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https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl AUDIO FORUMS >> Classifieds >> FS: ZBox - Skip The 3 Year Wait! https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1646939649 Message started by DancingSea on 03/10/22 at 19:14:09 |
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Title: FS: ZBox - Skip The 3 Year Wait! Post by DancingSea on 03/10/22 at 19:14:09 Aloha, Selling my beloved ZBox. Have used it to great success in between a Marantz SACD 30n and integrated amps from Hegel and Marantz. Have found the ZBox's tube improves the tone and feel of digital music, and tube rolling provides inexpensive and effective sonic variety. Recently purchased a ZRock2 and a CSP3, therefore simply no longer have a need for the ZBox. Unit is in excellent condition. Even though it was built in 2005, I see no marks or scuffs. And the design has remained unchanged, thus this is the latest version. I'm the 3rd owner with all sales happening here between forum members. Includes a nondescript 12AU7 tube that was provided in my purchase. Price is $395 via PayPal friends and family. That includes shipping via Priority Mail anywhere in the USA. If you desire PayPal insurance, the price is $407. In all my years on the forum, I've yet to figure out how to successfully post a photo. Feel free to PM your email address and I'm happy to send you pics. |
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Title: Re: FS: ZBox - Skip The 3 Year Wait! Post by DancingSea on 03/11/22 at 20:50:33 Sold! |
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Title: Re: FS: ZBox - Skip The 3 Year Wait! Post by Rivieraranch on 03/12/22 at 00:33:27 Three year wait is a little exaggerated |
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Title: Re: FS: ZBox - Skip The 3 Year Wait! Post by Archie on 03/12/22 at 00:53:24 I've been following the wait list thread and I've seen estimates of from 35 to 40 units per month mentioned. With well over 1400 on the list (just checked), isn't 3 years conservative at this point? |
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Title: Re: FS: ZBox - Skip The 3 Year Wait! Post by DancingSea on 03/12/22 at 01:04:21 Yeah, 3 year wait is the optimistic perspective. |
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Title: Re: FS: ZBox - Skip The 3 Year Wait! Post by Sai on 03/12/22 at 03:13:40 I ordered my Torii (Now MK V!) about a year ago. Looks like I’m almost at the home stretch waiting for it to ship! The wait is long, but there’s a lot to love about a hand built work of art…. |
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Title: Re: FS: ZBox - Skip The 3 Year Wait! Post by DancingSea on 03/12/22 at 03:22:05 Yes, I also ordered a year ago and my wait was just over 11 months. But there has been a massive flood of orders since April 2021 with an inability to increase production in a meaningful way. When I ordered on March 1, 2021, I was 370 on the list. Place an order today, and you're over 1400 on the list. Therefore, those who place an order today, are looking at a legit 3 year wait. That's in no way complaining, just an empirical observation and the reason for my "Skip The 3 Year Wait!" title. Purchasing my ZBox does indeed skip at least a 3 year wait at current production levels, and hence a good motivation to buy my unit. And it thankfully sold very quickly and is on its way back to Decware for mods before going to its new owner. Mods seem to skip the waitlist. |
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Title: Re: FS: ZBox - Skip The 3 Year Wait! Post by DirtDawg on 03/12/22 at 06:39:49 Just stop at that and think for short beat, everyone. Consider 35 to 40 units per month! From one small shop, fully tested and guaranteed for LIFE. Then throw in mods to already built gear from time to time! That is an astounding production rate! I am not on the list yet, but I have to applaud the Decware crew. My older, second hand SE84Cs are still working like ... perfect. I will get a ZRock and better cabling, soon-ish. |
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Title: Re: FS: ZBox - Skip The 3 Year Wait! Post by DancingSea on 03/12/22 at 07:22:27 Once again, no one is complaining. I used the factual reality of the current 3+ year wait simply as a marketing ploy. Nothing more, nothing less. |
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Title: Re: FS: ZBox - Skip The 3 Year Wait! Post by DancingSea on 03/12/22 at 08:22:35 And one last point. I think it's ridiculous that so many people complain about the length of the waitlist, either overtly or passively. Decware is doing the best they can and we all should back off. This is all part of my new internet forum approach of arguing both sides of an issue simultaneously...... |
