Forums https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl AUDIO FORUMS >> General Discussion and Support >> Which of these two samples sounds best? https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1609569045 Message started by Steve Deckert on 01/02/21 at 06:30:44

Title: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Steve Deckert on 01/02/21 at 06:30:44 Waiting for the trademark registration to come back as I post this. In 2001 I started working on a process to predominately make digital sound more like analogue. Over the years I have revisited it many times, and have made dramatic improvements until finally in 2020 in the midst of all this Covid crap I finished it. It has evolved into a fully analogue mastering process that is used to make recordings sound better. That means while it is a proprietary analog process, it has nothing to do with digital vs. analog.  It works both ways which is to say it will capture the magic of analog tape on digital files as well as improve digital masters prior to printing to tape. Anyway I'm really pleased with the final result so I extend the following offer: If you have a great recording on 24bit digital or analog tape that you think can't get any better, send it to me and I will remaster a copy of it for your comparison. The process is fully adjustable giving it the ability to overcome recordings with limiting like virtually all streaming music today. Of course if you have non-limited masters that is what we would prefer. As you might expect it's an extremely purist process, all point-to-point wired. What it's not is a rack of pro-audio components, processors, cables, computers and plastic - quite the opposite. This process is the Zen of processing if you will, its simplicity is no different than our amplifiers and equally stunning. Thought I would start 2021 with a bang! Steve

Title: Re: High Fidelity Sound Labs! Post by Steve Deckert on 01/02/21 at 06:31:00

Title: Re: High Fidelity Sound Labs! Post by Jeff of Arabica on 01/02/21 at 06:55:55 Love the name.  The logo is distinct in that it has a look that is unlikely to get confused with another brand...a good thing.  So, I find it both unique and professional looking. This is very intriguing and I will absolutely be following your developments.  I will definitely take you up on your offer and will send a file that checks the boxes in order to experience your process.  Certainly the end product of either improving digital files or positively influencing digital recordings prior to going to tape can only bring positive outcomes.   Not knowing anything about what you have developed, it seems damn cool!

Title: Re: High Fidelity Sound Labs! Post by Brian on 01/03/21 at 02:33:29 This sounds like one of the best ideas. Anything that improves the sound of digital must get top marks. I thank you for bringing this out. Brian

Title: Re: High Fidelity Sound Labs! Post by Stefan on 01/03/21 at 23:10:10 Congrats Steve! Looking forward to how this will unfold. Maybe someday it could be something that we can plug between our streamer and the amp :) Something like a zrock++ ;)

Title: Re: High Fidelity Sound Labs! Post by Steve Deckert on 01/04/21 at 01:41:44 A ZROCK2 is all anyone needs to fix deflated playback.   As far as the process for HFSL, it is not a one size fits all solution.  It has to be set up for individual recordings based on the recordings needs.  It's not something that can be packaged like a ZROCK2 ; )

Title: Re: High Fidelity Sound Labs! Post by Steve Deckert on 01/05/21 at 03:58:50 The process is just about the recording.  It works on digital and analogue alike.  I am presently testing on 2nd generation analog masters that were live 2 track with no mixer.  The acid test if you will.  Hopefully I'll be able to post the results and let you pick which one you think sounds best.  I plan on posting several blind A/B tests here in the forum to see if we all pick the same favorites or what kind of diversity there will be.  Should be great fun! Steve

Title: Re: High Fidelity Sound Labs! Post by Stefan on 01/05/21 at 06:04:23 Great idea !

