Forums https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl AUDIO FORUMS >> Reviews >> Decware's little Giant Killer https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1476817077 Message started by Stephanie on 10/18/16 at 19:57:57

Title: Decware's little Giant Killer Post by Stephanie on 10/18/16 at 19:57:57 Hi All, i am a big fan of Roger Sanders and for quite sometime I have been longing to purchase one of his Magtech amplifiers. First to power my Acoustats model twos and secondly to power my Proacs Response Threes. Each time I attempt to go ahead with the purchase a piece of Decware amplification ends up changing my mind. The first time was a pair of SV83 driving my Acoustats. Not very much volume but the richness of tone and the organic bass and the realism of sound coupled with a review I had read where a decware user said he had sold his Magtech because of the quality of sound from his little decware amp simply caused me to put a plug in that purchase. The second time was when I heard the se84 playing my Proacs. Again two watts and the realism of the female voice the tone and control of the bass, the refinement in the top, what else could i do but put a plug in that purchase. I am now thinking of purchasing another se84 but, not to mono block but to use one for the bass and one for the mid and top. Any thoughts on that would be greatly appreciated. Regards Stephanie

Title: Re: Decware's little Giant Killer Post by Steve Deckert on 10/19/16 at 03:14:22 Bi-amping such a speaker where you have one amp driving the bass and another doing the mids and highs has the distinct advantage of adjustable frequency response. This is almost a must for classic rock lover's since you can "fix" lack of bass issues on the fly as they happen and can therefor listen to Rock at lower volumes.  It would also have the more subtle advantage of being able to voice one amp for bass performance and one amp for midrange and treble via a little tube rolling. Disadvantages are only monetary.  You need an additional pair of speaker wires, and probably a good preamp to drive both amplifiers at the same time.  You would use the volume(gain) controls on each amplifier to adjust the frequency balance to your liking. -Steve  :)

Title: Re: Decware's little Giant Killer Post by stone_of_tone on 10/19/16 at 15:19:47 Nice to read Stephanie. I had a SE84CS for 14 years and was always worth keeping the SPL's slightly down to enjoy what you clearly stated ("richness of tone and the organic bass and the realism of sound") out of my CS. I think you should go for it and get the SE84 for bass lower and the other kept for mid on top. The man himself suggested. For me though? I had to create two separate System's. Plus, increasing the power with a ZMA in my separate Listening Room. My ZMA is my CS with power. Plus, with tube rolling (Cabling too)....I've really hit the jackpot on truly pulling the most out of the Zen Mystery Amp....that I had with my CS....but with the SPL's I crave, when I want it. My second Rig is solid state HT and two channel with Polk SRS SDA 1.2's. As fun, dynamic, and huge scale as this System is......it can't match my Listening Room DECWARE System....as you know from your experience too. My point is: the upper and lower Amping might be just the ticket for you ~or~ "you can't have everything in one System wisdom"....and build two that satisfy.  Enjoy. Listening Room: Room Treatments from Michael Green & Home Brew Sony as Transport (DVP-NS57P) Illuminati D-60 Digital Coax IC Shunyata Research Ztron Alpha Digital Power Cord to ZDSD {Extremely Significant} Decware ZDSD DAC / Recorder ++ *************************************************************** W/Steve's Output Transformer's/kicking to the curb quite a few superb DAC'S! *************************************************************** (@ -20 Ref Level, 0.0 Input volume and @ 16/192) WBT-0102Ag RCA Kimber Select KS1030 Decware Zen Mystery Amplifier ~BIASED at *60* mA~ (NOS/Platinum/Mullard E188CC/7308's in my A12 an B12 Input positions Cryogenic~NOS/Platinum/Telefunken E88CC for Inverter Tubes~NOS RCA 0A3's & New Quad of Tube Depot Stealth/Tung-Sol KT66's) ZMA adjusted at 20% to 30-40% max ~ from 0 Gain *************************************************** Kimber Select KS6063 Speaker Cable 8ft WBT-0681-Ag Spades *************************************************** Acoustic Zen Adagio - Black Pearl (Modified) .....from 8ohm Taps. Acoustic Zen Adagio's x-over's Modified/Full Range with Mundorf MCap Supremes-single Cap to each Tweeter/4.5k cross (Gutted: 3kHz/18dB/Octave, Linkwitz/Riley Crossovers....with all crappy parts = gone) XLO Pro Power Cord to ZMA PS Audio P3 Power Plant / Pangea AC-9SE from wall to P3 (Transport and ZDSD, Regenerated/*120*~ Multiwave off...ZMA on High Current Output) ++ ZDSD DAC, kicked to the Curb: Auralic Vega, PS Audio PWT & PWD, PS Audio Direct Stream DAC, Chord Qute, NAD M51 (twice) & Schiit Yggdrasil. ~NOS Platinum Tubes from Upscale Audio/Kevin: (Great Britain) Mullard 7308/E188CC ~  2 pair (both pair Cryogenic) (Germany) Telefunken E88CC ~ 1 pair (US/Great Britain) Ediswan CV2492/6922 ~ 2 pair (one pair Cryogenic) (Hungary) Tungsram 6922/E88CC ~ 1 pair (Hungary) Tungsram PCC88/7DJ8 ~ 1 pair. From Cryoset: (Russia) 6N23N/P-EB ~ 2 pair (2 pair from Steve ~ stock).

