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https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl AUDIO FORUMS >> General Discussion and Support >> Finding the weakest link https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1429706107 Message started by Fireblade on 04/22/15 at 13:35:07 |
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Title: Finding the weakest link Post by Fireblade on 04/22/15 at 13:35:07 If we can ID which is the weakest link in our path, upgrading decisions are a lot easier, since tackling that link will lift the entire system to its next bottleneck. Also, the next hurddle may be so marginal that the change would probably be significant and permanent bringing the system to a plateau that may be long lasting. At least this is my hope, and thus, I'm working on finding out what is currently limiting the sound in my system. This is evidently a relative proposition, so no need to go for the finest equipment out there (as it would be wasted by other bottlenecks), but to incrementally (but significantly) improve your my current sound presentation. I used to have a bottleneck on the DAC, then on my speakers. Both have been resolved to great success. Next I tackled the room with DIY absorpion panels on wooden stands, which brought the system up a notch again. I'm ready for the difussor era, and I even have the right initial spots to place them, I'm just evaluating the most convenient approach to implement this. I'm currently also trying to decide what my bottleneck is (there's always a weakest link in the chain, ad infinitum), so if the fix is relatively affordable I can set my goal and work for it. In the meantime (for those g¿here that hate thinking and analysing things) I'm enjoying the system as it is as it sounds the best ever. But, having the Audiophile bug, I'm always on the look for the next incremental step. The whole journey is part of the fun in this hobby, at least for me. You can check my signature listing and see what I have, so any sensible suggestions (although a difficult proposition without listening sessions) are welcome. I'm sure some of you are in the same situation, which may help us all to induce a more efficient approach in indulging our crazy interests at humanly affordable costs. Thanks! |
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Title: Re: Finding the weakest link Post by Lonely Raven on 04/22/15 at 13:50:41 Well, you know my answer - I'd say get those diffusers in, work on getting the room better...then your other system issues (and changes) will be way more apparent. The room wrecks our sound far more than we realize. It also helps to have audiophile friends that can listen in and evaluate your system - maybe even flat out swap gear with you for experimentation. To me, those two things will make the biggest impact and help you out of ruts. The learning experience alone has made me more confident in my decisions on gear. I find I no longer waffle or regret purchases. And that is a pretty big improvement on my listening - LOL. |
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Title: Re: Finding the weakest link Post by Palomino on 04/22/15 at 14:10:27 + on the diffusers. It's hard to diagnose a system without hearing what it is truly capable of. Beyond that, are you happy with the USB implementation on the DAC? That was a bottleneck for me. Digital coax was another. And given your power issues, any progress on regen/conditioning? |
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Title: Re: Finding the weakest link Post by ProggRob on 04/22/15 at 14:53:34 Fireblade, When I review your equipment list nothing jumps out at me being "out of line" with the other components. They are all logical choices with high price-to-performance ratios. I would pursue the room diffusion, but I would also pursue optimization of your playback software, audition interconnects/speaker cables through the Cable Company, and perhaps do some tube rolling. Lastly, if you don't have any aftermarket power cords you are selling your system short. All these things are cheaper than replacing whole components. My two cents, Rob |
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Title: Re: Finding the weakest link Post by Lonely Raven on 04/22/15 at 15:23:41 High-Five to the CDApS team! ;D |
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Title: Re: Finding the weakest link Post by Fireblade on 04/22/15 at 17:15:03 Ha Ha! I may become the Correspondent/Representative of the CDApS 'Foreign Chapter' ... :D Seriously now, I agree with everything mentioned here. I already did some tube rolling and that department is pretty stable now. I achieved a nice balanced setup I'm happy with. The Difussors are a go, I just need some logistics barriers out of my way. I agree these will put my system in real potential perspective, but I want to go the next step, beyond that. No critical listeners in my area, never mind audiophiles .. Don't know anyone as of yet. My few friends are not into this sort of hobby. Actually, I'm kind of the weird hobby guy, as most people go for the BOOM! - BOOM! in audio >:( I can't imagine even selling or buying these kinds of equipment down here (no second market, that is why I cannot make acquisition mistakes), although there used to be a McIntosh Rep for a while ... Haven't heard of them for some time now. The guy used to complain about people here not the least interested in this audiophile thing ... and when I told him I preferred small flea amps, that Rep never replied back! ;) Anyway, the USB implementation in my current DAC is significantly better of what I had before, so, I'm happy with it. I think USB is the way to go for its practicity and it has been developed so much, it's going to continue getting better on each new device out in the market. The barrier is the Mini Torii not accepting balanced, in which case I could go for the Audio Gd NFB 7 Balanced option down the road, my current DAC's major sibling, Audio Gd's Sabre chip flagship (I like Sabre, but have not heard the alternative chip from UK). Power cords ... well, Jellyfish is great, and I have a new Connektion cord for my DAC. Neither expensive, but with high reputations in the real world (not in the audiophile one!). My Isolation Transformer is behaving great. The power company may have finally settled down and adjusted to the higher demand and may stay again stable for a while. That rules the PS Audio P3 out, as I think I can get more from that investment than following that road. I also don't appreciate DAC or Power cord or Interconnect suggestions, I'm done with them until the last, ultimate polishing revision, which would probably happen after I'm dead ... ha ha! I think there are more substantial improvements in other areas (caps/resistors tweaking for speakers, bees wax caps for amps, more absolute power, maybe, or an absolute SET sound? I DUNNO, that is why I ask around. Please keep those suggestions coming, Thanks! |
