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AUDIO FORUMS >> General Discussion and Support >> best bang for the buck speaker wires
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Message started by darrwood on 12/05/15 at 22:42:59

Title: best bang for the buck speaker wires
Post by darrwood on 12/05/15 at 22:42:59

So I've been wondering, while your saving up for Steve's wires, what non exotic, "will not break the bank" speaker wires really work. I don't need fancy ends or anything and I don't think you could call it even DIY! What do you guys use? Thanks, Darrell

Title: Re: best bang for the buck speaker wires
Post by Archie on 12/05/15 at 23:41:38

I use the Decware interconnects but I made my own speaker cables using 14ga dead soft solid silver wire and oversized Teflon sleeves. I followed the sight link below. I didn't add any connectors. I'm happy with them. I think my cost for the pair of 11 foot cables ended up at about $200. You buy the silver by the ounce!

http://www.tempoelectric.com/cables.htm#speaker

Title: Re: best bang for the buck speaker wires
Post by alper_yilmaz on 12/06/15 at 00:51:31

When I first started using Decware gear back in 2003 (or 2004), Steve had told me that a naked Romex cable is difficult to beat! As Romex stuff could not be found in NYC at the time (due to some construction regulation, maybe), I remember driving to New Jersey and buying some. Later on, I bought some 8-awg naked copper wires from Home Depot for cheap, and they worked great for many years. As the SE84C+ speaker outputs could be shorted, there was not risk of frying the unit, and over time, the copper wire started sounding better.

So, to cut the long story short, I used them for years and was very happy with them! Just give it a shot, as it is dirt cheap!

Best,

Alper

Title: Re: best bang for the buck speaker wires
Post by Lon on 12/06/15 at 13:47:55

If you can find a used set of TARA Labs "Time and Space" cables they'll do well while waiting for the Styx; I used these for some time and really enjoyed them with the Decware amps I then had.

Ultimately I wasn't completely happy with the Styx speaker cables and found that I like the Mapleshade Double Helix Plus better. These have stopped my speaker cable search for the last two years. . . just don't feel the need to try others.

Title: Re: best bang for the buck speaker wires
Post by maddog07 on 12/07/15 at 23:44:39

Cat-5 cable is hard to beat for the $$. Buy the plenum rated version, which gets you teflon(PTFE) insulation. You can play around with the braiding of the wires to get different results.

I have been a fan of Goertz/Alpha Core copper(and silver) foil speaker wires and interconnects for years - they are a reference for me. I judge everything else DIY and otherwise against how it differs from the Goertz. The copper versions can usually be had on the cheap from audiogon. I have a set of silver Goertz speaker cables too, but to be honest, there is only a slight noticeable difference sonically - but a huge difference in price. Many folks would probably actually prefer the copper long term. I use the copper Goertz speaker wire pretty much all the time. Due to silver prices, Goertz stopped offering silver speaker cables a couple years ago, but they still offer silver IC's. If you want to try them, go cheap first, and go the copper route. It's at least 90% of the silver's SQ at a fraction of the price.

If you want to DIY, you can really do a Goertz-type speaker cable cheap. Buy a 12 gauge copper foil inductor, like a 1.0uh value, and unroll it - you'll have plenty. Then get some cloth gaffers tape and use it for insulation. You can mess around with running the two pieces of foil(one piece of foil for + and one piece for -) in parallel sandwiched together or run them separately - this affects the inductance dramatically. Pick which sounds best to your ears in your system. I could tell you my opinion of how they sound compared to Zen Styx, which I have, but it would just be my opinion.. in my room, with my equipment. Your mileage WILL vary.

Title: Re: best bang for the buck speaker wires
Post by darrwood on 12/08/15 at 03:24:30

sounds interesting maddog where do you get the supplies, electrical supply? Great ideas looking forward other ideas......Darrell

Title: Re: best bang for the buck speaker wires
Post by maddog07 on 12/08/15 at 23:16:37

materials are common as dirt. you can get cat-5 plenum rated at any electrical supply house... or Amazon.
copper foil inductors from Jantzen, Erse, Goertz... check parts-express.com, partsconnexion.com, soniccraft.com... all over the place.
parts-express, Amazon for gaffers tape.... or many other places - GTS(Google that $hit) to find more options ..!!! ;D

Title: Re: best bang for the buck speaker wires
Post by Tripwr1964 on 12/10/15 at 02:58:55

haven't tried any of steve's wire, but like my blue jeans belden wire much.

also have be wanting to find some old western electric cloth wire and try it too.

i have 12x2 romex running my outdoor speakers and don't sound too bad.

