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AUDIO FORUMS >> General Discussion and Support >> July CDaPs Meeting
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Message started by Palomino on 07/20/15 at 12:08:44

Title: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by Palomino on 07/20/15 at 12:08:44

We had a short and sweet CDaPs meeting yesterday at President Raven's multi-media Lair. Rob, Jay and I seated in the listening area with Raven off to the side like the wizard of Oz pulling levers behind the curtain.

We listened to Raven's ZMA/DS combo the entire time, but swapped in speakers and IC's.

We started out with some Elvis which was pretty amazing given its recording date. We also heard some Beach Boys Pet Sounds which was also amazing given the 60's vintage. Lots of other music heard, but those two stand out. Oh, and what became a test track for the day - Summertime with Louis Armstrong/Ella Fitzgerald.

Speakers compared were the 944s, El Caminos and the Blue Zu. I knew what to expect from the 944s and El Caminos, but was pleasantly surprised by the Blue Zu's. They had more of the open sound I look for and imaged really well in Raven's difficult room. I would still plunk down my money on the 944s if I had to pick a pair for all round listening, but the Blue Zu had me wondering.

On the IC front, we heard Raven's Morrow's, Rob's Coincident (sp?) which are both balanced and my $50 DIY Belden 8402s with Switchcraft RCAs. Rob's ICs easily won in my mind, followed by the Morrow's. The Belden were harder to compare because of playback level differences, but held their own with the more expensive cables. Closer to the Morrow's than the Coincident.

We toured Raven's future "intimate" listening room, a spare bedroom that is being emptied for a higher calling.

Oh, and I almost forgot. I did sense a difference in the DS firmware. For me, it seemed smoother and more detailed than times past, but it had been a while. Certainly better than we heard in my room last time around (may have been a technical issue then).

That's about it. Other members may chime it with impressions.

Title: Re: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by Lonely Raven on 07/20/15 at 17:32:01

Minor correction and some added details -

The Beach Boys album was actually The SMiLE Sessions which was released 44 years too late. I wanted to delve more into that, but didn't want to bore you guys.

The Morrow XLR I use is a $300 1.5m MA3, and ProggRobs cable I believe he said was a $500 cable...and since you guys were so impressed with the improvement, it looks like I may need to try out some higher end XLR and see if I can push the detail envelope without giving up that smoothness.

The Elvis in question was the Elvis Stereo '57 on DSD64. Great sounding and worth the money, even though I'm not a big fan of Elvis, this is just downright good music .

http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/94709/Elvis_Presley-Stereo_57_Essential_Elvis_Volume_2-DSD

We probably should have demo'd the Pikes Peak OS vs the new (beta) Yale OS on the PS Audio DirectStream so you guys could more clearly here the difference. It's quite profound - but I think we all felt the new musicality of the Yale OS. I look forward to seeing what that wizard Ted Smith does next, as I think he said he could lower the noise floor even more!

I didn't get any photos of the tiny spare bedroom, but I'll take care of that as I decide to move forward with the dedicated room experiment. I know power is going to be an issue, but even more so - it's only a 10 X 12 room....maybe even a little less. It will be a fun experiment to see what I can do with it and a truck-load of DIY room treatments.

Also, after you guys left, I started working on the Eico amp - assuming there aren't any hidden issues, I hope to have this up and running in a week, maybe two if I need to order more parts.

Title: Re: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by Lonely Raven on 07/20/15 at 17:33:37

Sorry for the crummy photos, but it's really dark in my media room. And honestly, I took them all near the end in about 30 seconds. :)

Title: Re: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by ProggRob on 07/21/15 at 20:13:02

Sorry guys for the late response. I've been thinking a lot about what I heard on Sunday but never thought to visit the forum!

I'd never been to Raven's house before, which is funny to me because I've seen him 3 times at my house and twice at Palomino's. We were long overdue for a visit to our President's abode.

General impressions: I spent the first hour of our meet without any internal dialogue; no opinion, no analysis, no reactions, just listening. It was easy to recognize that his sound is quite different than what I hear at home, so I had to get my bearings. It wasn't until the end of the session when I began to appreciate what I was hearing, and it was hammered home when I turned on my stereo that night: presence.

I still haven't gotten Louis Armstrong's trumpet out of my head.

When I played the Summertime track at home that night, my system just got hammered by Raven's. The trumpet wasn't in the same league. Was it the DAC? The ribbon tweeters? Who cares, it was awesome.

Whereas my OBs are much more laid back, more stage dancer, the sound at Raven's is very forward. Lap dancers. If I could pick one attribute to take home with me, I'd have that.

Kudos to Raven. Fantastic sound, and still lots of room to improve with a new set of interconnects! I won't pretend I was imagining anything; his sound was a lot better with the Coincident interconnects. The PS Audio DSD and the ZMA are worthy of any cabling. Spend away Raven!