Title: Re: High Fidelity Sound Labs! Post by Steve Deckert on 01/08/21 at 05:22:04 INFORMATION BELOW ABOUT THE POLL AT THE TOP OF THIS THEAD So as I prepare the first A/B test, I've been working with Ed Pong of UltraAnalogue Recordings because in my experience he makes the highest resolution, most pure live two track recordings on the planet.  (I'm pretty sure he and I would both love it if I were wrong because you can't have enough of this kind of recording quality / musicianship / acoustics on the planet.). I'm pretty sure I'm right though. Anyway, the ultimate acid test for the High Fidelity Sound Labs process would naturally be one of Ed's recordings, because if you can take something that is virtually perfect and make it better or different without ruining it, well, trust me, that would be the ultimate achievement.   Remember the process is designed to create audiophile versions of existing masters that for whatever reason sound congested, dry, perhaps a little flat, or cold, or hard. Hard is the worse one.  Basically, designed to make less than perfect recordings sound better. So that obviously leads one to wonder what will happen if it's applied to recordings that don't need any help, or are otherwise unimproveable? I realized many years ago during the Spring Street Studio years that when it comes to recordings, the information is in there. The recording is like a code that contains the information, and your playback system is like the decoder. It's all about phase angles across the frequency band at every stage of the chain that both create the code and solve the code.  So it is usually possible to extract good sound from seemingly hopeless recordings if you have the tools to make the adjustments. So the first attempt at creating this acid A/B test basically failed.  It failed because Ed's tape didn't sound right.  It sounded hard.  Dimensionality was congested and compressed, the Piano, stage left, was struggling and didn't sound anything like Ed's actual piano.  Yet, you couldn't actually find anything wrong with it.  How many times has that happened to you? Nevertheless, desperate to hear the damn tape sound good on that particular night, I decided to apply the process to it and monitor it live which I did.  That made it sound good which was a real achievement, at least to me, even though I traded some top end deliberately out of desperation, to the average listener it would probably sound better. I have since found the cause of the less than perfect sound from the tape, and believe it to have been a cable connection on the left channel on the particular night. So to let you experience in real time the testing of this process with the final results still unknown, I though it would be fun to start with the damaged recording and my attempt to fix it.  Sample A and Sample B respectably.  Then we'll get to the real stuff.  So in the next post I will set up a poll where you can listen to both Sample A and B on headphones or your stereo and vote on which one you like better overall. There are two samples: One is the Direct Dump From Tape 24/96 wav format that I suspect was crippled by a cable. The other was the High Fidelity Sound Labs process inserted between the tape and digital recorder in an attempt to fix the sound. 24/96 wav format. Here are the links to the files: SAMPLE A - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xKFXm6YEDORKF4hOdt0ib-WaV2Eikvka/view?usp=sharing SAMPLE B - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xmaFKr0tZ87ZWRt5CnElAx2nT8UNncTg/view?usp=sharing Listen to these both and then vote in the pole.  A great way to do it is to load each into an audio player on the computer so you can hit play on one then hit pause... hit play on the other then hit pause... and go back and forth as many times as you want to do direct A/B comparisons measure by measure. I am intersted in peoples results on all types of playback systems, lo-fi, mid-fi, hi-fi and on both headphones and speakers. Thanks your participation is appreciated.  This test will be repeated once we get sample A sounding so good it would be stupid to mess with it.  Of course that is all on the playback side.  Tonight I am listening to it without the cable issue and having a hard time staying in my body. Steve

Title: Re: High Fidelity Sound Labs! Post by Jeff of Arabica on 01/08/21 at 06:05:42 Uh oh....  did you cut open the bag? Quote: This test will be repeated once we get sample A sounding so good it would be stupid to mess with it.

Title: Re: High Fidelity Sound Labs! Post by Steve Deckert on 01/10/21 at 03:45:21 Thank you to the guest who voted.  We now have one vote for Sample B.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by JBzen on 01/10/21 at 12:07:09 I was waiting for the B-C comparison.  Seems the A-B was skewed. John

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by GroovySauce on 01/10/21 at 14:32:42 On my 8 year old laptop playing through the speakers,. I played Sample B first which was fine. Then when Sample A hit I wanted to turn it off, which I did. I was browsing the internet so wasn't really listening. Still browsing the internet, I Airplayed to a BlueSound Node 2i which is hooked up to my main system. Sample B first, which was again pleasant. Sample A I looked up and thought sounds like a hot radio edit. The violin really just jumped out screeching. I listened to the entire Sample A without turning it off. So on Lo-Fi and Mid-Fi I would say Sample B wins for enjoy-ability.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Donnie on 01/10/21 at 21:33:55 Well they sure did sound different. I won't say what my vote was as to not sully the results.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Jeff of Arabica on 01/10/21 at 23:59:20 Steve, Would you like commentary in this thread or would you prefer us to vote and hold off until you close the poll?

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by HockessinKid on 01/11/21 at 00:30:45 Very distinct differences, even on my desktop Monsoon speakers played through my Realtek sound card. HK

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Steve Deckert on 01/11/21 at 03:11:04 I don't think anyone is going to be swayed by commentary enough to actually pick a sample they don't personally like so go ahead and comment all you want.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Brian on 01/11/21 at 04:29:29 For me the sample B piano had a more true to piano tone. The samples were too big for my computer connection so that the sound was intermittent as the machine kept rebuffering. This made it difficult to evaluate them, but I preferred B. Brian

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by alper_yilmaz on 01/11/21 at 08:25:01 Sample A sounds a bit more upper-mid heavy to me.  It is more in your face.  Sample B sounds more airy and more even in the mid register in comparison to Sample A.  It gave me the impression that the recording of Sample B included both close mic'ing and ambient mic'ing, and the latter used for a natural reverb.  The recording in Sample A is as if it was recorded only with ambient mic'ing and I do not hear much body in the instruments. I am not sure if the volumes of the two samples were matched, Sample B sounds a tad louder to my ears.  Also, I feel like Sample B has a tad more room reverb. Between the two I prefer Sample B.  But please note that this is through my  iPhone in-ears via an iMac.  For a more detailed analysis, I have to listen to it on my UFO25! Cheers, Alper

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by SteveLuck on 01/11/21 at 10:08:43 Listening on Tiny radials I built, bluetooth from PC to Amp - Sample A just sounds quite sharp the violin just dominates what should be a duet.  Sample B sounds a bit rounded off but it's the one I'd choose to listen to.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Archie on 01/11/21 at 17:56:34 Listening on my computer -- nothing fancy.  I was prepared to hate A but it's the one I prefer.  B sounds muted, under water and not as "live."

