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AUDIO FORUMS >> General Discussion and Support >> Why Decware gear over alternatives?
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Message started by Fireblade on 12/30/11 at 13:32:25

Title: Why Decware gear over alternatives?
Post by Fireblade on 12/30/11 at 13:32:25

Hello all! I would like to kindly ask for your impartial, first-hand experience-based opinions on your current (or recent ownership of) Decware audio gear.

Specifically, I would like to know what exactly do you like and dislike of your Decware audio gear. What made you choose Decware over SS alternatives, as well as other Tube equipment offers. Were/are you still satisfied with your choice, even some time after your purchase?

I'm an imminent prospective customer and would like to hear what you have to say, particularly on the SE84C+, SE34i.2+ and Mini-Torii models, as well as the ZStage accessory.

Thanks so much for your kind assistance. Good. listening to all

Title: Re: Why Decware gear over alternatives?
Post by Lon on 12/30/11 at 14:24:45

Okay, first off I'll say I have no first hand experience with the SE84C+, Mini-Torii and ZSTAGE models.

I got into Decware when I bought the 27th little amp Steve built. I had been looking into SET amps because the stereo mags were talking about them as the new "IT" girl of amps, and I had heard a Cary amp in a friend of my Dad's system. At the time I had moved from a Proton SS setup to using a 1959 EICO integrated stereo amp, good old push-pull fifties amp.

What I didn't like about the Decware amps for some time was a bright sound incorporated in with the great detail and pace. I refer to it as a "sunshine sound". . . I think in part it's the nature of the Decware small SET amps and partly the bad power I had here. . . if you had the wrong cabling it was fatiguing. It took me some time to finally get most of that sunshine into a shady corner. I'm a fan of mellow and darker sound. I finally got cleaner power, the right tube sets and cabling, and when I moved to the SE34 Monoblocks (you won't find those on the website, discontinued) and then the Integrated and then the Torii Mk II and Mk III the sound was wonderful. I also was able to move the system out into the larger living-room/dining-room from a small listening room which really floated my boat. I now have sound I only dreamed of before.

The thing I love about my current set up is that I can listen to any of my recordings and mostly get out of 'audiophile mode'---that is I can just enjoy the music and not keep thinking about how bad the system makes the crappy recording sound, or how I wish the top end was a little sweeter, etc. The speakers have a lot to do with that, the ERRs and the HR-1s are excellent and with their omni-directional sound a bit more forgiving. The Mk III with its treble cut circuit and sweet powerful sound is part of that too. As are the PS Audio power components. The final component was the excellent source I know have for my music discs; the one thing that I have to say I've learned to be not so fond of over the years about the Decware line is that they are so revealing---they show you the limitations in all the components associated with them. This year I finally had to face the fact that my system deserved a really fine source, and I imperilled my finances to get one. I've become very happy and relaxed at last with my stereo. My new source is the icing on the cake and I feel I'm set.

Another thing to love about the Decware line is the amazing build quality. And the fact that the components are backed by Steve with an incredible warranty and attention. I have something beginning to go wrong with my Mk III, a rectifier socket seems to be getting picky. I know that I'll be able to send it back and have it repaired, and can have the bass-control circuit added too if I do. You're never left alone when you have a problem. It can take time to be fixed, but it will be fixed.

The one thing that I really find disquieting about Decware though is that the models are often updated and changed, for the better. You save up, you finally get in your hands the model you've wanted so long, and a month later there's a new feature on an improved version talked up and for sale. This has happened to me several times and it drives me a bit mad. I'd be happier if the model were just left alone. They're fantastic when released. If you make ground-breaking advances, wait til you have a handful and create a new model that incorporates them. That's the way I'd prefer to see it, as it's a hassle for me (with no four wheeled vehicle) to get items back in the mail and the wait can be agonizingly long for its return.

Anyway, I've been using Decware components for fourteen years, and I honestly can't imagine NOT having Decware components in my system. They're just the type of quality, American made equipment I look for.

Title: Re: Why Decware gear over alternatives?
Post by Fireblade on 12/30/11 at 15:48:40

Hi Lon! Glad to hear your thoughts on the topic, thank you. Could you explain why you replaced your Monos, then the integrated, then the Torii II? Was it because of something(s) not totally satisfying on these pieces?

