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https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl EQUIPMENT FORUMS >> SE84UFO >> The Christmas comes early mod! https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1243915681 Message started by Steve Deckert on 06/02/09 at 05:08:01 |
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Title: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Steve Deckert on 06/02/09 at 05:08:01 The CCE mod is now available for all Decware amplifies that use EL34's or SV83's (aka 6P15P-EV) https://www.decware.com/newsite/paper145.htm This is big news... If you love your Zen amp, and your ears are dialed into it, this will frankly blow you mind. You'll shake your head for at least a year, every time you listen to it. It improves the power, improves the punch, improves the midrange, basically it improves everything. Steve [smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif] |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by mike_gagne on 06/02/09 at 09:13:31 Steve, will this become a feature of your Zkit line also? |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Jeff on 06/02/09 at 15:46:26 does this mod apply to the taboo also? would i still be able to use el84 tubes? |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by michkhol on 06/03/09 at 20:00:30 Steve, could you publish the phase response (as a function of frequency) of the amplifier before and after the mod? thanks. |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Steve Deckert on 06/03/09 at 23:14:15 Mike, Not sure on the ZKIT1 and ZKIT2. I may add the option to both boards when I run out of the ones I have. However it's not hard to modify the existing boards. Jeff, The mod will work on the Taboo if you use the 6P15P-EV tubes. When EL84's are used it will sound exactly the same as it does now. This is also true with the SE84C family of amps. Michkhol, Yea, I could do that next time we check one. -Steve |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Brett on 06/05/09 at 20:01:34 Steve, For us SE84 kit owners, is there a particular value of film cap we should use? Thanks, -Brett |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Steve Deckert on 06/05/09 at 21:26:15 Use a 0.1uf 400V polyester film |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Brett on 06/06/09 at 00:35:24 Well the mod is a success. I've had my Zen for many years now, and it has never ceased to impress how high it's fidelity can get within reasonable means. This tweak has brought this amp to another level, and it's exciting to think that it can be done without raising the cost much. Thanks to Mr Hazen and Mr Deckert for discovering yet another way to make these unassuming amps embarrass expensive gear. The word 'bloom' keeps coming up in my mind. Dynamics are improved by a large degree. Everything is now more distinct in the separations of instruments in the image, and subtle textures in voices and recording effects. Everything sounds fuller as music surrounds your area with more presence. It absolutely sounds more pleasant to the ear. The speakers do seem to be disappearing more and a sibilance noticeable on certain albums has smoothed out revealing more details in the mix. Bass is also more detailed and is finding perfect balance with the rest of the spectrum. For such a subtle change to the circuit, the effect is really quite surprising. I'm finding it really easy to switch off critical thought and take in the recordings. It's a very inviting presentation. I have already upgraded to V-Caps, and I would say this is easily as beneficial if not more. Like the V-Caps, it enhances every aspect of the amp without losing any of it's best qualities. The upgrade is certainly worth the asking price. And considering all those used zen amps out there, offering a lifetime warranty along with the upgrade is a sweet deal. -Brett |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by d_zoolander on 06/07/09 at 04:11:00 Steve In Taboo schematics, I see the the suppressor grid connected to the cathode. Is this internally connected? Because, I see nothing connected to pin 6 inside the amp (pin 6 is the suppressor grid I believe?). Thanks Derek |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Steve Deckert on 06/08/09 at 02:31:01 In the Taboo schematic an EL84 is used, which is internally connected. As we all know, a 6P15P-EV also works in the Taboo. -Steve |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by d_zoolander on 06/08/09 at 03:41:00 So when 6p15p-EV is used, the suppressor grid is 'floating'? Thanks |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by proud_indian on 06/08/09 at 05:55:54 Steve, You said this mod can be done at your place. For guys like us, who cannot send the gear to you, what are the available options? Any form