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https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl AUDIO FORUMS >> General Discussion and Support >> Newbie Chiming In https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1425043425 Message started by Scrapper Dan on 02/27/15 at 13:23:44 |
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Title: Newbie Chiming In Post by Scrapper Dan on 02/27/15 at 13:23:44 Hello everyone, my name is Dan and I am looking to get into the world of high end audio. I found these forums a while back and have been lurking and finally decided to join. So, bare with me while I learn. -Scrapper Dan |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by hdrider on 02/27/15 at 16:29:12 Scrapper - Welcome aboard! Great forum here, tons of advice, knowledge, experience (painful and otherwise) and fun. I lurked, bought a Zen SE84CS kit way back in the day, and then lusted for a Rachael and ZP3 which now reside in my rack. LOVE THEM!! Even my wife comments how much better things sound now and is excited about some new speakers (Omega 7 & sub) which I will order within the next week after finish samples arrive. Dive in, keep us posted!! Happy listening, Chris, |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by Acetone on 02/27/15 at 17:58:33 hey Dan...yes welcome. I started a year ago with a superzen se84ckc. then a ZP3 a few months ago. A lot of good info here if you dig around. Info & help available on these forums and on this site in general made my journey a lot easier. Loving the sound I am getting and it's improving as equip seasons. |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by Scrapper Dan on 02/27/15 at 18:34:37 Thanks for the Replies! What is everones opinion on Bose? I think I can pick up a set of their speakers from the local resell shop fairly cheap ($350/each), I think they are 501 Series V? Thoughts? I'm not sure what I will drive (I think thats the right word) them with yet. |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by Acetone on 02/27/15 at 21:01:01 If your going to go the way of low wattage output tube amps you'll need to make sure the speakers are efficient enough to mate with amp choice. There is a chart in amps section that will give you something to consider |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by beowulf on 02/27/15 at 21:16:24 Welcome Scrapper! +1 to what Acetone said. Efficienct and easy to drive speakers are very important when it comes to low wattage tube amps. I'm not sure what the specs are for the Bose, but I would look into speakers that start around 94dB sensitivity and higher. A few brands to look into are: Zu Audio, Tekton, Omega, Decware's own line of speakers, Blumenstein Audio and Klipsch. Consider used speakers if you are on a budget check out the Classifieds here on the Decware forums and Audiogon. |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by Palomino on 02/27/15 at 22:14:11 Couldn't find an efficiency rating on the 501's but the specs say 15-20 watts minimum depending on the version. |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by Lon on 02/27/15 at 22:19:52 They should work. I used my Zen Rev. A amp and my Select with 4.1 and 10.2s in a small listening room and they were quite loud enough for all but heavy metal and orchestral climaxes, and had an interesting sound. |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by DBC on 02/27/15 at 22:48:48 Bose, that brings back memories. In the late 70's I had a pair of 901's. At that time Bose listed the Maximum Recommended Power for the 901 as Unlimited. At that point in my life that was all I needed to know. If you wanted Shear Volume these were the speakers. Friends were always amazed that at volume there was enough air coming out the rear ports to blow out any Bic lighter. I eventually gave these to my brother. The early 901's had paper cones that were notorious for breaking down over time. My brother took the 20+ year old pair in to have repairs. Bose (the factory) took the old speakers in trade and sold him a brand new pair (2006 version) for about 25% of retail. |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by Donnie on 02/27/15 at 22:55:43 Scrapper, It all boils down to how you want to approach this hobby. Some like to pile drive their music and some like the finess of music reproduced with style. I have been known to rattle the windows but have came to appreciate the finer aspects of music. Make sure that you pay attention to the details like cables, interconnects , and vibration control. They will all pay off in the long run. |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by Lon on 02/27/15 at 23:09:31 In other words, back off NOW, while you still have money in your account and time on your hands. :D |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by SteveC on 02/27/15 at 23:59:52 Dan, when I started on my hifi tubefi decwarefi journey several years ago, I didn't know what was good. what was real. what mattered. what differences could be heard. Today, I own, a se84, torii3, and ZMA, and some decware seakers. I haven't heard a better stereo system out there, and frankly have stopped looking. in this thread, people are leading you toward high efficiency, and you might not know why, but Steve Deckert has written a bunch of really useful articles about this stuff. (over time, as I bought equipment, and started learning and hearing the differences, I learned that "Oh, this is what Steve meant in article X when he describes this phenomena". I recommend reading some (all) of this stuff. articles: https://www.decware.com/newsite/articles.html And the one to start with: https://www.decware.com/paper43.htm high efficiency speakers: https://www.decware.com/paper49.htm once you know some of this stuff, you'll answer your own question about name brand less efficient speakers. |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by