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AUDIO FORUMS >> General Discussion and Support >> New Lii Driver?
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Message started by Eldergod on 12/28/20 at 13:27:59

Title: New Lii Driver?
Post by Eldergod on 12/28/20 at 13:27:59

Someone may have mentioned it already, but have you all seen the new Lii Audio F-18....? Thoughts?

https://www.lii-audio.com/product/one-pair-18-inch-full-range-speakers-superb-scale-soundstage-with-new-imaging-f-18/

Title: Re: New Lii Driver?
Post by Rivieraranch on 12/28/20 at 15:18:24

Irrepressible 'Lil Audio. These are only 97 db efficient. What's next, a 24"?There has to be a limit.

Title: Re: New Lii Driver?
Post by canonken on 12/28/20 at 15:28:49

Whoa! I'd love to hear that (or at least read some reviews). I am curious if from an 'audiophile' point of view what might get lost in such a big full-range driver.

If it works, thought, and works well - that could be really, really interesting.

Is this intended to be an open-back driver? Could you even imagine what a build with these would look like with a back-loaded horn!?

Title: Re: New Lii Driver?
Post by SteveB on 12/28/20 at 15:38:38

Better tell Steve he's going to need a bigger baffle!

Title: Re: New Lii Driver?
Post by lazb on 12/28/20 at 17:54:15

Wonder how these would work in Steve's Imperial cabinets? or/ perhaps, the SO ones?

Title: Re: New Lii Driver?
Post by Archie on 12/28/20 at 18:11:28

I've got the full size baffles and the 18s would fit well in them. Maybe equivalent to the 15s in the Med baffles?

Title: Re: New Lii Driver?
Post by Archie on 12/28/20 at 18:41:20

I was looking at the curves and specs for the F18s, F15s, CR10s and the Silver10s. Can anyone who knows how these curves work care to comment on how these all might compare in performance? Somehow the 15s look better than the 18s except for the low end. The 18s look like the enhance the mids/highs. But honestly, I don't know what I'm talking about. :P

It's be fun to try the F18s but not if they aren't better than the F15s.

Title: Re: New Lii Driver?
Post by Donnie on 12/28/20 at 19:05:19

The F15's graph looks to be smoother, the 18 looks peaky.

The QTS on the 18 is a lot higher, somewhat more suited for an open baffle or one huge box.

I'm by no means an expert on this stuff, but I've slowly learned what a lot of these weird numbers mean.

I might need to read a book or something on it.

Title: Re: New Lii Driver?
Post by Archie on 12/28/20 at 19:27:24

That aligns with what I see. We need a guinea pig!

Title: Re: New Lii Driver?
Post by Steve Deckert on 12/29/20 at 03:14:08

I started testing them before the holidays and plan to resume as time allows. I got to spend a lot of time with a prototype of this driver and found it's midrange to be a lot better than the F15 but the bass in an open baffle was not as good. Highs were about the same. But that was a prototype and some significant changes were made to the production models. When I have usable information about they sound in a large open baffles I'll let you know. Perhaps sometime in January. : )

Steve

Title: Re: New Lii Driver?
Post by Eldergod on 12/29/20 at 03:30:03

I knew you’d have an inside scoop Steve, lol. Looking forward to hearing and seeing more then.

Title: Re: New Lii Driver?
Post by midside on 02/26/21 at 23:11:22

Hi All,

I would like to use a single Lii driver in an OB for an unusual purpose, and wonder if an F-15, F-18, or even a sliver 10 would be better suited. The setup will be a mid-side speaker arrangement (modeled on mid-side microphone setups). Neumann and Hauff transformers will be used to derive mid and side from stereo signals. The mid channel will be handled by a NAIM-based Avondale SS amp driving a stacked pair of Spendor BC-1 speakers. The side channel by a single Lii driver in an OB - mounted directly behind the Spendors - driven by a push-pull 2A3 amp (a heavily modded Brook 10A). Which Lii driver do you think would be best?

