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AUDIO FORUMS >> Vinyl >> Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
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Message started by litefootdan on 12/09/19 at 05:11:02

Title: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by litefootdan on 12/09/19 at 05:11:02

Hello Fine Gents and Ladies,

I'm just curious as to whether anyone on the vinyl forum, or anyone here on any of the forums has had any experience with outer periphery rings. I'd always been curious as I seem to run across many warped records and I've always wanted a solution. I have seen options but none of them seemed to suit at the particular time I considered buying...... until this one.

https://www.waynesaudio.com/product-page/turntable-outer-ring-for-vpi-clearaudio...

This thing isn't just a record flattener.

Please don't think of this thread as an advertisement, however much of what I will say does seem to suggest so.

The ring is amazing. Amazing like when I first replaced a capacitor in a vintage crossover. Amazing like when I discovered wide-band drivers. Amazing like when I built my first ZKIT1 and realized what it could do. Amazing like going to a respected moving coil cartridge..... amazing like hearing Steve's listening room. I've only heard stories about his first one.

In my set-up, with my gear, the difference between hearing vinyl playback with the periphery ring present, and not present is absolutely fantastic. I am trying not to get too colorful with my appreciation with this thing but..... I have to. Coherency is amazing (like going to a wide band crossover-less driver). But you loose none of the dynamics. In fact you gain dynamics. It's like every single part of the frequency response just plain improves. Micro-detail is better, honest Bass response is better, just everything in the groove is better. And the ring isn't selective or preferential. It just seems to demand that the stylus put it's very best foot forward and give the phono stage the best signal it can. Let's just put it this way, I'd buy another in a heartbeat, and will if I need two vinyl rigs.

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by Jeff of Arabica on 12/10/19 at 16:36:26

Yo Dan!

I will say that I was very intrigued by this product after reading your post. A couple years ago, I researched and eventually purchased a record weight/clamp, but had never heard of an outer periphery ring, until now.

So, I went to the Wayne's Audio website www.waynesaudio.com to see what it is you were so excited about. Well, it turns out that Wayne is located in Pomona which is only about 30 miles from me. I reached out to him to see if I could come over for a demo and he obliged. I must say, Wayne is an incredibly nice guy! And, he has some pretty killer gear..... The MBL Radiostrahler's sounded pretty special!

Long story short, I purchased his SS-2 and brought it home. After three hours of album listening, with and without the outer ring, I decided this thing is a keeper and I will no longer play an album without it in place. As Dan mentioned, the improvement is distinct. The bass is certainly improved and going back and forth made it clear to me that across the spectrum, the overall dynamics are much improved with the ring in place. I don't have any grossly warped records, but just purchased the newly released Anthony Wilson "Songs and Photographs" album (which won the Arya Award for best audiophile recoding of the year from the LA & OC Audio Society). It, like many great and news manufactured albums had a very slight "non-flatness" to it. I would not consider it a warped record but enough where you can see movement of the cartridge. Anyway, with the ring in place, perfectly flat record with no cartridge movement at all. So, you get a very consistent VTA which is not the case when there is any up and down movement of the stylus on the record during playback. The ring is heavy at 3.8 lbs and not only makes the record flat, it does a wonderful job coupling the record to the platter, which is obviously having a possible influence on the SQ.

While it is not cheap (on sale at the moment for $550, it is cheaper than competitors products by a large margin), it was an upgrade to my TT rig that was worth every penny. Thanks for the recommendation Dan!

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by Archie on 12/10/19 at 16:49:27

I looked at rings a few years ago and I sure like the concept. Unfortunately, this is incompatible with the Technics 1200 TT that I have. :(

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by Donnie on 12/10/19 at 17:13:11

$550, I'm catering to the wrong customers.

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by Archie on 12/10/19 at 17:43:43

Donnie, can you make one of these? I'd need one with a different underside profile to fit my TT. And they are super expensive. Not sure why.

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by Donnie on 12/10/19 at 22:03:32

Archie,
Sorry but no. All of our machines are dedicated to fairly specific parts.
We talked about these parts at lunch today. We are figuring around $225 to $260 to make these. But you stick a couple middle men in the mix and $550 is a deal I guess.
What would the ring need to look like?
Do you have a local machine shop? I'd talk to them and feel them out about pricing.

