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AUDIO FORUMS >> General Discussion and Support >> I see a need
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Message started by Donnie on 06/14/20 at 14:49:46

Title: I see a need
Post by Donnie on 06/14/20 at 14:49:46

I've been hanging around here for quite a while and have noticed a recurring question that needs a device designed to answer the question.

How many times have the question of "Will 2 watts drive my XYZ speaker", or 6 watts, or 20 watts been asked?

Is there a device that can be hooked to someone's speakers and tell them exactly what the speakers are drawing at their listening level, in their listening room?

We need a ZWATTO Meter.

Ya hook the sucker up on your speakers and it tells you what you really need. None of the marketing BS from the speaker companies that say (lie) of how efficient their speakers are.

I like simple and direct devices.
It would need a way to preserve the peak load, and perhaps some sort of average reading.

Is my thinking flawed??

Title: Re: I see a need
Post by Geno on 06/14/20 at 15:07:28

Great idea Donnie! Come up with something like that, and you will be rich. But how bout calling it the ZWUTWATT? ;D

Title: Re: I see a need
Post by piezoman on 06/14/20 at 17:26:16

hey, someone shares an idea, who are you to be so ignorant about it? seeing most of your useless post history here, your ignorant snarky attitude is unwelcome.

Title: Re: I see a need
Post by Geno on 06/14/20 at 20:09:59

Easy Piezon. I thought Donnie had a good idea. I just like to joke around.

I certainly never intend to offend anyone, but your remark was way out of line.

Title: Re: I see a need
Post by piezoman on 06/14/20 at 21:01:21

Geno, my remark was toward "Showme" who has since deleted his. His post was very rude and ignorant toward Donnie. Its not the first time he has done this.

Title: Re: I see a need
Post by Showme on 06/14/20 at 21:36:40

My post was a joke. Donnie is always joking around and I'm sure can take a joke. Since you thought it offensive I deleted it, with all the seriousness in this world I would hope we are still able to make a joke and it be recognized as such. Really no need for personal attacks. I still think a BS/snake oil detector would be a nice add-on or addition to an audio system for people pursuing this hobby.

Title: Re: I see a need
Post by piezoman on 06/14/20 at 22:33:02

nice attempt at cover, but you failed. you tried that crap with me and you didn't know me at all. then you deleted it, and I challenged you via PM, and you never had the guts to reply.

so you pull the wool over no one's eyes.

Title: Re: I see a need
Post by Archie on 06/14/20 at 23:10:18

I don't know what Showme wrote and I don't care but let's keep the hyper sensitive "offended" culture off of the Forum.

Title: Re: I see a need
Post by Showme on 06/14/20 at 23:19:19

Well said!

Title: Re: I see a need
Post by hells on 06/14/20 at 23:24:50

You'd think one could actually do this by have some device measure the output at the speaker terminals. Just like biamping or something, but instead you keep your amp plugged into your speaker terminals and this device also attaches to those terminals measuring the output. Would let somebody see instantly what their speakers are drawing currently, like some old school vumeters (why did those leave :().

Title: Re: I see a need
Post by Donnie on 06/15/20 at 00:43:43

Damn, it looks like I missed a good zinger!

Believe me, I can take a joke, I can also stand criticism, I'm pretty much all grown up.

Anyway, I still stand by my thought. How much power does it take to power someone's speaker in their room?
A device is needed to tell us that.

I've noticed a lot of people ask this question, we tell them that 2 or 6 or 20 watts is enough and they just say yeah, sure, and then we never hear from them again.
If there was a tool to actually show them exactly what they truly need to power their speakers in their room, they might believe us.

Title: Re: I see a need
Post by dank on 06/15/20 at 00:43:44

Hi Donnie

I built a couple of boxes that would do what your describing about 4 years ago. Its transformer coupled from the speaker terminals into the box with a hi z transformer with virtually no load so its a very light load on the speaker. Then it goes through an attenuation circuit, a simple peak rectifier op amp circuit, and then into the ADC pin of a PICAXE micro controller. The micro controller samples the ADC pin to get the peak voltage, converts to rms, and calculates power into the programmed speaker Z. It can be set for 16, 8, 4, 2 and other load impedance's. The power is then stored in a 256 deep memory so the last 256 samples are available. Finally, the power is displayed, the last sample, along with the average power of all 256 entries in the memory, as well as the peak reading in memory. It samples a few times a second and seems to be reasonably accurate. I just happen to be testing an amp, so I hooked it up and tried a few things. Got some pics when I was putting an 8.2v rms sine wave into an 8 ohm dummy load with the watt meter connected. If I had let it run longer, memory would have filled with 8.6w readings so average and peak would all be 8.6w.

I could let you borrow one if you want. 99.9w is the current limitation, 99.9w means 99.9w or higher.

Dan

Title: Re: I see a need
Post by Geno on 06/15/20 at 00:44:44

Agree with Archie. I’m sure that nothing bad enough to warrant that kind of response was posted. The main reason I love this forum is the civil nature of it. And so much to learn. Please be polite.

Title: Re: I see a need
Post by Archie on 06/15/20 at 00:49:59

The physics of this thread are beyond me but I wonder if such a device is possible given how Steve's amps seem to perform beyond their specs. A couple years ago Steve did some testing with his 40W ZMA and was getting 140W output.

Title: Re: I see a need
Post by Donnie on 06/15/20 at 02:24:39

Wow it looks like dank has already invented what I was wondering about. Dan is way smarter than I am about this 'lectrikery stuff. In fact I'm listening to his amp design right now.

Unless my super duper brain thought this up and by some sort of worm hole stuff went back in time and planted the idea in Dan's brain several years ago. Yeah, that is the most likely way it happened.

