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https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl AUDIO FORUMS >> General Discussion and Support >> Dedicated Line https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1556381323 Message started by pursuitofnow on 04/27/19 at 17:08:43 |
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Title: Dedicated Line Post by pursuitofnow on 04/27/19 at 17:08:43 I'm looking to add a dedicated line and would love all the help and advice I can get. I know there is a lot of information out there on the web regarding dedicated lines, but I've found so much valuable information on these forums that I'd like your thoughts on the subject. House was built in 1959 and has two prongs everywhere but kitchen and bathrooms which have gfci with what I can see is ground wires to pipes. I'll be replacing the old main panel with a new 200 amp and hopefully installing a big ground rod, but other than that what should I consider for a new electrical and dedicated line? Should I add a sub-panel? Any help on brands and models of panels, breakers, etc. would be greatly appreciated. Same for wiring. Right now I'm considering the Audience or JPS in-wall wire. |
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Title: Re: Dedicated Line Post by Steve Deckert on 04/27/19 at 18:30:11 FWIW, I seem to have had the best luck over the years with Square D brand products and the worst luck with Federal Pacific. If it were me I would install the new panel with a new ground rod and then plan out your breakers. The box will have two 120 volt legs. I would take a look at all the 120 volt appliances in the house, anything with a motor or heating element and situate all of those loads on one leg that we can now refer to as the noisy leg. Put everything else on the other leg. We'll call that the quiet leg. Place your audio room breaker (20 amps) as the first breaker on the quiet leg. Place your 240 volt 2-pole breakers at the very bottom of the panel. Use 10 gauge romex wire (10-2 with Ground) and run a continuous length from the breaker box to the outlet in your listening room. Use hospital grade outlets. Yes, the 10 gauge is rated for 30 amps, but you will only be using it for a 20 amp circuit, of which you will never probably draw more than 5 or 10 amps. If you get involved with the "audiophile" in-wall AC cable you've mentioned, I'll strangle you with it. Steve |
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Title: Re: Dedicated Line Post by Archie on 04/27/19 at 18:34:23 Great Breaker advice. I'm going to have to look at my panel to see if things can be swapped around. Typically, by the time audio needs get addressed, that breaker ends up at the bottom of the panel where there is space. (my case anyway) Allowing for wire lengths though, things can be moved around. |
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Title: Re: Dedicated Line Post by ScottNC on 04/27/19 at 19:36:29 There ya go, no need to search further, you got it from the one who knows. Plus, I’m still chuckling at his last sentence...you won’t get any better advice...anywhere. [smiley=10.gif] Best, Scott |
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Title: Re: Dedicated Line Post by pursuitofnow on 04/28/19 at 01:58:06 Thank you, Steve. That is exactly the sort of information I was looking for :) |
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Title: Re: Dedicated Line Post by Lonely Raven on 04/30/19 at 19:15:47 Steve nailed it! I had to laugh at the audiophile wire comment, especially since I used Zen Styx type 10AWG and 8AWG wire for two hospital grade outlets. LOL That said, I'm sure it was overkill - just keep the resistance low (hence 10AWG) and your connections firm (Hospital Grade Outlets) Since you're having a new panel put in, see if the installer can measure your resistance to ground. The lower you can get your ground, the easier it will be for noise to be dumped to ground (path of lease resistance, right!). National Electrical Code (NEC) is very broad on this subject as NEC is for safety, not quality of ground. So the installer might say "it's good enough", but it can't hurt to exceed the safety spec for *quality*. NEC spec is 25ohm if I recall, but IEEE spec is like 5ohm. When I finally got my house sorted out I was at like 1.5 to 2.5 ohm depending on how moist the soil is. https://www.ecmweb.com/sites/ecmweb.com/files/uploads/2014/03/4346628a_en_EarthGround-tutorial-e.pdf |
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Title: Re: Dedicated Line Post by pursuitofnow on 05/01/19 at 07:59:45 I hear you Lonely Raven, I got a chuckle from the audiophile wire comment as well. I recall you mentioning the Zen Styx when you rewired your room. Did you notice any differences if any between the higher end wire vs standard 10ga romex? Thanks for the tip on getting the ground as low as possible. I will make sure to ask the electrician. |
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Title: Re: Dedicated Line Post by will on 05/05/19 at 00:06:56 Whether carrying power or signal inside amps, in ICs, in speaker cables, or in power cords, I can't recall a wire change that was not noticeable enough to make a choice valid for me. Differences in purities and drawing methods of silvers and coppers, different dielectrics, geometry, different gauges...so far, all have been audible enough to matter to me. That said, I have not experimented with in-wall wires. But hearing from a few folks with good ears who have explored this over time, like Steve, they find 10 gauge Romex is good, especially for the money! Seems wire and cable geometry matters, but perhaps less in-wall than after the receptacle. I Don't know from experience, but with these tips, I am inclined to go with 10 gauge Romex. I have also heard from folks with good perception that cyro'd Romex is audibly better. I have liked everything I have had cryo'd, so I am considering some 10/2 w/ground from audioexcellenceaz.com, who has a lot of cryo experience, will pick up stock rolls of the wire locally, and cryo whatever roll length needed. It seems he will also cryo dedicated breakers. He is the developer for the Cable Cooker, and if desired, he will "cook" the cable. Not sure, but I am thinking of two runs with two separate receptacles in order to separate the amps from digital. Any thoughts? Mains off and voltage checked, looking in my panel today to see what breakers I will need, I found the older Square D breakers have a sort of bracket clip that connects across the buss with a spring tension. Many seemed a little too loose, so I decided to pull them one-by-one and squeeze the connectors together a bit. Grabbing the buss with better connections, I think I am hearing some increased clarity, solidity and ease with the system. It seems everything is a little quieter, system, refrigerator, air filter... Finally, I have not tried a lot of receptacles, but have found meaningful differences. For better flow and more transparent sound, I liked the a Hospital grade receptacle I used for several years better than the one that was here. But testing others for a power conditioner maker, I found several I liked quite a bit better than the hospital grade and some not that expensive. My favorite now is a Mapleshade, I think old stock, light construction, with ceramic wire nuts and a maple faceplate, costing something like $70. |
