Post by CAJames on 09/27/20 at 17:44:33
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I guess in that case one is a preamp and the other is a postamp, right?
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https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl AUDIO FORUMS >> General Discussion and Support >> With a preamp and amp, is a ZBIT still useful? https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1601151322 Message started by piezoman on 09/26/20 at 21:15:22 |
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Title: With a preamp and amp, is a ZBIT still useful? Post by piezoman on 09/26/20 at 21:15:22 When I first put my new system together here, it didn't include a preamp. I got the ZBIT to adjust gain while taking advantage of the 4.5v output from my DAC. My Taboo MK 4 order didn't include the $650 option for XLR inputs, as I didn't need them due to the ZBIT.......it turned out I received the Taboo with the Jensen transformers and XLR inputs (an unintended freebie). I had the ZBIT between the XLR outputs of the DAC and the RCA inputs of the Taboo amp.......Now I'm going to connect the DAC and amp directly via XLR connection........ And now that I do have a CSP325, is there anything that remains to be gained from retaining the ZBIT in the audio chain, or should I sell the ZBIT? Brad |
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Title: Re: With a preamp and amp, is a ZBIT still useful? Post by will on 09/26/20 at 22:29:21 I am afraid I may not quite get exactly what you are wanting to try. But it sounds like you have a ZBIT basically built into the Taboo, having transformers and balanced inputs into the Taboo? Does this transformer setup have a gain control? If not, that would present one difference from your stand alone ZBIT to consider. To me it would all be about sound, and require experimentation to see if you like the stand alone ZBIT along with the transformers in the amp, as well as having the CSP325 in the equation. But that would require some hook-up play, and would likely end up with some trade offs, taking us back to, how does each equation sound? The confusing part to me is how you plan to use your CSP325, when your plan is to connect the XLR from the DAC directly to XLR in the Taboo. This would rule out the CSP in between, right? And to put the CSP3 in there, unless you had balanced inputs and outputs in the CSP, how would you wire its RCA ins and outs between the DAC XLR and amp XLR? Adaptors? If you were to use the CSP3, and a stand alone ZBIT, it would seem you would wire the XLR from the DAC to XLR of the ZBIT....then the ZBIT's RCA outputs to the CSP3 RCA inputs....then RCA ICs between the CSP and Taboo. But then you wouldn't get to try the transformers in the Taboo with all the rest. So it might be interesting to try a pair of adaptors to convert the CSP3 RCA ICs to XLR on the Taboo side? That said, I have no experience with RCA to XLR adaptors, so can't comment on how real these possibilities are, or what they might do to your sound. But if you could find some transparent ones, though an added set of connections, a good adapter between the CSP3 ICs and Taboo balanced in might be good enough to make the possible benefits from using the Taboo transformers worth it??? I hope I got this about right. Makes my head spin. Wondering though, if a good pair of RCA to XLR adapters worked, you might like to use them all....DAC balanced to ZBIT, ZBIT RCAs to CSP3 RCAs, and CSP3 RCAs converted on the Taboo side to fit into the Taboo balanced.... Or not.....but I think this is what I would want to at least try if I had all that around, then if not good, experiment more and see what combination you like best. |
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Title: Re: With a preamp and amp, is a ZBIT still useful? Post by piezoman on 09/27/20 at 00:22:53 will, thanks for that write-up. right now, i'm thinking of the connections without a ZBIT in the chain. DAC> via XLR <AMP......to PREAMP.....to ZROCK2. so, yes, the preamp is in the middle. is this a problem? yes, i'd have to fool with adapters to jig the ZBIT back into the chain....and right now i'm wondering if putting the effort into that would be even worth it. after all, i'm thinking the CSP325 now supremely supercedes the point of a ZBIT. wouldn't the preamp permanently kick the whole point of a ZBIT off the table? |
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Title: Re: With a preamp and amp, is a ZBIT still useful? Post by Archie on 09/27/20 at 00:44:18 Quote:
