Post by Lonely Raven on 11/29/18 at 15:45:45
I'm looking forward to the Gold Pressed Latinum version of these speaker wires.
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https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl AUDIO FORUMS >> D.I.Y. >> DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1531941351 Message started by BadWolf on 07/18/18 at 20:15:51 |
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Title: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/18/18 at 20:15:51 Over the years I have never invested much in speaker cables, mostly because I’ve always intended to make my own. What I’ve been using isn’t horrible, but pretty bottom barrel as far as most audiophiles would be concerned. Well now I’m going to attempt to change that starting with two 10 troy ounce silver bullion bars. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/18/18 at 20:17:23 The silver. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/18/18 at 21:06:27 To make the bar into a ribbon I’ll be running it through a rolling mill. Each time I’ll make it a few thousandths of an inch thinner and a little longer. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/18/18 at 21:13:07 After a few passes through the mill the metal will work harden and need to be annealed. This involves heating the silver to around 1,200 degrees F and quenching in water. Failure to anneal the metal will make it increasingly hard to work and eventually lead to cracks. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by Donnie on 07/18/18 at 22:58:21 How thin are you planning on going? How do you control the width? I'm intrigued. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by Archie on 07/18/18 at 23:01:44 How will you keep it from getting wider too? A few years ago I made speaker cables out of 14 gage silver wire. I read on one DIY site that "dead soft" silver gave the best sound. EDIT: Donnie beat me to it! >:( |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/18/18 at 23:55:15 Actually the rolling mill only lengthens in one direction, so as long as I don’t put it through sideways the width will stay the same. I hope to get it to about 10 feet long, I’m not sure what the thickness will be by then. Hopefully thick enough, if not I’ll stop before then. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/19/18 at 00:01:36 Wow, this is exhausting. The rolling mill is not powered, so all the energy to thin and lengthen the metal is coming from me. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/19/18 at 00:03:56 Some progress. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by Archie on 07/19/18 at 00:10:15 What is the advantage of ribbon over wire? |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/19/18 at 00:27:02 I’m not sure as far as audio goes. I have seen some ribbon cables used on really high end systems. I’ve also read their praise here and there. For me though, the advantage is I can make ribbon from an ingot, I’m not setup to make it into wire. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/19/18 at 01:48:57 Sometimes the metal gets kind of wavy. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/19/18 at 01:52:01 I’m starting with just one of the ingots to see how it goes. I’ll include the untouched one in some of the photos for comparison. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/19/18 at 02:57:37 Some good progress. It’s gotten a bit big for the annealing pan. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by deucekazoo on 07/19/18 at 14:22:52 That's going to be a lot of work. Looking good so far. What are you going to cover it with? |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/19/18 at 16:15:27 Yeah it really is a ton of work, and to think I’ll have to do it all again for the second one. I am planning on covering them with fabric. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/19/18 at 16:22:59 Some significant progress. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/19/18 at 16:26:44 I’ve marked it to cut in half. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/19/18 at 16:35:47 Now cutting it in half. This was obviously a mistake waiting until it was this thin to cut it. I did it because I thought it would be less work to roll one piece than two, but the issue is the shear really doesn’t like to cut metal that is this thin and soft. It’s harder to cut accurately and the cut is a bit more like a tear than cut. Oh well, it’ll work, and I won’t make the same mistake on the next one. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/19/18 at 17:14:45 Ribbons! Finally. Although still more rolling to do as they aren’t long enough yet. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/19/18 at 18:17:09 It fits in the annealing pan again. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/19/18 at 19:18:20 Close enough… Just under 10 feet. It picked up a bend around 5 feet that I hoped I’d be able to fix when I cut it into two and with a rolling mill adjustment. I think the adjustment helped but the damage was already done. Hopefully with the adjustment the next one will be straighter. So it seems that despite being as thin as it is, because of its width, it is roughly equivalent to 10 gauge wire. As in one foot of this weighs about the same as one foot of 10 gauge wire. