Forums https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl AUDIO FORUMS >> General Discussion and Support >> New Memeber... needing advice https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1522168776 Message started by MMac on 03/27/18 at 17:39:36

Title: New Memeber... needing advice Post by MMac on 03/27/18 at 17:39:36 Hello All, I am excited to be here and wanted to say hello.  I have been reading the forums for a while now, and figured it was time to stop hiding in the shadows.  I don't currently own any Decware amps, but plan on changing that.  I listen to both vinyl (more so recently) and digital, with a pair of Zu Omen Mkii's.   So... the big question, what amp do I want?  I had been leaning towards the Torii mk4, but keep reading and enjoy hearing about the 25th anniversary amps. Beyond the cost possibly being comparable, what are each of these amps able to do that make them a good choice?...  And maybe, what would I be forfeiting by choosing one over the other? Any info or thoughts would be appreciated!

Title: Re: New Memeber... needing advice Post by Archie on 03/27/18 at 17:59:10 I was just talking with Steve about a different issue but we discussed the anniversary amp a bit.   My takeaway is that you really ought to have the proper room and speakers to really take advantage of this amp.  For example, with my huge room and 92.5db HR1s, I'd only get a "taste" of what the amp is capable of.

Title: Re: New Memeber... needing advice Post by MMac on 03/27/18 at 19:28:11 Thanks Archie, That makes sense.  I dont know how much i can dedicate right now to a proper room.  I know Steve mentioned the Betsy speakers as a way to help the anniversary amps capture the 3D imaging in an otherwise regular room.  Its something I have considerd if the 25th amp was something I was going to commit to.   Any members out there that own a torii and UFO amp, maybe you could mention what you like about either or

Title: Re: New Memeber... needing advice Post by Lon on 03/27/18 at 22:28:37 I have had three of the 2 watt Zen amps, the 6 watt integrated, Toriis Mk II and Mk III and Taboo Mk III and Mk IV. I have ZERO experience with Zu nor have I lived ling with any high efficiency speakers. Reading this forum there are those who think that the 2 watt amps (whether Anniversary or not) don't have enough "Oomph" with Zus. But my personal experience is that the 3 watt Taboo amps sound really good with the HR-1s which are not high efficiency. . . (albeit when given a ton of gain at the input via the ZTPRE and ZROCK2). . . . So my guess is that unless you want to try to reproduce symphonic crescendos or stadium rock vibration these may well be fine with the Zus. My take on the amplification is . . .the Zens and Taboo are direct and honest amps, they'll show you what you have in your system and what is on the recordings and sometimes. . . it's not pleasant. If you have a lot of mediocre material to listen to and want to just listen without being really critical. . . they may not be the best fit. The Rachel is a bit more forgiving, and the Toriis are a bit less forgiving than the Rachel but a bit more than the Zens and Taboos. And all of this can be influenced, altered, and perhaps even flipped in any of the amps with tube and cabling and power and isolation choices . . . . So I hope I'm indicating that it's not an easy question to answer and many of us have taken leaps of faith and then taken smaller steps towards "the ideal sound" they have as a goal. (And that ideal sound can be very different for each of us!) So I would do one's best to determine that you have a speaker and amp match. . . . Steve may be the best one to help determine that, certainly other Zu owners here will have some wisdom. After that, decide if you want "ruthless honesty" or "a bit of forgiveness". . . .

Title: Re: New Memeber... needing advice Post by MMac on 03/27/18 at 23:26:53 Thanks Lon, I do appreciate the fact that my question is not easy to answer.  I also agree, that regardless of my choice, it will require a leap of faith (which I’m looking forward to).   I will welcome any info Zu owners have in terms of their impressions more so than which amp I should choose... also, I clearly need to make some time to call Steve

Title: Re: New Memeber... needing advice Post by RF on 03/28/18 at 04:33:51 Hi MMac, I asked same question for my ZUs couple weeks ago... got very good feedback from many on this thread. My conclusion is to start with something secondhand to get the feet in the door of Decware. If you like something that can rockout once in a while or have a large room 2w might not be enough. I am in market for used ufo2 or tori or jr in good condition to start slow and get familiar with tube before going new route... Thanks, RF

Title: Re: New Memeber... needing advice Post by Lon on 03/28/18 at 14:34:26 RF, maybe you have seen this, but it's an interesting article by Steve. The Decware Amplifier Buying Guide https://www.decware.com/newsite/buyingguide.html

Title: Re: New Memeber... needing advice Post by RF on 03/28/18 at 16:19:12 Hi Lon, Yes I saw that. I am hoping lot of people will be upgrading to 25th anniversary and in process some may sell torii jr or toriimk3/4.. I am hoping to find a good one second hand. Thanks, RF

Title: Re: New Memeber... needing advice Post by MMac on 03/28/18 at 16:27:10 Hi RF, Thanks for your input.  I too love my Zu's and have been contemplating moving up their line...  What do you like about your Soul Supremes in comparison to the DW's... I have the Omen mk ii's which i believe are fairly similar to the DW's, and am interested in what Soul Supremes bring out in the music...

