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AUDIO FORUMS >> General Discussion and Support >> Oh Sh**t moment ...PS Audio Power Plant 12
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Message started by mperdue63 on 07/15/21 at 14:56:54

Title: Oh Sh**t moment ...PS Audio Power Plant 12
Post by mperdue63 on 07/15/21 at 14:56:54

I have a PS Audio Power Plant 12 in my office at work. I have a Taboo, CSP3, Metrum Jade Dac and Ambre, a small sub, a small network switch and a MAC mini for Roon all connected to the power plant. I walked into to my office on Monday morning and turned on my equipment, device by device....nothing..no lights power etc. Checked the power plant and it seemed okay. The only connected devices that powered up was the MAC mini and the network switch, checked the power plant setting etc...all okay. So I called PS Audio and they answered immediately. (great customer support). They listened to my situation and immediately suggested that I plug one of the non-working devices directly into the wall power recept. and it still did not power up. Next they had me check the fuse, to my surprise every device had a blown fuse! I asked about the chances of that happening behind a power plant and PS Audio told me it happens frequently! I knew that the power plant was not designed as power protection device but thought that it would provide some level of protection against voltage spikes etc. We had storms on the previous day and they thought that might have been the culprit. The good news is that Decware builds great stuff and provides the protection, most high quality electronics are fused I guess, but if you are expecting protection from your power plant you need to re-think your plan. I'm still scratching my head because if the power plant re-generates the power why would it allow more voltage etc to the connected equipment? So now how can I protect my equipment from another power episode?

Title: Re: Oh Sh**t moment ...PS Audio Power Plant 12
Post by DPC on 07/15/21 at 15:21:47

Food for thought

Title: Re: Oh Sh**t moment ...PS Audio Power Plant 12
Post by HockessinKid on 07/15/21 at 15:36:10

Well that being the case, I wouldn't install expensive aftermarket fuses in your equipment. FWIW I try to unplug my PI Audio UberBUSS from the AC receptacles whenever we have Severe Thunderstorm warnings in the area. I just hate replacing SR orange fuses given their cost.

HK

Title: Re: Oh Sh**t moment ...PS Audio Power Plant 12
Post by Dr3wman on 07/15/21 at 16:22:07

What should you plug a power plant into instead? Would this be where a surge protector or similar device is used?

As a follow up question: Decware''s Zen Line conditioner, would it be subject to similar conditions? Should it also be plugged into something other than a wall socket?

I am still learning this seemingly vast subject of power generators, line conditioners etc..........what I need/should be concerned about/consider.

Title: Re: Oh Sh**t moment ...PS Audio Power Plant 12
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/15/21 at 17:49:48

A power re-generator, like the PS Audio, is actually a large power amplifier. It has a built-in frequency generator on the input set to 60 Hz. The high current output of the amplifier puts out 120 volts at 60 Hz.

Being an amplifier designer myself, it is a logical assumption that whatever happens on the input is going to be magnified by the output, so a small power spike has the potential to become amplified into a large power spike. While I am certain the devices are designed with lots of circuitry to prevent such a problem, it obviously doesn't work well as evidence of all your components having blown fuses, but not the power regenerator itself.

The difference between the Zen Line Conditioner is that it de-couples you from the power grid with a giant toroidal transformer. Also all spikes and noise are filtered out before the isolation from the transformer. It is a 100% passive device with no electronics or active circuity to fail. If there is a spike on the input it is largely blocked at the input, just as I'm sure it is on a power regenerator, the difference is that the toroidal transformer is not a power amplifier and therefor is not going to amplify small spikes into large ones.

The ZLC is a Zen approach to clean power with the only real goal of increasing liquidity and removing grain in the sound which is the result of noisy power. The fact that it also protects your equipment and offers a margin of safety is just a bonus. A power regenerator is the exact opposite of a Zen approach, favoring great complexity that not only employs all the components of a fully working amplifier, but a computer and likely firmware as well.

In theory, a perfect working regenerator that is properly sized for the load, should work as well or better than the ZLC, but in the real world, I doubt that is often the case and if you want to see which one lasts longer, just look at the warranty.

Steve

Title: Re: Oh Sh**t moment ...PS Audio Power Plant 12
Post by Lon on 07/15/21 at 18:29:23

Sorry to hear about the P12 and the fuses blowing on all the devices connected. That seems an unusal result in my experience--whenever there has been a surge that interrupts power to my component my PS Audio regenerators first shut down and has never blown a fuse on them--the connected components have been protected. I use a Power Plant Premier in a system (which I also use a ZLC in), a P10 and a P15 in two other systems. Hopefully this never happens again!

Title: Re: Oh Sh**t moment ...PS Audio Power Plant 12
Post by GroovySauce on 07/15/21 at 19:13:56

When I had a P3 if there was an over or under voltage situation it would go into protect mode. It would trigger on a weekly basis. That's different from an electrical storm spike. I was in the Philippines and the power grid there wasn't great.

I now use a brick wall https://www.brickwall.com/ to protect my equipment. Lighting will be more frequent and more intense in the next decade, so a good investment.