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Title: Re: Dedicated Line Post by ginny on 07/22/19 at 22:40:15 Steve, i took your advice and ran a dedicated line via the instructions you laid out..... Wife and I just moved into another house on July 7th and on the 15th I wanted to run a dedicated line. (something i have been wanting to do for a year, but knew we would be moving soon so held off). I installed a 20 amp square D breaker (all my breakers are square D) on the top of the right side of my panel, used 10 gauge romex wire (10-2 with Ground) and a continuous run from the breaker to the outlet. I bought a PSAudio (Power port classic) hospital grade outlet with isolated ground. Let me just say that was the best $150 improvement!!! If there are any doubters if this is worth it or not and you decide that it's not, you won't know what you're missing. I am definitely not well versed in audio talk so i won't try. On the first power up I let the system warm up on a low volume for a couple hours while my wife and I did some unpacking, then we both sat down to do some critical listening.....i'll just say that we kept looking at each other with giant grins on our faces and nodding our heads in delight. **SPEND THE $150** |
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Title: Re: Dedicated Line Post by Archie on 07/23/19 at 01:01:09 Not that I'm a doubter but did you get to run the system much on the old outlet? Just wondering if you're new place has cleaner power in general. |
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Title: Re: Dedicated Line Post by ginny on 07/24/19 at 11:56:18 That’s a fair question and yes i did for a solid week. It seemed like a veil was lifted off of it. The outlet i had it plugged into for that week was in parallel with 4 other outlets, 2 of them on a pair of 3 way switches. Another pair of 3 way switches for 2 soffit lights with a separate dimmer switch and also a ceiling fan w/ high and low light switch on the same breaker. If my memory serves me right, the previous house had the above….but substitute the soffit lights and 3 way switches and dimmer switch with 2 ceiling (boob) lights each on separate dimmers, and it sounded pretty much the same in both houses I know it could be hard to justify the added expense ($150 or so for the do it yourselfer, and probably double if you hire an electrician), but having done it, there is a serious noticeable improvement on the dedicated circuit, everything is balanced. Don’t get me wrong, it sounded very good before, but sounds amazing now. |
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Title: Re: Dedicated Line Post by Archie on 07/24/19 at 16:53:55 Wow, that's a LOT of stuff on the line. I worry about my line having an extra (unused) hospital grade outlet and a couple small curio lights above the amps! You definitely did the right thing. |
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Title: Re: Dedicated Line Post by Steve Deckert on 07/26/19 at 05:37:28 Congratulations on your dedicated line! I appreciate the feedback. The more potential an amplifier has, the more the sound will change with better incoming power. The best incoming power is always at night in my experience. The goal is to get that same sound during the day. There are two things that change between middle of the night and middle of the day, one is the harmonics in the power grid are super low at night, just as if you used a Zen Line Conditioner or similar product to decouple you from the grid greatly diminishing those harmonics. The other is that the sun is blocked by the thickness of planet Earth. The final thing is the cycles per second can an often do increase at night to make up for load sharing during the daytime so that electric clocks are right when you wake up in the morning. This means the cycles per second can be increased to 61, 62 or so HZ during the nighttime. Steve |
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Title: Re: Dedicated Line Post by Steve Deckert on 07/26/19 at 06:11:55 Quote:
I would say that could be a great idea provided the computer is optically de-coupled from the analog audio system. Steve |
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Title: Re: Dedicated Line Post by ginny on 10/29/19 at 19:44:29 Would plugging my DAC into the same outlet on my dedicated line have a negative effect on my amp? |
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Title: Re: Dedicated Line Post by Steve Deckert on 10/29/19 at 20:47:54 No, your dedicated line for the audio system should be used by all of your audio components, and ideally all plugged into the same group of duplex receptacles to prevent ground loops. Steve |
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Title: Re: Dedicated Line Post by ginny on 10/29/19 at 23:13:14 Thanks Steve |
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Title: Re: Dedicated Line Post by maddog07 on 10/30/19 at 19:48:20 Plus+1 to everything the Zenmaster has recommended. +1 on the Square D products too. I had the opportunity to do nearly all the things he recommended above when we had our house built. I have since then, with a remodel, also rearranged breakers/circuits in the panel like he advises. If you have a dedicated line, connected in the main breaker panel as Steve directed, and plug all your components into that same circuit, your chances of having problems with noise and ground loops is drastically reduced. Reduced to the point, that if you do have a hum issue, it's probably one of your components(or interconnects/connections) and not an issue with the power in your house. I have several different pairs of single full-range driver, high efficiency speakers, ranging from 95ish DB to a little over 100db. I use a Decware amp to drive them. And a tube preamp most of the time. I have to put my ear nearly against the cone to hear any noise - now that's quiet!! All of this contributes to my system being more resolute than any of my buddies systems. You will not regret the little extra effort and costs required to get good clean power to your audio components. |
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