of a DIY or something? shreekant :) |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Lon on 06/08/09 at 11:12:08 Also Steve, See Shreekant's question in the ZKit 5 forum. . . . Thanks. |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Steve Deckert on 06/09/09 at 15:30:01 zoolander, yes the suppressor grid is floating. proud_indian, connect a 0.1uf 400V polyether cap between pins 3 and 6 of both output tubes. lon, answered it on audiophiletalk since he posted it there first. |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Lon on 06/09/09 at 15:30:55 Thanks, I didn't see that because I'm no longer going to post at that place. |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by proud_indian on 06/09/09 at 17:58:32 Thanks Steve!! Got the glow working!! Will post about the Zkit4&5 soon. shreekant :) |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by d_zoolander on 06/09/09 at 18:52:12 I have done the mod and the result is unbelievable! I will be shaking my head for a long time ;D |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Homey on 06/10/09 at 08:55:41 Ho Ho Ho I'm sending my SE34i (original) to Steve for the mod. Steve will this work with KT66 tubes? I know some 34i owners have been using these tubes in place of the EL34, Myself I have not tried them, I have been using the Ruby BSTR EL34's & winged C's |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by proud_indian on 06/11/09 at 05:44:51 Steve, Some clarification required. I have the 84C Does this mod only work with the 6P15P-EV tubes, or will it work with the SV83 and El84 as well on this amp. shreekant :) |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by d_zoolander on 06/11/09 at 05:57:52 Reading Steve's paper, this mod will only work for SV83 (or 6p15p-EV) and EL34 tubes. In EL84, pin 6 and pin 3 are internally connected so connecting them externally won't do anything to the sound. |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by proud_indian on 06/11/09 at 07:22:42 Yes Zoo. Brett just confirmed that to me. I will be trying it today, as I do have some 6P15P-EV around. Too bad for the Mullard EL84's though :( shreekant :) |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by proud_indian on 06/12/09 at 10:14:59 Did the mod, and it is very good. Makes a difference all round. Definitely one of the best mods on the amp. shreekant :) |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by veryoldcat on 06/14/09 at 19:22:20 Anyone who has ANY version of the SE84 amps should IMMEDIATELY have this mod done. The improvement is FAR more than just a tweak. Now I've just gotta try it on my old ST70, as well (with an EL34 you'd connect pin 1 and pin 8, if I have it right). Don't waste a single day if your amp uses the SV83--send it in immediately!!! Cheers, Karl |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by ZYGI on 06/14/09 at 20:04:56 Karl, I couldn't agree more, there are no tubes out there, at any cost that are as good as this tweak. I've been using it on the Torri-I for about 3 weeks, and I'm still amazed. I did mine with a switch, so I could have it both ways, the switch was a complete waste of time. This was right after Dennis had done it to Rachel, his integrated, (SE34-I) and Steve wasn't sure it would work, or if I would even like it on the Torri-I. He was so excited about it, which got my curiosity up, I tried it that night. When the switch takes the cap out of the loop, it is almost un-listenable, yet its the same amp as I've always had. Yes it goes between 1 and 8. for the EL34 BobZ |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Lon on 06/14/09 at 21:04:21 Amazing! I've been enjoying the heck out of my Torii Mark II which Steve let me know ahs incorporated the mod. I haven't heard the amp without it but as great as this amp sounds, I'd I'd say "GO FOR IT!" |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by veryoldcat on 06/15/09 at 00:54:23 Thx, Zyg, for posting! Well I've run low on .1's of the same type in my parts bin, so gotta go get a few more for the old ST70. I WISH it was a Torii II I was modding, but that'll just have to wait til my ship comes in, if it ever does ::). Does it make a hoot of a diff if the cap is anything more than of your garden variety generic metallized poly film construction? I think earlier in the thread Steve even said polyester construction (ie mylar) was just fine. Karl |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by ZYGI on 06/15/09 at 02:33:25 Karl, I wish I had heard the Torri-II with the mod :'( but I liked the Torri-I had had better, so I guess I can live with it. I just used some Jentzen Cross caps in the Taboo this afternoon and they worked just fine. BobZ |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by stone_of_tone on 06/15/09 at 04:16:37 Hey guys, I'm assuming the