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https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl AUDIO FORUMS >> General Discussion and Support >> CD player https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1546118872 Message started by Showme on 12/29/18 at 21:27:52 |
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Title: CD player Post by Showme on 12/29/18 at 21:27:52 Any suggestions for an upgrade on my CD player would be appreciated. Now I’m just using a run of the mill Sony. I’m sure my Zen 25th amp deserves better. I play a lot of CD’s so wanted to start researching a better component. |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by lazb on 12/29/18 at 22:02:27 I am sure others will weigh in but I have the now discontinued PS Audio Perfect Wave Transport and it has left nothing to be desired for me. Their newer model is, I am sure, an improvement but funds do not allow an upgrade. The PWT comes up for sale sometimes and I can heartily recommend it. Since PS Audio takes trade ins they may have reconditioned units. |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by Showme on 12/29/18 at 22:10:20 Thanks, I’ll take a look. Open to suggestions. |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by Tripwr1964 on 12/30/18 at 14:26:03 may fav to date was a cec tl5 transport, but i sold it because i don't play cd often enough and couldn't justify that much invested in something is didn't use. if i were to play cd's everyday, i wouldn't hesitate to find another one. since i went to a cheaper but very nice cambridge cxc transport. $450 then there is the rega apollo player. $1050 couple ideas. |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by Lon on 12/30/18 at 15:18:47 Not very many options for high quality cd players these days, and it's telling that the two recommended so far are transports that one needs to use a DAC with. My own experience is that the quality that great electrical treatment, isolation treatment and cabling in tandem with the wonderful revealing clarity of Decware components led me on a quest for the best cd sound I could find. I ended up with a duo that lists for 12 thousand dollars! (Though that's far more than I paid for mine). This combo makes wonderful sound, and the Zen components reveal just how amazing the formats can be, but I would hardly recommend anyone spend that much, that would be far too presumptuous of me. First of the other two best I've heard at a better price point is recently discontinued and no longer available: an Oppo UDP-2005. Oppo Digital ceased existing as a company this year and this 1300 dollar list machine was a real bargain. If you can find one at a great price it's worth hearing. I wasn't crazy about earlier Oppos but the DAC section in this one is very good and it plays CD and SACD and Blu-ray, and can serve as a playback component for many digital file formats if you're into that, and as a preamp for the system as well. My other favorite is a Denon 100th Anniversary universal player no longer made which also has an accessible excellent DAC section, the DCD-A100. I still see one come up for sale now and then and it's highly recommended. Very analog sounding. |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by HockessinKid on 12/30/18 at 15:43:31 You might want to check out the new Pioneer UDP-LX500 player. It's a high quality unit with an excellent built in DAC section. Lists at $999.99 Dan Wright of Modwright, who used to modify Oppo players is currently working on modifications for this unit. Used 203 and 205 Oppo's are now being sold for more money than original list prices, which speaks to their desirability on the open market. Keep in mind that the CD mechanism/laser assembly may fail at some point, making replacement complicated since Oppo is out of the audio business. Good luck with your search. NB |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by Showme on 12/30/18 at 16:30:30 Thanks guys your suggestion will help for sure. I’ll start searching. |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by Donnie on 12/30/18 at 21:08:00 Does your Sony have a digital output? If so just buy yourself a good DAC. I'm betting that the transport section in your Sony is just as good as any of the high falutin' players that others mention. Probably the same transport that the other guys are using. Just digital out into a decent DAC and live your life knowing that you are ahead of the game. |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by stone_of_tone on 12/30/18 at 21:25:10 Could not have said it better myself Donnie. |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by Showme on 12/30/18 at 21:38:27 Well that’s good to here. I’m currently running it into a Teac UT-503. Just thought maybe I was missing something. |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by Donnie on 12/30/18 at 21:48:54 With all of the money you just saved, buy yourself a good digital cable and some good interconnects and call it a day. |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by Showme on 12/30/18 at 22:02:45 Thanks Donnie. I think i’ve done that. Maybe the sound is better than I think. I’m a little isolated from other serious listeners so I read and start saying “what if”. |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by Lon on 12/30/18 at 23:05:36 Makes sense. I will say that I have heard significant differences between dedicated transports and those within a cd player used wit an outboard DAC. One can almost always do better. It's sort of a matter of how far you want to go. |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by