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SUPPORT FORUMS FOR DECWARE SPEAKER PLANS >> Wicked One Support Forum >> preparing to build SPL WO ?
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Message started by oxy on 08/31/06 at 07:38:17

Title: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by oxy on 08/31/06 at 07:38:17

Hi guys !
mainly i am going to build this box for SPL , dB Drag ....
I searched the forum without succes :(

Q is how to tune this box ?
2nd Q is what T/S parameters of sub must be, to work good this box ?

I am reading that DB DON made an SPL version, but cant find any design of that...
my subs are T4-10":
* Fs: 40 hz
* Qes: .397
* Qms: 1.975
* Qts: .330
* Vas: .35/9.79 liters
* Xmax (inches) .63
* SPL (dB): 87

Please, post your result if u did comp. with WO, and scores :P

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by oxy on 08/31/06 at 18:51:17

hm ... how to tune WO box at specific freq., lets say car peaks frequency ?

What is with that chambers ? how SPL depend on Volume of that chambers ?

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by djman37 on 09/01/06 at 23:32:13

oxy wrote on 08/31/06 at 18:51:17:

hm ... how to tune WO box at specific freq., lets say car peaks frequency ?

What is with that chambers ? how SPL depend on Volume of that chambers ?

take a close look at these pics: https://www.decware.com/whorn1.htm

and start with that. I'd just cut more slot to tune different. SOMEWHERE in my arsenal, I have the dbdon pics...I'll look.

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by oxy on 09/03/06 at 12:56:20

2 djman37 ; please , can u look and send me to mail ? i am trying to contact Don , for 1 month on different mails , without sucess :(

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by djman37 on 09/05/06 at 19:21:09

CRAP! i forgot to look. I'll write myself a note!

Don used to run Inhuman Audio I believe it was. He had his own forum too. I can look for what I still have tonight.

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by musgofasa on 09/05/06 at 20:24:15

Hi guys
I just talked to Don a few weeks back. His audio company is gone :(
He is actually in the hospital (might be out now) he had some cancer removed and has had a rough time so I wouldn't be looking for too much response from him yet.
Don ported the WO by cutting a slot into the opening of the horn. It was pretty loud, but it was very much so a one note wonder.
We played around with moving the speaker baffle to try and get more SPL too. Angling the baffle is definitely not the way to go for SPL.
Other than that, the enclosure doesn't do too much as far as tuning goes. The bigger the back chamber the lower the tuning. The box has a pretty good in car boost around 40hz which makes it sort of generic as most cars cabin gain is near that freq. I wouldn't want to try and tune it as is to a more specific freq. I do have a design that we never built though that you might be interested in. The rear chamber is bigger and the chamber is ported to provide more gain at the tuning freq of the port. I will post that pic as soon as I can find my design notes. I would love to see somebody take that on.
To give you some ideas, I ran a WO 8" in a 240sx and was getting 150-151 db out of it
We also ran a 10" WO in a 4 door blazer and got similar #s with that.
We tried to go up to a 12" version and got to the mid 150s with it, but never really pushed hard to see what the design was capable of. I actually got off track at that point and started competing with the slot vented enclosures and straight rear loaded horns. They got big and ugly too lol.
What kind of car, woofers, amp, etc are you looking at putting together? I am sure I can offer some ideas on this one.

Robert

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by oxy on 09/05/06 at 22:14:35

djman37 wrote on 09/05/06 at 19:21:09:

CRAP! i forgot to look. I'll write myself a note!

Don used to run Inhuman Audio I believe it was. He had his own forum too. I can look for what I still have tonight.

no problem man :P ,when u have time, look .. :P

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by oxy on 09/05/06 at 22:23:10

musgofasa wrote on 09/05/06 at 20:24:15:

Hi RObert ! ty for answer ! I didnt know that about Don :( i hope that everything is OK with him now ??

Regard box and car ;
car : VW POLO , car resonant freq. is 56 Hz
subs: 2 x Soundstream Tarantula T4-10
Amp: GroundZero 2.3000D

this season i comp at StreetA class, but i wonna try this box for SuperStreet 1-2 NW ....

thx !

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by musgofasa on 09/05/06 at 22:25:50

Oh I did find the post Don put up on TermPro about his condition. This would probably help explain where he has gone.

http://audioforum.termpro.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=015521;p=0

He told me that his suppliers were wanting him to buy more stuff than he could handle so it just got to be too much and he stopped building the inhumans. He did have someone move the forum though to www.teamspl.it

There are a lot of SPL guys on both of those forums that have some good game now. The WO certainly isn't used enough to get many answers from those guys (More xp with it right here) but if SPL is what you are after, those are some good places to start. There are a lot of guys on there I used to compete with.