original SV83 tube applies for the mod (6 & 3 not internally connected). I love this original Svetlana SV83 (6n15nM). If the house was burning and the kids and wife are already safe....I'm going in to get my 6n15nM's. Stone of Tone |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by veryoldcat on 06/15/09 at 04:37:06 Yo, Stone, Yes, exactly the same with the Svetlana SV83's... Karl |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by jaco03 on 06/16/09 at 02:53:33 hi can anyone who has done the mod for the sv83 and the el34 please post a diagram as to where the caps go and a brief how to? thanks in advance |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by d_zoolander on 06/16/09 at 04:25:49  This is the pin out for SV83 The capacitor connects pins 6 and 3. To get a 'reference', trace which pin connects to the B+ inside the amp (In SE84C/S this should be pin 7). Pin 9 is also connected to B+ via 1K resistor. |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by michkhol on 06/22/09 at 04:57:06 I have a SE34I.2 with stock rectifiers, Russian Mullard el34 and 6N23P drivers. The speakers used were Decware HDT. I decided to measure the transfer function for power and phase before and after the mod. The signal was taken directly from the output transformer in parallel with the speakers. Only the left channel is shown. The first graph is for the switch in the position "less bass". Yellow is before the mod, cyan is after.  The second graph is for the switch in the position "more bass". Pink is before the mod, green is after.  Note: the pictures represent the difference between the control and test signals, the absolute value has no meaning here. Only deviation from the straight line matters. The listening experience in general confirms the visual representation. The sound stage became more up-front, did not notice much difference in clarity. |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Steve Deckert on 06/22/09 at 20:31:04 The SE34I.2 has a 1K~2W resistor between pin 3 (plate) and pin 1 (grid). This resistor must be removed before doing the Christmas comes early mod. - Steve |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by michkhol on 06/23/09 at 05:10:14 Steve, the graphs have been updated. I see almost no static difference before and after the mod. However for both cases the instantaneous dispersion of the transfer function for power and phase was quite substantial (up to 10dB and 240 degrees) during listening especially in the bass region (below 250 Hz). I cannot however imagine how it can contribute to more or less clarity and true dynamics. |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Steve Deckert on 06/23/09 at 16:10:49 Sorry, hit the wrong button. I didn't really modify your post. I see the graphs have been changed. Can I assume then that on the original post the 1K 2W resistor was still in place? Also not sure exactly what you're trying to say with "instantaneous dispersion" or where you get 10dB and 240 degrees? True dynamics has nothing to do with the amount of voltage swing in the context I wrote it - but rather how clean the dynamics are rendered. I would be curious more about what you hear vs. imagine is possible. Are you hearing any change? Steve |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by michkhol on 06/23/09 at 19:26:33 No worries, I just mean that I updated the graphs after I removed the resistor. The original graphs were done with the resistor in place. Instantaneous dispersion is what I see on the live graph when I disable averaging. Both graphs are stable from about 250Hz and up; and below that frequency I can see substantial instantaneous swings both in power (up to 10dB) and phase (up to 240 degrees). The character of those swings might change the perceived spatial information and dynamics rendering(?). I can hear changes in the sound stage, it became more up-front. In an orchestral recording I did myself the instruments stick out more than I remember in the live feed. When I have time I will probably measure the amplifier loaded with a resistor instead of the speaker to see if there are any differences. With the HDT load it is only a 40-20000Hz (+-3dB) amplifier with a big phase distortion below 250Hz. |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Lon on 06/23/09 at 21:27:20 Okay, just a suggestion. . . but it may be a good thing to add news about the CCE Mod to the "What's New" page and the blog. . . . Probably wouldn't hurt to do the same about the Treble Dampening Circuit option for the amps, and the Torii Mark II sale. Also, if you're going to answer questions about the Torii Mark II sale in that thread. . . you may want to unlock it so that others can create posts? |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Young_SC on 07/08/09 at 05:25:14 I soldered in the caps