Presumably, you had by then already fine-tuned the system's context, so why the replacements? Lack of enough power? or Bass? Or was it plain curiosity to see if things could be even better?

Also, do you miss anything with your current Torii from what you left behind as earlier models? For example, the PP Torii II & III are classic PP designs. Could you describe the difference with the SET-based amps (other than raw power, of course).

I'm sorry to bother you further with all these questions, but to me these are crucial points to understand for my own possible learning curve. I'm trying to limit the trial-and-error process that I may end-up with if I ignore previous users' experiences.

Much obliged for your patience, Lon. Hopefuly, I wont be asking you guys so many things soon. Good listening ...

Title: Re: Why Decware gear over alternatives?
Post by Pale Rider on 12/30/11 at 15:54:34

Fun topic. More to come I am sure. Unlike Lon, I have been a Decware owner for less than a year, hard for me to believe. I was first exposed to Decware over on Head-Fi, where I had begun to go through the wallet-sucking upgrade process on quality portable headphone gear. I was intrigued, but ultimately did not buy the Decware portable headphone amp. As I upgraded my desktop headphone rig, I eventually ended up with a set of Audez'e LCD-2 headphones. They sounded pretty good on my RSA Apache headphone amp (a beautiful, and great-sounding $3k SS headphone amp). But there were some tracks on which the Apache was clipping. So, I set about looking for power, and was referred to the Taboo. I placed an order, at the same time as I also ordered a Cavalli Liquid Fire hybrid headphone amp. I love both, but I fell in love with the Taboo. The Taboo makes the Audez'e sing. So can the LF, but with the Taboo, they sing with delight.

I had been out of hi-fi audio for about twenty years, having settled on the occasional mid-fi home theater experience plus very high quality headphones. The Taboo changed that, and then Steve announced the Ultra, something that seemed almost too good to be true (and it is; it is both too good and true). It seemed to address the divide, or at least part of it, between hi-fi and HT. And I needed something that could give me that in one room.

Based on the Taboo (my last tube amp was a Dyna ST-70 when I was a kid), I went all in. I ordered the Ultra, two Torii Mk III amps, an SE84ZS, and three pairs of ERRs and all kinds of cables. And then I started waiting. As Lon notes, this is really all custom product. And it is subject to the output capabilities of a small group of very dedicated people. But eventually, everything showed up, and I gradually assembled a mostly analog system. my sources are all-digital: PS Audio PerfectWaveDAC (waiting on Mk II upgrade now) w/ Bridge reading files off an NAS, an Oppo BDP-95 BluRay player, 2 AppleTV units, etc. I also have two PS Audio Power Plant Premiers, because as Steve warned, the new equipment would be very revealing of shortcomings in everything, including power. Perhaps I should say "appreciative." Because as you improve your system, the Decware equipment simply keeps revealing more. So, when you upgrade your power, the Decware shows its appreciation.

I agree with Lon's observations about the pluses (and few minuses) of dealing with an always evolving product line and a company like Decware. The pluses staggeringly outweigh the minuses.

Most importantly, I simply enjoy the music. When I force myself to sit and listen to the sound, critically compare tubes, compare recordings, etc., I can also enjoy the sheer technical beauty and capacity of the equipment. But I only do that when I stop listening to the music, which is increasingly less frequent.

An unexpected side benefit has been that my wife and kids really love the equipment, and we all are listening to much more music, and the TV is on much less. My 15yo daughter has taken an interest in tubes. This is a benefit unique to my circumstances, but it is certainly pleasant.

Title: Re: Why Decware gear over alternatives?
Post by Lon on 12/30/11 at 16:11:36