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Title: Re: Finding the weakest link Post by Fireblade on 04/22/15 at 21:17:13 I'm sorry! What I meant was, I have very dependable, well made-for-the-purpose cabling in my system. Even if the sound may be tangibly improved with alternate audiophile grade cables and power cords, the investment balance between cables and components would be really off (i.e., a USD 450.00 power cable to feed a USD 500.00 DAC, or something like that). With a dependable, brand name, well made cable, I prefer to invest the saved money in circuit design, if you catch my drift. So, please don't feel I'm against the audiophile boutique stuff, or I don't believe in its potential, but first one has to have a very transparent system to detect those improvements, and I'm working right now in that direction. its just not in my radar right now. To get to that stage, I need to know where to invest limited resources, whether a used Torii MK III or upgrading the Mini Torii, or upgrading to a balanced DAC with the Z-Bit to allow the amp to accept balanced, etc. This, of course, after having set the Difussors in my room, which is a given. Thanks again for your kind and well intended support. Signed: Foreign Chapter, CDApS 8-) (... just kidding about CDApS, sorry I couldn't help it) |
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Title: Re: Finding the weakest link Post by Palomino on 04/22/15 at 23:01:22 We welcome all. We even allow members from Wisconsin. |
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Title: Re: Finding the weakest link Post by Fireblade on 04/23/15 at 00:38:13 Ha!! I can understand that: https://www.illinoispolicy.org/illinoisans-flee-the-state-for-neighboring-indiana-missouri-and-wisconsin/ |
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Title: Re: Finding the weakest link Post by ProggRob on 04/23/15 at 03:36:12 Ahhh... Illinois. A sad state of affairs. |
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Title: Re: Finding the weakest link Post by Fireblade on 04/23/15 at 15:34:40 I would love to visit Peoria, though ... On Decware Oktoberfest, just before the freezing times ... |
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Title: Re: Finding the weakest link Post by Lonely Raven on 04/23/15 at 19:23:27 Quote:
That is assuming they bring down some New Glarus. :) |
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Title: Re: Finding the weakest link Post by ProggRob on 04/24/15 at 16:38:47 Quote:
I understand where you are coming from. It's hard to argue with that! I rattled off a bunch of areas you could focus in but it's clearly not reasonable to attack them simultaneously. Treating the room and upgrading your core components is a logical place to start. I have found though that the better my active components become, the more I can hear and appreciate differences in cables. It took me a long time to develop an ear for it. |
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Title: Re: Finding the weakest link Post by Fireblade on 04/24/15 at 17:28:43 I have found though that the better my active components become, the more I can hear and appreciate differences in cables. Correct and agreed. I'm currently evaluating my upgrading path, no easy task, mind you, as there are even philosophical conceptions involved, like more SET-like sound or more tube power? Better DAC for 2.8 times what I paid for the fine-sounding DAC I have? Worth it given my gear? Room conditioning is a must to evaluate cables as well as components. Only problem is, I essentially cannot try and return, so any component upgrade choice has to be guided by a kind Master like Steve, with whom I'm assessing my situation for his final advise on an upgrade path. |
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Title: Re: Finding the weakest link Post by beowulf on 04/25/15 at 03:25:56 Fireblade wrote on 04/24/15 at 17:28:43:
Get the Yggy! ;) |
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Title: Re: Finding the weakest link Post by Fireblade on 04/25/15 at 16:31:15 Yeah, the Yggdrasil is tempting, but way too expensive for such a fast evolving segment. I would rather invest the price difference in better amplification. For a ballpark USD 1,000.00 less, I prefer this: http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/NFB732/NFB7.32EN.htm Now, if I had a ZMA and HR-1 speakers, the Schiit Yggdrasil would be ideal, worth that much money difference, I'm sure. I'm happy with my current smaller sibling Audio Gd NFB 3 (2014), and the NFB 7 tromps it even with RCA outputs, as referred to by several users' testimonials which upgraded from a NFB 28 or NFB 3 like mine, or other similar level Audio Gd alternatives. The NFB 7 is Audio Gd's Sabre chip flagship, which according to designer Kingwa cannot be improved any further by him, regardless of cost, as his design applied all the chip's capabilities to their limit. Of course, the other nice sounding Audio Gd flagship is based on the UK PCM1704UK chip, which is more analog (real)-sounding but less resolving and it's even more expensive due to the UK's chip not being produced anymore. One would need to have had the experience with Audio Gd units to really appreciate their value, which does not correlate with current market prices. Just my view. |