last night and can confirm that I perceived an improvement. My reference cartridge (only a Denon 103 but it kills my Ortofon 2M Red) is being repaired, so I resorted to CD and the alternate cartridge. Since getting into vinyl, I don't listen to as much CD, but the mod has made that more pleasurable, at least in the 2 hour post upgrade listening session. Simon |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by SoundBound on 07/14/09 at 14:21:34 Steve recommends a polyester cap for this upgrade/mod, I have some russian Ft-3 Teflon 0.1uF caps left over, what about using the teflons? I would hazard to guess that it makes no difference, but if it really should be a polyester cap I would like to know. (the one drawback I can see about the FT-3s are their physical size). |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by veryoldcat on 07/15/09 at 03:57:12 I've used metallized polyprop caps in both my SE84CS and also my old refurbed ST70 (because that's what I had). I used a couple of old "wonder caps" in the SE84CS, and inexpensive xicons in the '70. The results of this mod, or tweak, is nothing short of astonishing, in my mind. My Select (SE84CS) sounds incredible, as if it had far more power and oomph than before. The whole musicality spectrum went through the roof compared to any other mod or tweek I've experienced. No other tube swapping or signal cap upgrades, et al, had anywhere near the benefit. The results with my old (but refurbed) Stereo 70 were similarly astounding, as the same mod is possible given EL34 tubes. I'd personally save the Rusky pio's for another project, and get a couple xicon .1uf's as they're only around a $1 apiece and are relatively small and easy to fit in. One disadvantage to the Rusky pio's and their large size is this; you'll need to be bending the leads around to situate them, and those thin brittle steel leads can break off as you massage them to fit in place. Karl ps- I'll add that the suppressor grid and cathode were already directly hard-wired on my old Stereo 70, and the difference between this and the "CCE" mod was nothing short of astonishing! |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by dank on 07/15/09 at 16:36:05 veryoldcat Are you saying that on your ST70 the suppressor grid was wired to the cathode, you removed that wire, put a 0.1 uf cap in its place, and noticed a substantial improvement in the sound? Just want to be sure I understand. Dan |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by veryoldcat on 07/15/09 at 18:17:33 Yes, Dan, and the improvement was very dramatic... Karl |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Hasafraker on 07/16/09 at 19:34:53 for us DIY'ers is this mod listed anywhere step by step whats needed to impliment? I originally thought it was just a cap between pins 3 and 6, today I read a post from Steve that some of the boards used in the zkit1 will need a trace cut and some won't. I don't want to ruin my amp, I don't like the idea of cutting traces on the board as I recall the board is of very good quality, and it's thick with good traces. Is there a way to tell by looking at our board and know if there is extra work to be done? I did a search of the forums and can't find any sort of walk through or list of changes required etc. If anybody with a zkit1 has done this could you please confirm steps needed to complete the mod. much appreciated! |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by veryoldcat on 07/16/09 at 21:54:27 If you can, look under the board and determine where pin 3 and pin 6 of the op tubes are, and then look to see if there is a trace connecting those pins. If there IS a trace connecting them, then that is the trace to be broken. It's as though there were a wire connecting pin 3 and pin 6 (but here the wire is replaced by the trace) and you wanted to replace that wire with this little .1uf capacitor. If there is NO trace connecting these pins, then you're free to just solder the cap between pin 3 and pin 6 with no other considerations. Hope this helps... Karl |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Hasafraker on 07/17/09 at 01:50:29 you're the man Karl thank you :) ok we might wanna think about moving this to it's own thread, but, I have board Rev 7 2009, the trace appears to be under the tube socket, and getting the board out of my chassis is not something I even want to think about let alone removing my sockets. I managed to backlight the board and it looks like the trace is a 90 angle from pin 6 to just below the silk screen 3 for pin 3 with a little leg to pin 3. Could I drill through the board right where the 3 is silk screened and cut the trace that way? This won't hurt anything else will it? I'm thinking Steve is going to have to answer this. |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by veryoldcat