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by litefootdan on 12/10/19 at 22:51:32

Jeff!!! I'm so happy this worked out for you! Then ring is a darn fine addition isn't it? It looks like Wayne has a pretty interesting set up over there, very cool he was so close and that you could have an up close and personal look at the ring and audition it as well. Hope we'll all get to catch back up with you at the next fest!!!!!!!!!

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by Archie on 12/10/19 at 22:54:52

The Technics 1200 TTs have a tapered side to the platter so the ring would need a 45 degree bevel cut on the inside bottom. Sadly, no machine shops anywhere close to me.

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by litefootdan on 12/10/19 at 23:40:40

Hey Archie, Even a ring that didn't "step down" that much would probably be beneficial. Just a stab in the dark, but it looks like you could get a couple 16ths of an inch hanging below the top surface of the record maybe even 3. I don't know how much clearance there would be around the edge of the record, but if you have a quarter to a half inch of so, that amount of steel would add up nicely. May want to give it a shot if you could find someone to give it a shot without spending too much money.

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by Archie on 12/10/19 at 23:44:01

That's true. I'd have to calculate the weight. I see that my LPs overhang the platter. A ring would sit on the LP unsupported by the platter. Are other TT platters similar? A couple of pounds distributed around the LP might not be enough weight to worry about though.

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by Donnie on 12/11/19 at 01:06:39

I'm going to talk to a friend of mine who has a tool shop tomorrow. I'll see what he thinks it would cost to build any of these.
When I say tool shop I mean that he builds hyper precise tooling, this would be a walk in the park for his guys.

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by Archie on 12/11/19 at 01:27:34

I noticed on the site linked to above, there is a picture of a 1200Mk5 with one of his ring clamps on it. Not sure which version it is. I sent him an email.

Weight is important but so is geometry.

I'd love an affordable option.

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by litefootdan on 12/11/19 at 03:13:01

Archie,
My situation is similar to your's in that the ring is actually slightly larger than my platter, something like a millimeter larger all the way around. I have not noticed that the ring flexes any records up towards the spindle without my center weight in place.
I agree that geometry is very important with a periphery ring, it would be a shame to have any inequities whirling around on the edge of your vinyl. The Wayne's Audio ring certainly looks to perfect, but I don't have the ability to measure the thing in action. It just sounds great!!!

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by Jeff of Arabica on 12/11/19 at 06:01:23

Hey Dan!
Yeah, loving this outer ring! Great find amigo! And it was a really cool coincidence to have him local. :)

I would not worry about having the weight ride on the edge of the record that happens to over hang. Vinyl is pretty rigid, but I would make certain to use a clamp or weight on the spindle to ensure the coupling is at the edge AND center of the record.

It also looks pretty bad ass on my turntable so an added bonus! :o

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by Archie on 12/11/19 at 16:52:41

I've been emailing Wayne. It turns out that he now has a ring that fits the Technics 1200 TTs. I'm seeing issues with it though. First, it's relatively light weight, 2 lbs. The ring is thin (3/8") which is much thinner than needs on the 1200s. I think it's that thin to accommodate more TTs. Unfortunately, this cuts its weight. I think I have more than 1 mm vinyl overhang too. I use a Mitchell clamp already and I'd keep using it with a ring. One big detractor for me is that I'd have to remove my fluid arm damper. Now it starts to be a trade between "tweeks." I also don't know if my Ortofon Cadenza carts would clear the ring on cuing. The Cadenzas are wide and low. I might have only 1 mm clearance up and down.

Any thoughts?

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by litefootdan on 12/11/19 at 18:24:57

I’d ask Wayne if the ring is returnable. That way if there any problems you wouldn’t be out so much. I prefer to set my needle by hand just in case it lands too close to the ring. Infrequently, I can tell that I’ve placed my ring slightly off and if the stylus were to run into it there would certainly be chaos. Also, I have the SS1 ring, which is close to 2 1/2 pounds. It still works like a charm.