StanleyG on 12/31/18 at 07:17:32 Very intrigued by the new-to-me idea of a belt driven cd transport (the CEC mentioned earlier in this thread), I have also read the very convincing ad copy about PS Audio's Memory Player and a few others. That said, the future of non-vinyl audio is arguably file-based playback, downloads, hi rez files, and (I hate to acknowledge it) Roon to manage it all. My point is that high quality one-off playback of individual cd's is becoming an anachronism and developing prices to match. My suggestion is to consider ripping those cd's for playback via server and/or dedicated file player even using your current DAC. That, or going big on a high end cd transport or player before they are unobtainable. |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by Lonely Raven on 01/02/19 at 07:35:53 It's a pain in the ass to rip CD collections to digital, but I'm so glad I did. 1300 CDs took 3 months to do, but having it all archived and backed up in two different places - I've been all digital for 5 years now and don't regret it at all. Ease of access, especially with great systems like Roon, and being able to have a simple, easy to upgrade system is amazing. I have an Endpoint (the device that feeds the music to the DAC, in this case a computer), a nice DAC (in this case the TEAC NT-503 or PS Audio DirectStream), and Decware amp. Done and done. If newer DAC technology comes out, I can swap in a new DAC in 5 minutes and go on with life. Love it. Sure, I sometimes miss the ritual of threading a reel to reel or dropping a needle, but I'm much happier now. :) |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by StanleyG on 01/02/19 at 23:15:53 1300 cd's ripped, OMG! Now I feel bad for suggesting if the OP has anywhere near that many. It is such a pain I have ripped only maybe 3 dozen personally. I sent 50 off to Murfie Music for them to rip and have about 200 discs there that I bought used through them (they are already ripped and downloadable, the physical discs are stored there). The rest of my digital files are paid downloads even though I often already own the cd, stored somewhere on some shelf, somewhere lost to time. Many downloads are high(er) resolution. That said, I prolly have less than 500 total (and maybe 300 un-ripped discs). Lately I have only bought downloads, some vinyl, and (fighting their reported failure in the marketplace) SACD's. I could actually play redbook cd's on my SACD player, but I vowed not to with intention to rip any I want to hear. Before Christmas I bought a microJukebox (dedicated, fully automatic cd ripper) from Small Green Computer, but I only tested maybe 3 cd's I had already ripped on a Mac. It works like a dream if I can ever get off my butt to use it. I think LR (or someone else here) makes and sells custom, audio-optimized PC's. He and others could advise much better on the challenging process I suggested but now sheepishly admit I have not really done myself. |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by Dominick on 01/03/19 at 06:46:17 StanleyG...it took me like 5 months to rip my 1000+ CD collection. It sometimes felt like a chore, so I did it at my leisure and took my time. One suggestion... I would rip them bit perfect and set the output to 2 separate files for each song. That way you create a full set for archival purposes only that is looseless, and the other set for playback only. If something happens with your playback files...you can recreate another digital file from the looseless archived file. For me...my archival file was FLAC, and my playback file was AIFF. I had also saved the log file for each rip as well. Both formats are considered looseless formats, but this would allow you to easily differentiate between the archived file, and the playback file. Like Eric...I have two copies of my archived music in two separate locations. One is on a NAS server/ RAID drive, and the other on a separate hard drive. At the time when I ripped my collection, I used XLD ripper for my MAC. But once I upgraded to High Sierra, the XLD ripper does not have an update as of yet. I believe guys are now using dbPoweramp for Mac as their choice ripper. Just some food for thought. |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by Lonely Raven on 01/03/19 at 14:35:46 Same thing I did to rip, just did 3-5 CDs a night for months while watching TV, cooking, eating, whatever. Once you get it setup and started, the rest is waiting. And not all my discs were in great shape, so the software would try and try again. I think dbPoweramp is used quite often - I use EAC (Exact Audio Copy) to archive my CDs, because it's been a standard with some of the musicians, and audio groups I've been in. The key is using a ripping software with "Accurate Rip" http://www.accuraterip.com/ which compares your bit perfect rip with a worldwide database. If the "Hash" of your rip matches the hash that everyone else in the world got, you know you have a bit perfect representation of the disc. That's one of the things I setup when I build Audio PCs for people. EAC is clunky, but it was the defacto standard. I've been thinking about trying dbPoweramp to see if it's faster in some way, assuming it still uses AccurateRip. |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by ScottNC on 01/03/19 at 15:40:59 StanleyG, I’m surprised Small Green Computer isn’t on your radar, you have dealt with them before it looks like. Give Andrew Gilliam a call and discuss your situation with him. He set me up with my SONICTRANSPORTER AP I7 4TB (ROON SERVER) and I am really happy with it. It (depending on the disc) takes