Scrapper Dan on 02/28/15 at 00:31:00 I'm looking to spend around 20-25k on this system, which is about a weekends worth of production, as soon as I get a spot I'll have some cash for this project. So far, looks like you guys are saying bois is a joke. I like the Torrie, does it come in other colors other than black? |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by Scrapper Dan on 02/28/15 at 00:32:54 What about macintosh? |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by Lon on 02/28/15 at 00:41:45 Yes, if you look on the Torii page it shows a walnut base as well as saying this: You can select from the Black Figured Base (shown at the top of this web page) OR the Contemporary Style Walnut Base (shown above). Different woods can be selected from within the shopping cart. The Black Figured base is only available in Black. |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by Donnie on 02/28/15 at 00:44:46 Scrapper, My Torii is red but I did it myself. Spray paint is cheap. You can get custom wood bases made in about any kind of wood that you could imagine. And I have to ask, Product??? That sounds nefarious, lol! |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by Archie on 02/28/15 at 00:46:27 Quote:
As Henry Ford said about his Model T, "You can have any color so long as it's black." |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by SteveC on 02/28/15 at 02:00:21 Seriously, if you're going to spend that kind of money, take a trip to Illinois and audition everything with Steve, after you have auditioned everything you think sounds good... bose, McIntosh, etc. that air fare will more than pay for itself in "not changing your mind" in the future, aka, getting off the audio equipment merri-go round. hearing is believing. you won't af first believe what you hear. |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by hdrider on 02/28/15 at 03:19:02 Scrapper- take your time, ask questions as you are doing and read Steve's papers (SET's and effecient speaker works might be the first) and anything else. Do not be in a hurry. If you are close to Steve & Decware by all means head there (call first) and spend some time. They are a trek from the Santa Cruz mnts or I would have stopped by. Listen and learn. The Decware/Zen approach goes against the tide of what you will read in the mags…don't matter. It is a much better path and sounds Way Flipp'en better. Speakers are subjective, lot's of great ones and lot's of not so… happy learning and happy listening, Chris. |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by SteveC on 02/28/15 at 04:30:25 "Take your time" advice is very good and appropriate. I jumped straight to the end: "Just go to Illinois and hear for yourself" because of my story with Decware. As I said, I didn't know anything: Sony, Pioneer, Onkyo, receivers were my hi-fi world. I bought speakers if they were heavy and had big magnets (embarrassingly). I had just started dabbling with used SS and tube amps from Jolida and Myriad, and realized you can hear the difference over a consumer receiver. I read about SET and started small with a SE84C. not too much money. But definitely heard a difference. It blew my used "hifi" stuff away. The clarity and more so the speed of the small SE84 is unmatched. You can't understand it until you hear it, on efficient speakers. That's key, you (we all) have to learn what "speed" means, or really sounds like. And once you know, then you can't live without it. I gained some trust in Decware, and wanted more power, so I bought into the bigger Torii3. it trades some speed for lots more power, but still beats the pants off the other stuff I heard. Trust grew. And then the ZMA... and that's, well, just awesome in a whole different way. (tight and big low end, to say the least). Anyway, as my knowledge (including going to 2 Decfests in Illinois and hearing all their gear) and trust grew, I spent more $$$ and have zero buyers remorse. I put in the time and money to gain the knowledge and trust with these products over time. I love my3 amps. They are different, and all fantastic. think Swedish super model triplets. each amazing, but slightly different. And compared to "lesser" (other) gear, there's no comparison. Now, speakers. yes, this is very subjective, but a general rule is more efficiency is better (as the articles explain... you don't want to waste audio information (music clarity) generating heat in a speaker or crossover. ) Also, there are synergies between different amps and different speakers (due to damping and impedance curve differences). read the decfest threads and you'll see preferences about which speakers sound best with which amps. you can spend a lot of time trying different combinations (of any brand speaker). So again, I say, go to the source. Steve D has his opinions of which speakers best match amps and the reasons why. People here do too. He knows what will likely sound good in your room when you describe what you're trying to do. If the cost of the trip is a small enough fraction of the money you want to spend, and you want to get to the end result sooner than later, go to the source is still my advice. What you gain from that trip is the knowledge you need to feel you're making sound choices. free advice is worth what you pay for it. :) |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by Luis on 02/28/15 at 06:35:20 Hi! Talking about speakers I would always think about the ERRs, no matter what they are just GREAT (and with them you get free extra room treatment) Luis |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by beowulf on 02/28/15 at 08:46:40 I don't think anybody said Bose is a joke ... it has it's virtues, but you have $20-25K to spend and you're looking at used speakers that cost $325? That doesn't make sense for a balanced system. You can build an awesome Decware system for a few grand and spend much more if you want to.