Keep us informed
Robert

Oh here is a pic of the one that got away lol

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by djman37 on 09/06/06 at 14:32:08

interesting, but not what I have, so there's TWO!

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by jj420 on 09/07/06 at 16:00:58

Has anyone thought of just building a second lid onto a stock WO, built up about 2 inches higher, then porting the rear chambers into the space between the first and second lids? With only one side open this would make for a very large, low tuned slot port. It certainly wouldn't be as loud as the exponential port below it, however, it would have a very low tuning and may improve the overall sound of the enclosure...

Oh if I only had a woodshop, I would try it myself...

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by musgofasa on 09/07/06 at 17:13:33

I like this idea
I think you could even open the back side of the port with a small sized vent into the cavity and adjust the size of it to change the tuning?
This might be more creative than even I want to get started on lol, but it would be interesting to say the least.
The WO as is seems to have a pretty good boost around 45 hz (maybe a little lower?) which would indicate that the horn is unloading prematurely and acting closer to a standard 4th order so by porting the rear side of the driver with a tuned port, I would assume you would gain efficiency like a 6th order does, which means louder and more tuneable.
So if we make the bottom side a very long port, I wonder if it would smooth out the overall response? Might make it sound better in a HT situation?
Of course for str8 SPL I think that we would want the enclosure to be more efficient and house a higher power driver. The only problem I have run into with this is that the WO is fairly flimsy in regards to SPL because of the removable lid. It holds well, but it is a different type of constraint than the conventional vented chambers most guys are using. This is the reason we went to a bigger "ported" chamber and started making the ports expand like a horn mouth. This took away the necessity to tune the port as it unloaded at the resonant frequency on it's own. Of course we are talking about a wall and big subs in a small car lol.
I am still interested to see if the WO can be made to do more, although Don and I had this conversation for months, neither of us ever built more of them. I think it just wasn't financially viable when we were using the bigger stuff to compete.
Anyone feel like some sawdust? Have saw will travel! Heck at this point, I will come to someone's house and build it for them if they have the tools! (Oh and the materials would help lol)
Personally, I like throwing the ideas around as much as building, but it just isn't as satisfying as powering it up and listening.

Go Loud or go home! :D
Robert

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by Lee in Arkansas on 09/07/06 at 17:48:31

I'd love to experiment with a WO, but I only have a crappy(really) circular saw, no materials, and no place to do it on my schedule. I have a crappy schedule too!!

What about wrapping the WO's horn back over itself making it longer and larger, to somewhat resemble an imperial? What effect would that have on output? Assume space isn't an issue.

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by musgofasa on 09/07/06 at 20:34:08

This would be testing my knowledge of horns methinks :-* :)
Just to oversimplify things let me ask a question.
Doesn't the expansion of a horn basically release the sound wave into open air at a point where the frequency's size is equal to the mouth area? Or at least in this instance 1/4 wavelength of the frequency?
If this is the case, then the longer the horn gets, the more control over the wavefront it would have therefore providing the speaker with a cushion to load against and reinforce the wave. At least that is how I see the expansion helping to make the horn more efficient than a typical box.
If anyone has a simpler explanation, that is what I want. i have read a bunch of books on the subject and had several conversations with Mr. Bruce Edgar about it, but the complications are all mathematics and little theory really.
That being said, I believe that the effect of a longer horn is a more level and smoother sounding response, but the only output gain being from the improved power handling and limited excursion created by the pressure back against the woofer at a given frequency.
Now I am getting too technical to be practical though. Any thoughts? To get more SPL basically you have to increase the power, increase the cone area, increase the excursion, or increase the efficiency of the entire system (of course any combination of the above multiplies). So, in theory this means that the most SPL producing set up would be a chamber that has an open horn on either side of the driver, but there is no way to model it that I know of. Could one say that a horn on both sides would double the output? Of course wouldn't the 2 horns be 180 degrees out of phase unless they were different lengths with different expansion ratios.
I had this conversation with Mr. Edgar and he laughed at the complexity of it at the time saying it was more trouble to do on paper than in practice and I should build it and let him know how it turned out lol.
Ahh to have my shop back. On the good side, my best friend has a saw and a shop and I have some other tools. I just need a brad nailer and a good compressor and I am on my way again.
The WO is a bass enclosure so working with more horns and more size is probably not going to affect it as much as changing the chamber size, power handling, and excursion of the drivers. Who wants to be the first to build one of these monsters we have described? Personally I am up for the port out the bottom idea with the opening on the same side as the mouth. I might build that with a really, really low tuning frq just to see if it sounds good for a TV stand in my HT. Anybody know of a 10" with a really low Fs? (Like below 20hz)
Ok enough books for today. I am getting carried away lol.