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Title: Re: Finding the weakest link Post by Acetone on 05/08/15 at 00:11:07 I considered WEAKEST Link for me was speaker cables. After much research and input from these forums I make purchase today of: Mapleshade "double helix plus" cables. Will have them in a week. 30 day return policy is a nice cushion. Still plan to add ceiling corner bass traps soon and tweak diffusor location. Unfortunately I do not have a group to share live listening sessions with and compare notes but, I am very happy with my current set up and improvements in sonics with each upgrade to my system. Thinking bout going to the T.H.E. audio show in Irvine at the end of May just to hear a few systems/rooms for a reference. |
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Title: Re: Finding the weakest link Post by ProggRob on 05/08/15 at 00:15:20 Good call Acetone. We swapped some Triode Wire Labs in for some Blue Jeans in a buddy's system and it was embarrassing for Blue Jeans. Same thing happened when swapping Grover interconnects for Blue Jeans. |
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Title: Re: Finding the weakest link Post by Fireblade on 05/08/15 at 00:26:02 Ok, the speaker cables ... The ones I've got are copper and heavy gauge (equivalent to 11 AWG) as these are two sets of 4PR put together, or the equivalent of an 8PR (confirmed by the people at Kimber Kable). I used to bi-wire my previous speakers (pre-Decware era), so I had those two sets of cables and decided to combine them to increase the total equivalent diameter in a classical mono-wiring configuration. Frankly, I see it as Lon suggested: Fine tune with cables and anti-vibration, power cords, etc. once you have made the big upgrade moves, or something like that. In order for these elements to be tangibly noticed is through improved transparency and this is exactly what I'm trying to improve first, so I agree, but in due time. Thanks for your suggestion, Acetone. |
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Title: Re: Finding the weakest link Post by Acetone on 05/08/15 at 00:46:10 Fireblade, The cable comparison/evaluation Triodes vs blue jean is good to know. Thank you for that input. Everytime I upgrade I have a voice in my head saying "I don't know if it can sound better than it does now" but, after the upgrade it does..noticeably (most notably with ZP3 upgrade - ortofon 2m black upgrade, and acoustic treatments). So far so good with my tweaking. |
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Title: Re: Finding the weakest link Post by Fireblade on 05/08/15 at 00:53:48 That comparison heads up was from fellow ProggRob, not from me, but I also appreciate the anecdote, as it makes the cable issue quite evident, especially in a high resolving system. |
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Title: Re: Finding the weakest link Post by Acetone on 05/08/15 at 00:54:44 Oops excuse me ...Thanks much to Progg. I need to slow down a bit. |
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Title: Re: Finding the weakest link Post by ProggRob on 05/08/15 at 01:00:07 That's really great you're making a move there. How do you like your Ortofon Black? My friend (same one as above) has a Scout Jr with 2M Red and a Graham Slee Phono feeding a Rachael with Tekton M-Lores. Every time I see your sig I think of him. I forget which model phono he has but it was around $350, and has been debating between a phono stage and cartridge upgrade. What would you choose? |
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Title: Re: Finding the weakest link Post by Acetone on 05/08/15 at 16:10:53 hey Progg, absolutely love the 2m black. I spoke to Steve D before buying the ZP3 and of the carts I was looking at he recommended the black. very detailed and revealing, and less sibilence than my other choices. Example: listening to Traffic "low spark" the other night I could hear a vocal that was out of sorts during the first few verses and chorus of the song...it finally dawned on me that the track was recorded on tape that had not been properly erased so there was a vocal bleed that became part of the new recording...Now that's too much detail, but pretty cool. |
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Title: Re: Finding the weakest link Post by 4krow on 05/10/15 at 18:24:25 Truth be told, I am finding myself to be the weak link at times. Hearing what I used to isn't happening anymore, and so, I am going the way of components that I would have considered a little bright only a few years ago. That is a slippery slope, since if a component is doing one thing over the top, it is likely not great at other parameters as well. |
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Title: Re: Finding the weakest link Post by Acetone on 05/14/15 at 18:26:47 I hear you Krow...some days are better than others when listening. I think a lot has to do with our state of mind. I find best sessions are when I am able to sit, relax and the music clears my mind of the daily clutter. UPDATE: the new mapleshade 'double helix plus' cables have 15 hrs burn in on them and they are undoubtedly keepers. First 3-4 hours were a bit thin and harsh...but they are getting sweeter and sweeter. Soundstage width, depth and details are all easily detected improvements. :) nice! |
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Title: Re: Finding the weakest link Post by Lon on 05/14/15 at 18:44:20 Glad you are digging them Acetone. My experience was similar, took a few days. . . they keep getting better and better. . .and then they sort of disappear. ;) |
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Title: Re: Finding the weakest link Post by Acetone on 05/14/15 at 19:43:36 Thanks Lon, your past posts got me started on checking out the mapleshades. These forums really, really do help in steering me in good ways! |
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Title: Re: Finding the weakest link Post by Lon on 05/14/15 at 22:37:08 They freak me out, they are such thin insignificant wires and yet sound so big and full. I used single strand cryo'd CAT-6 wire before and knew that size "doesn't matter" but these are so much better than that CAT-6 wire is. I even prefer the Mapleshade to the Zen Styx which were my previous reference. Glad you gave them a go. Hope they keep surprising you (they should). |
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