What type of McIntosh gear were you thinking of? Obviously this is a Decware forum so it will be Decware biased as far as amplification, but a lot of people pair Decware amps with other preamps as they may need additional functions that Decware Preamps don't have such as remotes, more inputs, built in phono stages, etc. I have a McIntosh C220 Preamp, it's an entry level piece, but I love the functionality of it and it's a decent piece of hi-fi gear and built like a tank (like Decware is as well). But Mac preamps are not as puristic of an approach as something like a Decware CSP3 Preamp, so there are some tradeoffs, but it suits my needs as I need a remote due to the chronic lower back pain. You should think about what you want to accomplish with the system you will be building. Are you going for a Vinyl playback system, CD or SACD playback, Computer playback or a combo of all three? Will it serve double duty with both music and home theater or strictly a 2 channel stereo setup? With that in mind you should think about your room, how big it is and what type of sound you want from the system. Do you want lots of volume or do you like low level listening, will you be listening close (nearfield) up or will you have some distance between you and your speakers?. With those thoughts in mind you can concentrate on speakers, amplification and sources to accomplish your goals. |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by Donnie on 02/28/15 at 13:08:38 With $20K from selling "product" I would go bat shit crazy! A pair of Mono's, a pair of HR-1's, a new 'puter and DAC. There would be cash left over for good wires and stuff like that. It would be good times around here. |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by marky on 02/28/15 at 14:35:32 Oh my, $20k ! I missed that post, there`s been a lot of helpful recomendations. Scrapper, you could enter the Decware house sound and have problems deciding, mainly which amp to buy, CSP3 as well. Speakers, I`d love to hear a pair myself. Excelent DSR i/c`s. Bose speakers, I`ve read some really crap stuff about them, I mean really crap. I suppose they had a decent model somewhere. I bought into the dream and thats where I am when I listen. It just took the ZP3 to open my eyes as to what was on offer. I reckon Steve could give you some good advice as to the power range best suited. |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by Lon on 02/28/15 at 14:42:08 Really, if you do have 20 to 25 grand to spend. . . spend a little on a trip to Decware and meet with Steve or cohorts and listen to what you can. That will really help you decide and you'll probably end up placing an order at the end of the visit. . . . If you're serious and not pulling our leg about this budget that makes sense to do, honest. You may prefer the Zen monos, or the Torii Mk IV to the ZMA or the big Monos, who knows? And you can audition amps and speakers together, the biggest synergy needed right there. |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by Lonely Raven on 02/28/15 at 15:04:27 Road Trip! |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by Palomino on 03/02/15 at 14:28:06 +1 to what everyone has said. I dinked around for a couple of years and then stumbled upon the Decware site, attended Decfest in Oct of 2012 and the rest is history. Here is why it is more efficient to shop Decware by making a visit: Steve has a range of amp/speaker combos that you can explore, at different price points - all in one sitting. Plus, his listening room is better than about 90% of those you'll find a dealer. He will also spend time with you to help you figure out what is right for your room at home and the kind of music you listen to. So you will hear multiple combinations at multiple price points and you will actually be able to "hear" the amp/speaker combinations. You'll also get some good down to earth advice in terms of what will work for you. Why buy a speaker/amp combo from Decware - in a word, "synergy." You are pretty much guaranteed synergy. I bet a number of us can tell stories about having paid a good amount to have speakers and/or other gear shipped to our house only to find it didn't work with our existing gear. As you can see, I am pretty biased, but I hate inefficiency and I hate the audio merry-go-round. Plus I hate overpriced stuff. |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by jsm71 on 03/06/15 at 21:27:27 Dan, you asked about Bose and McIntosh, two opposite ends of consumer price and recognition from the average person's perspective. You ask a person on the street about Bose and they have heard the name, and probably think it is for people wanting the best. Ask about McIntosh and they think you are asking about a PC. Truth: Bose does make interesting products that are quite suited to those who don't want sound products that impose visually in the room, and