Title: Mid-side continued...
Post by midside on 02/27/21 at 03:27:24

I probably should have added three things: 1st that the OB will be oriented perpendicular to the stacked Spendors and function as a dipole. 2nd that the Spendors have very rich, even overripe, bass so that some leanness in that area may be a good thing from the OB. 3rd that I am looking for a large and chromatically rich sound.. I put prefer mono to stereo because I find that great imagining detracts from the aspects of music that allow me to get emotionally involved in it, but summing Stereo recordings to mono ghosts some elements and exaggerates others. I am pursuing this mid-side scheme as a compromise that I hope will allow me to get “the best” from Stereo recordings -given my idiosyncratic preferences. Also interested in the possibility of literally summing some of the best attributes of SS and tube amplification, which of course would not be possible with conventional stereo. It will be interesting to see if the different direct and reflected sources will integrate in a pleasing way, or just sound weird, but I am obviously hopeful enough that try the experiment.

Title: Re: New Lii Driver?
Post by midside on 03/05/21 at 13:14:06

Looks like this is a dead letter. Did I commit a faux pas? In any case I
ordered a pair of F18’s for my experimentation.

Title: Re: New Lii Driver?
Post by Doug on 03/05/21 at 16:26:58

Hey Midside, not sure you’ve committed a faux pas, but as a simple man, I admit to being a bit befuddled at your end game.

Mixing tubes with solid state can be very rewarding. Your Spendors have taken me back to the early eighties when I had a very musically satisfying tube/SS system that used Spendor LS3/5A’s.

Good luck with your project!

Title: Re: New Lii Driver?
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/05/21 at 17:09:05

I have spent some time with the F18's strapped into the large Zen Master Series baffles and here are my findings:

Directly compared to the F15 in the same baffle, the F15 is smoother with more bass at the 2 watt levels I usually play them at.

When you add more power, the scale and lower bass of the F18 begins to manifest nicely.

F18 has a presence peak in the upper mids compared to F15 which is flat.

My conclusion is that they like to be played loud, the room would need to be pretty dead in the midrange OR a simple filter could be applied to the F18 to smooth it out.

Since the context of my evaluation is simply to compare it directly to the F15, not to figure out what it wants to work best, I did not get involved with compensation filters.

For someone wanting the novelty of a full-range 18" speaker, these deliver the goods. Highs are not rolled, scale is large, they are fast, and efficiency is good.

Steve

Title: Re: New Lii Driver?
Post by Archie on 03/05/21 at 17:37:53

I've been waiting for some more F18 info. I have a huge room and use a ZMA. Bottom line, should I replace my F15s (big baffles) with F18s in the same baffle?

Title: Re: New Lii Driver?
Post by midside on 03/06/21 at 03:54:42

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the encouraging words. I am a little worried about the bump in the F18’s presence region that you mentioned. Do you think that peakiness will be more or less of an issue when the drivers are used to produce reflected sound (versus pointing directly at the listener? And could you suggest a filter to tame that peak?

Best, midside

Title: Re: New Lii Driver?
Post by Brian on 03/06/21 at 05:47:03

Hello, midside
No faux pas on your part.
I found your proposed speaker project interesting, but I was unable to provide any useful comment, as I am not familiar with the sound of any of Mr Lii's speakers.

Welcome to the forum.

Title: Re: New Lii Driver?
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/07/21 at 03:34:13

Quote:

Certainly if you are going to use the drivers to create a reflected sound field then the presence peak is not only desirable but essential.

Steve

Title: Re: New Lii Driver?
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/07/21 at 03:36:20

Archie,

If you play really loud, then you might like them, but at normal listening levels I think the F15 sound better - warmer, fuller.

Steve

Title: Re: New Lii Driver?
Post by Archie on 03/07/21 at 17:29:09

Exactly the kind of advice I'm looking for. While I play loud, I'd hate to have to stay there for best sound.