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by dank on 01/11/21 at 21:39:51 I'm going with B I thought the violin and piano sounded better together in B.  More complementary in B.  Like they were fighting each other a little in A. I felt like I'd get tired of A quite fast, but could listen to B all day.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Lon on 01/11/21 at 21:57:06 Within three seconds I knew I would prefer Sample B. Compared on Apple MacBook laptop speakers.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by ArtMan on 01/12/21 at 01:45:28 While listening on crappy headphones, listening through my computer, sample B had less edgy highs than A but the primary thing I noticed was the piano had more body and weight compared to sample A. Both instruments sounded more real and balanced.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Doug on 01/12/21 at 02:45:32 Via current generation ipad and hifiman 400’s, version A sounds like a real violin and piano in the room.  Nice dynamics.  Excellent rendering of details, especially from the violin. Version B sounds as if both instruments are in a closet with a heavy blanket covering the door.  Dynamics are non-existant.  The sound is completely lifeless.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Doug on 01/12/21 at 03:01:22 Just had the wife listen.....she said version A perfectly depicts a freshly rosined bow crunching on the strings.  She also commented on the massive difference in dynamic range between the two versions, much preferring the wide dynamic range of A.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Jeff of Arabica on 01/12/21 at 05:38:23 I guess I have a reference point that is rather unique, having been part of the audience at Ed Pong's concert venue during a live performance and recording of a world-class pianist and cellist.     I chose A because it brought me right back to the concert that evening. The instruments in A sounded real, and true to life as though I was in the room with them again.   Listening preferences being subjective, I could understand why some would choose B, but A sounded superior on my system knowing what piano and strings sound like at Ed's place. Like a couple others have noted, I too felt as though B was a bit rolled off, our "round."  It seemed as though there was a bit of Hall effect, ever so slightly, in the B recording.  Anyway, it was a fun exercise and I'm curious to learn more about each file.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by armstdav on 01/12/21 at 17:13:05 I preferred A, both on my laptop speakers and through headphones. This will be an interesting referendum on the listening preferences of those who hang out here, and may provide some insight as to why they prefer Decware gear.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Dana on 01/12/21 at 17:32:11 Sample A seems to be lacking something on my system.  The very first note where the second tone adds a fullness to the sound is so much more pleasing on Sample B. Sample B gets my vote. I downloaded the files used Foobar to UNP into my Allo Piano PI dac Played back on my second system.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by JohnnyB on 01/12/21 at 21:09:55 HP Desktop > USB Out > Grant Fidelity Tube DAC > Virtue Audio Sensation > EB Acoustic EB 1's.  Not quite ultimate Hi-Fi but pretty good for my WAH setup.  Definitely "B", it seems to have more depth to it and the back ground instruments have more detail and air.  You can really hear what's going on in the entire piece not just the up front violin.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by dank on 01/13/21 at 23:55:43 Interesting, that in just this little group there are so many that REALLY like B and so many others that REALLY like A.  Hard to build something that people like when people's tasted are so different. Dan

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Steve Deckert on 01/14/21 at 01:56:52 Dank, time will tell. This particular test is rather unique. For example, we already know that sample A is closest to the actual recording and sample B was an attempt to fix it. It was later discovered that sample A sounded crippled on the left channel that is dominated by the piano.  It was due to a bad cable during the transfer from tape to digital. This made the recording (sample A) sound colder and artificially feature the violin. Since sample B used sample A it too is flawed. I think that is what makes this so interesting at this particular stage of the game. As for actual dynamics, both files are identical, scoring a (~12) on Roon's dynamic range analyzer.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Doug on 01/14/21 at 02:04:10 ......wondering how many of us realize the high level of abrasiveness inherent in violin playing.  Having lived 30 of my 62 years with two budding violinists—violinists that ultimately majored in violin performance at university—I can confirm that even the sweetest most tender violin playing is grating on listeners, especially when in close proximity to the player.   In the case of our poll music, the short excerpt chosen by Steve is from Tchaikovsky’s violin concerto in D, and it was written to be played extremely aggressively, with what many consider to be harsh bowing, as if the violin is being attacked by the bow.  We’re talking heavy coarse violent bowing such that the solo violinist dominates the entire orchestra. Would this information move anyone’s vote from B to A?   Not lobbying for A.....just curious.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Archie on 01/14/21 at 17:31:33 Doug, I think you nailed it for me.  What attracted me to A was the rawness of the sound.  I didn't care for the "eased edges" of B.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Steve Deckert on 01/15/21 at 18:03:32 Here are the votes so far ...