on 07/17/09 at 04:14:38 The drill idea would work fine, so long as you know what is behind the trace when the drill goes through. Since "u duh dude" dat done did the wiring and mounting of the board, you're the best man to know what's behind as that drill goes through ;) I'd probably use a dremel tool. Glad I could help, as I really have very little to offer, in the bigger picture! :-? Karl |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Alan H on 07/17/09 at 10:11:45 Hasafraker, I also have board rev7 2009, and my impression was that pin 6 was unconnected. However my board is installed and I do not have a photograph of the tube-holder side before the holders were installed. Will check this out today, because I now see that it is possible that my caps are shorted out by the leg of the trace under the tube holders. UPDATE - GOOD NEWS and BAD NEWS Well - dug out the multimeter, and it turns out that my CCE caps are indeed shorted out on the tube-side of the board. A pain now to try and cut that trace - but better sound quality to come in the end! Can somebody please publish a photograph of the tube side of the board showing how these traces run. Steve - could you please indicate which revision of the boards first incorporated the pins 3-6 traces. |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Hasafraker on 07/17/09 at 10:38:46 yeah I was thinking of a dremel tool with a very small bit to go through from the exposed side of my board. Alan, if you get it done before me let us know how it goes, I'm going to try to get mine done this weekend, I just need a pack of fine bits. I'll report back when I get mine complete. I'd still like to hear from Steve that there isn't something else in this area I'm going to cut through that I need to worry about. |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Alan H on 07/17/09 at 11:31:13 Sitting looking at the internals right now - got a Dremel not too far away, but I currently have no idea exactly how these traces run on the non-silk-screened side. Obviously, even if I could get the board out, tube holders cannot be removed, and there is little clearance in which to work. Will let you know what I do - having read this thread, it is not really an option to leave it without the mod!! UPDATE Using a dentist's mirror to redirect a strong light behind the board, I can see through the PCB and make out the traces. It runs from 6, across to 3, then out of the tube holder and across to join the other pin 3. Looks to me like the hole should be drilled roughly between the numbers 5 and 6 in order to cut just the 3-6 trace, but leaving pin 3 connected to the trace running out of the tube holder. Happy to mark out and drill on the basis of the light shining through the board - but I'm not doing ANYTHING till all this is confirmed. |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Hasafraker on 07/17/09 at 12:44:32 Agreed, Steve please could you confirm a "best practice" location to cut the trace, would be much appreciated. |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Alan H on 07/17/09 at 18:10:42 Well, my impatience again, I reread the stuff, then went ahead and did it. Attached photo shows the hole (same for other tube) - I had to extend each hole slightly towards the 4 before the trace was finally gone, and confirmed that the two pin 3s were still connected, but each 3 and 6 were broken. BTW the PCB is very easy to drill with a Dremel. I put very little pressure on because I was afraid I might lift the traces. You can see the tube holder through the hole (and yes I must clean up these solder joints - and one seems to have cracked!?). And it worked. And - first listen, it definitely sounds different! Will have to work through a few tracks before I can say how much - but at least I now have a before - after. |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Hasafraker on 07/17/09 at 18:51:52 cool, I salute you and your impatience! :D hehe. This is a good excuse to grab a dremmel however I think I actually have one, it looks very similar to a dremmel, we got it for trimming our dogs nails... it was expensive which is code for "they will be terrified of it!" so it is just waiting for me to appropriate it to my tool box hehe as long as the chuck will accept standard bits and such, it's a done deal. |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Alan H on 07/17/09 at 20:55:15 Go for it! Gave me a fright though - the sound after the mod was very detailed a bit "brittle" with a noticable restricted sounstage. Fortunately these effects settled after about 20 mins (what is it with ruddy capacitors?!?) ... and then ... Bach, Brahms, Capercaille, Deacon Blue, K D Lang, Cake, King Crimson, Tchaikovsky, Deep Purple, Massive Attack, Paul Simon, Calexico, Elvis Costello, Zero 7, ... etc etc Wow! "Gentlemen, this