Went loud, went home! :'(
Robert

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by jj420 on 09/07/06 at 20:48:24

A good 10" with an Fs below 20hz can be found at the peerless section of parts express, its some pricey though...

The WO isnt really a horn, more like either a resonator or exponential port, so modeling it as a horn is optimistic at best, ridiculous is more likely. I am NOT saying this is not a good enclosure, but it is very difficult to model something like this.

build another WO, match holes in the bottom of it to holes in the top of existing WO and have the drivers mounted there with the mouths opening opposite one another. Put this in the middle of a shorter wall with the openings faced into opposing corners and you start to get close to a horn response.

just another miasmic thought
JJ

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by musgofasa on 09/07/06 at 22:00:50

Speaking of which?
Has anyone measured the length of the horn section of a WO?
Just wondering what the length equates to at quarter of one wavelength?
Plus this would be modeled as a front loaded and I don't really know that much about front loaded horns.
I think the WO really acts more like a typical 4th order BP than any horn just because it is so short and abrupt, but it does seem to have a little better roll off from tune than a typical BP enclosure with the right woofers in it.
Now I want a drawing of the design you have in mind there JJ420 I am interested lol.
Whose cooking up something to build next? :-* :-* ???

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by jj420 on 09/07/06 at 23:53:36

OK, well, I dont do paint, so just envision a WO, but instead of the baffles for the drivers, leave that big area empty. Now put the Lid on, and cut 2 10" holes in it over that large section for the drivers, set aside. Build a second WO with NO lid, flip it over, then rotate 180 degrees and place over first WO. Laminate the sides together however you like. The chambers that used to contain driver/baffle are now compression chambers that create a lowpass filter in the system as well as an opportunity for more bracing. Since the output from the cones is summed but 180 degrees out of phase with thier own backwaves it would be necessary to keep those as far apart as possible, hence an opening on two opposing sides of the box.

This alignment would not be suitable for a standing application, but laid over it would also make a very nice TV stand with a decent height (to make it over the coffee table)

Come to think on it, this would probably work even better with the WO32, since it has a longer horn section and currently no compression chamber to speak of.

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by Lee in Arkansas on 09/08/06 at 05:25:21

you mean for the wo32 double-thingy your talking about, stretch the horn throat all the way back to where it's almost a point, fed by the compression chambers instead of being a direct front loaded horn? Basically, keep it 6th order, but stretch the throat farther down the side wall. Would probably want to put some type of bracing in there; that a pretty good sized piece of material there for the first section of the horn.

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by djman37 on 09/08/06 at 22:02:59

here's the thread I got my picture from.
http://p080.ezboard.com/fcaraudioforum87927frm46.showMessageRange?topicID=531.topic&start=1&stop=20

i HAVE the missing pic at home.

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by musgofasa on 09/09/06 at 02:13:51

OMG This makes me feel old!
That post is over three years old and Don is talking about the fact that the tests he and I did were "3 years ago". That means it has been 6 years since we messed with that design seriously! I had forgotten all about the "street" and "WR" spl classes lol!
If I remember correctly Don's test vehicle at the time was a van and mine was a Blazer. We tried cutting a whole bunch of slots in the box in different locations to see what would happen. We also expanded the throat opening anywhere from 3/4 inch to 3 or maybe 4 inches. The best we could get in the large vehicles was his 12" box with a slot cut right at the mouth opening if I am remembering right and this picture shows it exactly as it was built.

Now to the double WO box!
I love the sound of this simply because it should (In theory lol) double the efficiency of the driver by coupling twice as well. If we use the WO32 design and extend the horn length to make the taper a little more shallow, we could possibly get an 8' horn length? I think that would be right with the dimensions closer to the WO's 36" x 36". Then we would have room to adjust the compression chamber in both sides to be the same. The only thing is, the horns would be 180 degrees out of phase? I am thinking this would act like a TL enclosure perrsonally, but I am not sure since the expansion rate would be so much closer to ideal on both the front and back waves.
Which engineer in this group wants to take a stab at modeling a dual horn? Or would this be a quasi horn since we would in effect be loading two drivers into 4 throats that would load into two mouths?
Bleck! What a mess! I wonder how it would sound? I also wonder how to deal with the phasing? Is it possible that since the originatio of the wave would be out of phase and the horn mouth would be exactly 180 degrees that the output would sum slightly behind the timing? Seems like trying to time a piston engine at that point?
Let's build one! I am in!
SOmebody supply woofers and wood and I will put it together this weekend, otherwise I will build it as soon as funding permits I think. (Hey I built enough of these things, I should be able to do it in my sleep!)