Title: Re: Decware's little Giant Killer Post by Matchstikman on 10/19/16 at 15:33:42 I'm curious.  How exactly with a bi-amp system with two SE84UFOs get setup?  First, I think you would need a loudspeaker equipped to handle a bi-amp setup, right?  Somehow you'd need a source that would allow separate signals.  Is this correct?  Or a preamp what could do that?   How? I just ordered an SE84UFO.  I've always wanted one.

Title: Re: Decware's little Giant Killer Post by stone_of_tone on 10/19/16 at 15:54:18 PS ~ Stephanie, you might want to consider single capping your Proac's. I did for my Adagio's.....and the results are stellar. I have the original x-over's extracted from my Adagio's on the shelf next to me. I like to glance at them and laugh............ . Sweet Match! You be UFO'in! Plenty of info out there for your question. A flow chart or two also. Steve might chime in on it too.

Title: Re: Decware's little Giant Killer Post by deucekazoo on 10/19/16 at 16:24:30 No you don't need a separate source to bi-amp. I do this right now but just a little different than most speakers. Most speakers are ready to bi-amp by having two sets of post on the back. You will notice they are usually tied together with a bus bar. If you take that bar off you can run an amp to the top posts for the tweeter and another amp to the bottom posts for you mids. The X-over inside will take over and route the correct frequency to the correct driver. So you will be running full signal to both amps. Both amps are then controlled by a pre-amp for the volume control. My set up is different in that I have a full range Fostex back loaded horn speaker. I have no X-overs but the full range driver starts to fall off in frequency at 16k. I have a pair of tweeters with a cap that plays them from 15k and up. So I have one CS amp for the full range driver and I have the other CS amp hooked up to the tweeters to blend them in between 15k-16k. This gives the speakers a little sparkle at the top. The tweeters are a little less efficient than the Fostex driver so I used the volume control on each amp to match the tweeter with the mid driver. This makes the system very flexible.

Title: Re: Decware's little Giant Killer Post by Matchstikman on 10/19/16 at 16:41:39 deuce, what kind of preamp do you have? I've never checked. does the CSP3 have dual outputs and if they do, do they operate at the same time or one at a time?

Title: Re: Decware's little Giant Killer Post by Lon on 10/19/16 at 16:44:42 I have a CSP2+ with dual outputs, operating simultaneously, they could be ordered that way. Otherwise there is a stereo output and a mono subwoofer output. And I just checked, this is an option when ordering the CSP3. Just check out the CSP3 page.

Title: Re: Decware's little Giant Killer Post by Matchstikman on 10/19/16 at 17:20:54 A whole preamp sounds like overkill.  Possibly just a signal splitter is needed but won't that degrade the signal?

Title: Re: Decware's little Giant Killer Post by Matchstikman on 10/19/16 at 18:09:00 If I do this I think I will just use a splitter.  I will adjust the volume on each SE84UFO.  I think this will work.

Title: Re: Decware's little Giant Killer Post by deucekazoo on 10/19/16 at 18:34:16 I have CSP2 with dual outputs. I had Steve add the second output for me and they are both on at the same time. The downside to just splitting the signal is if you want to turn up the sound you have to do it to both amps and then make sure its the same level to each other as before. With the pre-amp you have just one volume knob to turn and it goes up the same level for both amps. But for testing purposes just to see if it would work for you, you can do what you mentioned. Then if you like it save up for a pre-amp. The pre-amp will make your life easier.

Title: Re: Decware's little Giant Killer Post by Matchstikman on 10/19/16 at 20:03:21 deuce, does your setup provide more slam?  I imagine it does. I guess the next step above bi-amp is to bi-amp with monoblocks.  Can you imagine that?  Man, that would be crazy.

Title: Re: Decware's little Giant Killer Post by Matchstikman on 10/19/16 at 20:36:06 deuce, have your tried using an active crossover?

Title: Re: Decware's little Giant Killer Post by deucekazoo on 10/19/16 at 20:59:10 Not more slam, more sparkle. Like I said my system is a little different. No I have not tried using an active x-over. For my setup its not needed. The Fostex driver is full range so there is no x-over. I run full range signal into it and it plays 60hz - 16k and then drops off. No x-over parts to get in the way. Now on the tweeter I run a single cap that blocks the low signals so from the cap value I picked I have it blocking everything form 15k and down. So it plays 15k - to what ever its rated at. I think is 24k and then drops off. I think an active x-over would be fun to play with if you had a standard speaker and wanted to tweak your x-over points to your liking.