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by Archie on 12/12/19 at 22:10:16

I've ordered the ring for the 1200. Wayne said it's only 0.5 mm thick on the record. I'm assuming that the placement jig lines it up perfectly. If not, there could be consequences as you point out. One issue I have is that my arm damper tray will interfere. Kevin at KAB does not think it's a good trade to remove the arm damping in favor of a ring clamp. After studying the damper, I think I can make modifications that will give me enough clearance. But if the ring isn't centered, I doubt it will work even with a modified damper.

One other thing is the added complexity of playing a record with the ring. How have you guys found it so far?

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by litefootdan on 12/13/19 at 00:41:24

I think you have done the right thing Archie... If your experiences are anything like mine and Jeff's, you will be rewarded. I was looking back on my comment about the ring being placed slightly off center. I've studied how I am placing my ring and have found that (especially in contemporary pressings) the actual grooves in the vinyl are pressed into the record off center. Sometimes grossly. It just takes more time and study of where the grooves are in the actual record and if the ring has been laid accurately enough on the record. For my money, it's not enough to deter me from using the ring every time I start another listen. It is not that "complex" if you will, but just another step that is worth every single moment. ;) I am happy you decided to get the ring. Please share your impressions!

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by Archie on 12/13/19 at 00:56:33

Do you use the jig that comes with the ring? It ought to center the ring on the platter at least. Yes? That's my real concern since I'll be so close to my damper.

Editorial: The fluid damper is really a great thing to have. KAB makes versions for the old 1200 as well as the new models. Unfortunately, I don't think they'd work with any other tonearm. But there must be other dampers out there.

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by litefootdan on 12/13/19 at 02:33:31

Yes, I do use the jug supplied with the ring. It is very close to being 100% dialed in, but there is a tiny amount of discrepancy. I have to really study to see and correct it. After a couple time mounting the ring, if you are studying its usage, it becomes easy to use.

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by Archie on 12/13/19 at 17:19:41

Dan, How stable is the ring on the record? What's it take to make it slip? I was wondering if a very thin coat of something rubbery on the underside would be a good idea. I'm only worried for clearance. I doubt very slight eccentricity would affect anything else.

The jig used for the 1200 ring is a sheet of plexiglass with 4 pegs in the corners and a hole in the center for the spindle. I saw that the other ring jigs were a round sheet of plastic only.

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by Jeff of Arabica on 12/14/19 at 06:21:44

Archie,
The rectangular jig you described is the same one I received with my ring. I think that is the latest design he is now using with all of the outer rings. It works great, centers it to the spindle and is easy to use. I have not used it much but has done well in getting the ring properly positioned on the recored with little fuss.

I would not sweat the lighter weight. I would take 2 pounds over no pounds. My guess is, it will do a nice job coupling your record to the TT on your 1200.

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by Archie on 12/14/19 at 17:39:25

Cool. I spent a couple hours yesterday filing on my fluid damper tray and I should now have 1.25 mm clearance between it and the ring, which is due here Tuesday. If the rings are as nice as I expect, I should have the best of both worlds.

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by litefootdan on 12/15/19 at 00:01:42

Hi Archie,

I've never had any slipping with my ring. There is quite a lot of surface contact on the outer edge of the record and this seems to do a great job, both with ring itself and platter/record contact as well.

Personally, I'd be worried to apply something to the ring. I wonder if it could leave a residue on the record and or be a dust attractor. I don't know. I surely wouldn't alter it if there are no clearance issues.

As far as the jig is concerned, I also received the rectangular, 4 pegged jig and I am not having any issues with it. It works great.

Please keep us informed when you get your ring and post impressions of it :)

Dan

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by Archie on 12/15/19 at 00:23:46

Thanks, just checking. If I put something on it I was thinking along the lines of rubber cement. I'd prefer not and it sounds like it isn't needed.

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by Archie on 12/18/19 at 00:03:19

Well, I got the ring and it is nicely made and all but it rubs against the back of the Technics 1200 dust cover. This makes it unusable since the dust cover is very important and while removable, is an integral part of the 1200 TT. I'm not even going to bother trying it since I won't run my TT sans dust cover. This would likely work for 1200 users who don't use the dust cover but it doesn't actually fit the 1200 TT.

Big disappointment.