me roughly 10 minutes give or take to rip a perfect copy of any disc. It’s a great companion to the gear you already have and can be had in many configurations. Anyway, food for thought, maybe you have explored this and for some reason it didn’t appeal. Best, Scott |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by StanleyG on 01/03/19 at 23:50:09 I got my dedicated cd-ripper (microJukebox) from those guys. I almost bought the rack-mountable version that could also run Roon. If only they would come to my house and pump the discs though the machine for me :). But rethinking the overhead involved in converting to file-based playback (though technically cd's are just media from which files are read) as well as the computer-level file management and ethernet networking involved (if one goes that way), is cd playback through those spendy transports (ie, PS Audio Memory Player or even the less spendy Cambridge, etc) as good as or any better than file-based playback from a server? |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by Lonely Raven on 01/09/19 at 16:46:39 I haven't heard all that gear your asking about, in fact, I'd really like to put the PS Audio Memory player side by side with my Audio Computer and see which sounds better. That said, anything you can do to reduce jitter in your chain will give you the best sound. I've listened to multi-thousand dollar transports hooked up to a DAC that got trumped by a flash drive with the same CD on it, plugged directly into the same DAC. Many in the Bits-is-Bits camp will say this is bullshit, but the designers of this gear even admitted it's possible because of the reduction of jitter. You can spend thousands on a transport to get super isolated power supplies and the best components and all that to reduce jitter - or you can simply bypass all that and plug a $30 flash drive into the same DAC and get equal or better results. So I'd speculate a device like the PS Audio Memory Player would trump most other CD players or Transports because the whole purpose of the buffer (and the I2S if you have a PS Audio Direct Stream!!!) is to reduce jitter. A simple $300 beater computer with good bit perfect software could blow away a $3000 transport, or it could sound way worse, again, because of jitter. Cost wise, I think playing files from a PC will get you better sound (less jitter) than high dollar gear, unless it's something purpose built like the PS Audio Memory Player to DirestStream which has so many advantages I expect it would spank any computer system I could build (that is built for less than the Memory Player costs). Still, I'd love to take the Pepsi challenge and see if I could build a cheap PC that bests the Memory Player or other high end transport. It might provide insights into how to make the PC better. |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by lazb on 01/09/19 at 17:45:01 LR, have you looked at the "digital lens" buffering to see if you could implement it on your streamer computers? The PS Audio streamer in the works is reportedly going to be another in the same price class as the DS and MP. Lots of folks cannot afford that.(me included) |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by Lonely Raven on 01/09/19 at 19:10:21 My DirectStream has a form of the Digital Lens buffer in the Bridge II network interface if I recall correctly. I'm not sure there is anything like that, software wise, that could be done on the PC. That kind of memory buffer (which is what the digital lens is) is something that usually gets implemented on the DAC....because that's where the jitter needs to be filtered out just before it hits the DAC chip. Doing it on the PC *might* help, but then you're still at the mercy of your interface and cable *between* the PC and the DAC. For example, we do some sort of Memory Player buffering magic on the PC and reduce the jitter from 10 to 5 (just making up arbitrary numbers for my example), but then you go out an optical port and it's 50 cent (from the lowest bidder) converter, through your fancy $300 TOSLINK cable, and now your DAC converts it through it's $1 (from the lowest bidder) converter and it gains 10 jitter....your total jitter would be 15. Better than without - but your real goal would be to have that Digital Lens technology right where the data is coming in, buffer and reclock to reduce that jitter to my arbitrary example of 5. Where a combo like the PS Audio Memory Player and DirectStream knock all the other systems on their butts, is because the Memory Player takes your data in the buffer getting you my imaginary measurement of only 5 jitter, then feeds that data directly to the DAC chip via I2S. I2S being the native interface of DAC chips, it doesn't need to go through any jitter causing 50 cent interfaces. At least that's how I understand it. Ted Smith says it's all a moot point because the DirectStream ignores any clock information so the external jitter is a non issue....but then I wonder why the I2S sounds that much better? Again, my point is all about Jitter - so in the end it's really your DAC that will make the *biggest* impact on jitter reduction and sound quality - but I still feel the better the signal is you can give your DAC to work with, then less it has to work to make it sound good. (shrug). I hope some of that made sense. It's tough because every DAC does it's thing differently (at the audiophile level) depending on how the designer tackles their goals (and their budget). |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by Lon on 01/09/19 at 19:30:11 Lonely Raven wrote on 01/09/19 at 19:10:21:
Eric, a few months ago I splurged on a very good AES/EBU 110 ohm cable to connect the DMP to the DSD with that format just for the heck of it, to hear if there is an appreciable difference. "Is I2S via HDMI all that much better" . . . well the answer is it is noticeably different. Using HDMI output to connect to the DSD (with PS Audio's top of the line HDMI cable, all silver) the sound is a bit more "tight" than via the AES/EBU XLR. A tiny bit more ambient detail, a tiny bit more "air" in the treble. The AES/EBU has a smidgeon softer sound, which actually was what I was hoping for--it actually is just a bit better for playback of certain cds, especially older ones, that are a bit edgy in their playback. (The HDMI I2S has one other advantage: it is the only way to pass DSD from SACD from the DMP to the DSD). The only reason I can think of that the I2S may sound a bit better is that perhaps the file data and clock data are still separate and only separated clock data reaches the master clock. . . I don't know, I don't understand all this well enough and don't need to. Just need ears! I think the DMP to DSD gives the best sound I've heard from digital ever. (My one experience with digital engineer friend's network system feeding mine didn't sound "better" to me than my then PWT/PWD combo). I'm so glad I have it. I think the fact that all sources come out of the "Digital Lens" with negligible jitter and then all go to a master clock really helps all the sources to sound marvelous. I have so so many discs that ripping and streaming etc. just makes no sense to me and in any case it holds no interest. There are many ways to skin the digital cat, and options and choices are good things. |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by Lonely Raven on 01/09/19 at 21:17:00 Quote:
I still giggle at how I almost fell out of my chair when you told me how many CDs you have. I agree, that would be a non-starter for archiving - and I think you have the best setup you could have for CDs. I think I get what you're saying about the I2S vs AES/EBU - I could you see preferring the latter and myself the former. But you know, there's still guys out there that say we are deluding ourselves and cables don't matter...or our cables must be defective if we hear a difference. LOL |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by Lon on 01/09/19 at 21:23:57 Don't get me wrong--I only prefer the AES/EBU for some discs, I use the HDMI/I2S connection 99 percent of the time. It's just some poorly recorded or early pressed cds sound a bit better with the AES/EBU ever so slightly less detailed sound. PS Audio is a great company and I love the Duo I have and the P10. . . and I just got a NPC phono preamplifier via FedEx as I will have room to put vinyl back into the system when I move my system upstairs next month and that will be fun to play around with, using both the analog and HDMI/I2S outputs. (I sold my ZP3. . .I just wasn't using it and it is now enjoyed by Johnny. . . in time if I can keep selling equipment or start selling instruments and equipment I'll probably order a ZP3 with all the 25th Anniversary mods). |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by Geno on 01/28/19 at 20:26:44 Guys, It may be time to think about ripping your large CD collections. I have roughly 1500 CD's, a good many at least 30 years old. I've had 2 in the last month start sounding crazy. Not skipping, but the sound just breaking up real bad. I take very good care of my albums and CD's, so its not a handling issue. Bottom line is that a CD will not last forever, and that age may cause some kind of breakdown in chemistry. We are the testing community. Some of us were there to buy them from the beginning. Time will tell, but i don't want to lose what I have, so I'll soon get set up to rip mine. |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by Lon on 01/28/19 at 20:38:59 I've something like 25 to 30 thousand discs, and I began collecting over 30 years ago. I love music and kept collecting. I have only had CDR discs go bad, not CD discs, and very few of those. Life is too short for me to begin ripping! I love spinning discs and will continue. |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by Jeff of Arabica on 01/29/19 at 02:17:06 Very sound advice Geno! You are correct in that optical media is time limited. And Lon, if I were you, I wouldn't bother either. That is WAY too many discs to rip yourself. The only alternative is sending them out to be ripped by a service company. But then you must contend with the hassle of packaging them up and of course, the cost of the service itself. But, I would imagine you have a real asset in your collection so the small price per disc to pay to have them ripped by a third party would still be far outweighed by the value of that music, even in digital file form. |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by Geno on 01/29/19 at 02:26:27 I’d hate to think about tackling that project, Lon! I guess at this stage of the game, as far as you’re concerned, you can just replace any that might give you trouble. |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by Lon on 01/29/19 at 03:42:44 Jeff, that's probably true. But I don't want them ripped. I don't do computer audio, I don't use portable players, I don't want to do anything other than spin discs. And I haven't had "failures" to contend with and honestly don't expect to, and if I do, I can't say I don't have a lot more discs! I'll leave all the ripping, files and streaming to those who like that. I'm not among those. |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by JD on 