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Title: Re: FS: ZBox - Skip The 3 Year Wait! Post by Rivieraranch on 03/12/22 at 11:34:03 I don’t believe it. Decware is taking steps to increase production. There will not be a three year wait. That three year wait is rubbish. |
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Title: Re: FS: ZBox - Skip The 3 Year Wait! Post by JBzen on 03/12/22 at 12:38:20 Not too sure about a 3 year wait is rubbish! Decware has been taking steps for a year now with no apparent increase in production rate to meet demand. I've seen problems with the addition of personal. Costs of scaling up would be steep as an artesian enterprise. If Decware wants to remain as a cottage business then a 3 year wait is real and will increase as the order backlog increases. My two. John |
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Title: Re: FS: ZBox - Skip The 3 Year Wait! Post by GroovySauce on 03/12/22 at 13:28:54 Wait just a gosh darned second! I was the one who brought the Zbox from DancingSea or should we call he DancesWithLies! I’m beyond outragged! If I get this right, it will be less than 3 years for a new one from the mother ship?!?!?!! THIS IS BLATANT FALSE ADVERTISING!!!! I’m demeaning my money back! Plus compensation! Good things I have a lawyer on consistant retainer for all these people who are constantly scamming me day in and day out! DWL be expecting calls from my lawyer! Please excuse my poor attempt at satire. Why does it hurt so much to make intentional spelling and grammatical errors? |
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Title: Re: FS: ZBox - Skip The 3 Year Wait! Post by jec3504 on 03/12/22 at 14:24:37 Quote:
Consider myself lucky. It comes naturally and painlessly. |
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Title: Re: FS: ZBox - Skip The 3 Year Wait! Post by DancingSea on 03/12/22 at 16:35:06 GS, LOL! RiverRanch, you’re either I’ll informed or not good at math. At the current rate of 35 units per month at 1400 orders that we know about, with more likely yet posted, and that’s after hiring one new tech who crossed wired my CSP3 requiring Decware to pay for expensive Hawaii shipping both ways ($200) - that works out today to be at least 40 months, or 3 years and 4 months. And they are typically behind in posting the orders. Decware cannot easily scale. And thus far the one new tech they’ve been able to hire has not made things go appreciably faster. So as of today, it is a 3+ year wait. Those are the facts. Should that somehow change, then we can celebrate. The truth is that that run of glowing YouTube reviews has upset the Decware apple cart. They can’t meet demand which means Decware does not make the extra money, and wait times have entered the absurd. Wildly, the long wait seems to sell yet more units. People figuring that if someone is willing to wait that long, it must be worth it! Which, of course, it is. |
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Title: Re: FS: ZBox - Skip The 3 Year Wait! Post by JBzen on 03/12/22 at 16:54:56 Now DS if your going to go into details give those in full. Not only did Decware hire a new tech(s?), they also hired a QC person and office clerk. In your error in case it was a combination of a wiring error by a unknown tech and a failure of QC to catch it before it shipped. The new office personal has been doing a good job of keeping the order lists up to date during regular working hours. John |
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Title: Re: FS: ZBox - Skip The 3 Year Wait! Post by DancingSea on 03/12/22 at 17:18:49 The material facts remain that as of today, it is a 3+ year wait. I’m not clear why some find that reality offensive. 1400+ orders and 35 units shipping per month = 3 years and 4 months. Last fall that same math showed a 2 year wait. All the new hiring has led to an additional year wait! Not because they aren’t doing their job, but because new orders keep pouring in and they can’t scale to meet demand. Another issue is that the fabulous Sarah seems to not explain the wait times properly to new orders. Hopefully it has changed, but her method in the past has been to look at what orders are shipping today and use that as the metric. If an order shipping today was from March, 2021, then she in the past would say that it’s a one year wait for orders placed today. But that is a flawed statement because it does not account for the crush of orders in the queue which turned a one year wait into 2, and now onto 3 years. The key metric is how many orders ship each month. What date an order shipping today was placed is irrelevant. And unintentionally misleading. I’m in no respect complaining. But these are the facts as of today, the wait is pushing 3 years. Hopefully they can find a way to make that go faster, but it’s going to be a challenge. This is like arguing about the weather. But how silly, just open the window and look at the sky. If it’s raining, it’s raining. |