I just see this as a sales tool to get people over the "Wattage" hump. You know the type, "Mines bigger" so I'm more worthy of breeding . ( Did I really say that)?
Anyway, I just see it as a real handy way to quantify what peoples real needs are.

Title: Re: I see a need
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/15/20 at 02:45:03

What would be nice is to be able to read the loudspeakers actual impedance in real time and display it with the appropriate weighting. Setting it to 16, 8, 4 ohm because that's what the speaker claims is nominal may not always tell the real story. Since a speakers impedance swings from on average 30 to 6 to 30 ohms based on frequency, and in extreme cases 100 to 6 to 100 ohms, a true story must be calculated based on how much time it spends at each end. Also, there is the voltage/current created by the voice coil moving backwards through the speaker cable into the outputs of the amplifier. Different amplifiers deal with this differently. Tube amps really don't care. Solid state on the other hand really do care. Sadly I'm not smart enough to design such a device, but I'd love to compare it's results. I'll buy the first one : )

Steve

Title: Re: I see a need
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/15/20 at 02:54:52

A little battery driven 1 watt RMS frequency generator that would put out 50Hz, 500Hz, 1000Hz, 2500Hz, 5000Hz, 7500Hz and Pink Noise that could simply plug into the back of a loudspeaker would let people hear how loud 1 watt is on their speakers and be the size of a cigarette pack or smaller. Make it the size of a cigarette pack with four banana jacks on it, and you can hook both speakers to it at the same time and let it run through it's demo. A Zen amp is around 3.5 volts into 4 ohms with almost 1 amp of current.

Title: Re: I see a need
Post by Geno on 06/15/20 at 15:14:58

Steve, Donnie, Dank,

Donnie is correct about the top questions asked being, "How many watts do I need?" or "Is 2 watts enough?"

If one of you could come up with the battery driven device Steve mentioned, and it could be sold cheaply enough, That would be a fantastic tool for evaluating speakers, and thus watts needed (or desired ;)).

Something else that I've thought about too, is that with the "Is 2 watt's enough?" question being the main one, It'd be great to keep several Zen's in stock at all times, and advertise that it can be tried at home upon request, returned if not satisfied, or paid for if satisfied. I'll bet more would be sold like that. I'm not sure if that's doable or not. (the honor system is not as prevalent these days. Of course a persons home would have to be put up as collateral ::)) I guess shipping cost would be an obstacle too.

Another option would be the "Randy" method. Have folks with a Zen setup (or any Decware amp), volunteer their homes as a listening station for amp and speaker evaluation. I'd be up for that, although I may be a bit outside of a lot of folks reach in central Mississippi.

Title: Re: I see a need
Post by Palomino on 06/17/20 at 22:18:52

The brilliance that brought us the garbage can boom box, strikes again.

Quick, somebody patent this.

BTW Donnie, I bought some 18V batteries for a circular saw I inherited but I intend to test them with my boom box to see what the extra 6 or so volts does for it.

Title: Re: I see a need
Post by Palomino on 06/17/20 at 22:37:37

Post Covid, I'd offer my system to anyone who wanted to evaluate a 25th in the Chicago area Geno.

Another way might be for us to create a sticky with our amp, speaker brand/model and room size (maybe listening SPL). We probably have all Decware speakers covered, Caintuck, Omega, Tekton, Zu. Any other high sensitivity brands?

Or Steve of somebody create the little box. You put down a deposit and it's sent to your home for a 1 week evaluation. Refunded upon return. You are only out shipping.

Title: Re: I see a need
Post by Geno on 06/18/20 at 16:51:33

The sticky is a good idea Palo. Anyone looking to build a system with a particular amp/speaker combo could communicate with whichever forum member has a comparable room/system setup.

You know, this is the reason that all members should have their equipment listed in their signature. I think that some feel that people are just showing off what they have, but it is a reference tool with similar info as the sticky, so that someone interested, or who owns similar components can communicate with that member.

Title: Re: I see a need
Post by Palomino on 06/18/20 at 16:54:36

Yes, I appreciate the system listing. I've contacted a member or two and I've had a few contacts as well.

I try to keep mine updated...

Title: Re: I see a need
Post by Greg C on 06/19/20 at 03:15:21

....I agree with Geno and Palomino...I find the guys who have the similar equipment that I have and read everything they have to say ....it's nice to follow the experienced members and learn...that is what's so great about this forum... It is a great bunch of guys who are willing to share there knowledge and expertise with everybody...I look forward everyday to logging on to see what is going on...I would like to take this time to thank Lon, Steve and everyone else who has helped me learn and love this wonderful hobby ...to all newcomers, enjoy these great bunch of guys.

Thanks
Greg

Title: Re: I see a need
Post by Chester on 06/19/20 at 04:48:11

Hey everyone,

I also had this question when I was trying to pick a Decware amp. This may be simplistic (or miss the point), but aren’t we talking about a dB meter? If we can assume that all the amplifiers will sound good then it’s just a matter of if it gets loud enough. I could have sworn that Steve put up a graphic on this website that was a chart showing watts vs speaker sensitivity and the correlating dB level. I also found this:

https://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

Whether I’m missing the boat or not, I will second the sentiment of a great group of very helpful people.

Title: Re: I see a need
Post by Palomino on 06/19/20 at 13:23:13

I don’t know much about the intricacies but speaker published SPL is not always a good measure of how a set of speakers will mate with an amp. Also there are “tube watts“ and “SS watts.” Nobody ever believes I am only pushing a watt or two on my system. Someone more knowledgeable can correct me or add to the conversation.

I do think Steve’s table is a useful guide.