Message started by agustinf on 02/15/10 at 13:37:11

Title: csp2 and torii mmkIII
Post by agustinf on 02/15/10 at 13:37:11

Hi everyone, I am new to the forum and to Decware, and I just got my first torii mkIII last week. So this has just started for me, and I have to say the starting point was totally satisfying.

My question is  : is somebody using this amp with CSP2 preamP? any comments you´d like to share?


Title: Re: csp2 and torii mmkIII
Post by Lon on 02/15/10 at 15:47:26

I was using the CSP2 with my Torii Mark II and it sounds good. . . but. . . it's actually better sounding for my system without it. Compressed the sound somewhat which was good for some recordings but not others. When I removed it I was very happy with the sound overall.  I use the CSP2 in my second system now with my Integrated IE24.2.

Unless you need the CSP2 to get three sources into the Torii, I don't think you're missing anything.

Title: Re: csp2 and torii mmkIII
Post by Steve Deckert on 02/15/10 at 16:09:09

Welcome to the forums!

Lon is correct.  The CSP2 in front of the TORII MK II or MK III makes it possible to listen to Pandora Internet radio and or mid-fi CD players during the day and enjoy the results.  At night when you get your good source out, or plan on spinning some LP's, the CSP2 just gets in the way.

What I do personally, is connect my Internet radio and IPod to the CSP2 and feed that to ONE of the TORII MK III inputs.  Then I hook either my best DAC or Vinyl rig up to the second input on the TORII.  This way I've got it covered and can enjoy the amp on a wide variety of sources....  For example, I put the really good DAC on hooked direct to the TORII because I want to listen to a new CD everyone is talking about. I press play and agree, the music is killer, but the recording is a disappointment (and for me a distraction). Rather than giving up and feeling frustrated, I simply plug the DAC into the CSP2 and then enjoy the music.  Somehow it fixes it.

Title: Re: csp2 and torii mmkIII
Post by Lon on 02/15/10 at 16:37:56

Yes, welcome, and also, congrats on being among the first to receive a Torii III!  

Title: Re: csp2 and torii mmkIII
Post by agustinf on 02/15/10 at 18:29:33

Thanks for the warm welcome!

Title: Re: csp2 and torii mmkIII
Post by Lon on 02/16/10 at 15:39:26

Be sure and give us some impressions of your new Mark III!

Title: Re: csp2 and torii mmkIII
Post by agustinf on 02/21/10 at 15:20:37

So, after a week or so of using the amp, I am HAPPY.

I haven´t fully explored the amp yet, though. One of the reasons for that is that it is really true what they say about it being really sensitive to whatever else you have in your system. I´ve decided I´m only using a CDP as a source as I can fine tune better cables, speakers and power chords and conditioners that way. The wild beasts coming through IMAC-Apple TV-optical tosling-MegabitHz DAC are too wild to keep under control.
I found IC are major concern (and I carry mediocre stuff in that department) as they can make this amp sound a bit too bright (although of course you can trim that down with the impressive treble control in the amp!!). I love the sound of my speakers (LOTH AMAZE) but they may be a bit challenged in the lower end (specially if they are not placed correctly, as in my case), so in a rather big listening  room I´d rather start looking for a fuller single drive speaker, or a 2 way.

Take care

Title: Re: csp2 and torii mmkIII
Post by Lon on 02/21/10 at 16:15:22


You're right, Decware products will make you seek out the best in cabling and components.

After more than a decade of using Decware amps I've found a real synergy exists between the Decware amps and other Decware components and cables.  I recommend trying the Decware intereconnects and speaker cables as they are astonishingly good for the price and will allow your amp to shine. Also, I've become a great fan of the Decsare Radial designs to the point that I doubt I'll be happy with other designs.  I recommend trying out the ERR speakers, I'm eager to, I have two cousins of that design in use, the RL2 in my second system and the IT Radial speaker that Bob Zeigler makes (amazing speakers!) in my main system powered (now, I have a Mark III on order) by my Torii Mark II. The Torii has made the speakers soar!

I've also found an online site that has some great quality cabling at a discount, HCM Audio.

Title: Re: csp2 and torii mmkIII
Post by Doorman on 02/21/10 at 17:45:29

Hi Lon- Is that the correct URL? It sounds interesting, but the link doesn't work for me

Title: Re: csp2 and torii mmkIII
Post by Lon on 02/21/10 at 21:30:48

As I hope you've discovered it is the right link.  I removed it and added it again as just a simple paste rather than labeled as a link and it works.  Works if you just cut and paste into the browser as well.

There's some silver interconnects from Audioquest on there that I have heard are really good (anecdotal evidence, I know, but I sort of trust the ears I've heard it from) at a great price.  But then so are Decware interconnects.  I ordered a pair recently in 2 meter length because you can't get the Decware in that length; I haven't received them yet.  I need that length to run my dvr to the Torii. Some nice deals there, and I've heard it's a good store to work with.

Title: Re: csp2 and torii mmkIII
Post by agustinf on 03/21/10 at 16:42:54

Well, I had arranged my system as suggested above, connecting the best sounding source/recording directly to my Torii III, and the other stuff indirectly through a preamp (Not the CSP2). And I was happy to live with that.