Potentially. You can easily over drive the ZR2 with the CSP3. |
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Title: Re: With a preamp and amp, is a ZBIT still useful? Post by CAJames on 09/27/20 at 01:27:28 Quote:
This confuses me too. I guess to me the "logical" thing to do is: Balanced DAC -> ZBIT -> CSP3(RCA) -> Taboo(RCA). Using an adapter to run an unbalanced signal over an XLR doesn't buy you anything in the sense that it doesn't make the signal balanced, so there is nothing to unbalance with the transformer. And it costs you the impact of extra connections and cables. |
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Title: Re: With a preamp and amp, is a ZBIT still useful? Post by piezoman on 09/27/20 at 14:58:31 Thanks everyone, that was very helpful |
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Title: Re: With a preamp and amp, is a ZBIT still useful? Post by Greg C on 09/27/20 at 16:00:55 ....CAJames if a ZROCK was in the chain could you go this route... ....DAC(XLR) > ZBIT(RCA) > ZROCK(RCA) > CSP3(RCA) > TABOO or TORII JR. (in my case) ? Thanks Greg |
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Title: Re: With a preamp and amp, is a ZBIT still useful? Post by Lon on 09/27/20 at 16:48:26 That's similar to my setup which works marvelously. . . . I really enjoy having the adjustable gain possible from the ZBIT to prevent overloading the ZROCK2 and just in general give me a great flexibility in gain-riding between all the components. DAC via XLR>ZTPRE>ZBIT>ZROCK2>CSP3>Monoblocks. (CSP3, ZROCK2, SE84UFO3s all have 25th Anniversary Mods). |
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Title: Re: With a preamp and amp, is a ZBIT still useful? Post by piezoman on 09/27/20 at 16:57:43 Lon, Greg.......great advice! I'll do exactly that. Thank you all!! |
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Title: Re: With a preamp and amp, is a ZBIT still useful? Post by Archie on 09/27/20 at 16:59:19 Lon, you are using two preamps in your chain? |
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Title: Re: With a preamp and amp, is a ZBIT still useful? Post by Lon on 09/27/20 at 17:14:32 Yes. I have used both the ZTPRE and the CSP3 with the Mods separately in the main system, but get the very best sound using the chain I outlined above. It's all about manipulating the gain I think for the most part. Gain aside both the preamps have a unique something the other hasn't, and combined is even something else again, a tad better than either alone. |
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Title: Re: With a preamp and amp, is a ZBIT still useful? Post by CAJames on 09/27/20 at 17:44:33 Quote:
I guess in that case one is a preamp and the other is a postamp, right?
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Title: Re: With a preamp and amp, is a ZBIT still useful? Post by Lon on 09/27/20 at 18:26:28 I guess you could say that, yes. ;) A post amp and headphone amp. |
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Title: Re: With a preamp and amp, is a ZBIT still useful? Post by will on 09/30/20 at 23:37:17 Piezo, Finally getting a chance to post this link for a Benchmark RCA to XLR cable I stumbled across early-on in this thread. From the page: "APPLICATIONS: This special adapter cable connects unbalanced analog RCA outputs to balanced analog XLR inputs. ....... This adapter cable will work with electronically-balanced XLR inputs or with transformer-coupled XLR inputs..........This cable provides the best method for directly interfacing an unbalanced output to a balanced input. Do not confuse this cable with similar-looking RCA to XLR cables and adapters!" Having no experience with this, I personally don't know, and CAJames said an adapter wouldn't work, but according to this writeup, maybe this cable might?? Since many of us are using this transformer as much or for the sound improvements as using balanced DAC outputs, etc, if you can route the signal through it correctly it might be a beneficial addition... Not that you necessarily need another set of transformers, but ...maybe it would work toward utilizing your Taboo transformers in your long stream of pre things??? Could be worth a call or email I suppose. https://benchmarkmedia.com/products/benchmark-rca-to-xlrm-adapter-cable |
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Title: Re: With a preamp and amp, is a ZBIT still useful? Post by Showme on 10/01/20 at 01:15:56 I’m sure I’m missing something here but wouldn’t the ZTpre with the XLR’s be the best solution here? I own a CSP-325 and it is a great amp. However why give ups XLR inputs in your amp? |