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/19/18 at 19:23:12 Now to do it all again… |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by Jeff of Arabica on 07/19/18 at 19:37:01 Nice work Badwolf. They look great! Do you know how you will terminate them? Also, I hear silk is a great insulator. Out of curiosity, what did you pay for each bar of silver? |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/19/18 at 20:26:45 Thanks! I was planning to cut slots in the ends so they could be clamped in binding posts. I like that because there would be no additional connections of any kind. I’m not liking it so much now because when annealed (which is apparently most desirable) it is extremely soft and fragile being so thin. So I’m really not sure now. When I cut the ends off I’ll do some experimenting with those pieces to see what might be best. I like the idea of silk. As shown in the picture above they are about half hard. They are a little springy and don’t want to fold and would work pretty well just covered in a fabric. If I anneal them, making them dead soft, there are some issues. They easily twist and fold under their own weight. It’s hard to think of any comparison, but if you ever saw the Mythbusters make a lead balloon, it’s kind of like that. It’s thicker and stronger than the lead, and not prone to tearing, but it really just collapses under its own weight. I’ve worked with silver a lot and was shocked just how soft it became in this configuration. So the two options I have thought of to solve this problem are to leave it half hard like it is and insulate it with fabric, or anneal it and reinforce it somehow possibly using tape or something like it. I don’t really like the tape option as it seems kind of cheap and would breakdown in a few years and just make a mess. I bought the sliver years ago and am not sure about the price, probably around $130 a bar. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by Lonely Raven on 07/19/18 at 21:16:27 This is friggen amazing! I'm glad I clicked on the forums today! I'm looking forward to you finishing this up, and maybe stopping by for a listen! |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by Jeff of Arabica on 07/19/18 at 21:23:54 I bet you could use a sharp pizza cutter on a wood cutting block to cut in half since it is so thin. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/19/18 at 22:28:50 Thanks LR! I do hope to finish in a few days. That’d be great if you want to stop by and have a listen. You’d also be better able to describe the difference they make. Jeff I wouldn’t be surprised if it could be cut with a sharp pizza cutter. Thanks for the suggestion. Although I think I’ll try halving it while it’s thicker. It means more rolling, but the rolling is easier because of the reduced width. It might help me control the bending a bit better too. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/20/18 at 00:48:40 I couldn’t help it. I just had to do a measurement out of curiosity. Just how much resistance does 10 feet of pure silver ribbon have? Well, less than this can measure. The meter’s leads have been removed from this measurement by connecting them together and then using the delta function. Otherwise they’d add .16 ohms. I expected a low resistance, but I didn’t expect it to show zero on the meter. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/20/18 at 00:53:52 Silk it is for the covering thanks to my girlfriend! Who will also be kind enough to sew it on. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by deucekazoo on 07/20/18 at 17:25:40 Can't wait to see these finished and what you think of the sound. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/20/18 at 18:26:58 I’ve decided how I’m going to terminate them. I’m going to cut a slit in the middle and then fold them to fit in the binding post. It’s a delicate and time consuming process. I like it though because it keeps all the metal involved all the way to the binding post, it also gives some much needed strength to that area. Short of using a micro press brake it’ll be very hard to do this and make it look good, though I hope to do better on my next attempt. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/20/18 at 18:28:42 A closeup. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/20/18 at 18:32:46 A really closeup. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/20/18 at 21:05:04 A detail of the folding in progress. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/20/18 at 21:06:47 Another. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/20/18 at 21:14:24 One more. This one shows the sides in the process of being folded over with a gradual taper to the connection point. This gives some added rigidity near the connector and makes the connection point narrow so as not to cause a short. So far I’m happy with this way of doing it but only time will tell if it was a good way to do it or not. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/20/18 at 21:25:25 Well there's the first pair. Now they just need the fabric covering and I can try them out. The rain has delayed the rolling of the second pair, as I anneal outside. The bar is about a foot long right now, so still aways to go. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/21/18 at 02:56:41 Second pair to length. These are much straighter than the first pair. The mill adjustments worked. The difference between these and the first pair was accomplished by adjusting one side of the top roller by one thousandth of an inch down relative the the other side. Cutting before it got really thin was a much better way to go as well. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/21/18 at 21:15:54 One pair done. Preliminary impressions to follow. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/21/18 at 21:57:41 Wow! The difference is staggering! I have the ribbons on one side and my normal cables on the other. I’m struggling to find words to describe this. The detail and clarity on the ribbon side is breathtaking. It actually reminds me of the OTL (I’m using my Torii MKIV). The side with my old cables sounds dull, quiet, lifeless, and actually kind of unpleasant to listen to in comparison. I honestly thought I might have a hard time hearing a difference. I should have made these years ago… |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by will on 07/21/18 at 22:14:06 Nice Badwolf. Pure silver that gauge without skin effect must be amazing! |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by Donnie on 07/22/18 at 00:37:53 How will you keep it from tarnishing? Or does that even matter? Maybe a layer of oxidation will help. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by Jeff of Arabica on 07/22/18 at 02:15:34 I can’t imagine the oxidation being a good thing but I’m sure someone has figured that out by now and has reported on such. But then again, this industry is full of assumptions so maybe the natural assumption is that oxidized Silver is a bad thing. Where’s the A/B test data? The silk sleeve has room. Simply disconnect, slide out of silk insulator, remove oxidation with appropriate cleaner, re-insert in silk and reconnect. Probably a 6-month maintenance task. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/22/18 at 03:30:57 I thought about trying to prevent tarnishing but decided against it because I didn’t want to chance altering the sound. I’m not sure if tarnish itself will have and effect or not. I can take them out of their fabric coverings easily and remove tarnish if it seems to be an issue. I may have to do some experiments with shorter runs of silver wire or smaller ribbon. Such as chemically tarnish one pair until it’s black, polish the other pair, and then cover both so I can’t tell which is which and see if I prefer one set over the other. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by will on 07/22/18 at 03:32:13 Here, in the dry desert, tarnish on silver just has not been much of a thing. I have a remnant spool of raw, soft/pure silver that has been sitting out since 2011 or 12 and only has a little yellowing, so little I can wipe it off with my fingers. Some silver in cotton from 2008 shows a little more corrosion, a little darker, but not looking threatening to me...still looks like silver with a film on it, more oxidized though. Silver oxide is said to be a good conductor. Silver sulfide, supposedly caused by sulfur in the air or handling without gloves, not so good of a conductor. I wear cotton gloves, and lightly polish with fine steel wool before putting on a covering. I also have a bunch of stuff to experiment with to protect and seal silver in teflon...nitrogen gas and different ways of sealing the oversized teflon, but have not gone there yet. Edit: BTW, those silvers I mentioned are in several ICs and speaker cables that still sound amazing! On my speaker cables I did wrap the ends of the oversized teflon tube where it met the raw wire with teflon tape to mitigate air transfer. And some old silver/cotton wire from VHAudio, the cotton cover is a complex weave and seems to be effective to some degree, the wire cleaner under the cotton. These days, whether cotton or teflon tube, I am wrapping/"sealing" the ends in teflon tape once a wire seems a solid improvement in my amps or cables. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by lazb on 07/22/18 at 19:37:31 Seems I remember a conversation with Steve regarding the silver tarnishing and he said it did not effect the sound one bit. Basically that it was just something that audiophiles obsessed about. ::) |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 07/22/18 at 20:05:12 That’s excellent to hear lazb. I won’t worry about it then. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by Archie on 07/23/18 at 00:37:05 I've always read that silver oxide conducts electricity even better than the silver. Which seems to say that it is a non-issue. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by Lonely Raven on 07/31/18 at 16:11:11 Yeah, I agree with Archie, oxidized silver doesn't weaken the quality of connection like it does with gold or especially copper. Next time I come over to listen to the OTL, I'll bring some Zen Styx wire so we can compare. If you're flatwire surpasses that, I think I'd be asking you to flatten a couple Oz for me! (I can sew the silk covers myself). |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by Lon on 07/31/18 at 16:19:42 But gold doesn't really oxidize. . . that's why the aliens came here in the past to make humans and have humans mine it for them, don't you know! :) |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 08/02/18 at 17:14:41 LR that’d be great! I’m really looking forward to comparing what I’ve made to the Zen Styx. For now I’ve settled on using the cables with my Torii MKIV and Tang Band speakers and am still very happy with them. I tried them with a Mini Torii and MTM “El Caminos” in a better room. The difference was much harder to hear which really surprised me, especially as so much of the improvement seems to be in the highs, and the El Caminos can go higher than the Tang Bands. I wonder if some of the gains from the cables were lost in the crossovers, or maybe the room being so much more absorbent had something to do with it. I suppose the Tang Band naturally boosting the highs a bit might make the difference more obvious as well. I have some plans to continue this ribbon cable theme onto some more projects when I get a chance. I’d like to eliminate the weak link that’s inside the speaker cabinet by replacing the normal copper wire with silver ribbon. Although I don’t plan to modify the El Caminos. I also thought it would be interesting to make two pairs of speaker cables from a single 10 ounce bar of silver. These would be half the width of the ones I have already made, and would be equivalent to between 12 and 14 gauge. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by Lonely Raven on 08/06/18 at 20:06:38 For such a short distance, 12 or 14 AWG is plenty fine! At least you can get to the crossover on the El Camino. I'm still grumbling that I can't even find the crossover on my MG-944. :P |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by will on 08/07/18 at 01:30:58 Badwolf. With my Toriis, when changing speaker cable gauge (within a sort of normal range) there is a shift in the balance and power of the presentation. With relatively neutral wires, most noticeable here is bass power, the mids and highs being more or less focussed too, but less obvious. I guess bass waves being tricky in most rooms present a narrower balance for the best sound. Different wires sound pretty different to me too, but with a given wire, smaller gauge here shifts the balance toward less intensity and bass, and bigger gauge, more, eventually saturating bass. At some point it goes from tighter and big, toward thickness and muddled. So if your bass needs leaning/tightening, or to be less dominant in the overall balance, a smaller gauge silver ribbon might well help. I wonder if this may be part of the difficulty in hearing the difference in your mini/camino system. If the bass dominates in the balance too much, it could be masking mids and highs. The last time I made speaker cables I ended up using 4 different wire types to get the sound I wanted. I was trying NOS WE 16 gauge stranded/tinned copper. Trying just one 16 gauge WE wire shifted the system/room balance I had way toward lean, though it had a seductive upper mid quality. Adding another WE per connection, bass came up, but also the WE upper mid sweetness began to sizzle. 3 WE wires made the bass pretty good, but the mids even more focussed, sounding hard and unnatural. Keeping the overall gauge close, I changed one WE wire at a time. 1st was a solid/soft silver, and the 2nd, solid copper (both in oversized teflon). Both changes were quite obvious and the sound became really good with one WE balanced with the silver and copper. May be a blessing in disguise that the ribbon, a very transparent and revealing cable conceptually, and as evidenced in your other system, was hard to hear in Mini/Camino system. Could well be some other issue like absorption as you suggest, but even though crossovers can be heard, I would think the Caminos should have plenty of innate clarity for your silver ribbon to show pretty clearly compared to many cables. Makes me guess gauge or something else might be bigger player(s)??? LR, My 944s were made with only a cap going to the tweeter, no inductor. The cap was mounted on the inside of the binding post cover. I think Bob started using coils at some point. If yours have inductors, not sure where Bob would put it, but when I tried the ones he sent me, I mounted them by pulling the front driver...if I recall correctly, the bottom one, in front of the binding post cover giving wire access (???). The speakers were more controlled sounding with the inductor if I recall, but I seemed to prefer the speed and punch I was used to without. Cap changes were fun. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by Lonely Raven on 08/07/18 at 15:46:05 Quote:
