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AUDIO FORUMS >> General Discussion and Support >> Why no Integrated Amplifiers?
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Message started by Brian on 06/07/16 at 01:52:57

Title: Why no Integrated Amplifiers?
Post by Brian on 06/07/16 at 01:52:57

I don't mean Decware particularly, but the world generally.

When I look at the price of interconnect cables, can somebody tell me why the integrated amp has gone the way of the Dodo?

With the preamp on the same chassis as the main amp, all that would be needed is a short piece of wire soldered from the output of the preamp to the input of the power amp. How is this not better than separates?

Brian

Title: Re: Why no Integrated Amplifiers?
Post by jsm71 on 06/07/16 at 13:26:26

Brian, I'll take a stab at this. First of all in the solid state world there are a lot of integrated amps, many of which are quite good. The simplicity of a single unit and the lack of additional interconnects are indeed a benefit.

There is however a lot going on inside of one of these, crammed with a lot of circuit boards, wires, and connectors. What often suffers and is compromised is the power supplies, just not enough room sometimes. Class D has improved the packaging issues a lot and heat is way less of an issue, but class D is still not the audiophile choice for many and you are posting on a tube oriented site.

With tube gear it is a different story. In my case I have a separate tube preamp (Cary) and power amp (Decware ZMA). The tubes alone would pose a huge issue. I have a phono front end on my preamp and that account for 4 additional tubes. Between the two pieces of gear that is 18 tubes. Where would you put them? How big would the chassis have to be?

The power supply approach is also very different between my two pieces. In tube gear, to generate power for the amp and gain for the preamp section the design is really kind of at odds. Steve's "integrated" amps allow for input selection but he is not generating separate front end gain. He has excellent separate choices for preamps. For the record I'm in complete approval of his design approaches. Tube gear really needs to be separates.

Scott

Title: Re: Why no Integrated Amplifiers?
Post by Lon on 06/07/16 at 15:44:07

I think unless your source needs the additional volts, or your amplifier needs an amped up source as the ZMA seems to, and you only have one or two sources, the two input adjustable amps from Decware really do well without a preamp, and so are budget friendly bang for buck audio wonders.

I agree that with tubed systems that an integrated can be problematic. Solid state perhaps less so, but we're here because we love tubes! :)

Title: Re: Why no Integrated Amplifiers?
Post by Brian on 06/08/16 at 00:02:28

To clarify, tube amps are all I was asking about; being not interested in SS.

Perhaps all of the integrated amps of the past were SS. I had not thought of that.

Scott seems to have solved the riddle with saying preamps and power amps need different power supplies. Thank you, Scott.

Brian

Title: Re: Why no Integrated Amplifiers?
Post by DB2 on 06/08/16 at 00:03:08

"I don't mean Decware particularly, but the world generally."

In the last few years there has been a resurgence in integrated amps for the high end. In addition to good products from, say, Yamaha (see the 6moons review of the Yamaha AS-801) there are both tube and solid state offerings that are both reasonably priced and into the stratosphere. The Diablo 300 from Denmark sells for some $15,000. You can build your own from Vinnie Rossi's LIO. On the tube side there are good products from Ayon, Allnic, Acoustic Research, Rogue Audio and PrimaLuna, to name just a few.

Title: Re: Why no Integrated Amplifiers?
Post by jsm71 on 06/08/16 at 14:52:41

There are plenty of examples of integrated amps using tubes. These range from hybrid designs where 1 or 2 input tubes feed a SS amp up to all tube designs. I didn't say it couldn't be done, but often design compromises come into play.

The Rogue Magnum II for example uses 9 tubes in a single chassis and boasts a MM phono stage. I've heard it and IMO it simply doesn't match up to Decware gear. Convenient, yes. Primaluna, same deal. I only pick on these because they play in similar Decware pricing markets. Once you cross 5 figure pricing I assume quality better be there.

I stand by my opinion that separates are better sounding when tube designs are desired. I also had separate SS gear in the past and I believe the quality difference is less noticeable. There is always a market for convenience so that is why integrates exist. In the larger consumer markets separates are in the minority.

Title: Re: Why no Integrated Amplifiers?
Post by Brian on 06/09/16 at 01:26:54

Wow! Thank you, DB2 and jsm71.
I am more out of touch with modern developments than I realized.

I assume the failing of Rogue and Primaluna is not because it is all on one chassis. At least I don't see why it would be. More like what Scott said in his first post: compromised parts to reduce size or cost.
If a Taboo or Select were placed on the SE34I chassis together with a CSP3, I can't see it sounding worse than those components mounted separately.

Brian

Title: Re: Why no Integrated Amplifiers?
Post by ZYGI on 06/09/16 at 16:53:08

http://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/the-other-side-of-the-coin-2/

Brian, this is a link a series Paul McGowen of PS Audio wrote on integrated amps.

Have a look!
Zygi

Title: Re: Why no Integrated Amplifiers?
Post by Brian on 06/10/16 at 03:35:26

Thank you, Zygi.
It sounds like the trouble is those shared power supplies.

Brian