Did I start this madness?

Robert

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by Lee in Arkansas on 09/10/06 at 05:18:56

I hate you guys.....you make me think and want too much.

I wish I could model the idea, but I can't even model the original WO.

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by gexter on 09/10/06 at 05:41:45

keep thinking and trim your wanter!
A nicely trimmed wanter can be a good thing, but to often they get bushy and overgrown and take over the thinking.

Man this is one crazy night for me, but a whole lot of fun.
this is what happens when the cabin boy is left on the ship alone.

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by musgofasa on 09/10/06 at 14:27:02

LOL

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
:-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by gexter on 09/10/06 at 16:33:57

LOL
thanks Robert! Last night was a creative night, not all that usefull but creative. :-/

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by djman37 on 09/19/06 at 03:06:43

BETTER LATE THAN NEVER: THE DBDON WO MOD.

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by musgofasa on 09/22/06 at 15:13:51

Hey!
I remember seeing that. Did Don ever build that one?
I can't remember. I see he is active over on the Termpro site again. I will check up with him tonight to see how his surgery went and everything. Looks like he is still kicking!
Might have to dredge up some memories from him, lol.
Now, is that supposed to be a 4 woofer set up or was that just the drawing for doing it with either set of drivers?
Seems like I remember one with the peice on the front. I can't remember what we were doing when he started that though. Might have been chambering that front wave pressure to adjust the frequency, but I am fuzzy now about why we started making that mod. Blech!
I hate getting old!

Robert

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by djman37 on 09/22/06 at 20:01:07

i can't tell either. there's a lot going on in the drawing. the front piece has me confused as well. The lower right chamber isn't open either, so it looks like it might've been a rough.

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by oxy on 09/22/06 at 20:50:46

LOL oh, yes it is confusing :S i didnt noticed lower right chamber... and WTF ?? why is it closed at the front...hm ... ??? ??? ???

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by musgofasa on 09/22/06 at 23:01:27

I am trying to remember what it was, but I think I remember Don or one of his customers or buddies having a need to extend the sound into a cabin or through a window or under a seat or something like that.
It might have been that simple. Could just be trying to direct output into a listening area for greater output.
The more I look at it, the more I am inclined to think it was just a rough and it is the same design for either pair of drivers. I know Don never would've put two different size speakers in the same box.
I doubt I will bring it back up though as the WO has it's limits. ALthough seeing that ranger flex makes one wonder how far out there those limits might be lol.
Now that I am getting back into the swing of hammering out numbers, I might have to go back and look at the whole "rubber port" idea and see how it can be manipulated some more. We recently did an expanding port design for a civic that really gets off. Might have to look at my design a little more closely and see if I stumbled on something. Maybe I can get a pic of it to post too.
I will let you guys know what it hits in the show he is going to tomorrow. I think it is getting close to 150 with a single (did I say CHEAP 8) ) sub.

Catch you guys later!

Robert

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by Adrian D. on 10/01/06 at 06:13:05

looks like a ported wo to me...

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by colinreynolds on 10/08/06 at 07:49:49

Woah! What fun!

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by mrezstreet on 10/17/06 at 16:14:31

ok i think im ganna make the 18" WO.....now i have to think about porting the back chamber ???...why can i just let good enuff b just that....... :-/ *light comes on* i am a bass freak....thats why :D

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by dbjunkies on 10/17/06 at 21:35:52

what determines the tuning frequency in doing that? would it be the size of the cutout? just thinking out loud again.... :-* :-*

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by musgofasa on 10/17/06 at 23:26:26

This has come up a million times. The WO is a 4th order bandpass with what is similar to a multi port front side.
If you wanted to model it, my best guess would be to model it as a 6th order and find software that lets you put multiple ports of different sizes in the front chamber and then add a port to the rear chamber. I tried several times, but could not get anything reliabole from the computer model. The best we did was experiment with a hole in the mouth of the horn and adjusting it's size. If you leave it the length of the peice of wood (3/4") the size of the hole will determine the tuning frequency, but beware the box becomes very one note oriented.
I have not tried extending the port to make it an actual tuning element, but I think it would have some effect. If it could be tuned close to the same as the mouth of the front port is at the point where it exits, the box should see a very large rise in output at that frequency.
There is a lot of math that can be thrown at this, but the only way to do it is to build first, listen second and measure third.