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Title: Re: FS: ZBox - Skip The 3 Year Wait! Post by DancingSea on 03/12/22 at 17:43:18 The only way to actually refute the "3 year wait" conclusion is to provide alternative data regarding the length of the list, and how many orders are shipping each month. As it is, the rate of shipment is easy to figure out. If you're on the list, write down your position today. Check back in a month as see how far you've moved. That's the rate of shipment each month. Then truck on over to the waitlist and see how many orders are posted. Divide the number of orders by the rate of shipment, and you have how long the current wait times are. Currently 3 years, 4 months. If you wish to refute those conclusions, then you need to provide alternative data. This is not a subjective audiophile conversation. It's simple math based upon publicly available data..... I would be thrilled to be incorrect. But statements like RiverRanch's that the 3 year wait is rubbish, have little meaning when the publicly available mathematical data paints an obviously different picture..... |
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Title: Re: FS: ZBox - Skip The 3 Year Wait! Post by NormD on 03/12/22 at 17:53:45 Of course your calculations assume that build time for all units is the same, which obviously is not the case. The list needs to be weighted on the build complexity. But on average, we can go with your math. :) |
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Title: Re: FS: ZBox - Skip The 3 Year Wait! Post by Tone-Deaf on 03/12/22 at 18:07:18 Hello, Dancing Sea, and congratulations on moving your Zbox to a new home. And glad that you are enjoying your new components. I have appreciated your posts, and your analysis of the wait-list issues. And I appreciate your constructive observations, like having good notice of the potential wait-time. However, I do have a slightly different view of some of the numbers, that I wanted to "share" (offered in the spirit of good conversation, and not argument!). I understand your estimate of a wait-time of 3+ years. But I am seeing changes that may not be reflected in that estimate. As JBzen noted, there is now an additional administrative person, and the order list does seem to be fully updated now (the most recent order shown is from yesterday). I ordered on "Black Friday", and first showed on the list on January 29. As of yesterday (41 days after I appeared on the list), I have moved up 66 places (which may include both orders fulfilled and orders cancelled). That is about 1.6 places per day, or about 49 places per month. At that rate, the last person on the list (about 1432) would get their order in about 29 months (a little less than 2.5 years). 2.5 years is still a long time to wait, but it also enough time that additional actions could be taken to shorten the wait time. For example, Decware recently changed their policy so that new items can no longer be added to an existing order. Also, there is more time to hire and train new staff. So I guess my point is that I think the wait time may end up shorter than what we can estimate based on past experience. And as I have said before, I understood the potential long wait time when I placed my order, so I am not complaining. (PS - I know I should not have posted this, as it may "jinx me" and result in a 3+ year wait time). |
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Title: Re: FS: ZBox - Skip The 3 Year Wait! Post by jec3504 on 03/12/22 at 18:21:11 My new order is on the bottom of the list. Placed it with full knowledge of a very long wait time. Trying to maximize my order that's under 100 on the list is getting monotonous. Have a great space that's perfect for what I planned. Thinking about long term if I sell and move got the old brain working overtime. Good escape from my real problems in life that money or effort can't fix. Maybe we could start a betting pool on when my latest order comes in. That's a joke probably illegal. |
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Title: Re: FS: ZBox - Skip The 3 Year Wait! Post by DancingSea on 03/12/22 at 18:51:39 Tone-Deaf, Thank you for the constructive feedback. Please note that we are essentially saying the same thing and that I agree with you. My comments about the "3+ year wait" are specific for *today*. Obviously I cannot predict how Decware's rate of production might change tomorrow. And if it does change, then yes, wait time would be less. We will have to see how that shakes out, it's going to be a challenge for Steve. That same sort math of averages accurately predicted the ship date of my ZR2 and CSP3. I did the calculations last summer, and they were accurate within 2 weeks of their shipping in mid-February 2022. To reemphasize, my math only speaks to today. Today being Saturday, March 12, 2022. But the current 35 units shipping per month was the same rate as last summer. And the new tech was hired to the best of my knowledge