FB, the main reason I made the changes in all instances was because of speakers and room size. I fell in love with Steve's Radial design of speakers, and the RL2s that I used for some time (still have them, now not in use) were far less efficient than yours and I felt that the power that the Monoblocks and Integrated have would be a benefit. And they were. Also when I came out of a two year battle with my wife's lymphoma and lost her, I had some money and really needed cheering up so I got the Integrated, which I really loved the sound of, it was more adjustable and more forgiving of source material than the Monoblocks as it had a input gain stage and tube rectification. I had moved the system out to the living-room/dining-room area and integrated it with my TV/DVD/Blu-ray sources and ultimately I then needed more power for video sources. So I bought a Torii for the power. I needed the power, and it made the speakers SING and I felt I had plenty of headroom. I think the Torii (I have a Mk II in my bedroom system and a Mk III in my main system) is the real jewel in the line up: it sounds very much like the SET smaller amps AND it has gobs of power AND it's so "tuneable" with three regluation/rectification circuits and out of the signal path tonal adjustments. I really don't think I ever had the right speakers for the SE84 amps I've had, but I do think there's some tiny bit of different magic in those, but I didn't fully realize it in any of my rooms and so I don't regret not having them at all and making the choices I have. If I were to end up in a different bedroom one day (still a possibility as when and if my girlfriend and I move in together it would have to be in a different house than either of ours) I'd love to be able to buy the SE84 Monoblocks and one of the more efficient of Steve's speakers OR the DNA horns with the built-in SE84 amps---that would make a great small room audio only system with lots of mojo, I'm sure of it.

My journey began a lot like yours as far as interest and thinking of "pure audio chain" etc. It ended up with 24 watt push pull (that sound like SET) amps . . . and it was a happy journey, but I'm happiest here at the end!

Title: Re: Why Decware gear over alternatives?
Post by Fireblade on 12/30/11 at 16:29:03

Hi Pale Rider, good to know about your perspective. Thanks for sharing this. Wow! what a trip you've had. I've always been curious by headphones, and I even once considered it as an easier means to get into high-end with the minimum of physical hassle. Yet, using headphones for me is somewhat restrictive. I like to be able to move around and feel the music in the listening room around me, not only listening it only through the headphones.

I'm also not interested in hi-fi HT, really. Actually, I don't see much TV if at all, and prefer watching films every now and then, which I tend to process exclusively through my other laptop. My wife is not inclined to Hi-Fi at all, and she watches the shows on normal Mid-Fi HT.

Although for very different applications in your case, could you advance essential differences between the SET based Taboo amp and now the PP amp models you are using?

Thanks so much for your kind feedback. Take care now ...

Title: Re: Why Decware gear over alternatives?
Post by Fireblade on 12/30/11 at 17:01:34

Lon, thanks for your patience. I'm sorry to learn about the difficult circumstances triggering some of the changes described.

So, you have stated that basically both PP´s and SETs sound great, in their relative contexts, am I right? This is great news, as I have never listened to SETs before. Many years back I used to own VTL 225 Deluxe monoblocks, a classic PP topography, Class AB, which sounded great at mid frequencies, somewhat rolling off at highs, but unfortunately with a relative diffused (not tight) lower bass. I owned those from june 1993 until january of 2000, and enjoyed them very much anyhow.

I do not need the power with the new high sensitivity speakers on offer these days, and a relatively small listening room, so I'm chasing for sound quality in a simple, SET-based rig. That should do it for me.

You know, I've been many times suggested the Bob Latino's Dynaco VTA ST-70 clone as a well-built, upgraded new version of the original PP classic (as the one Pale Rider was talking about).

This is a kit, but you can order it wired, ready to plug and play. It is a PP AB1 proposition at 35 W/c, using a stepped attenuator and either EL34 or KT88 output tubes. Somewhat less expensive at $1,145.00 total, so I wonder about the quality and sound on those. Currently, I have no doubts about Decware's quality engineering and workmanship.

Anyway, thanks again for the valuable feedback. I'm glad you have both found your audio Nirvanas. Good riding ...

Title: Re: Why Decware gear over alternatives?
Post by ski bum on 12/30/11 at 20:46:13

Hmm. Could write a lot to answer Fireblade's questions. I own a pair of SE84C+.

Why those over other SET options? There is a wide variety of sound signatures when it comes to these types of amplifiers, on top of the idiosyncratic way they play with speakers. Steve's particular recipe seems to be more on the 'dry, fast, clear' end of the SET spectrum, as opposed to those that are more 'bloomy' or 'syrupy'. The Decware sound is crystal clear with great tone. Piano, vibes, vocals, and other harmonically complex info is rendered with such a compelling sense of realism, it does indeed raise goosebumps.

Why not pp tubes? For me, they are too expensive, require more maintenance, and not 'different' enough to warrant the trouble. The wife thinks I have far too many amps as it is.

Decware vs. SS: I've heard plenty high zoot ss amps, and had the pleasure to live with some class A Pass jobs for a while. Compared to just about any mainstream class A/B ss amp, the little Decware amps just kill them in the detail department. You have to really open the wallet to get their level of sheer transparency with SS.