Title: Re: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by Lonely Raven on 07/22/15 at 17:39:06

Quote:

Whereas my OBs are much more laid back, more stage dancer, the sound at Raven's is very forward. Lap dancers. If I could pick one attribute to take home with me, I'd have that.

That's a quote for the ages right there! I love it!

Don't forget about the Blue Zu! I knew right away that was a sound more closer to your system. They are good, but not *my* sound. And I think you nailed the description of my sound right there with the quote above. Thanks for the good laugh, and I really enjoyed having you guys over.

I don't expect Jester/Jason to post here. He's too busy and we're a boring crowd to the non-hardcore Decare/Audiophile fiends. I did however plant the seed of him getting that Decware ZCD, or maybe the stock version of it since he doesn't spend like we do on audio. :)

Oh yeah, I'm still considering a DAC for my computer - the buzzing off the speakers is driving me nuts, which sucks because the Zen amp on my PC, even with cheap ass PC speakers sounds amazing. The sound card just has too much noise, so i need to bypass it. Can I borrow a budget DAC from someone to see if that works?

I'm still considering buying some decent speakers for the computer to mate up to my Zen amp - I'm hoping something really inexpensive but decent sounding pops up in the Classifieds soon. :)

~Eric~

Title: Re: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by Palomino on 07/22/15 at 19:00:28

All I have to do is find the power supply for my DAC and you can give it a whirl. I think I know where it is.

I am now not going to Michigan this weekend so maybe we can rendezvous.

Title: Re: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by ProggRob on 07/22/15 at 19:05:48

Hahaha, glad you liked it! Who wouldn't want to take home a lap dancer?

The Blue Zu Omen were (are) more to my taste than the 944. I know it wasn't a surprise to anyone, except maybe Jason, that I preferred them in our A/B. It was funny, because Jason said he felt pretty much the opposite of how I felt. I like the open, airy soundstage with a strong yet still secondary love for detail and focus. I think you and Palo are more in his camp, too, though Palo has been using the word "musical" a lot lately so maybe him and I are closer than I think ;-)

This was a case in point why there is probably no such thing as "The Absolute Sound". Everyone has a different preference.

Title: Re: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by Palomino on 07/22/15 at 19:25:02

+1 on the lap dance analogy. Not that I would know exactly what all that entails :)

Title: Re: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by Dave1210 on 07/24/15 at 02:17:42

There are a bunch of uncontrolled variables in what I am about to say, but since they echo what you guys observed in a more controlled experiment I will mention them anyway.

My buddy owns Zu speakers and I too find them more laid back vs. the 944's. Sounds like you are observing the same. I find that the soundstage starts further behind the speakers than the 944's. Therefore, depth of the stage appears to be greater.

That said, without the detail I get in my system I find it more difficult to hear into the music. This is where I would apply the caveat above, because I haven't heard the Zu's in my system (with my DAC, room treatments, etc). I have only heard them at my buddies place.

Also, one thing I noticed immediately with the Zu's vs. the 944's is how the tweeters on the Zu's separate tape hiss from the rest of the recording. Tape hiss is rendered in front of the speakers while the music starts behind the plane of the speakers. I don't get this 'effect' on my speakers. That said, I have experienced this on Magnepan speakers in the past.

So...I was hoping you guys would comment further on your observations.

Title: Re: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by ProggRob on 07/24/15 at 03:25:00

Hi Dave,

I didn't notice the tape hiss phenomenon, we only did one track per pair of speakers, but I do have a theory. I presume that hiss is pretty far up the frequency spectrum, and since the Zus cross over to the tweeter really high (like 12khz), it's possible that the hiss may be a large portion of the sound coming out the tweeter and therefore seeming "separated". This is just a wild guess but seems to correlate to Zus design ethos around stitching their wide banders and tweeters together.

Rob

Title: Re: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by Dave1210 on 07/24/15 at 17:42:51

Hi Rob. Did you by any chance demo the Triode Wire Labs interconnect when you were on your search for an XLR cable? Curious because your power and speaker cables are TWL...

Title: Re: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by ProggRob on 07/27/15 at 04:38:40

Hi Dave, I haven't heard TWL's interconnects. I'm willing to swap my Coincident and move to a complete TWL loom but it would probably be a lateral move, overall. I love the signature of Pete's cables though I'm very attracted to the idea even without audition.

Title: Re: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by stone_of_tone on 07/29/15 at 16:17:37

Have you guys done any Cap rolling in these Speaker's (pictured: 944, Zu & Zggy modified El Camino)?

Curious what Caps are in each?

I'm considering having Mundorf M-CAP® Supreme Silver & Oil put in. Currently, I have Mcap Supremes in my Acoustic Zen Adagio's/4.5kHz cross.