Title: Re: New Lii Driver?
Post by Newid91 on 03/08/21 at 03:24:44

There is a hump from 2-6Khz in my room with this driver (Lii Audio F18 in a 2 ft. circular open baffle, offset 1 inch off center). I am using miniDSP correction and a tweeter in parallel (with a capacitor, no crossover) high-passed around 6 KHz. This combination is extremely good. Soundstage and imagining are incredible. I do not notice any issues at low volume - I use a 150 W/ch class A amp, and use the miniDSP to get the bass +/- 3 dB down to 25 Hz. The bass, infact, is the selling point of this driver. It is as agile and nimble as it thumps when called for. There is just something extremely satisfying about such coherent bass in a full ranger. It takes a while to loosen up, however. It is a bit shouty for the first 100 hours. Really need to break in the surrounds and whatever coupling they use for the whizzer cone. I have not tried the F15, so I cannot comment, but I wouldn't be surprised if the F15 was better right off the box. The F-18 might need the DSP to shine, and shine it does. The sound is closest to a Magnepan 1.7i in terms of spaciousness, depth, width and height of soundstage. It is significantly better than the Maggie in imaging and in an entirely different realm in dynamics (the F18 can rock - hard). It is not even close to the Maggie's in terms of resolution, especially in crowded, complex music, but I have not found it a limitation. Rather the lack of resolution is quite enjoyable and musical in some ways (except for complex electronic music, where it just sounds like noise on the F-18). For their size, they amazingly vanish in the room in OB configuration.

Title: Re: New Lii Driver?
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/08/21 at 19:55:57

Newid91, thank you for your post! You are correct that bass from large nimble drivers like these is very satisfying. It's what hooked me on the F15.

Steve

Title: Re: New Lii Driver?
Post by midside on 03/10/21 at 20:11:53

Thanks Bris, Steve, and NewID91, I am feeling much better about my purchase of F-18’s. I’m particularly happy that the enhanced presence region will accentuate the reflected sound field I’m using them to generate. They came more quickly than I would have thought possible, but I’m afraid it will take me some time to build baffles - and even longer to get the mid-side arrangement up and running. Will report back eventually.

Best, midside

Title: Re: New Lii Driver?
Post by Newid91 on 03/13/21 at 01:11:17

Just updating my earlier note to add the bass keeps getting better and lower over time (about 180 hours now). My miniDSP settings are now out of whack and I have to do them again. Not a bad problem. With the tweeter and DSP correction, this is the most musical speaker I've ever heard. (I converted to open baffle and dipoles many years ago with magnepan. There is a grunt and strain in the sound with box speakers that are sometimes more exciting. If you know you like open baffles, these speakers are just utterly and truly joyous).

Title: Re: New Lii Driver?
Post by midside on 03/13/21 at 03:25:50

Newid91, could you say more about the tweeter you use, and the cap value? I assume it’s monopolar. Do you use just one?

Thanks, midside

Title: Re: New Lii Driver?
Post by Newid91 on 03/13/21 at 10:09:19

HiVi RT1.3WE Isodynamic Tweeter
Solen 1.5uF 400V Polypropylene Capacitor
Both from Parts Express. The tweeter + capacitor in parallel with the F18 (in my case the positive end of the tweeter connected to the capacitor that then connects to the positive end on the F-18. Negative to negative). This is a very crude hack that relies on an amp that can take variable loads - down to 2 ohms, if needed, Yamaha MX630 - and fixes the hack with DSP. There should be better ways to do it, this one work well for me.

Title: Re: New Lii Driver?
Post by esewell on 03/14/21 at 00:06:42

Newid91, would you please also compare the F18 with the magnepan's that you have (had)? Thank you.