I have one of, if not *the* last MG-944 that was supposed to be for Bob himself. It has a proper crossover in it so it's not as efficient as the cap only earlier version...and he buried the crossover inside the cabinet as the side panel was glued on I think...so without cutting it open, I just can't see it. :P I really wanted to try cap only and see how mine sounds, but got frustrated and have just been enjoying them as they are for the past 5 years. ;D |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by will on 08/07/18 at 16:59:00 Hey Raven, I guess if you wanted to experiment you could figure out a good way to run new wires. Maybe disconnect the current wires at the binding post interior and likewise at the drivers, leaving them available to re-hook if you want? Then install a cap before new wires going to the tweeter, and run new wires direct to the mid-bass drivers? The cap mounted on, or near the back of the binding post cover is a handy place for experimenting with different caps if that seems interesting. You could even put in your own coil setup in a more easy to access place to experiment with if something in between what Bob decided on and no coil seemed advantageous to your sound. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by Palomino on 08/10/18 at 21:12:49 Great project BadWolf. Would love to hear them! |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 08/14/18 at 19:28:12 LR that’s good to know I can get to the crossovers on the El Caminos. I have never looked. Although I still doubt I’ll do anything to them being one of a kind and that I’m very happy with them. Like Will said it very well could be something else making the difference harder to tell. I don’t have a listening room good enough to get really serious about figuring the differences out yet, but plans have been made to gut the bedroom and turn it into a dedicated listening space. In the meantime we’ll be making an effort to improve the current space some too by adding some diffusers and absorption. Thank you for your comments Will. You mention a few things I’ve never thought about. Palomino you’re always welcome to stop by, just let me know. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by Palomino on 08/14/18 at 21:43:44 Would they be too fragile to bring to the Sept. DAC comparo? We need to look for a date that works for the DAC off. I'd like to do it before Decfest if possible. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 08/14/18 at 23:12:46 They’re not particularly fragile so moving them around isn’t an issue. However if we are using the OTL there is an issue, they don’t actually fit on the OTL because it has a shroud on two of its binding posts. I knew this when I made them, I just never came up with a satisfactory solution. I figured I’d either make a silver adapter of some sort, or an additional set of cables that would fit such as the smaller ones I’ve mentioned. It may actually be just as well because comparing at least three DACs will probably be enough to do without throwing cable comparisons into the mix. I may bring them to Decfest if people are interested. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by ossidian on 11/27/18 at 21:37:04 Simply amazing concept. I am tossing my zip cord and building a pair as you kindly demonstrated. Thanks BadWolf! |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by Lonely Raven on 11/29/18 at 15:45:45 I'm looking forward to the Gold Pressed Latinum version of these speaker wires. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 03/04/20 at 21:21:06 I finally got around to making that second set I mentioned, and this time I made a video of the process! https://youtu.be/0OEVTaSCHk4 |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by Archie on 03/04/20 at 23:20:13 Loved your video. I'm not subscribed to youtube or I'd have given a thumbs up! Next time, put some commentary in it. :) It's still amazing to me that the width doesn't change with all of the rolling. I assume you were heating it to take the hardness out of it. Why the quenching? I didn't see you quench as the ribbon got thinner though. |
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Title: Re: DIY Pure Silver Ribbon Speaker Cables Post by BadWolf on 03/05/20 at 00:43:43 Thanks Archie! When I was learning metalworking I made the mistake of thinking rolling would make the metal wider as well as longer. This resulted me in ending up with a much narrower piece of metal than I needed to finish my project, which in turn made finishing the project far more difficult than it needed to be. So I haven’t made that mistake again. It makes since though, there is nothing in rolling that is pushing the metal sideways. That project was the first time I rolled out a 10oz silver bar actually, I made a silver flask out of it. Correct, the heating anneals the metal softening it. Every time I’d heat the metal I’d also quench it even though it became less obvious with the big bucket. Intrigued by your question of why the quench I did a quick bit of research, as otherwise my answer would be that’s just how I learned to do it. So with fine silver it seems either air cooling or quenching in water give about the same result. Air cooling would take longer, but also save me the hassle of having to dry the metal before working it. I’ll have to give that a try sometime. Thanks for the question. |
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