Stone dont' do ~ and don't like Zus design ethos around stitching their wide banders and tweeters together. My Adagio's are very nice, but intrigued about squeezing even more Juice from Silver Oils ~an even fuller and smoother tonal richness and diversity.
Burn in sucks....but I might have to go for it!

Title: Re: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by Palomino on 07/29/15 at 16:41:49

We stuck to the recipe in the El Caminos. Raven's 944s don't allow access, so no go. I believe the Zu is stock as well.

I have gone to Mundorf ZN in my DIY monoliths with good success.

I converted my DNA's to a Zygi-fied DNA with a tweeter. That required a cap on the tweet and a coil on the woofer. Don't recall what I used. I do like this setup better than the single Tang Band driver on the DNA, but have yet to hear the MarkAudio Driver.

P.S. The El Camino uses nothing exotic but it does use the Mundorf ZN on the tweeter. Bob turned me on to these as a decent, but reasonable cost cap.

Title: Re: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by Lonely Raven on 07/29/15 at 20:15:27

What Palomino said.

My 944 have crossovers, whereas the previous ones didn't - and it's installed in such a way that I can't access the crossover.

The Zu I've not touched except to put hours on them. They sound decent, just not quite my sound. I do love the *blue* though.

Title: Re: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by Lonely Raven on 07/30/15 at 12:50:46

I finally got a quick photo of my future test listening room. It's a really small like 12 X 10 or there abouts...smaller honestly since there a closet, and the door frame juts into the room by about a foot. Right now it's just box storage while I finish up some painting and other house projects.

I'm going to paint it, leave the crappy 30 year old carpeting since I can't afford new right now, build an amp rack, build a fleet of absorbers, and move all my gear and current diffusers in here and see if I can turn on the magic in such a small room.

The size of the room is really what's killing me. Sure I'll get good sound because I have good gear, but I want friggen holographic imaging that you can touch...and I think this room is just too small for that. But, I won't know for sure till I try.

Title: Re: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by Fireblade on 07/30/15 at 16:50:52

My current experience in a similarly sized listening room indicates it is enough to make one listener happy at the sweet spot, nothing else. It does not help to disseminate the good sound to other people or its surroundings, nor it excels in bass management unless you go with plenty of bass traps around.

Absorption panels help but kill the liveliness of the sound so Diffusors are a must: I would say, 50% each of this two types spread around are ideal. I'm working towards that goal and feel I'm on the right track. The bottom line is, sometimes you feel you are imprisoned inside that 'cell', but the sound variables can more easily be controlled and low power amps with high sensitive speakers in this environment rule.

There's a difference between near-field listening and a larger acoustic environment, each with its own tradeoffs.

Title: Re: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by Lonely Raven on 07/30/15 at 18:32:43

Yeah, I've already got the room treatment mapped out in my head.

I still have my old Decware CWALS bass traps, but I'm sure they could use some tweaking to work better. I had crappy tools when I made them some...15 years ago.

I have all four corners available for bass traps, so I could in theory do super-chunks all around. And since it's a dedicated room, I have no problems doing ceiling corners and floor corners.

I've got one 4' X 4' two inch thick panel built, and I plan on building at least two more so I can cover the first reflection points and ceiling. Then, once the room is good and dead, I'll start bringing in my fleet of diffusers, and since the room is so small, I could easily cobble together some Decware style diffusers for upper-mid to high frequency diffusion.

The Room treatment part is easy, it's the room itself that's just too small.

Title: Re: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by Palomino on 07/30/15 at 18:37:03

We could also bring in Palomino's rolling QRD diffuser lab to test.

Title: Re: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by Lonely Raven on 07/30/15 at 18:43:16

We might run out of room for diffusers at this rate! :)

Title: Re: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by Palomino on 07/30/15 at 18:44:23

I won't be happy till your room looks like that production studio with floor to ceiling (and ceiling) skylines.

Title: Re: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by Acetone on 07/30/15 at 19:09:08

If anyone can make that room sing it's you LR. My room is 11' x 16' I've added sound treatments little by little over the last Year +. 6 ea 2' x 4' absorbers, 2ea 4' tall corner bass traps, 6 ea 2' x 4' diffusors, 4 ceiling corner 1' triangular bass traps. Will be adding a 46" sq absorber to fill a window behind & between my speakers.

Title: Re: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by Lonely Raven on 07/30/15 at 21:46:00

Oh yeah, the two windows will be filled by the hard pink foam insulation sheets. I'm basically going to cut out plugs and make them flush with the wall...which will kind of suck because this is the nicest room in the house for ambient light...but it will drop the noise floor quite a bit.

Title: Re: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by seikosha on 07/30/15 at 21:59:45

LR,

There is hope for you. My room is barely larger than yours, yet through a lot of work, I've found what works well in that space. The good news is that you can actually get away with using something like a Zen if you choose to do so. You'll be listening near field, but you'll realize that there's a tremendous amount of detail and imaging in it. However, just as was mentioned, it'll be limited to one seat.