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Archie on 01/15/21 at 18:19:58 You missed my vote for A.  I need to pump up the minority!   :)

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Geno on 01/15/21 at 20:09:24 I preferred A.   B sounds just a bit muffled to me.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Steve Deckert on 01/15/21 at 23:19:24 Your votes don't count unless you actually vote.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Archie on 01/15/21 at 23:32:17 That's what happens when you don't read the top of a thread!   :-[

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Brian on 01/16/21 at 06:45:14 I wonder if those of us who are disagreeing on the A or B choice actually have similar taste, but are hearing the samples differently because of different computer sound cards and other components. Brian

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by JBzen on 01/16/21 at 11:06:03 In my case, I listened with a 'middle of the road' set of cans plugged into a Samsung phone. A sounded lifelessly thin while B sounded full and vibrant. After reading some of the comments on this thread, it seems the details can also shine with A and become bloated with B  system dependant. Somehow I can picture it! John

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Donnie on 01/16/21 at 13:22:46 Brian wrote on 01/16/21 at 06:45:14: I wonder if those of us who are disagreeing on the A or B choice actually have similar taste, but are hearing the samples differently because of different computer sound cards and other components. Brian Well I listened through my normal stereo setup, no sound cards in my chain. Computer, Denafrips Ares II, Torii III, my open baffles.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Ed Pong on 01/17/21 at 20:56:33 This isn't really about these 2 digital Samples, but a fantastic concert that was streamed yesterday by violinist Alena Baeva in Paris, playing the same Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto (in these 2 Samples...) Of course, only YouTube sound, but a great performance of a great piece of music! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSPbD_BocsE&t=423s Enjoy Ed

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Mike_L on 01/18/21 at 20:22:26 @Ed: Just wanted to tell you that I thoroughly enjoyed the DSD128 digital download of the Cello Suite played by Sietse-Jan Weijenberg. I don't have the tape or tape equipment to compare but I can say that the listening experience of playing that file through the ZDSD > SE84UFO25 > '78 Khorns is better, with greater dynamics and presence than my best SACD played through an Oppo 105 to the same amp and Khorns. It's not quite apples to apples but there it is and that brings me to Steve's samples which are driving me nuts. Here's why: 1. Played A and B on ZDSD > SE84UFO25 > '78 Khorns and chose B. I then voted for B as a guest (too lazy to log in). 2. Played A and B on ZDSD > SE84UFO2   >  Lii Audio Crystal 10s and chose B. 3. Played A and B on PC > Klipsch THX computer speakers and chose A. In no way am I inferring that B sounds better on a "better" system than sample A, just that there are a lot of variables at play and on my stuff B gets the nod. BTW, I only voted once. Mike_L

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Ed Pong on 01/18/21 at 21:17:05 Mike, Thanks for your having a listen & kind words! I'm very happy that DSD128 downloaded sounded better than your best SACD..! I had a friend with some Khorns & they sounded great with the right amps. Congrats on a great system! On Steve's sample A&B, if I'm reading this thread right, sample A is the file which has a problem with an interconnect... so I think we need to wait till Steve puts up the proper sample A, then his mastering of this A to see the real effects. Personally, A sounded a bit bright & thin at times, with more high frequency energy but "closer" to what it should be, but it was still far from my digital download sound. B sounded a bit soft & rolled off, the brightness was gone & likely some may prefer that sound... it's easier to listen to. Ed

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by deucekazoo on 01/18/21 at 21:38:37 Nothing special, just a laptop with Sennheiser HD580 headphones. I preferred A B sounded hollow, louder, rolled off.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Steve Deckert on 01/19/21 at 04:28:10 NEW SAMPLES! Since Ed was kind enough to send me a 24/192 file of Sample A made from the actual master tape -- that will be our New Sample A. The process I use contains two basic areas; 1) Basic Tone Repair which leaves everything original but with more tone and does it without EQ.  2) Manipulation using four triodes which changes textures, dimension, feel.  This is obviously the interesting part of the process and would be the only part applicable to such a perfect recording.   Since there is no need for tone repair on Sample A that part of the process was simply skipped again. To really wrap your head around what this process can do, compare each sample at 1:40 back to back a few times and you will see that the bowing is changed.  Of course that's impossible, yet there it is. Actually I don't know if 'bowing' the right term, but it actually sounds like someone else is playing it. I wouldn't say that the New Sample B is any kind of an improvement over the New Sample A, it only demonstrates it's ability to change something. And in fairness, the High Fidelity Sound Lab process would never have been conceived if all music on the planet sounded as good as Ed's recordings, and we already know that really virtually none ARE better. We'll get into more samples as this goes on, samples that do need help, or sound better completely rearranged. The New Sample A and Sample B are uploaded to the same folder as before. THE OLD POLL was 15 for sample B and 11 for sample A.  I have cleared all the volts so please vote again using the new samples! Thanks, Steve NEW SAMPLE A https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YvBMRZzYhGQdNc0X80JdS301-_EZTTGh/view?usp=sharing NEW SAMPLE B https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bGstzymk-QVkde4L5GW4JNuqOQ48Oz4-/view?usp=sharing