is no humbug!" |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Homey on 07/20/09 at 10:25:00 I unboxed my old SE34I-1 last week after having Steve do the Mod, & there is a very noticable improvement in clarity, with more transparency, also soundstage depth seems to extend back farther than before. sounding really good with an amperex 6dj8 in the preamp section, russian 6n1p drivers, & a quad of Ruby EL34BSTR 's in parallel. Going to change over to 2 tubes in triode & give Her a listen. Thanks Steve! |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by drumsgreg on 07/20/09 at 22:40:44 I don`t think I can afford to send mine back, but would love to do the mod myself for the Tori II, what pins do the caps need to go on and what size caps for the Tori II, thanks in advance for the help. Greg |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Walter on 07/21/09 at 07:20:24 I made the mod to my Torii Mk2 over the weekend -- didn't have the original packaging box, so thought it would take longer to pack it up and send it versus making the mod. Also I didn't want to have the amp damaged in shipment because of my packing. As per info posted by Zygi and Veryoldcat, I used Xicon .1uF 600V caps soldered between Pins 1 and 8 for the EL34. Used the 600V caps since some of the cap voltages in the MkII looked higher than 400V -- also because the Xicon caps are smaller they were easier to fit into the amp. I got my caps from Triode Electronics, see : http://store.triodestore.com/xicpol.html See posted pic for one side of the amp-- the 'orange' caps are the ones I added, the one in the top part of the pic shows the connections better since the connector to pin 8 is obscured in the lower cap. |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by drumsgreg on 07/21/09 at 20:14:22 Walter, thanks for the info and the link for the parts, all parts are on there way , should have this done very soon. Greg |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by jaco03 on 07/24/09 at 08:20:12 hi all since i have both the se84 and el34i, i modded both amps, starting with the integrated first. -- observed only slight changes for the better with the integrated. but the mod has lifted the little amp to another level altogether. -- it performs just as those who have done it say. anyone with the little se84 simply have to get it done. cheers |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by drumsgreg on 07/28/09 at 15:13:38 All I can say is the audio world is in big trouble, I did the mod this morning on the TORI MKII, what a difference some caps make, best amp on the market. It drives my Eminent Tech LFTIIIB`s Beautifully. |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by ko on 10/01/09 at 20:39:21 hello ,i did the modification yesterday ,i didnot have any polyester capsitators in the home ,so i used mkp 100nf 400volt and i hear defenitly a aprovement ,its a great xmass present ,thanx! i have one queistion what is the advantance of a polyester condensator?? above mkp or mkt or pio? greetings ko |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by veryoldcat on 10/18/09 at 19:22:09 Hi ko, If I read correctly you used metallized polyprop caps instead of polyester caps? I also used mp caps (xicons), because that's what I had. Theoretically the mp caps you used are at a higher level of quality than the polyesters. I believe an inexpensive polyester cap was suggested because it would be more than adequate (boutique caps are not required). Karl |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by lightmaster on 10/23/09 at 23:52:05 I realize I am late at this, I have been busy and did not check the forum for a while and when I get back I find this, what I see has simply become the "CCE Mod". I am so impressed with your work guys, you have taken a centennial technology and found something new in it, I am indeed impressed. From the descriptions it sounds very much like another unresolved mystery of the tube world, the odd "bloom" that tube amps experience after they have been on sometime. It really looks like we are still far away from totally understanding tubes :-) and I certainly cannot see the end of this technology anywhere or anytime soon. the D amps seemed to challenge the tube world, but clearly the force is still strong in tubeland :-) kudos to the Decware team! |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Steve Deckert on 10/25/09 at 20:41:19 There is presently a discussion going on at the DIY audio forums about the CCE (or Hazen) mod. I've written a part II to the paper talking more about how it works to perpetuate more discussion about it. