on changes when they reach the 300 hour mark.

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by Doug on 04/25/22 at 02:25:48

And now I’m anxiously awaiting some Western Electric preamp tubes, but for the time being I’ll have to settle on Cryotone 6SN7’s! It sure seems that the USA tube market has taken a tremendously positive turn.

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/29/22 at 04:13:40

Quote:

Thank you for your report! It is very encouraging as the voicing of my 300B amp is stalled out until the WE300B arrive. They are on the way now. I am using the Gold Lions and they are lovely sounding, but I know there is more.

Steve

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by Doug on 04/30/22 at 03:33:57

Steve, you are welcome for the early-use WE300B report. I should have also noted that the WE’s made some expected noises due to expanding and contracting parts, but that they also made some unusual noises that were amplified through the speakers……..dinging, zinging, zithering, tizzy kinds of sounds that I’ve never heard from any tube during my 40 years of using tube gear. The WE300B’s are now at approximately 70 hours of music burn-in and the typical expanding metal sounds have completely cleared, as have most of the weird trebly noises. The treble is still a bit hot and I am anxiously anticipating it settling in within a few more weeks of burn-in.

Now, on to a touchy subject. I’ve been holding back on directly addressing you on a specific issue, but today is probably as good a time to as any to say how disappointed I am in you. Disappointed is actually a serious understatement. I’ve waited for close to 10 years to buy another big directly heated triode amp, and I finally broke down and bought a Cary CAD-300SEI Mk6 integrated last summer. It’s Cary’s totally maxed out version, with a few personally requested custom mods. It’s a full blown class A, point to point wired, fixed bias, no negative feedback kind of amp, with a massive power supply. The Cary is a really sweet amp, but what happens a few months after I buy the it? You announce a 300B amp! Geeeze Louise! You really know how to hurt a guy!

So now what? Am I going to have to buy one? Probably.

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/30/22 at 04:08:37

Hi Doug,

Well it will be interesting to see if I hear weird noises : )

Sorry about letting you down. I have come to realize that there is never a good time to change something or come out with anything new. There is always casualties. And I am not very premeditated about what I do next which never helps.

I got my tubes today, and they have been in for 10 minutes so far. Already I am happy. I am now hearing just the music, not the tube or the amp which is my style.

-Steve

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by Doug on 04/30/22 at 15:03:17

My rather poor attempt at some tongue-n-cheek humor aside, I will most certainly acquire one of your 300B amps. And now that I am well under a year now on the amplifier build list for a ZR2, the ZR2 may be pushed to the back of the line to allow the 300B to cut in.

Since this is a Western Electric tube manufacturing thread, I’ll work harder to stay on topic. At 80 hours of burn-in on my WE300B’s, I am still finding them to be bright in the treble, but according to this WE note, their 300B’s sometimes require 500 hours to reach musical bliss.

https://www.westernelectric.com/blog/application-note-11202020

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by Doug on 10/05/22 at 03:45:38

One Thousand Hour Update:

The WE300B and Cryotone 6SN7 tubes in my 300B power amp surpassed the 1,000 hour mark this past weekend. These five tubes produce the most beautiful music imaginable. The palpability is far beyond all expectations. I find no weaknesses at all with either the WE’s or the Cryotones. They are great tubes, and they play so well together.

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by Steve Deckert on 10/05/22 at 04:06:07

Yes, I can confirm the same results over here. My experience has lead me to believe they have no emphasis in any one direction, such as brightness even new out of the box... Instead they are very neutral compared to the other 300B tubes I've heard. What I noticed is that the upstream tubes, such as driver stage and input stage are extra extra able to effect the sound and the 300B is just letting you hear those upstream tubes with so much depth it throughs you off. This is another way of implying that upstream tube rolling changes to the sound are magnified quite a lot.

Steve

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by CAJames on 10/05/22 at 15:11:07

So I decided to buy high end 300B tubes for my amp. Based on my online "friends" there were 3 options:

WE: The classic 300B sound. Gorgeous midrange liquidity, but slightly rolled off highs and lows relative to the other tubes.

Takatsuki: A little less classic than WE. Less emphasis on the mids, more uniform top to bottom. A little more transparent.

Elrog: (the current favorite) More dynamic and transparent, less warm. Not the classic 300B sound.