Title: Re: New Lii Driver?
Post by Newid91 on 03/14/21 at 01:22:16

I like the DSP'd and tweetered F-18 much, much better than the Magnepan 1.7i (+ two cheapo velodyne subs crossed at 60 Hz). As I noted in a previous comment, the sound signatures are very close - natural, big soundstage, lifelike, fast bass. The F-18s are incredibly more dynamic compared to the Maggie's. I never understood what the fuss was around Cantate Domino or Felix Hell Organ Sensation on the Maggie's, but they Really come alive on the F-18, including the deep, satisfying bass (I DSP'd it flat to 25Hz). They lack the resolution of the 1.7i. The finer microdetails and spatial layering that is obvious on the Maggie's (with the right, sterile DAC), are absent on the F-18. It particularly struggles in complex passages of electronic music - sounds like a mess. But I've experienced it in very few tracks. The F-18 is ridiculously fast compared to it's size. Even without an added tweeter you can hear both the shimmer of the cymbals and the deep bass notes on Take Five - on a full ranger! From one speaker! This coherence is revolutionary. With the dynamics and coherence of F18, it feels like hearing the 1.7i with more accurate spatial localization, more accurate size, and most importantly, more correct space around the instruments. While the Maggie's are great at the wall of sound, the F-18 are able to reveal the 3 dimensional nature of instruments and singers in good recordings. I don't miss the resolution of the Maggie's anymore. I consider the F-18s significantly more musical and 4-5x the better speaker (I haven't heard anything like these). It seems to take them a while to break in, though. They were shouty and unpleasant for a while.

Title: Re: New Lii Driver?
Post by Kevin on 03/16/21 at 01:15:59

I just posted my review of the Lii F-18 on my hifi website here:

http://www.glowinthedarkaudio.com/lii-audio-f18.html

Bottom line, I'm impressed. While not perfect (what is?) these are full range speakers that can really rock, but can also present all of the delicate nuances and provide an amazingly immersive experience. I've really been enjoying them.

Title: Re: New Lii Driver?
Post by Dookie182 on 01/16/22 at 09:32:32

Hello all!
steve, newid91 and Kevin,
May i as some feedbacks/updates from your Time with the lii audio F 18 drivers?
Are you still using it? Did you optimise things?
Looking forward to your reply. I’m considering a purchase of this pair of drivers when founds allow... ;D

Title: Re: New Lii Driver?
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/17/22 at 04:42:09

This may be your lucky day because I have a pair new in the box that can be sold as demos for 10% off. So $520-$52.

I agree with Kevin's observations on the sound, however in my world we're into the 8/4 solid hardwood baffles and doing the large pair for the F15 was expensive. Making it larger for the F18 would be a serious commitment that I would seriously consider if we had the space. While we did some testing in our large 15 baffles it wouldn't let the speaker breath properly and making a larger baffle just isn't possible with all the speakers in our listening room.

If you want them call Sarah at the office and let her know I posted about a pair on sale for 10% off / $468.00 plus shipping.

Steve

Title: Re: New Lii Driver?
Post by jec3504 on 01/17/22 at 19:38:28

Kevin, Thanks for your reviews.

Title: Re: New Lii Driver?
Post by Dookie182 on 01/21/22 at 18:23:34

Thanks for the reply steve, I gladly appréciante.
The thing is that right now I don’t have the funds avaiilable.
And I havé to think it hard at least twice bevore asking to send it to france. Not sure it will be the most cost effective.
May I ask a few things I havé on my mind.
Is there a way This driver could fit into an NFX type of caninet? The idear is appealing to me but I’m not quite sure about that.
Any idear how the f15 or f18 compares to high end big coaxial drivers...
Thinking things like B&c 15cxn88 or radiant 1512b?
I get that one as to work around a crossover anyway, but could be a good project for relatively simple active bi-amping.
Maybe the lii audio f series has a upper end on coherency and simplistic set up. Kind of fearing that the f18 will requiere either a big baffle or very big box in order to give it’s best. Sus mentionned coax seems to be pretty happy with more modest cabinet size.
Thanks in advance for the feedback. Best regards.