The biggest issue is low power output. High sensitivity speakers are a must for any semblance of musical power. If used in a system with some sort of bass management to lighten their load, their dynamic capabilities increase quite a bit. For example, I have a pair of ~92db/w speakers high passed at 120 Hz, and the Decware will drive them as loud as it will a pair 99db/w speakers run full range.

Title: Re: Why Decware gear over alternatives?
Post by Fireblade on 12/30/11 at 22:00:07

Hello ski bum, thank you for sharing your points of view. I'm happy to read this, as your description seems to cover almost all the attributes I'm looking for my next amp.

Of course, there are a couple of things I do not recall anybody mentioning specifically so far: Musical dynamics and a wide frequency spectrum (i.e., no rolling off at both frequency ends.)

IMHO, an amp ought to be also musical, not analytical. In the particular case of a SET, the designer also needs to look how to overcome a natural tendency of extreme frequency roll-off (at both ends).

The power issue is something I hope will resolve with a relatively small room size, highish speaker sensitivity (95 dBs,Tekton M-Lore), and an active SUB (60Watts), with a XOver at around 200 Hertz (thats the setup I'm using in my existing SS system due to my small bookshelf speakers.)

If for some unforeseen reason worst comes to worst power wise, another amp for bridged monoblocks configuration at close to 6 W/c should tackle that hurdle.

Given my particular needs, I also share your general view on PP's (too much power and cost). I also fear some lost detailing through the dynamics of PP (switching phases, NFB, etc). In any case, if you need the power is a great alternative. I'm optimistic Steve may have been able to work around those tradeoffs successfully.

I apologise for the length of my reply ... Thanks again for the input. Take care now ...

Title: Re: Why Decware gear over alternatives?
Post by Lon on 12/30/11 at 23:06:00

You need have no fear over lack of frequency extension either high or low with Decware amps of any kind. These give you all you would ask for. And dynamics . . .well with Decware amps I learned what dynamics really were.

Title: Re: Why Decware gear over alternatives?
Post by Pale Rider on 12/30/11 at 23:23:23

Lon wrote:

Quote:

Spot on.

Title: Re: Why Decware gear over alternatives?
Post by ski bum on 12/31/11 at 00:17:09

"IMHO, an amp ought to be also musical, not analytical. In the particular case of a SET, the designer also needs to look how to overcome a natural tendency of extreme frequency roll-off (at both ends)."

The SE84 are anything but analytical. They are emminently musical. They may not be as 'lush' or 'romantic' as some SETs, but they make most ss sound fake.

Regarding frequency extremes, any high output impedance, output tranny coupled amp is going to have some issues, it's just the nature of the beast. Steve has made clever choices in his design. The output trannys of the SE84 dig deeper than just about anything until you crack into much higher priced gear.

"The power issue is something I hope will resolve with a relatively small room size, highish speaker sensitivity (95 dBs,Tekton M-Lore), and an active SUB (60Watts), with a XOver at around 200 Hertz (thats the setup I'm using in my existing SS system due to my small bookshelf speakers.)"

The Lore is a fairly low 4-ohm nominal load, and very sensitive. That sounds like exactly what the small Decware SETs are made for. I think you're in for some serious musical fun.

I have had excellent results when relieving my SE84's of bass duties. You may be able to get away with just one.

Title: Re: Why Decware gear over alternatives?
Post by Fireblade on 12/31/11 at 14:18:35

Hey guys, thanks to all for the reassurances. 'Sounds' good to me. I can't wait! ... One thing I can say, is this forum seems to be really loyal to the Decware brand, which speaks for itself. Feels like being part of a relatively small, 'different' group of fans and all, like family!

Happy New Year!

Title: Re: Why Decware gear over alternatives?
Post by Rivieraranch on 01/01/12 at 17:40:43

Fire:

I do not believe enough has been written under this topic about DECWARE's customer service and commitment to the customer's overall satisfying audio experience.

I began using tube equipment in 2005. My first piece was a Jolida 102B EL84 push pull amp. I thought it sounded a lot better than the solid state NAD amp that it replaced. The NAD had fizzled out and I became disenchanted with it. After that I acquired a Jolida 202A, then thereafter a 302B. The Jolida gear was good and it sounded nice, with tube warmth in spades.