Title: Re: New Memeber... needing advice Post by alper_yilmaz on 03/28/18 at 16:41:20 Hi MMac, I am almost positive that even the lowest-output Decware amp would work quite fine with your Omen's unless you are looking for crazy levels of volume.  I am driving 91dB B&W's with my SE84UFO.  The B&W's I have are a 2.5-way system with a crossover that must be soaking most of the signal and still sound satisfactory in terms of volume.  I am not sure, though, if mine are the 4-ohm or the 8-ohm version.   Also, please note that there is so much detail you will hear from the Decware/Zu combination that you might not even need high volumes; i.e. your listening habits might even change... If I were in your position, I would start with a version of the SE84UFO.  These have amazing second-hand value actually, so if you are not satisfied you can always sell them at a great price anyway.  I would not go for any passive or active sub at this time either.  Just buy the SE84, feed it with a high-output source; I would say at least with 4-5 volts (by the way, this is not based on any actual measuring, but rather my experience with low-wattage Decware amps in general).  If the bass is not satisfactory, you can look into some mechanical coupling through the placement of your speakers.  You might end up with some boomy bass, but again, there is no recipe for this that I know of; it is just trial and error. If you cannot get decent bass from your Omen's this way, I do not think it is the amp, but rather the speakers; and increasing the power of the amp would help just a bit, but not a lot.  This is based on my experience with my Omega Hoyt-Bedfords with moving from an SE34I.2+ to a TORII mkII (from 4-5 watts/ch into 25-26 watts). With any Decware amp, I believe you won't be disappointed.  It is more the other components in your system that might give you headache, but at least Decware has amazing second-hand value, so I believe it is a safe investment.   If the above does not satisfy you, then you should start considering passive subs, etc...  But one step at a time...  IMO and IME...  :) Best, Alper

Title: Re: New Memeber... needing advice Post by RF on 03/29/18 at 04:07:33 Hi MMac, Little bit about me:  I am not an audiophile and I don’t have the ability to tell all the details... but I am an audio enthusiast who loves to listen to music little kid with base. That being said... DWs and omens are very similar... but soul supremes are  different league... that radion tweeter with clarity caps sounds amazing. Also mid century looks are just perfect. Just like DWs... the base  is little less for my taste so I added the zu sub... the combo is great... my sub is connected directly to amp using speaker wire... Let us know what you decide. Thanks, RF

Title: Re: New Memeber... needing advice Post by TheTakeOut on 04/02/18 at 03:37:44 alper_yilmaz what do you mean when you say feed the SE84 with a high output source.  Do you mean a preamp with lots of gain?   Out of curiosity, will you get a sound that is more full if you use the SE84 with a decware preamp or if you just use an amp with more watts like the Torii Jr or the Torii Mk4? Thanks!

Title: Re: New Memeber... needing advice Post by alper_yilmaz on 04/02/18 at 04:33:12 Yes, a preamp with high gain, I meant... I am not familiar with the Jr, but I used to have a TORII mkII and it could definitely drive relatively less efficient speakers and sounded quite full to me in my setup.  But there is this charm of the SE84, particularly after the UFO upgrade, that I fell in love with.  So, if you can match it with a decent pair of speakers, that’s it!  :) A.

Title: Re: New Memeber... needing advice Post by MMac on 04/02/18 at 15:12:13 Alper, are the UFO transformers only on the SET amps?  Is there a reason why the Torii doesn't use the UFO transformers (or maybe it does, I'm confused)?

Title: Re: New Memeber... needing advice Post by Lon on 04/02/18 at 15:17:25 The UFO transformers are also in the SEP amplifier, the Taboo Mk IV, and in the Mini Torii and the Zen Torii Jr.

Title: Re: New Memeber... needing advice Post by MMac on 04/02/18 at 16:21:31 Are there any plans for the Torii mk 4 to get the UFO transformers?  I don't see that as an option in the amp page description...

Title: Re: New Memeber... needing advice Post by Lon on 04/02/18 at 16:46:37 No plans announced. Those are larger transformers (necessary for the jump in power) and so far Steve has not mentioned a plan to engineer those as UFO transformers. Perhaps he'll step in and let us know one way or another.  . .

Title: Re: New Memeber... needing advice Post by metropolis7 on 04/02/18 at 17:35:51 Can you elaborate a bit about this SE84 "charm"? Really want to know what distinguishes a UFO'ed Zen from, say, a Taboo 2. I am using some crossover-less 96dB speakers. The line on the Taboo was that that it shared a similar character of the Zen, maybe minus some of the Zen's imaging.

Title: Re: New Memeber... needing advice Post by Lon on 04/02/18 at 18:05:20 Hopefully someone will chime in. I only have UFO transformers on a Taboo Mk IV, the most recent Zen SET amp I've heard was my old Zen Select, and I have an even older modded C amp and neither of those have UFO transformers. In my opinion the "charm" of the amps that use the tubes that the SE84s and Taboos use is their speed and transparency. EL34, 6V6, KT66 etc. used in the other amps add some definite heft and body to the sound but the characteristics of the sound aided by speed and transparency are a tiny bit diminished. The different topologies of the amps and rolling tube complements and adjusting preamps can all narrow that gap to near-imperceptibility though. And pumping some serious gain into the Zen amps can add body and heft. All these amps share a family "nature" that really means the most important aspect is fitting the right amp to the right speakers in my opinion.

Title: Re: New Memeber... needing advice Post by Palomino on 04/02/18 at 19:12:51 I think Lon's description of the SE84 amps vs the others is spot on.   I would add that a Zbit in conjunction with a variable XLR output DAC adds enough gain for the Zen Amps.  I have this combo running into my Rachael and ~94db speakers and it is louder than I need (12.5 X 16.5 room).

Title: Re: New Memeber... needing advice Post by MMac on 04/08/18 at 01:52:10 As I lean towards the torii mk 4, and plan my savings, I figured I would ask if Decware ever has seasonal sales like “Black Friday”, etc... I know they did a while back, but wasn’t sure if they still do.

Title: Re: New Memeber... needing advice Post by Lon on 04/08/18 at 02:40:37 Xmas time was the last "sale" I think and that and Decfest time are the traditional discount times. Wouldn't hurt to call and ask. . . why not? You never know. It's not worth waiting that long if not. . . you want to get on the build list!

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