to the average listener they sound good. You are paying for name recognition via very heavy advertising. All of their products at their respective price can be beaten sonically by other brands less well known. McIntosh makes very good (not the best) sounding equipment and their gear is built like a tank. Their appeal has always been the blue meters that beam out at you and signify the Mac brand. I had one of their amps and it did perform quite well for over 25 years before I learned better sound could be had for less money. Their gear is over-built and well made but you break your back moving it. My amp was right at 100 pounds. Oomph!!! Many have suggested visiting Decware for the full monty demo. I agree, it would give you a great understanding of Decware if a trip to E. Peoria is possible. In any system the speakers make the most impact into the kind of sound you will be getting. They also sometimes dictate your room and setup decisions. Large planar dipoles for example pull a lot of power and require that they be placed well into the room. I had Magnepan speakers not long ago and they are not good speakers for Decware amps. Decware amps (lower power models) work best with high sensitivity speakers as has already been stated. Their upper amps (ZMA and Monos) will work well with moderate sensitivity speakers (87dB and up) provided the speaker isn't a complex load (multiple crossovers and wide impedance swings). I use my ZMA amp with JansZen hybrid electrostatic speakers. These are only 87dB sensitive but an easy load for the the ZMA. Steve's speakers are both high sensitivity and an easy load, a great combination. |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by beowulf on 03/06/15 at 23:02:32 Scrapper's MIA ... he's probably busy moving "product" for that 25K he is going to use as his budget. :) |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by Scrapper Dan on 03/07/15 at 02:44:45 easy now guys, I've been lurking and reading up a bunch(and production has been heavy too) I would love to come Pay a visit, I'll have to see when the next time I'm state side visiting my associates if I can fit illinios in. I did manage to do some research on cabling and found a guy not to far from my home town that's into making high end speaker wire, his company is called Wire Tech. He says he runs solid single core wire made from blue spun titanium then isolates each strand in a fabric sheathing. He charges around 150/ft. but says he'd cut me a deal if I take care of a few things for him. As far as the McIntosh stuff goes, I did some more research and it seems over priced for what you get. I do have the 20k to spend but don't want to spend it like an ass hole, you know? |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by Scrapper Dan on 03/07/15 at 02:49:52 Oh and as far as the bose stuff was actually some cheap knock offs, had the name Bowers & Wilkin on it, could barely read the Wilkin it was wore off, cheapos. |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by Donnie on 03/07/15 at 03:02:43 Titanium cables interest me. The properties of it makes sense. I do wonder about the sound and the cost. It wouldn't ever corrode, that's for sure. They wouldn't be heavy. I wonder how they terminate because Ti doesn't like to bend. Nasty stuff to cut and handle. |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by Syd on 03/07/15 at 10:33:16 Dan, nothing in the world would make you go all in on a Decware amp line up,( and speakers ) thats not gong to happen. You`ve not heard them, how could you justify it to yourself while waiting 3 mnths. You`d be in a limbo, blown a stack, what have I done, will I like it, if I dont I`ll feel like s***. I ended up with 4 pieces. Took the plunge on the phono pre and the first 3 mnths isn`t fun. It`s easy now for me to say there is no hype. If I factor in my speakers, vinyl rig, we`re, well I dont like adding it up because it`s a lot of dosh. And future upgrades are all in the audiophile range instead of motr. I scored a nice cart because the ZP3 just goes in/out, now the ZP3 says I should get a new TT one day. Then theres the xtra shipping, and Mr. Wonderful the customs man. It`s a small hurdle. |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by Scrapper Dan on 03/08/15 at 03:54:18 Lol customs won't be an issue... |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by Donnie on 03/08/15 at 22:29:04 Scrapper, If you don't mind me asking, where are you located? I was looking for Wire Tech and couldn't find them. The titanium cables have piqued my interest. |
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Title: Re: Newbie Chiming In Post by Lon on 03/08/15 at 22:49:36 I know Pure Note makes a Titanium interconnect, though the wire inside is Palladium, the titanium is a component of the jacket I believe. |
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