Title: Re: best bang for the buck speaker wires
Post by Palomino on 12/10/15 at 17:22:59

I went from lamp cord to Belden to 8 awg silver plated copper (like Steve's) to the Western Electric. The WE16g is my favorite cheap cord so far. Hard to find these days. The guy in Kansas that had it on ebay is pretty much out.

If I was you, I'd be tempted to try the cat 5. I have heard good things about it as well, but never tried it.

Title: Re: best bang for the buck speaker wires
Post by Lonely Raven on 12/10/15 at 21:16:01

CAT5 tends to be pretty high capacitance, which rolls off high frequency.

Title: Re: best bang for the buck speaker wires
Post by darrwood on 12/11/15 at 03:52:06

I'm using lamp wire right now because I needed a longer set of cables and wasn't sure what else to do in the short term, I appreciate all these possibilities and your experience. on a related note my amp has to be off center so one speaker is farther away from the amp by twice the distance. you do need to have equal lengths, right?

Title: Re: best bang for the buck speaker wires
Post by Lonely Raven on 12/15/15 at 04:13:52

There are those that say "electricity moves at just under the speed of light, a distance of a few feet isn't going to make a difference"

My experience keeps telling me that "everything makes a difference"

So while I can't say YES, it's absolutely necessary...and being completely honest - I've never heard a difference myself. But I still do all my cables equal length, within mm if I can.

Title: Re: best bang for the buck speaker wires
Post by kana813 on 12/15/15 at 07:03:56

1. http://audience-av.com/cables/ohno.html

2. Western Electric WE16GA, if you can find them.

Title: Re: best bang for the buck speaker wires
Post by Core32 on 12/15/15 at 12:30:01

Quote:

2. Western Electric WE16GA, if you can find them.

I have no doubt if you take the words "best bang for the buck" literally, these would have very few rivals.

I think I paid in the neighborhood of $50 to bi-wire my speakers, 8 feet.
Most everyone who has listened to these have nothing but good things to say.

Title: Re: best bang for the buck speaker wires
Post by maddog07 on 12/15/15 at 23:43:36

cat-5 is not high-capacitance if you take the individual pairs out of the outer jacket and make your own braids to whatever objective you’re trying to attain. Every cable’s electrical characteristics are derived by its resistance, inductance and capacitance, of which these three parameters define its impedance. They are intimately correlated, and if one is high, another has to be low.

And… I’m not being argumentative here at all, really - Please explain – I’m seeking knowledge/clarification. But if capacitance “rolls off” highs.. then why are “capacitors” used as “high pass” filters in every passive crossover on the planet to let highs “pass” thru to the tweeter and to attenuate lows from reaching a tweeter? The capacitance is blocking/attenuating low frequencies from passing thru the capacitor - right?

Also… I have used Goertz foil conductor cables for years, if you have never heard any, you should give them a listen. And… they are admittedly, by their manufacturer (Alpha Core) high capacitance, but very, very low in inductance, and low resistance with about a 6-ohm impedance. Per well established properties of electrical frequencies transmitted over wire, as stated above… in order for the Goertz to have such low inductance and relatively low resistance, they must be high in capacitance – and Goertz states that they are.
I assure you, no I guarantee you, that these cables do not roll off highs and anybody can verify this with their own ears within seconds of listening to a pair. At least they do not roll of highs in the human hearing range. In the megahertz range – maybe – I don’t know – and I also don’t care.
I have 3 different sets of Goertz speaker cables, 1 set of copper, 1 set of solid silver and one of their Python series in copper. I also have a pair of Zen Styx, Nordost Red Dawn(rev. 1), Kimber 8TC, some DIY cat-6 cmp(Teflon insulated), some old Audioquest (can’t remember the name), Zu Mission(looks like lots of runs of individual CAT-5 wire) and some solid copper/Teflon insulated DIY’s using wire that Dzurko/Audio Concepts used to sell that their speakers were wired with internally, plus a few I've forgotten about at the moment. Each of these speaker cables has an identifiable and distinct sonic signature. The Goertz high-capacitance cables do not give up anything in high frequency resolution compared to any of these cables on the numerous amp/speaker combinations I have owned or tried them on in the last 10-15 years, which is how long I’ve had some of the Goertz cables. In fact, within the last week, I have A/B'd the Zen Styx and the Goertz copper foils on my current DIY OB speaker project, which uses a single, full-range, high-efficiency driver with no crossover of any kind. There is no more revealing speaker, not even my Martin Logan electrostats. I think you would be surprised at how similar the Styx and the Goertz cables sound. It takes a few swaps back and forth to distinguish the differences, which are very slight.