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/153779-anyone-try-hazen-mod-g3-supressor-grid.html Part II of the paper is here: https://www.decware.com/newsite/paper146.html Thanks, Steve |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by rmt on 11/05/09 at 23:43:23 All I have to do is open up my Select and safely solder a 0.1 microfarad polyester 400 v or more capacitor between pins 3 and 6 of both outputs. Is that it? |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by veryoldcat on 11/06/09 at 04:14:53 That's all there is to it, rmt... Karl |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by rmt on 12/05/09 at 22:31:19 Thanks for the info Karl. Another question please. Pin 6 is empty on both sockets now, that's easy. Each pin 3 has a single wire coming off it. One is red, the other is white and they tie together at a large gold colored(resistor?) Those wires should remain undisturbed right? And no problems using a mylar capacitor, correct? Ok, never mind, I could not wait. Soldered the caps in, put it all back together and started it up. I had a fire extinguisher in hand and safety glasses on. So far very good. I hooked up an old dvd and my bookshelf speakers for a test. Spent a few minutes with Johnny A spinning - the amp sounds lusher, fuller. Changing the bias setting seems to have more of a difference now too. My little Boston HD7s are only five feet away from me and they have completely disappeared. I call that a success. I am quite pleased with the low quality gear I am testing it with. With the Zbox, Dec 685, and my nibblelin NFx I expect it will even get better. |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by lightmaster on 12/13/09 at 21:34:31 I guess it´s in my nature to always ask questions? so I hope you will bear with me. why is the value of the cap 0.1uf? and have you tried other values and with what results? ohh and while we are at it, why is the quality of the cap not important. I mean is that ever true? I guess at this stage only steve and the guru Hazen himself may have an answer? or not??? :-) |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by michkhol on 02/08/10 at 16:17:57 After several months of regular listening I still cannot hear any difference that is worth mentioning. |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Steve Deckert on 02/10/10 at 00:13:42 Hi Michkhol, I'm just wondering if you have it on a switch. Even with a switch it can be hard to catch because the effect takes several seconds to build up before it is noticed. You almost have to be listening with it on, and then turn it off to hear an immediate change. Steve |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Steve Deckert on 02/10/10 at 00:20:01 Quote:
The 0.1uf value was used to place the effect inside the audio band where it would have an effect on the upper bass on out to the treble region. Changing the value changes the time constant which will effect where in the frequency band it acts and also how images present themselves in the sound stage. Using a 0.01 for example would push the effect up so high in the frequency band that if anything were noticed it would only be in the upper treble. Steve |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by lightmaster on 03/13/10 at 10:49:56 thxs for the reply steve! that makes perfect sense. I just was not sure what the real function of the cap in that position was and if this logic still applied. Clearly it does. |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Steve Deckert on 10/22/10 at 17:47:45 The 1K 2W resistor between the plate (pin 3) and the suppressor grid (pin 1) must be removed before installing the 0.1uf 400v poly cap between pin 1 and the cathode (pin 8). -Steve |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Raduschka on 01/16/11 at 00:35:33 Hi, I don't see this mentioned anywhere: my zenkit 1 pcb came with traces and holes for the 0,1 uf caps to be soldered between pins 3 and 6 on both output tubes. Am I lucky or what???? |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Mark on 06/17/12 at 14:29:38 Bump/// Is this mod a regular feature of the current Zen Triode amps that ship with the SV83 output tubes?... It would seem like the prudent thing to do... Gotta admit, I'm pretty much out-of-the-loop here... Not all that technically proficient on tube technology... (m.) |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Chas on 09/23/12 at 20:17:55 Sounds like my coming out of suspended animation after 10 years is already paying off as I never heard of this cap mod! I'm sure I have some .1uf, 500V or 600V caps lying about -- probably russian teflons I bought years ago and I suspect they shouldn't hurt the sound vs poly. Just checked the pin-out on the EL34 and looks like the place for the cap is between pins 1 and 8 to cap-connect the cathode and suppressor grid. I read both white papers from 2009 -- interesting stuff. Can't say I understand what's going on yet. I'll plug in the mod today on my first gen modded Torii and see what