BUT. I´ve been switching cables for a while, and I had excellent results with SUPRA interconnects. It is a non-expensice IC that you can buy unterminated by ft, or terminated. I terminated them myself using RCA plugs i read about in 6moons, with non lead non silver soldering. Don´t ask me why, but the bad recording / bad source problem has not returned yet. I am getting as much as I expect for every CD I am playing (some of those were not quite OK in the previous direct setup).

Please note that I am not sure if this makes sense, it rather doesen´t. But it worked fine for me. Bear in mind also that I never had the chance to compare to top level ICs (the best I have is, I think, Better Cables Silver Serpent II with Eichmann bullets).

Title: Re: csp2 and torii mmkIII
Post by Lon on 03/21/10 at 20:11:24


Sounds as if you're really enjoying the system now and that's great news.  Isn't it amazing what cables can do?  I find that once you get to the level of transparency Decware amps provide, you can really hear what cables do in your system!

Title: Re: csp2 and torii mmkIII
Post by agustinf on 09/25/10 at 20:45:31

Hi everyone. just an update here.

I´ve added a CSP2+ to my system, and since I initated this thread about synergies witih MKIII, I wanted to post a few impressions. A GREAT combo. I was ready to use it for the not so good recordings, but I found out that I like the sound of the two units working together, that I hardly run the MKIII direc any more.

Don´t get me wrong, especially with good recordings, the amp with no pre really gets the music hanging in the air. It could be that adding a PRE gets you a different experience (more single endedness in the Torii, maybe?).


Title: Re: csp2 and torii mmkIII
Post by Lon on 12/05/10 at 18:28:17


Re-reading your post last week caused me to put my CSP2 into the system.

I had previously been experiencing some hum issues with the CSP2 that I finally determined was the input tube.  I had to warm up and break in a new tube in that position but I soon started experimenting with the output level of the CSP2, footers and was able to come up with the same cabling my ZDAC-1 and SCD-XA5400ES have, that is all Decware for power and interconnect. I find if I keep the output levels at about ten o'clock I get a very transparent and dynamic sound and as you note there seems more body and dimension to the sound. The result is equally impressive for all my sources and after it has cooked in a handful of days the CSP2 earned the right to settle in for a while. And I feel less guilty now that it is in place about the CSP2 not getting much use in 2010.

It's clear to me now that I did not have the CSP2 at its best before, between the hum and positions of the output pots. Thanks for inspiring me to try again.  It's added a bit of fun to the week.

I imagine this is very similar to the way that a ZStage would influence the sound of a system, and has an additional input.

Title: Re: csp2 and torii mmkIII
Post by agustinf on 12/05/10 at 18:57:24

Good you´re having fun, Lon.

On the output levels, me too I prefer to have them rather low.

And tube rolling can do amazing things on the CSP2! I enjoyed improving the 5ua to an old stock, and the input tube to a NOS.


Title: Re: csp2 and torii mmkIII
Post by Lon on 12/05/10 at 19:06:15

I'm running an old RCA for the rectifier, enjoying that a lot. I may experiment with a few others, but tube-rolling led to a lot of crazy dissatisfaction for me and I'm still leary to jump back in. :)

Title: Re: csp2 and torii mmkIII
Post by 4krow on 12/13/10 at 01:37:35

You know, round and round it goes for me. Kinda fun in some ways, but not all ways. To explain; I just sold a SE34.1 that I added the CCE mod to and even replaced some internal wiring. The sound was so sweet....then I had to change less efficient speakers. This in turn caused me to sell my beloved amp. In the future, I will definitely want to get a Torii, so that I wont run out of power, and just as importantly, I will have a Decware amp! I am running with a Threshold T50, and a Forte 3, but the sound is nothing that I would enjoy like with the Decaware equipment.

Title: Re: csp2 and torii mmkIII
Post by Lon on 01/10/11 at 15:15:00


I'm constantly amazed by my Torii MK III. I have to admit sometimes I read what Steve writes and it seems hyperbole, exaggeration, sales pitch. But in the end, when you begin to have the sort of experience that he has with listening to the amp, they're seen as accurate assessment. The Torii has revealed it's glory to me with every improvement I make in any area of the system from cabling to isolation support to improved source components. I honestly believe that used with almost any speaker I'd ever be likely to buy it will never be the weakest link. I'm always impressed at what it reveals about each recording, and how it is able to weave all the different information on any recording and make a musical tapestry of it, that sways with the wind of the sound and ripples with the detail.

Using the CSP2 in tandem with the MK III these last weeks has been quite instructive and intriguing. It does sort of lead me into the madness that tube rolling induces :) There are so many potentials within adjusting the output gain of each/both channels, and adjusting the volumes between the preamp and amp. You can thicken the sound, you can thin the sound, you can find dynamics that lie hidden until your searchlight hits them. I was actually SCARED by an Opeth recording on this amp that had a portion that went from a whisper to silence to a sudden intense roar. I've heard the track a number of times on several systems here and at a friend's, but never has it come alive like an animal in a living-room before!  

I'm here to tell you that you can have amazing sound using just the gain available on the MK III itself, but you can really fine tune with a CSP2, and I'm sure that there's a similar experience involved when a ZStage is used with the MK III.

I hope you get a MK III as soon as you can.  I can already sense the enjoyment you'll have day after day.

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