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Archie on 01/19/21 at 07:05:29 This confirms for me my preference for A.  The harshness is gone.  B still sounds muted.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Ed Pong on 01/19/21 at 13:51:12 Steve, Thanks for these new Samples! Definitely fun stuff you're doing! Without being specific, my sense is, B sounds like you're "looking" at a beautiful scene, but the window is covered with a slight mist... A sounds like there is no glass in the window... I think this demonstrates just how much any component, wire, tube, etc can change the sound... Everything has an effect... just what is it. I'm sure what you've come up with is a fantastic way to have some control over the sound. It confirms how important the recording & playback sound path is... A good example is your first Sample A. It came from this tape, but just an interconnect was off & it changed the sound completely. I'm interested to hear it's effects on a bright nasty sounding digital recording... Ed

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by DPC on 01/19/21 at 14:26:35 Listened to the new samples on my Rachel and RL3's, no cans. Sample A sounded harsh and without depth. Sample B Was warmer with better definition. Obviously I voted for B

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Lon on 01/19/21 at 14:40:49 A sounds better than it did. I still prefer B. On my MacBook via its speakers.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by dvl on 01/19/21 at 14:42:13 Now we are getting somewhere! i did not vote on the first samples, both sounded wrong to me. The first one sounded digital in all the offensive ways digital can sound, sharp, thin, manufactured. The second one i could listen to, but it sounded not only muted as others have said, but like something was missing. i find the new samples revealing. If all digital sounded as good as sample A i would listen to a lot more digital music! It is clear without being harsh or too sharp, not thin at all, great separation, a really enjoyable digital track! Listening to sample B really does reveal how one can manipulate the sound. In some places it sounds like a different recording, in other places not quite the same separation, softer. Looking forward to more of these comparisons, and hearing what magic Steve can perform on a typical digital file that needs real help! David

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Doug on 01/19/21 at 16:50:57 “Remember the process is designed to create audiophile versions of existing masters that for whatever reason sound congested, dry, perhaps a little flat, or cold, or hard. Hard is the worse one.  Basically, designed to make less than perfect recordings sound better. So that obviously leads one to wonder what will happen if it's applied to recordings that don't need any help, or are otherwise unimproveable?”  SD This unbelievably good recording sounds like a Stradivarius and a small Steinway being played by highly skilled artists, which is exactly what it is.  Steve, you are indeed a brave man to start with such an outstanding recording.  I, too, am looking forward to hearing the results of your process  on some dry, flat, cold, hard recordings.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Geno on 01/19/21 at 17:17:54 Aren't we supposed to be able to vote again on the new samples? I have not been able to do so.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Lon on 01/19/21 at 17:29:17 Me either. But my vote hasn't changed. . . . It might if I could listen to it on my main system but that's not possible for me.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Dana on 01/19/21 at 19:08:04 My vote has changed.   Sample B  download picked up a noticeable background hum that isn't present on Sample A and I don't remember hearing it  on the original Samples. Sample A has a lot less what I'll call "glare" than it did before.  Both the piano and the violin seem a lot more forward than in Sample B.  What I can't tell is they are moved back or just the background moved forward.( which is what I suspect since the volume levels are different) Sample B was like I was listening from further back instead of the first row.  Sample A sounds more dynamic to .  The loud parts are much more prominent than in Sample B. I did hear things ins Sample B, background tones that I had to go back to Sample A to confirm they really were there.  Overtones to me are much better in Sample B.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Steve Deckert on 01/20/21 at 02:34:21 Whoops, I knew I wouldn't get that right the first time...  I have removed all the past votes prior to yesterday so those who voted before should be able to vote now.  I tried to do that yesterday but failed. Steve

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by JBzen on 01/20/21 at 10:04:31 Droid and cans again. A seemed to be crisp and tactical. B missing some of that crispness but gaining decay in harmonics. It was a toss up for me and took a day to decide after listing to all four samples again, but change my vote to A. John

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Ed Pong on 01/21/21 at 00:03:36 I find it very interesting reading all the comments on the violin sounds in these samples. One thing, most audiophiles likely don’t realize is every violin has very different sound characteristics which also varies with each violinist. In fact, even a piano will “sound” very different depending on the pianist. (I’ve heard Steve say before, “I didn’t recognize that piano as the piano in another tape…” Sound production on a piano is completely dependent on the artist’s touch, speed of attack and weight. With violins, the differences are even greater. What’s most important is how is that violin setup? Is the violinist a soloist who plays concertos in large halls? If so, they want a very bright powerful sound which can project to the back of the hall. A sweet pleasant violin sound is not the most powerful and will not project. For the violinist, something pleasing to their ears is not strong enough in a large hall. Very often a bright harsh sound, in their ears, sounds perfect in the concert and projects to the back of the hall. So sometimes, when you hear a hard bright sound, it maybe true! (But that kind of bright, will not bother you like a thin/bright digital sound.) Also violins have enormous dynamics which you will not hear on most recordings... Since I record in a relatively small space (my pool is 40’x50’ with 25’ ceiling at one end, tapering to about 15’ at the end) I must be very sensitive to the power of that violin and what overtones are being produced. Most audiophiles want to hear a warm sweet violin sound, which is a sensitive balance between direct and reflected sound (reverb). In these 2 samples of the Tchaikovsky Concerto, the violin is a 1729 Stradivari. Steve also has the tape of Alena Baeva playing the Mendelssohn Concerto on a 1738 Guarneri del Gesu. These are the two greatest violin makers of all time. These 2 violins have very different sound characteristics & I will let Steve talk about the differences he heard on these 2 tapes… Ed