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Title: Re: With a preamp and amp, is a ZBIT still useful? Post by piezoman on 10/01/20 at 02:22:21 Will, Showme.....thank you for your thoughts. Will, that cable is a thoughtful idea and thank you for putting in the effort to research. Once my system is back up & running [the Bryston BDA-3 is late to deliver], I will test the following audio subpath: 1. Leave in ZBIT and XLR-RCA connection between DAC XLR outputs and Taboo RCA inputs. 2. Remove the ZBIT and go with XLR-XLR direct between DAC outputs [male] and Taboo inputs [female] with Jensen transformers. I'll find out if there is any notable sonic differences between the two.....I suspect that since the ZBIT is a passive device, there should be minimal difference between these two configurations.....and actually the direct XLR -XLR connection will sound a bit better. |
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Title: Re: With a preamp and amp, is a ZBIT still useful? Post by will on 10/01/20 at 16:45:49 Hey Showme, I think this revolves around Piezo wanting to integrate a ZRock2 and CSP3-25 that are already purchased, and both with RCA ins and outs, while also, possibly keeping the ZBIT in the chain. Piezo, It does seem the direct DAC XLR to Taboo XLR/transformer could sound better than the DAC to Zbit to RCA into the Taboo. Though maybe not if the Taboo has no transformer gains. If adjusting the gain of the ZBIT before the Taboo caused notable sound refinement, I suppose the ZBIT could possibly sound better. If it does sound best with the Zbit toned back some, for the DAC direct to amp test, it might be worth checking out what DAC gain adjustments sound like. Though my DAC pre is supposed to be really good by reports of others, I have never loved it, finding it just slightly slow and veiled, so I leave it wide open. But it seems some folks like the gain adjustments of their DACs, so it might be worth checking out if gain balancing between it and the Taboo increases the beauty. Trouble is, this direct connection, DAC to Taboo, might be telling in terms of this specific comparison, but it still wouldn't tell you how both transformers would sound together, and being all balanced, it would leave the CSP3-25 and ZRock2 you have coming out of the equation. Also those will likely effect the whole as much or more than the transformer setups, while also changing how you hear the transformers. Labyrinth! |
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Title: Re: With a preamp and amp, is a ZBIT still useful? Post by piezoman on 10/01/20 at 17:38:16 Will, indeed! It will be very interesting to test the two configurations. I may be one if the very few here that has a Taboo with the XLR inputs & Jensen transformers. Neither the BDA-2 nor the BDA-3 has any gain adjustments, and I was not looking for this feature in a DAC. Bryston is alot like Steve, they put their research into relatively minimalist designs with maximum parts quality.....the visuals on their equipment follows: simple as possible, no bling. Soon we'll see! |
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Title: Re: With a preamp and amp, is a ZBIT still useful? Post by piezoman on 10/01/20 at 20:58:14 Perhaps Steve can say a word about this? |
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Title: Re: With a preamp and amp, is a ZBIT still useful? Post by Lon on 10/01/20 at 21:19:32 I think I might prefer the ZBIT, ZROCK2 and CSP3 to the straight into the amp. Even with the low output of my DAC in balanced I find myself progressively turning down my ZBIT gain. Just gives me a better sound. But then I have a ZTPRE with balanced in and out. . . I enjoy having multiple gain stages before the amp, much more flexiblity and rewarding sound. And . . . I can no longer imagine a system without a ZROCK2. |