You may or may not end up trading out some of your equipment, there is just no way to tell right now. I'm looking forward to your journey though. Keep us posted.

Title: Re: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by Lonely Raven on 07/31/15 at 15:22:28

Thanks for the positive reinforcement!

I'll at least have this as an experiment. Running clean power to this room will be a bear, and I need to remove the ceiling fan and add at least 4 (LED) recessed lights. Plug the Windows. Paint. Build the Stereo Rack. Then start moving gear in and testing empty, absorbed, then absorbers+diffusers.

Somewhere in the listening Stage, I'll have CDApS over for some listening sessions and to help me decide what diffuser layout sounds the best.

I'll take photos and post the journey here in the forums of course. Ultimately, if I can't get a listening room at least up to the level that Palomino has built up...then I'll scrap this room and probably turn it into a workout room or something.

Title: Re: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by jpv on 07/31/15 at 17:51:37

LR,
Time to break out the microphone and do some REW to go along with photo's. That would be a great learning experience for the group.
JPV

Title: Re: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by ProggRob on 07/31/15 at 19:49:35

LR, you should definitely start a thread on your 2nd listening space. Of course I am happy to come over and evaluate as it progresses!

I ended up selling my Coincident IC's and bought some Triode Wire Labs "Spirit" ICs to complete my TWL loom. On a whim, I also bought the "Digital American" power cord to replace my 10+ power cord on the DAC. If that wasn't good enough, ZenWave Audio (f/k/a Dave's Cables) is sending me some interconnects for demo early next week: a pair of XLR D2 Ultras and some D4. The D2 are newly revamped and I don't believe that he's posted them on his website yet. You can find details on AudioCircle, though.

Ain't life grand?

Rob

PS - I've been playing around with Furutech GTX-D outlets and have much to say about them. I'll be posting a new thread about those when I get the energy.

Title: Re: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by Lonely Raven on 07/31/15 at 21:26:22

Yeah, I completely need to relearn REW. But that's a good idea. I've been doing so much by ear the past year and a half. time to start measuring.

Title: Re: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by Dave1210 on 08/01/15 at 02:25:07

Rob...I have had my eye on both of those cables from TWL, so I am curious what your thoughts are. My primary need at the moment is for a good XLR cable to run from the DS DAC to the ZMA.

I am currently using Anti-Cable reference RCA interconnects, but I am in need of some extra weight and dynamics (that I am hoping the XLR will provide via a bit more voltage). I have had the Anti-Cable reference XLR in for demo in the past but ultimately sent it back. That said, it could have been my previous DAC vs. the cable, so maybe I should give it another chance.

I just got started listening to the official release of Yale on my DS. Melody Gardot appears to be singing in my room as I write this. That's fine by me.

Cheers and happy listening!
Dave

Title: Re: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by beowulf on 08/01/15 at 02:56:21

Might want to consider single driver speakers for that size room at almost nearfield. Hemp AlNiCos ... just saying ... :D

Title: Re: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by Lonely Raven on 08/03/15 at 00:17:14

The rest of CDApS is missing out - I have Jester here and we're trying out the Decware CD player via the stock XLR outs, and it simply sounds outstanding!

Title: Re: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/03/15 at 03:34:03

I assume you realize that listening to the XLR outputs is nearly listening to a stock unit. The only thing that's different is a couple tweaks to the power supply that include installing a shielded power cord with an earth ground.

The reason it sounds better than one might expect is the synergy between it and the transformer used in the ZMA.
That transformer is the same unit we use in the CD player to create the single ended outputs. That locks the synergy and makes it possible to have this magic with any Decware amplifier.

I recommend you keep it another week if that will make it possible for the whole group to hear it or if you just want to spend more time with it. It would be nice to start a thread for it with your findings.

I discovered more 320 bps streams that sound good and think we should publish favorite stations.

I use mine to stream music about 70% of the time, 25% of the time to play music on my computers, and 5% of the time playing CD's, which always surprise me on this player.

Steve

Title: Re: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by Lonely Raven on 08/03/15 at 16:45:59

If you're sure you don't need it for another week, Steve, I wouldn't mind playing with it more. I did lots of radio listening (this is really good for that!) and we tested some CDs last night, plus played files off USB Flash Drive.

We had some trouble with getting the device to see my NAS, and it was getting late so I pulled the plug on that. I'd really like to spend more time on the devices network features and flesh it out some.

For the money, this is a really great unit!

Title: Re: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by Palomino on 08/03/15 at 17:13:59

I'd like to hear it. Sorry, just out of town over the weekend.

Title: Re: July CDaPs Meeting
Post by Lonely Raven on 08/03/15 at 17:50:32

Putting your family over CDApS! Pishaw!