Title: Re: best bang for the buck speaker wires
Post by Tripwr1964 on 12/19/15 at 18:32:19

try the western electric 10ga (available on ebay, grey cloth). just put a pair in my setup couple days ago, sounds real nice.

Title: Re: best bang for the buck speaker wires
Post by kana813 on 12/21/15 at 02:52:31

http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=8762

Title: Re: best bang for the buck speaker wires
Post by Raduschka on 04/20/16 at 03:28:02

Hello,

I came upon this discussion while trying to find out whether my freshly purchased Goertz mi2 cables will need a zobel network on my mini torii (paired with full range 10 inch audio nirvanas). I have just written to Steve.... Can anyone help please? Thank you

Title: Re: best bang for the buck speaker wires
Post by Raduschka on 04/21/16 at 01:51:40

...and the answer came today: not necessary! :-)

Title: Re: best bang for the buck speaker wires
Post by maddog07 on 04/21/16 at 16:54:06

There is no reason to use the Zobel’s with an amp that uses output transformers, like most tube amps, and McIntosh solid-state amps.
The Zobel creates a high impedance at ultrasonic frequencies so as not to upset the feedback loop of "some" solid state amps not properly designed. <- Goertz’s explanation.

I have used various sets of Goertz low inductance/high capacitance speaker cables with dozens of tube amps and even more solid state amps, including some inexpensive little “chip amps”. I have never had any of them start oscillating, go into protect mode, shut down, blow their fuses, start smoking or burst into flames.
I also have tried to “listen” for a sonic effect with them in use .vs. not in use – I have been unable to detect any sonic difference.

The one and only thing I ever consistently noticed when using Goertz speaker cables with one particular solid-state amp, that happened to have “LED power meters”, that per the manufacturers tech support said registered “output current”, was that for a given volume level on my preamp, playing the same music, the peak hold function of the power meters would register slightly lower average power with the Zobel’s in place as opposed to when the Zobel’s were not in place. I can only speculate on what this may or may not have meant, or what was going on electrically in the amp, as I am not an electrical engineer or power amp designer. I could hypothesize that without the Zobel’s, the amp was working harder dealing with the capacitance of the Goertz cables in the ultrasonic frequency range – but that is a SWAG on my part at best. Try though I did, I could not “hear” a difference, but the power meters did consistently register a bit lower with the Zobel’s in place for any given volume level with this particular amp.

Also Goertz/Alpha-Core has, at times, provided the Zobel's free of charge. There is not much to them - a very small cap/resistor in series contained in heat shrink. They are very small, and the output leads are small gauge wire and will break easily - especially if you are in the habit of installing and uninstalling frequently (ask me how I know) :). It's a good idea to install some kind of "connector" on them and reinforce/support the connection.
A couple of years ago, I ordered two pair from Goertz - one pair to use and a backup pair. I then bought small black ABS plastic "project boxes" from PartsExpress and some inexpensive binding posts. I attached the binding posts to the plastic boxes, and soldered the Zobel's to the binding posts on the inside of the box. I then made some short wire jumpers from CAT-5 with banana's on one end and spades on the other to use to attach the Zobel boxes to binding posts of an amp. The Zobels are attached in parallel across the binding posts of an amp, so my little box is not interfering or in the way of cables going to my speakers. Keep the jumpers short and all the connections tight/solid as any series resistance would effect the value of the Goertz Zobel circuits. * Also, ironically or not, I have not used these since I made them, as I've been all "tubular" for the last several years now.....