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by armstdav on 01/21/21 at 04:55:14 I preferred A in both iterations, although I thought the differences were smaller in the second set. With the second pair I thought B sounded like the usual compressed recordings we get these days, nothing objectionable but made to sound good on crappy earbuds connected to an iPhone. Sample A sounded like an unrestrained good-as-I-could-make-it recording where if it didn't sound good you need to upgrade your system.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by JBzen on 01/22/21 at 12:41:03 So Ed, Let say my wife and I were seated in the middle of your pool enjoying a glass of wine after a fine prime rib dinner while listening to you performing from the shallow end. Would it sound like B? Now at the appropriate time with my nod, you come to serenade us. Would we hear A? John

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Ed Pong on 01/22/21 at 14:30:39 Good Morning John, Very good question! First of all, after a prime rib dinner & wine, I think you’d be hearing Sample C – ready for a nap! On my system, when I play the tape at the “correct” volume, the sound stage is like I’m sitting in row D or E in a large concert hall. If I turn the volume down 4-5dB, the whole sound stage moves back in the listening room & it now sounds like I’m in row T in the large hall. However, the sound character does not change, everything is just less distinct. However, in my actual room, since it is only 50’ long, the sound is pretty much the same everywhere except at the extreme front or back. Our ears “hear” the sound very differently from the microphones. A 1 foot difference in the mic placement produces a huge effect. The other thing in a live concert is the visual overtakes the auditory & many “sounds” are not “heard”. Maybe Jeff can chime in on this as he was at one of Narek’s concerts. I listened to the samples again & my sense is B is missing a lot of mid to high frequency information, so my answer is NO to your question. (At the middle of my room & the front, it sounds almost exactly the same, in terms of definition of timbres…even at the very back, it does not lose definition or get foggy) I’m puzzled by comments where one hears more “harmonics” in B…. I hear a haze or fog over the whole sound, compared to A…. but then, of course I’m biased! Ha! John, you have an open invitation to come hear a concert & recording to see/hear for yourself. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by the live & recorded sound... I’m sure Steve’s system will work great on overly bright digital recordings! Bravo Steve! Ed

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Jeff of Arabica on 01/23/21 at 07:53:15 Ed, I would be more than happy to chime in.  Life has been insane on my end these past TWO years, but man...  that trip to Toronto to come see Narek at your concert/recording venue was a trip never to be forgotten!  I will make it back to your neck of the woods some day.  It is a music lover's AND audiophile's Mecca! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I agree with everything that Ed wrote in his last post because it aligns perfectly with my personal experience witnessing the live concert my wife and I attended in May 2018 performed by Narek Hakhnazaryan and Ben Smith.  This was no ordinary experience.  Ed invited me to his place a day prior to the concert to tour his recording studio and listening room.  I can honestly say that Ed reset my reference for what I consider "no compromise."  The extremes that Ed and Tony Ma go to in order to capture the closest thing humanly possible to "LIVE" is beyond compare.  Of course it is hard to appreciate what I am saying because so many claim other worldly things these days, but Ed Pong has achieved something that I personally can attest to as being like nothing else.   That "preview" day at Ed's place was eye opening.  I saw what was a seemingly endless supply of custom gear that he and Tony designed or modified as part of the recording or playback systems responsible for the UltraAnalogue tape products.  I lost count of how many vintage Western Digital 300B tubes Ed had in his system! I could go on and on about the recording chain in place from the mic's to the tape recorder but I could never do it justice.   His pool room (concert venue) was something to marvel.  Upon first glance I thought, how can this room sound good?  Lots of hard surfaces and glass.  The ceiling is really tall at the stage area and it tapers down toward the back of the venue.  Once I heard the performance, the venue disappeared.   I got to meet Narek and Ben that day and was treated to a sneak preview as they were rehearsing.  Ed and I moved around the venue to allow me to pick my seats for the concert the next day.  This was amazing because I literally heard how the musicians sounded at every seating area.  First off, there was NO bad seat.  Like Ed mentioned, there were distinct differences from the front row compared to the last row, but I would have had an equally amazing time in any of the available seats.  There were three areas that made my Top list, but it felt like splitting hairs.  The acoustics in that room just work.   Long story short, the concert was phenomenal! The venue is small so you can hear absolutely everything human and instrumental.  It was intimate and raw with no adulteration.  And guess what, Ed sent me the three master tapes that I purchased from that very concert I attended and his methodology and equipment array created the most true-to-life, realistic reproduction of a concert I have ever experienced.  This was a unique and rare opportunity I understand.  But having been at a concert at Ed's place, and now owning the live recordings of that concert on open reel, the level and volume of information captured and then presented on these UltraAnalogue tapes is astonishing.  He pushes the envelope when it comes to recording levels but this is intentional.  He wants to elevate the low level details so they can be heard in the recording and the only way to do that is to raise the level of the entire recording.  It is in this low level detail that the magic resides and Ed has an uncanny ability to recreate a live experience by revealing this information in his tapes.  This is a product of his custom ALL analogue recording equipment and process, mic positioning, venue, and the work of several experienced and talented professionals who help capture that live concert and recreate it on tape.   What you hear in these UltraAnalogue hi-res digital recordings and open reel tapes is what you would hear if you were sitting in any one of the seats at the UltraAnalogue concert venue.  My wife and I had an amazing time.  Ed and his wife Amy were the most gracious hosts and I look forward to seeing them both again at another UA concert in the future.   Cheers, Jeff