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by litefootdan on 12/18/19 at 04:05:42

Hi Archie,
I understand that you're frustrated, but I would seriously consider removing the dust cover from it's hinges and using the ring when you are playing records. You can always replace your dust cover when you are not listening. I listened to a record today without my ring on and it was just not the same without the ring installed. Just food for thought. At very least give it a shot. You have improved dynamics and coherency to gain. Of course it's up to you.

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by Archie on 12/18/19 at 16:09:09

Dan, We all have things in our audio setups that give us certain limitations. The location of my TT makes removing and reinstalling my DC a major PITA. I also live in a very dry and dust climate. And with a woodstove a few feet away, the problem becomes extreme. I've tried playing with DC on/off, up/down and with a beanbag on top for vibration control and I don't hear any difference. I've read pages and pages of Forum discussions about DC on/off with the 1200.

I'm really pissed with Wayne at this point. He sells a ring for a TT that it only fits with a major feature change but didn't bother mentioning it. Plus, I spent several hours modifying a $170 accessory part just for this ring. I only thank god I didn't modify the TT itself. If I cut on the DC I could make it all fit but to me that'd be like carving on one of Steve's amps. Also, if I ruin the DC, they are hard to get and cost $200. I also have a bad feeling that Wayne won't take responsibility and I'll be stuck with return shipping, if not both ways! He hasn't responded to my email. Prior to the sale he was very communicative.

I've already incorporated a few tweaks that I suspect make the ring effect not as important as it otherwise might be. At this point I'm staying with simple. I play all vinyl and it's important that I keep the process reasonably streamlined.

I still like the idea of a ring clamp and one would work with the 1200 TT but a little more thought would need to go into the design.

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by Archie on 12/18/19 at 18:49:30

I went ahead and tried the ring. I didn't want to have any nagging doubts and if it really made a difference, cutting part of the DC could be worth it. In this case though, I couldn't hear any difference with or without the ring. As I mentioned, I have other tweaks. I have the tonearm fluid damper and I have my center clamp set up such that it pushes the whole LP into contact with the mat (Herbies). I'll admit, some records with much warp or reverse dish will not make as full contact as with a ring. I didn't try any of those.

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by litefootdan on 12/19/19 at 22:52:11

Well at least you know. I'm sorry it didn't work out for you Archie but at least you tried. Were you able to talk about a return policy with Wayne if it did not work out? I hope you were. On a lighter note, it seems like you have a very satisfying vinyl situation as it was and that's a plus. Best of luck Sir.

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by Archie on 12/19/19 at 23:23:08

I'll have to see what Wayne does about shipping. In his return policy he doesn't cover shipping either way but seeing as this was an issue with compatibility I'm hoping he'll see it my way.

I'd still love to figure out a way to get a ring made that would really fit the 1200 TT. I'm always looking for improvements but I like to keep in mind this old New Yorker Magazine cartoon.

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by litefootdan on 12/19/19 at 23:57:44

Yeah, that cartoon is a classic. I wish I knew how to post pictures but here's a link to another funny cartoon....

https://geezerguff.com/round-thing-on-a-spinning-plate-cartoon/

Keep on spinning my friend ;)

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by Archie on 12/20/19 at 00:37:37

I love that one. I heard yesterday that vinyl outsold CDs this year.

That's the first picture I've posted that is from the Internet. I used the "Insert Image" above and cut and pasted the "Copy Image Address" for the image.

Here's your's:

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by Archie on 01/07/20 at 17:09:57

Determined to get a ring for my 1200G TT I decided to make one out of brass using my woodworking tools. I bought a plate of 26000 brass 1/2" thick ($300!). I contact cemented it to a piece of melamine surfaced particle board backed up with 1 1/2" thick maple and cut the whole thing into a circle on my bandsaw using my circle cutting jig. I then used that jig on my router table to surface the outer edge and cut the inner profile. The last thing was to cut the ring free from the rest of the brass. This is where the ring cemented to the board was crucial. I used a carbide end mill bit and a carbide tipped router bit for the cuts. I got some good advice from Donnie on speeds and technique. :)

It actually worked! My ring weighs 3.22 lbs. I made my own setting jig similar to what Wayne uses but made out of wood.

After this experience, I can't see how Wayne sells his rings so cheap. I have a 10 1/2" D brass disc if anyone has a project and would like to buy it from me. :P

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by Archie on 01/07/20 at 17:11:36

Here's the ring profile. The 1200 TT has a sloped platter so I gave it a 55 degree bevel. I wanted to retain as much weight as possible.