Maybe the best comparison I saw was in terms of female vocalists.

WE = Etta James
Takatsuki = Ella Fitzgerald
Elrog = Whitney Houston

So I got Takatsuki and have no regrets. After about 100 hours they really sound fabulous. And my 300B amp actually sounds remarkably like my UFOs. My amp uses 6SN7 tubes for input and driver as well, and I have a wide variety of single triode equivalents I've collected for my preamp: 6J5, 6C5, L63, CV1135, Type 37 and 76. I haven't done a ton of input tube rolling but in my (limited) experience changing the inputs tubes didn't make nearly as big a change as going form Chinese 300Bs (that I really liked) to the Takatsuki (that are just WOW).

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by Geno on 10/05/22 at 15:53:54

CA,

I guess that this means you have renounced your thrift-minded Scottish heritage? :D :D :D

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by CAJames on 10/05/22 at 16:19:35

Quote:

Posted by: Geno Posted on: Today at 15:53:54

...I guess that this means you have renounced your thrift-minded Scottish heritage...

Yeah. I've been hitting the Scotch pretty hard the last few weeks.

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by Tony on 10/05/22 at 16:26:27

Good Morning CAJames

What a great way to describe the differences in the 300 B tubes you sampled. All the tubes must have been remarkable, but you cannot go wrong with Ella Fitzgerald :)

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by jec3504 on 10/05/22 at 16:30:37

Broke in to triple digits on the wait list. Going to change my order for the 300B.

Quote:

What I noticed is that the upstream tubes, such as driver stage and input stage are extra extra able to effect the sound and the 300B is just letting you hear those upstream tubes with so much depth it throughs you off. This is another way of implying that upstream tube rolling changes to the sound are magnified quite a lot.

This statement sold me. I feel the same way with the Cryotone EL34 in the Torii MK5. Adding another Decware amp is a no brainer.

Should have a nice collection of Lii Audio speakers by then. This rabbit hole gets deeper every month. Love it! Thanks Steve having a blast with Decware and affiliates gear.

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by CAJames on 10/05/22 at 17:26:48

Quote:

Posted by: Tony Posted on: Today at 16:26:27

...What a great way to describe the differences in the 300 B tubes you sampled. All the tubes must have been remarkable, but you cannot go wrong with Ella Fitzgerald...

To be clear, I have not heard all those tubes. I am passing on collected message board wisdom. Buying one pair of these tubes was a lot for me, dudes that own all 3, and multiples of all 3 kinda blows my mind.

Agree re: Ella.

(although I could happily live with any of them...)

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by Lon on 10/05/22 at 17:33:54

I think when I receive the Sarah I'll look for a Betty Carter tube and a Helen Merrill tube. ;)

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by jec3504 on 10/05/22 at 18:08:51

I vote for a review sample be sent to Lon.

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by CAJames on 10/05/22 at 18:34:43

By the time Lon gets his amp he may be more interested in the Golden Girls!

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by Lon on 10/05/22 at 18:37:00

Not a chance. ;) I bet even if it takes a few years. . . I'll still not watch that show or be in that sort of frame of mind.

Oddly I listen to more recent music this decade than the last two beforehand. But Betty Carter and Helen Merrill are two vocalists that I think I would like the "tube version" of as much as Ella.

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by johnnycopy on 10/05/22 at 20:20:53

One of my psvane 300b tubes failed last week much to my chagrin.

Searched around for replacement. Considered we, cryotone but ended up with Eml xls which were cheaper than we, but still with 5 year warranty.

Eml xls are the preferred tube by my amp manufacturer.

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by Rivieraranch on 11/11/22 at 01:13:15

I hate the Pissvane brand. Just hate it.

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by Bottlehead on 11/11/22 at 06:17:45

Hey Johnnycopy, where did you get the EML tubes? I have called and emailed their supposed rep on the east coast, and got no reply.

Thanks,
Randy

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by GroovySauce on 11/11/22 at 12:14:04

https://verdantaudio.com/ Is an official dealer of EML tubes. Scott is very responsive to email.

I run EML 5u4g in my Torii and ZP3. Fantastic tubes.

Title: Re: Western Electric to manufacture new USA tubes.
Post by Bottlehead on 11/12/22 at 07:50:13

Thanks, Groovy!

Randy