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by JBzen on 01/23/21 at 10:21:01 Hi Ed, Sure! that nod would have prompted you to walk over and wake up that old fart! I totally get it with sensory overload and live performances. The last time there was a violinist playing at the dinner table was my youngest's wedding. It actually became annoying after a while because he moved from table to table amongst all. The sound went between mute and sharp randomly.   Don't be too puzzled. Remember I am listening to the samples with big box store headphones tethered to my cell phone. SOL EX is the brand that certainly was engineered to play well with the popular compressed music out there. Would love to check out your place as well as Steves! Maybe this spring after the shot! Best John

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Nick324 on 01/23/21 at 11:52:56 1/23/21. I voted sample B after the first 2 listening sessions but after 2 more sessions I find myself changing my mind and preferring sample A. There is a hiss that is persistent in sample B that after some extra time listening to both I find aggravating.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Ed Pong on 01/23/21 at 13:44:03 Hi Jeff, Thanks so much for telling us the sound you heard that day! I know you've been busy with expansion & hope this pandemic hasn't been too tough on you. Thank you for your most kind words! I'm just having some fun! It's hard to believe that was almost 3 yrs ago. Narek's been back twice since & each time has been a revelation of both music & his talent. Many major cello sonatas & some great show pieces - as only he can play them! I've found 2 wonderful new musicians, violinist Alena Baeva & pianist Vadym Kholodenko. Alena won the Wieniawski Comp at 16 and Vadym won the Van Cliburn 7 yrs ago. Amy & I even went to their wedding in Luxembourg 2 yrs ago! Unfortunately, I had to cancel a piano trio concert last Nov 15 due to the pandemic... Alena, Narek & Vadym - the dream trio! I'm trying to reschedule this hopefully for this November. If you can come to this, it will be fantastic. I'm on a mission to record the Beethoven Piano Trios, like the EMI set with Zukerman, du Pre & Barenboim. The Archduke will be on this 1st concert. Here is a live stream just recorded & posted last week of Alena playing the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto in Paris... unbelievable performance... considering she's expecting in February! (music starts around 12:00) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSPbD_BocsE&t=916s Cheers Ed

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Steve Deckert on 01/25/21 at 01:15:37 Here are the results of the second a/b test: For the final test, I have created another Sample B. This time I used the tape Ed sent to me instead of the digital file and took the time to use all silver cables and replaced one of the tubes. There is no noise, hiss or hum in this recording that wasn't on the original so far as I can tell. That comes from both listening to it, and looking at the waveform under magnification. While the realness and boldness of the tape comes off almost hard on anything but stellar playback gear, this last Sample B is designed to demonstrate the effect of the process as good as I can make it short of getting out the all tube playback deck. That said, the target recordings for this are not perfect recordings from Ed, but primarily digital masters that could benefit from a slight untwisting which is what this process can easily do. The beauty of using Ed's sample is that it lets you actually hear the mellowing effect of the process itself, whereas with lesser recordings that seem to need help it would be more difficult. Hopefully this one will be a little more transparent. It's now pretty easy to hear the truck drive by outside on the highway not that far from the venue right in the middle of the recording. Here is a link to the samples:  https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/18Eg5hAy-PX5X0SWgDtSxbHxJpnYkRo3p?usp=sharing The file is called "LastsampleB.wav" I have cleared the votes off again, so everyone can vote fresh for a third and final time. Steve