I'm waiting on KCC scientific 1000w regenerator to be released.

I've been tempted by the DECWARE ZLC. If the wait wasn't so long I most likely would have one already.

Title: Re: Oh Sh**t moment ...PS Audio Power Plant 12
Post by mperdue63 on 07/15/21 at 20:16:27

Thanks to everyone for their input. At home I have a PS 15 that most of my main system is connected to. I also have a ZLC that my turntable etc is connected to. Maybe I should connect the PS15 to the ZLC as well. Thanks again for the insight.
Malcolm

Title: Re: Oh Sh**t moment ...PS Audio Power Plant 12
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/17/21 at 04:50:51

Sorry, I was a little dark on the power regeneration, but it's my nature. This has been haunting me for a long time, and if I just had some -- (time) -- one thing I have wanted to pursue for a very very very long time, is an actual power generator. Not a regenerator, an actually mechanical analogue generator.

Since I probably won't get lucky enough to have time to make one, I am going to put the idea in the collective consciousness right now. This in past trials has always resulted in the idea manifesting somewhere else and costing you nothing. Of course it makes you nothing as well, but it nevertheless happens.

What audiophiles need is a cast flywheel with precision bearings fixed with magnets and red copper oxygen free copper coils (or silver) designed to create the perfect mechanical sine wave like a giant turntable. It has to be heavy and large to be silent. It can be powered by a belt and a precision motor.

This device could in theory create a perfectly honed sine wave at 50/60 cycles or whatever you want, without a single solid state component, computer, or over-engineered process to eventually fail and drive sales of new and improved.

And you can only imagine how say a bronze cast and polished wheel that was around 20 inches in diameter and a few hundred pounds would look silently spinning in the background while it powers all of your stereo gear... it's mechanical precision is what would determine the resolution of the sine wave so think of it as a giant Swiss watch

Steve

Title: Re: Oh Sh**t moment ...PS Audio Power Plant 12
Post by Stefan on 07/17/21 at 19:07:39

That is a fantastic idea Steve!
Hopefully someone more mechanically inclined than me picks it up and makes it a reality! Would look really cool with a glass plate so you could see the wheel spinning...

Title: Re: Oh Sh**t moment ...PS Audio Power Plant 12
Post by 4krow on 07/18/21 at 05:28:11

Steve,
When I first read your post, I misunderstood what you meant by a power generator. I thought, Good Lord he will need 40 acres to keep that engine far enough from being heard in the listening room. Then I realized that you are taking an electric motor to drive an AC generator. Now that is separation! I envisioned it to be in the basement spinning away with a bank of outlets to supply needed AC to components. I like it, I really do.
The PS P300 that I have is different than the current models that PS Audio sells. And of course, it has been hot rodded. First of all, it supplies balanced power. Second, if I got this right, it takes AC, converts it to DC, where it is then regenerated and amplified for component use. Yah, I know, that is what they say about the newer models, but my experience with them is a lot of down time.
I do agree that a large toroid transformer that develops balanced power for it's secondaries is the right approach, and years ago I bought an 80 lb. BPT model that also has separate secondary windings for 6 sets of outlets. I will never sell it because like you said it is simple effective and will last a very long time.

Title: Re: Oh Sh**t moment ...PS Audio Power Plant 12
Post by MrDerrick on 07/18/21 at 13:16:32

The flywheel concept is currently used in some "UPS" applications.

The flywheel spins a generator to maintain power after an interruption until a generator can come on line and perform an in phase transition.

Caterpillar does a demo at one of their plants where they kill the utility and the entire plant never skips a beat.

There was even chatter about driving the flywheel with an air turbine being spun by compressed air in a storage tank to extend the time for transition to generator run and transition.

Title: Re: Oh Sh**t moment ...PS Audio Power Plant 12
Post by 4krow on 07/18/21 at 18:19:40

A friend of mine just offered a medical grade 900VA isolation transformer this morning. I can only imagine finding a heavy duty enough chassis to house it. Very tempting though. Maybe I can use it as a record weight. ;D

Title: Re: Oh Sh**t moment ...PS Audio Power Plant 12 :update
Post by mperdue63 on 08/05/21 at 02:47:26

Update to my original post. The following was copied directly from the PS Audio web page tonight!
Not my experience at all!
YMMV

An electrical surge, or spiked transient, is an intense, short-duration voltage increase that travels through electrical wiring in our homes. It can severely damage connected equipment. Shielding devices from these potential electrical problems is mandatory if we're to protect our investment and ensure the safety of our homes. These electrical transients are not the only potentially damaging problems faced by our sensitive audio systems. There are also sustained over-voltage conditions that many surge suppression devices will not be able to protect equipment from. Owners who have invested in a Power Plant can rest assured their connected equipment will be safe from any power line event such as over voltage, under voltage, surges, spikes and potentially threatening problems. The input voltage to the Power Plant is fully protected by state-of-the-art clamping devices and the output of the Power Plant is fully regulated so even large voltage swings that would normally damage connected equipment are made safe by either clamping or regulating. In most cases, connected equipment enjoys the protection and performance benefits of fully regulated power, even under extreme circumstances.