in December. The reality is that Decware cannot scale much. The YouTube video reviews exist in perpetuity and have been seen by about 200,000 people, and counting, around the world. It is extraordinarily effective marketing. As that YouTube machine rolls on and orders keep pouring in, Decware will simply not be able to hire enough people to scale to meet demand unless interests starts to wane. But how can it wane when you have Steve Guttenberg, Andrew Robinson, and Thomas & Stereo gushing about Decware? Andrew Robinson essentially states the $1300 amp is the best amp ever made. Ever! Evidence of that is proven by the reality of the wait ballooning to 3 years despite the new hires. Steve simply can't hire enough people to support the current trajectory set forth by YouTube. He can't. And that is a difficult conundrum of how success isn't necessarily always a positive thing. And what a headache all of this must be for Steve. |
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Title: Re: FS: ZBox - Skip The 3 Year Wait! Post by jec3504 on 03/12/22 at 19:02:49 Funny I found Decware first before seeing any Youtube Vids on Hifi. Decware is responsible for me finding audiophile reviews. |
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Title: Re: FS: ZBox - Skip The 3 Year Wait! Post by DancingSea on 03/12/22 at 20:26:47 Haha! YouTube is a road to ruin…. :D |
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Title: Re: FS: ZBox - Skip The 3 Year Wait! Post by DancingSea on 03/12/22 at 20:52:15 As I've written effusively elsewhere, the addition of the base models of the ZR2 and CSP3 have taken my solid state system to new heights. For the first time in perhaps 8 years, I've reached the point where I'm utterly satisfied with the sound. I can discern no more weaknesses in my system. There's really nothing that I can point to and say "that needs to be upgraded". It has been a long road. But I am, dare I say, "satisfied". Any more upgrades will be out of idle curiosity and compulsion rather than genuine need or weakness to be corrected. I ordered not really knowing what the reality of the Decware experience would be. I took a chance. Knowing what I know now, I'd happily wait even 3 years to get where I am now. Decware is THAT good. |
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Title: Re: FS: ZBox - Skip The 3 Year Wait! Post by jec3504 on 03/12/22 at 22:12:45 DancingSea, Maybe it's more than Youtube adding to the waitlist. |
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Title: Re: FS: ZBox - Skip The 3 Year Wait! Post by DancingSea on 03/12/22 at 22:14:40 The vast majority is YouTube. After Steve Gutenberg, the wait went from 2-3 months to a year. After Andrew Robinson the list tripled. I personally had only ordered the ZRock2. The YouTube reviews + Lon and Will sold me on the CSP3… YouTube is a force. Doge in China had to open a new facility after being slammed by orders from Thomas & Stereo. |
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Title: Re: FS: ZBox - Skip The 3 Year Wait! Post by Rivieraranch on 03/13/22 at 01:57:36 Somebody please LOCK this thread! It is eclipsing my post for the HR-1’s. |
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Title: Re: FS: ZBox - Skip The 3 Year Wait! Post by DancingSea on 03/13/22 at 02:22:24 RiverRanch, Lock the thread? That seems extreme. How many threads have ever been locked on these forums? If you don’t like the thread, just don’t read it. It was your comments about the current 3 year wait that set the thread off in this direction. Before your comments, it was a simple successful sale. Just saying’ |
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Title: Re: FS: ZBox - Skip The 3 Year Wait! Post by Geno on 03/13/22 at 02:40:50 Hi Dance, I have to agree with Riviera. This section should be about selling equipment. There is plenty of room for any topic discussion elsewhere on the forum. Best, Geno |
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Title: Re: FS: ZBox - Skip The 3 Year Wait! Post by Archie on 03/13/22 at 03:25:49 Thank you Forum Police! ::) Sometimes threads go off topic, or haven't you noticed? :-X |
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Title: Re: FS: ZBox - Skip The 3 Year Wait! Post by DirtDawg on 03/13/22 at 04:09:16 I say, it's near midnight on a Saturday and we all need a beer. If I lived closer I would have Steve's fire going by now and a cold one ready, steaks ready to burn. Maybe he'll check in soon, possibly post. I don't really think there is much to this "discussion" that will carry over to spring. Everyone, pop a top! Light a tube, burn a burger, read more books ... Or go tell your own fire how it's supposed to be for today. ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: FS: ZBox - Skip The 3 Year Wait! Post by Geno on 03/13/22 at 04:13:20 Ok. Jim, bump it to the top. |
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