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Steve Deckert on 01/25/21 at 01:20:53 Also, just a note that the player that pops up on Google when you click on the files is pretty useless sounding. Definitely make sure you download the files to your computer and then use your player to hear the files.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by JBzen on 01/25/21 at 14:11:24 Android with SOL EX cans downloaded file. Last Sample B compared to New Sample A. LSB is fuller leaning to bloat. Lower piano octave gives a sense of realism. Breaths sounds thru the nose. NSA is leaner. Busy passages seem clearer. Breaths sounds thru teeth. Not sure how a truck sound is distinguished.  Just sounded like a swish - like tires on wet pavement being picked up through an open window. For some reason I did not download the first set of samples for these polls but did so for the last two! LSB gets my vote of all. My room is in disarray right now and streamer on a different system. My preference could change listening in the Chariot. It was that close! John

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Lon on 01/25/21 at 14:17:23 I'm still in the "B" camp, listening all three times through my MacBook speakers, no EQ.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Ed Pong on 01/25/21 at 15:42:26 Fun stuff Steve! My sense is your B is better than before... however, the pulse, rhythm & drive of the music is still more realistic in A. The sound is much "quicker" & the notes literally fly off the strings in A (as in real life) In B, the sound is slower, more bloated, maybe warmer, more rounded & some or many may prefer that sound... But A is still closer to the actual live sound...(one has to actually hear it live to understand what live really sounds like...) my 2c I think your system will make harsh unlistenable recordings sound much better! Ed

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Doug on 01/25/21 at 19:00:48 For 62 years we have had pianos in our home—various grands and uprights.  I’ve been a piano tuner for more than 25 years now.  My late mother was a piano performance major.  My brother is a professional pianist and had a Steinway model D in his studio for about 10 years; I tuned that piano and all three of my children played on it.  I’ve tuned many Steiways over the years.  My son was a piano performance major.  My two daughters were both violin performance majors, and though neither plays a strad valued at millions of dollars, I spent $7,000 to $8,000 on each of their more recent violins.  One is a 150 year old german instrument and the other is a remarkable sounding violin made by a current polish luthier.  I doubt a professional would choose either violin, but they are very nice instruments. The closest I’ve ever been to an old classic is approximately 6 feet; Midori gave a master class at William Jewell College approximately 10 years ago; my wife, our daughter, and I were in the front row of a very small recital hall within two steps of Midori and the student she was coaching.  If I recall correctly, the class ran about 90 minutes.   I believe she was playing a guarneri.  That was an incredibly enjoyable event! Besides the above mentioned up close and personal exposure to violins and pianos, my wife and I have attended hundreds of concerts over the past forty years.  We are fortunate to have a world class orchestra in Kansas City, along with a universe class chamber music organization that has consistently brought in the biggest names in chamber music for 45 years. Based on what I know about the sound of violins and pianos, I must stick with version A.  The violin and piano on A simply sound much closer to real than Version B, which to me seems extremely muffled and lifeless. Having an all digital system, I do look forward to hearing what Steve’s new process can do with a nasty sounding digital mess of a recording!

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Dana on 01/25/21 at 21:50:57 New Sample B is really good.   I couldn't even get thru Sample A after hearing it first. By far the biggest difference to my ears.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Donnie on 01/25/21 at 22:46:04 This time I liked sample A better. Sample B sounded muted a bit.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by armstdav on 01/26/21 at 02:19:16 I preferred A all 3 times now. LastsampleB is better than NewsampleB, but A still wins. I think LsB is how people *wish* a violin sounded, but I believe most who've heard a violin played live by an accomplished player will say A sounds more like a real violin in a real room. That said, many may like LsB, because we don't always prefer what may be more real. LsB takes just a bit of the leading edge off, which may be just the ticket on a harsh recording or a sibilant system. I'm excited to see what HFSL can do for lousy recordings, especially if it can do it in real time.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Steve Deckert on 01/29/21 at 17:13:08 Right now the votes are 5 to 4.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Fraubin001 on 08/30/21 at 21:46:41 I find sample 1 is very impressive at first, but I have never heard a violin nor a piano sounding razor sharp like this in the real life. Sample B to me is more soothing and has a more natural sound quality to it.

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by Tony on 08/31/21 at 03:12:08 I listened directly from the computer using good headphones.  I found A to be more lively, bright and it held my attention.  I liked B, finding it softer, more veiled, perhaps - a little like the SF fog, less edge, more softness.   In the end, I voted for A

Title: Re: Which of these two samples sounds best? Post by EdwardT on 08/31/21 at 17:26:12 I like newsampleA as a more realistic sound, you can hear the hammers in the piano and the zing of the resin on the bow. That is a magnificent fiddle played by a master. Last sample B sounded like some eq had been added, you could definitely listen to that longer but the transient response seemed like it had been dulled a tiny bit. That said, the last B sample did place the piano better in the soundstage. In last sample A I thought I could hear more of the room. iPad with Sony 7506 headphones.

Forums » Powered by YaBB 2.2.2! YaBB © 2000-2008. All Rights Reserved.