it does. Easily reversible if not liked, but somehow I expect good things. Been so long since any mods done on my Torii the dust is getting thick, lol! :-) |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Chas on 09/28/12 at 21:06:38 Well, I did the Hazen mod on my old Gen 1 Blue Torii today using 0.1uf 400V metallized poly caps between pins 1 and 8. Let me say that I fully believe the benefits others are experiencing with their amps, but this old Torii design was a very unique one where the suppressor grid had always just been floating, not connected to anything in any way. Suffice it to say the mod did not work in my Blue Torii. But it may work great in later Toriis which are a very different design. Mine immediately sounded like feedback had been added, volume reduced, highs harsh, dynamics compressed, loud passages pushing amp into nasty distortion never heard previously, soundstage so narrow everyone sounds like they are on top of each other, immediacy gone, timbral accuracy gone, amp running super hot. Just shut it down after two hours before something gets cooked. At first, I wondered if the caps needed to burn in, but there's no way with all that distortion on loud passages. Oh well, the amp did sound awesome before the mod. Those caps are coming out for good. Funny how some things work and others don't. The early Torii is a singular design, rather unstable. I suspect this mod may have set up some kind of ultra high freq distortion or instability. This is highly unlikely to happen in the other amps which are more stable designs. Once again, I really do expect this is a great mod as described in most all other Zen amps -- but not my old blue Torii. It's wonderful without it and miserable with it. Fun to try. Just didn't pan out. |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Chas on 09/28/12 at 23:23:09 Quick follow up. Issac Stern is back in my living room, violining ~yeah! Took out the caps and the magic mojo is back on tap. Pretty hard to improve on this amp. Of course, without feedback, THD will get pretty high if pushed, but with 94db speakers, rarely doing much of that. OK, so on the Blue Torii (Gen 1) the Hazen mod was trouble whereas it is apparently super for most other Zens, likely including MKII and III Toriis. I think I partially cooked my new cryo'd EL34s trying the mod, but that's life. This amp is a temperamental beast, but I love it. It speaks audio truth like nothing else I've owned. Oh well. I still have a few tricks to try for a tiny gain here or there. Tomorrow, switching out my current fav Sanyo DD54RC TV damper rectifiers to try the Cree SiC Schottky rectifiers. Like I said, hard to make this amp better, but it's not hard to swap out SS rectifiers once you get to be a good solder slinger. :P But for tonight, I'll just enjoy the music! ;D |
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Title: Re: The Christmas comes early mod! Post by Chas on 09/30/12 at 02:23:55 If Blue Torii MK1 and any other amp owners who have solid state rectifiers want a cheap thrill, buy 4 of these http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?WT.z_header=search_go&lang=en&keywords=C3D10060A-ND&x=16&y=14&cur=USD and have them installed in place of whatever you're using. Just installed four today and they have nicely made a fine amp much finer. Everything is improved. Imaging, coherency, detail, listenability, high-end sweetness, realism, dynamics, timbral accuracy, naturalness, ability to focus easily on any instrument in an orchestra. These rectifiers only come in a T0-220 package form, but a little attention to detail and anyone who can hold a soldering iron can do this. These are Cree Silicon Carbide Schottky diodes. The 600V model chosen as it has better specs on reverse current leakage vs the 1200v model. Next, massive 10amp model chosen not because anywhere near 10 amps is needed, but because this is the one with the most internal capacitance at 480pF every time the rectifier goes to 0 volts -- like having a best snubber circuit built-in. These rectifiers made more difference than any other mod in my Blue Torii amp and that includes using big $ buck vintage gold pin input tubes and total cost including shipping less than $25. for all four of these diode rectifiers. I am now more sold than ever that best solid state rectification is darn fine in tube amps. And these rectifiers should stay great or maybe even break-in and sound slightly better with time. Tube rectifiers, if great, may sound as great, but are always getting worse from day one. I am convinced now that this Blue Torii is ready to be A-B'd against anything -- and likely win the contest. It is SO much better than my Select which was a very fine amp. This one has more detail and dynamic realism - nice! :P |
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