Shoot first, ask questions later. That's what I always say lol.

Good luck if you embark on this road. I think I posted pics of the ported WO design I have recently either here or in another WO thread. Check that out too.

Robert

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by dbjunkies on 10/17/06 at 23:46:27

i've been reading alot of these post and am currently building my first WO, to plan-also looking at the option for SPL competition--ie one note wonder--I'd like to test the idea of having the section removable, for competition sake, and back to the original design for daily listening--anybody played around with this and had any luck?? ??? ??? we thought of just attaching aeroports to the sealed chamber and somehow sealing them up for listening - that way we could play a little with the length and not have to tear the box apart everytime...

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by Adrian D. on 10/18/06 at 12:24:42

the spl idea is catching me. over here, street a is dominated by a guy who runs 2 dd 10's and a dd z1 hitting something like 142.x beating him with a bit less power is my objective.
so my guess is that a ported wo would be fun to try.
an imperial is on next summer's 'to do list', so the wo will have to wait a little.

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by dbjunkies on 10/18/06 at 14:40:40

is that db drag? - what subs/amps are you thinking of using?

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by oxy on 10/18/06 at 14:42:39

Adrian D. wrote on 10/18/06 at 12:24:42:

lol, 142 ?? in truck or ? :D thats nothing for z1 and 2 x 10" ....

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by Adrian D. on 10/18/06 at 16:19:39

db drag, new tl, skoda hachback.
speakers/amps undecided :-[. looking for some amp in the something in the 1kw range... at least i'm decided on the box and the car (a volvo 340)
don't laugh, it was the 4th dbdrag edition ever, so there's more to come. but i laughed at 4 15's walled in a mini.
back on topic :
cutting a 4" hole in the sealed chamber (pointed inside the mouth) and adding a tube from the outside could give some ability to tune the beast.
seems to me like it would be best to have all the gear, a tl, lots of time and just experiment with diffrent port locations and port lengths.

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by dbjunkies on 10/18/06 at 16:59:15

as soon as we finish the WO to plan, we'll test and get a baseline (or should it be bassline?) then we will play with different aeroports, starting small and short - it may be a little while before I can post results, as we are starting remote start season here! :'( :'(

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by J_Rock on 10/18/06 at 18:34:24

oxy wrote on 10/18/06 at 14:42:39:

lol, 142 ?? in truck or ? :D thats nothing for z1 and 2 x 10" ....

Why is this here? and why is it funny? If the mic is a new termlab that is pretty much the max those inefficient subs will do...

I am currently planing on flipping my WO over to add soem ports to the bottom- then seal them up for daily driving.

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by dbjunkies on 10/18/06 at 20:59:31

are you going to port out the sealed chamber at a 90? Have to let us know how it does....

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by J_Rock on 10/19/06 at 02:03:26

I am going to port it out the bottom- the other side and the horn are covered in vinyl, the bottom is not though.

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by oxy on 10/19/06 at 06:08:04

J_Rock wrote on 10/18/06 at 18:34:24:

Why is this here? and why is it funny? If the mic is a new termlab that is pretty much the max those inefficient subs will do...

because, with Z1 and 2x10" DD subs in Skoda hachback, i guess it is Fabia, it must go around 150 dB ... my friend with 2x 150W subs and 400W amp , in seald enclosure doing that score (142 dB ) ,in closed trunk car @ peak 49Hz .......

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by Adrian D. on 10/19/06 at 11:31:11

it was an octavia (the new octavia is a hatchback). so it's a bit bigger than the fabia.

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by oxy on 06/17/07 at 12:30:45

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by djman37 on 06/18/07 at 21:04:25

Adrian D. wrote on 10/01/06 at 06:13:05:

looks like a ported wo to me...

WOW.

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by aznboi3644 on 06/18/07 at 23:10:08

J_Rock wrote on 10/18/06 at 18:34:24:

Actually Rich from Realm of Excursion hit 149.5db on the new termlab with two DD 10s

DD subs are pretty potent in the correct enclosure

Title: Re: preparing to build SPL WO ?
Post by ST33M on 06/20/07 at 08:49:06

How would you go about porting the sealed chamber to peak at a certain frequency ? I have no program that will simulate a 6th order and did try to get winisd, but it doesn't work on vista. GRRR The program I do use it only calcs for 4th order. Which doesn't help to much.

Could someone help me with a port size and depth for a peak tune of 60hz ? I am seriously thinking about building one of these and would like to try it in a trunk car for spl. Right now I use a 4th order and do fairly well with what I have, but need more to be competative.

Thank you