01/29/19 at 11:53:42 I've got roughly 2 thousand discs I've been thinking of ripping, but also have a vinyl collection with a similar amount. Not sure if I want to rip them, I love the ritual of playing records. To those who have gone this route what did you use and were you happy with the results? I've noticed that there is a company small green audio that has a couple interesting cd rippers that also serve as servers...I know that many people have used some of their other products such as the Microrendu and rave about it. I've been hesitant to go the digital route but new advancements seem really promising. A lot of my listening is fm radio but i might need to put the horse away and buy an automobile so to speak. Thanks JD |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by Tripwr1964 on 01/29/19 at 23:02:55 dbpower amp and never look back. trust me you can get use to the convenience of having 2k worth of perfectly ripped cds at your finger tips, very quickly. just do a few at a time while on the computer and you'll be done quicker than you think. its so nice! ive been doing this for ~5yrs. yes it's a pain to get started, but after that... then back them up and give a friend a copy too. then you're covered. save the need to play something that spins for your analog rig. |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by Donnie on 01/29/19 at 23:16:40 Truthfully it is really easy to rip your CD's. I use my JRiver for the software part and the optical drive on my computer. When you want to listen to a CD put it in the computer and rip the silly thing. I see everyone saying about the thousands of CD's in their collections, are you listening to more than 1 at a time? Hell while you are listening to one you can rip others. This isn't rocket science Face it CD's are going away, you can't even get a CD player in a car anymore. Embrace the inevitable. |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by Lon on 01/30/19 at 00:50:42 Sorry guys, ripping cds seems such a waste of time for me as I have no intention of using rips. Personally I never listen on a computer so there would be no ripping as I listen going on. Enjoy the ripping and the files! I'm enjoying my discs. |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by Archie on 01/30/19 at 00:55:46 The issue I have with digitally stored music is how one figures out what to listen to. I sometimes need to scan my collection and I guess I don't relate well to lists of titles. Does anyone else have this problem? |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by Donnie on 01/30/19 at 01:16:14 Archie, On JRiver you can scroll through all of your album covers if you would like. I like looking at mine by artist and then going down from there. Truthfully, most of the time I just let the software pick what to listen to because, well, I'm lazy that way. https://www.jriver.com/index.html |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by JD on 01/30/19 at 12:48:52 There are so many different ways to do it but it looks like Lonely Raven's computer set up is the easiest and most cost effective way to get going. JD ps. sometimes Donnie I cram 3 cd's in the drive at the same time in an attempt to get 3d sound, mind bending sound! |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by Tripwr1964 on 01/30/19 at 18:24:00 @lon most aren't listening to them on computer. i am using dbpoweramp to rip them using my computers cd drive. they are ripped to a unique internal hd that i use as a "server". they are perfect flac file rips. you can do anything with them from there. i use Daphile (it's like jriver) as my headless OS and a player (like the ones lonely raven builds (i build my own), or use an intel nuc). i control it with anything on my network (phone, pc, tablet, etc..). i have 3x of these setups in my house that all pull flac file music from that "server" on my pc. now, using os's like daphile, jriver, roon, etc... you can play other things too. i enjoy streaming radio paradice using a daphile addon. i love spinning a lp, but most of the time i just want to sit back and relax and this setup allows for that. |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by Lon on 01/30/19 at 18:45:51 Cool, I was referring to Donnie who was saying just listen and rip at the same time from a computer. (I don't even have a computer, I have a Mac laptop without a disc drive and I haven't bought an external drive for it as I really have no need for one). I don't have a phone connected to the internet or any apps to play files with etc. and no need to do so . . . I have my transport/DAC duo, my tuner, my phono preamp and turntable. . . . I know there are many ways to skin a cat with digital music. I love discs and handling and looking through discs and this has ended up with me having a ton of them. I get fantastic sound with my transport and DAC and don't have to constantly fiddle with software, programs, servers etc. as I see so many doing for the "convenience" of streaming and computer audio. I don't do audio on the go except the cd player in my car, etc. and I haven't yet heard another set up that sounds better than mine does in my own home so I have no need to rip etc. and no desire or even curiosity to move in that direction. I have plenty of time to just relax into the music! I get that many really enjoy that direction and I say tally ho! |
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Title: Re: CD player Post by Tripwr1964 on 01/30/19 at 19:42:58 gotcha! i forget some/most don't have big pc with all that shit on them anymore. |
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