Title: Re: Decware's little Giant Killer Post by Lin on 10/19/16 at 23:27:53 Adding a second identical amp for passive biamping does not increase power.

Title: Re: Decware's little Giant Killer Post by Matchstikman on 10/19/16 at 23:41:48 It may not increase power but logically it should increase breathing room.  I mean, when before one amp handled all the frequencies and now the work has been divided into segments.  Its got to have an effect on handling difficult music.  No?

Title: Re: Decware's little Giant Killer Post by Lin on 10/20/16 at 00:13:44 "Its got to have an effect on handling difficult music.  No?" Maybe through placebo. You are far better off buying an amp with enough power to handle said difficult music with the current speakers or buying more appropriate speakers for current power.

Title: Re: Decware's little Giant Killer Post by Stephanie on 10/20/16 at 00:24:27 All, Thank you very much for making this post so interesting. I just need to make a few points clear. My room size is 9ft wide 11ft long 7.5ft high. I sit on the long wall and my speakers are 6ft away from me. I never thought two watts would give me the sound,the realism, the purity of tone and extension at the extremes but, it has. My wanting to try another similar amp is not for increased volume as I am not a loud listener and that would only serve to overwhelm my little room. Please note I am extremely happy with the sound I have. Another amp you say... let's look at the cost performance factor and tell me with what would I replace the Zen with!! I was using a pair of DIY Gain Clones rated at 40 watts and the Zen just blew them away in every area of the spectrum. If you were to experience the bass I am experiencing from my Muse model18 subwoofer since the addition of the Zen wow. What else can I say?

Title: Re: Decware's little Giant Killer Post by Lin on 10/20/16 at 00:42:21 One thing to note about audio forum threads; not all comments are directed to the original post, some address questions or thoughts brought up by other members. Steve's and deucekazoo's posts cover the only benefit that I'm aware of. My suggestion for a more powerful amp applies to amps cut from the same cloth, not completely different amps. What are you hoping to achieve by doubling the amp cost?

Title: Re: Decware's little Giant Killer Post by Matchstikman on 10/20/16 at 00:46:02 Lin, I appreciate the education.  Thanks.

Title: Re: Decware's little Giant Killer Post by Stephanie on 10/20/16 at 00:55:28 Hi Lin, Your comments are Noted and appreciated. My response wasn't one of defense or attack. I was simply sharing the joys of what I am hearing. One reason for the addition of another amp is to hopefully give my system some more headroom. Regards

Title: Re: Decware's little Giant Killer Post by Lin on 10/20/16 at 00:59:50 Match, think of having a car with a 200 hp engine and awd, you could add another 200 hp engine so each axle has its own engine or replace the single engine with another that has 400 hp.

Title: Re: Decware's little Giant Killer Post by Lin on 10/20/16 at 01:05:30 "My response wasn't one of defense or attack." I didn't take it that way. :) "One reason for the addition of another amp is to hopefully give my system some more headroom." I don't believe you will achieve that using them as stereo amps because your speakers will still be getting only 2 watts. Now if you use 2 amps as paralleled mono amps (=more watts), that is a different story.

Title: Re: Decware's little Giant Killer Post by stone_of_tone on 10/20/16 at 01:56:36 Steph, so right! My SE84CS would still be providing me bliss under my original signature below. But, my Medtronic stock ship came in and the ZMA kicks the piss out of all else now. Stone is tone and out of the Building. 👍 But, as green as you are. Modifying your Proacs would be a good ear opener for you ..you .. Can always retro them back to original. I would have, if it did not work out for my Adagio's. Knowing you're running Proacs and liking it with Decware Zen.... .... You get it with premium Speakers + your Acoustat knowing. I would gladly text you the schematic pic and quality of internal wiring and silver solder that needs to be done.....for single cap.... Of course your Proacs need to be swept for the best x-over point from tweeters to woofer drivers premium spot..... .

Title: Re: Decware's little Giant Killer Post by Stephanie on 10/20/16 at 02:20:58 Another reason for me wanting/needing to go with another Zen is affordability. I can't afford  anything more expensive than a used Zen at this time so, i'm trying to make the most out f what I can afford.

Title: Re: Decware's little Giant Killer Post by stone_of_tone on 10/20/16 at 02:31:16 Understandable Stephanie. You know the Decware realism now. Persue it. Digest all opinions here and feel welcome here as well. PM any time too.

Title: Re: Decware's little Giant Killer Post by Stephanie on 10/20/16 at 04:00:36 Thanks Stone_of_Tone Cheers All

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