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by Donnie on 01/07/20 at 22:06:34

Wow, the finish came out real good!

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by Archie on 01/07/20 at 22:30:30

A little chatter. I did run a bit of sandpaper over it but I left the mill marks. The spiral end mill did a much better job than the two-wing bevel cutter. That bit tended to tear the brass if I went against the rotation (how you'd normally do it with wood) so I went with the cutter and worked hard to control the piece as it wanted to "run away" with the bit.

There was a bit of warp in the plate so it's not "perfect." Within a few thou though.

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by JD on 01/08/20 at 00:39:51

Archie,

Although i'm still unsure of the benefit vs cost the work you did is beautiful. Please keep us updated. I'm always intrigued with you guys and your upgrades, so cool.

JD

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by Archie on 01/08/20 at 01:18:56

Thanks JD.

Because I spent nearer to $400 (with tooling) and a lot of time, I'm going to say I hear a positive affect. ;) I had to make my own ring since my TT isn't very ring friendly and the one Wayne has is too light (IMO) and interfered with my DC. I would say that relative to other costs involved with hi fidelity vinyl spinning, 4 or 5 hundred for a quality ring is worth the investment. My cartridge cost me 3 times that and I got a great deal on it.

Spurious vibration is the bane of vinyl and the ring should cut down on that. If vinyl were perfectly flat, it wouldn't be needed. Flattening warps is only a fringe benefit of the ring. It's true purpose is to ensure LP/mat contact to kill off vibration in the LP caused by the stylus tracking forces.

No one asked, but that's my take anyway.

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by charles hidalgo on 01/08/20 at 07:59:33

Wayne's Audio here also. This is the SS-T version. https://www.waynesaudio.com/product-page/universal-turntable-periphery-outer-ring-clamp-ss-t

The site says it works with most Technics models also.

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by Archie on 01/08/20 at 16:43:00

What Wayne doesn't say though is that it interferes with the dust cover. That was a no-go for me and I'm sure many other 1200 owners. Also, that ring is on the light side, IMO. It easily could have been designed with a slightly smaller OD and a deeper profile. I suspect Wayne is used to TTs without DCs and got caught by surprise.

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by charles hidalgo on 01/08/20 at 17:39:05

Okay I see..... Yeah I have never used a dust cover on any of the TT’s I have ever owned in over 30 years. At least not while playing anyway.

Charlie

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by Archie on 01/08/20 at 18:08:14

Lots of debate on DCs. Since the 1200 DC is so well integrated, it's easy to use and does exactly what a DC should do, keeps dust out. I've not been able to hear a difference, DC down, up, off or with a bean bag weight on top, so the dust rejection is all gravy.

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by Archie on 01/09/20 at 01:07:30

Charles,

Looking at your room pics on the other thread, it looks like you may be using a 1200 TT. Is this the case? If so, why don't you use the DC?

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by charles hidalgo on 01/11/20 at 07:27:03

Its not's not a Technics 1200 it's an Audio Technica. Sadly the ring does not work on it.

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by Archie on 01/11/20 at 17:22:53

I looked up the AT 1240 (if that's the right model) and it sure looks like Wayne's SS-T ring would fit. The 1240 looks so much like the 1200. I think he lists it as a compatible model. Although my experience would make me verify that.

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by charles hidalgo on 01/18/20 at 06:25:10

Hey Archie. I thought I tried the ring on my AT 1240 but something was telling me maybe I had not so tonight I did. I does fit and work. BTW this is a great table if anybody is wondering and I scored mine new in the box for 250.00. I completely removed the onboard phono section and wired nice rca's which was very easy and sounds much better. The ring misses both the stylus light the power knob without any problems. Sorry for the misinformation. I have included a few photos.

Title: Re: Anyone tried an outer periphery ring?
Post by Archie on 01/18/20 at 18:30:05

Nice! Wayne's ring is definitely high quality. Your arm looks like the 1200 too. Have you ever considered KAB's fluid damping? He thinks it's a much bigger upgrade than a peripheral clamp. If you do use one though, the mount would have to be modified to clear Wayne's ring. A little tricky but doable.