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Title: Re: With a preamp and amp, is a ZBIT still useful? Post by CAJames on 10/02/20 at 14:37:08 FWIW, I looked at the Benchmark cable, and IMO it is just a nicer "audiophile" version of the typical RCA to XLR cable you can get on Amazon for 10 bucks. The thing about balanced (I prefer to call it differential, but I'll stick with common usage) is that it is the electronics that are balanced, not the cable or the connector. Real balanced components like the ZTPRE and good balanced DACs have 4 channels: there is a + and - phase of both the L and R channels. It is expensive to do right, because it takes twice as many parts as conventional 2 channel gear where the L are R channels are referenced to ground. Now typically balanced signal is carried on cables with 3 pin XLR connectors, but there is nothing magic about the cable or the connector, it is the electronics to which the cable attaches that determines whether or not the signal is truly balanced. A lot of "balanced" connections really just use ground instead of the - phase, same as an unbalanced signal on RCA, see above about expensive to do balanced right. Which works fine, (and as an aside I think XLR connectors are way nicer than RCA and would prefer to use them for all connections, balanced and unbalanced) but it isn't balanced. So, back to the system at hand. There is nothing electrically wrong running an unbalanced signal through the transformer in a Taboo, to be fair I said "it didn't buy you anything" it just puts more parts in the signal chain. And while that isn't something I'm interested in some people (Lon) like the sound with more components rather than fewer, and there is nothing wrong with that. So, I need to rephrase my comment: there isn't any downside to trying it, and you might like the results. |
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Title: Re: With a preamp and amp, is a ZBIT still useful? Post by piezoman on 10/02/20 at 16:36:26 James, indeed.......as laid out in post 15 I'll be able to try it both ways. This will be interesting.......I may, or may not have a ZBIT for sale soon. The DAC still hasn't arrived yet, running a week late. Auuggh. |
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Title: Re: With a preamp and amp, is a ZBIT still useful? Post by piezoman on 10/12/20 at 00:29:19 The new DAC arrived and I've done some listening with the new CSP325th anniversary edition.......and wow the whole system has been upgraded with a significant sense of space, air, density and weight. Both the preamp and the DAC combined take it all to a new full level. The sound is.......truly gorgeous. I'm ecstatic! It was outstanding before, now its even beyond that. Hearing the new audio chain thru the Omega Junior XRS single alnico drivers is audio heaven. I can't explain it, but I definitely get a sense that the volume seems louder. This is also a very positive development. I have to ask......how can this be? Its 3 watts of sonic glory! Also, I decided t look keep the ZBIT. I really like the additional gain stage with the complexity that the CSP3 and Taboo MK 4 combination now provides......so many possibilities that sound great in a variety of knob positions. I love it all very dearly!! |
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Title: Re: With a preamp and amp, is a ZBIT still useful? Post by will on 10/12/20 at 02:15:47 That is great news piezo. If your DAC voltage is the same, my guess as to why it sounds louder, is that with your upgraded DAC your signal is presumably more extended, complete and resolving from the DAC. Then, the CSP3-25 will have its particular way with the DAC signal, making it feel even more resolving and therefore dense and complete. Adding speed, greater dynamic potential and articulation, and also weight and density (especially if you crank it up some), as well as well-done OTL tube lucidity and spaciousness, you get the CSP3-25 magic. So, my guess....the signal being notably more complete and more "potent," can make a similar volume feel and appear louder. |
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Title: Re: With a preamp and amp, is a ZBIT still useful? Post by piezoman on 10/12/20 at 02:43:03 Thanks will :) Actually the BDA-3 outout voltage is a tad lower than the unit it replaced; 4.0 vs. 4.5v out of the BDA-2. But what you're saying makes sense. And it definitely seems maybe 20% louder with a wonderfully pristine soundscape. In addition to the basic characteristics noted above, also at first glance so far instrument separation has increased further and vocals are so real and haunting I almost jumped out of the chair......I was astonished! Tone and timbre is absolutely beautiful. The DAC upgrade and addition of this very special preamp really has me floored. I'm just stunned. |
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Title: Re: With a preamp and amp, is a ZBIT still useful? Post by will on 10/12/20 at 03:10:04 Nice! |
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