In either 2006 or 2007 I bought a DECWARE MLB Headphone amplifier from an ebay auction. I sent it back to DECWARE for some work. When they returned the MLB it was much improved in its function; the work did not cost very much. I recall speaking with Steve Deckert about it at the time. I was impressed with the service I received, not even being their customer.

Since then I have purchased probably 6 pieces of equipment. Through this audio trek I have had many conversations with Steve, Sarah and Devon. They have impressed me with their competence, patience and diligence.

They make this forum available for topics such as this. You can speak directly with the CEO and designer about anything. The transparency of the DECWARE business rivals the transparency of their SE84C+ amp. Everybody is invited each year to DECFEST where you can visit the DECWARE factory. They are not hiding anything!

So when you ask "why DECWARE over alternatives?" This is an important part of the story.

Title: Re: Why Decware gear over alternatives?
Post by Fireblade on 01/01/12 at 18:06:54

Excelent environment for the high-end enthusiast, most definitely. There are other choices around, in Canada, for example, at also competitive prices. Yet, what you mention is essential for the long-term enjoyment of this hobby. Having full, direct support from the technical provider is a rarity these days.

Thanks so much for sharing those thoughts, Rivieraranch, it helps confused newcomers like me trust the system.

Title: Re: Why Decware gear over alternatives?
Post by stone_of_tone on 01/01/12 at 18:16:44

Why Decware..........?
SET Magic............where you don't want to leave your listening chair for hours on end.

Solid State.....sure I own behemoth's? I get ADHD with them though. SeriusXM passive Radio is good with it........and TV or Blu-Ray with visual media holding my attention.

-Stone

Title: Re: Why Decware gear over alternatives?
Post by Lon on 01/01/12 at 18:45:17

Rivieraranch wrote on 01/01/12 at 17:40:43:

Absolutely correct, and you did well to emphasis this, thanks.

Title: Re: Why Decware gear over alternatives?
Post by Fireblade on 01/02/12 at 00:31:41

Ah! SET Magic. You put it well stone_of_tone, that's just the reason of my being here. Could not resist the well presented arguments in the site (Steve seems to also have a marketing talent), the curious little gadgets that promise exactly what you propose: indefinite hours of great music listening! Plus significant literature explaining the main concepts to laymen like me. It all seems to work. Good!

Title: Re: Why Decware gear over alternatives?
Post by Pale Rider on 01/02/12 at 00:33:34

Jim [RR] is right. A very important part of "why Decware," and one that probably cannot be emphasized enough.

Title: Re: Why Decware gear over alternatives?
Post by stone_of_tone on 01/02/12 at 06:36:43

Fireblade, yes, Steve's Papers/Articles are great and I read them again from time to time. You will not be dissapointed with one of these creations. Sarah, DeVon, Steve and Ziggy......Customer Service = Top Notch.
My SE84CS, now the ZS, amazes me still, 10+ years later. I love the original Svetlana SV83 output tubes for this Amp. However, I pop in a GZ34 rectifier with JJ EL84's to remind myself how great it still is at music making with this tube compliment. I use NOS Sovtek 6922 as my pre tube. Happy New Year, Stone

Title: Re: Why Decware gear over alternatives?
Post by Fireblade on 01/02/12 at 14:58:40

Hi Stone, happy 2012 for you too. I understand the ZS is an upgraded version of the Zen Triode, but reading the specs I can't find those upgrades, other than the better cosmetic appearance. Maybe you know something that may justify opting for your model instead (+ $200.00).

I appreciate your long history with this amp (10 years and running!), additional evidence of its quality.

Regarding tube roling, that's something I will probably get into in the future, when I educate myself better on subtle and even not-so-subtle sonic differences among available tubes. Otherwise I would be just guessing. I'll consider your findings though. Take care now ...

Title: Re: Why Decware gear over alternatives?
Post by Rivieraranch on 01/02/12 at 15:05:37

"The SE84ZS is exactly the same amp [as SE84C+] with upgraded internals and in a different chassis."

So there are different parts "under the hood."

Title: Re: Why Decware gear over alternatives?
Post by Fireblade on 01/02/12 at 19:41:27

Hi Riv, yes I was told that by Lon, but I meant I could not find any evidence in the specs, so I guess these changes relate basically to brand names/higher quality internal component replacements.

Thanks for the input. Later ....