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https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl AUDIO FORUMS >> General Discussion and Support >> Passive Preamp Discussion https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1753796269 Message started by JHC on 07/29/25 at 14:37:49 |
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Title: Passive Preamp Discussion Post by JHC on 07/29/25 at 14:37:49 First off, I just want to say thanks to everyone who contributes to these fora, it has been extremely helpful as part of the learning process and really makes Decware special. I did a search for "passive preamp" and didn't come up with much, but it seems like there must be some people using them (only passing (passive!) references to STL, Khozmo, Icon 4, and Lightspeed). I am in the unfortunate position of having my preamp completely meltdown and wanting something that can be put in place while I wait for my slot on the amp build (likely 3 years). I have heard good thinks about the Lightspeed Attenuator and the various Khozmos, and they seem like good options for now, and potentially for keeps. I also have a ZROCK3 coming relatively soon and thought that might work, or maybe sub it out for a ZSTAGE (or maybe use both?). From what I can tell the Lightspeed will work with my phono stage and SE84UFO and at a pretty modest price, that is what I am leaning towards. Not sure how it might integrate with a ZROCK. I do vinyl exclusively and the phono and amp are tubes, so I like the idea of having something passive that can cut out any coloration from another device, plus it take the bottomless expense of tube rolling out of the question. Thanks for your time. |
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Title: Re: Passive Preamp Discussion Post by Tony on 07/29/25 at 15:45:36 JHC, it sounds like you have a future preamp on order, so in the meantime, are you familiar with Pine Tree Audio? https://sites.google.com/view/pine-tree-audio/home A couple of years ago, I was exploring passive preamps and had an excellent exchange with the main guy there and found him to be very knowledgeable. Ultimately, I went in a different direction, but from other purchases with them, I found their prices to be reasonable and their quality to be excellent. |
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Title: Re: Passive Preamp Discussion Post by CAJames on 07/29/25 at 15:47:14 Your STL preamp melted down? Dang, that is certainly a bummer. I guess for you the big question is does your phono stage have enough gain that you don't need any more from the pre? For me personally what you call, quite rightly, "coloration from another device, plus the bottomless expense of tube rolling" is a little bit of secret sauce that I've always wanted in my system. I can't imagine life without a tube preamp, but of course that is JMO/FWIW/YMMV and all that. |
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Title: Re: Passive Preamp Discussion Post by JHC on 07/29/25 at 15:56:05 Thanks Tony, I haven't heard of Pine Tree Audio, but I will add them to the list and check them out. I actually don't have a pre on order, I have a Sarah, but I am more and more convinced that I want to switch that to SE84UFO25 monoblocs—inspired partly by CAJames—and add a CSP325. And yes, CAJames, my STL melted down, it is a longer story that I might share, but I am working it out with Al. For years I went without a preamp, but once I got one, it makes it hard to go without. Thus the conundrum. My comment about coloration was really about where to adjust. Without tubes in the pre, I could focus on rolling the amp and phono to dial in the sound. Maybe less is more? Especially if I keep my STR in the mix and add a ZROCK. I find the phono to Sarah minimal approach very appealing. But I also find the phono to pre to monobloc maximal approach appealing. |
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Title: Re: Passive Preamp Discussion Post by Tony on 07/29/25 at 16:38:11 JHC, as a semi-happy Decware 300B owner, I think that your consideration of the SE84UFO25 monoblocs makes a lot of sense. My amp's hum continues to improve, thank goodness. I am now searching for a used pair of 93 dB speakers that I think can remove more of the hum's edge. I'm hopeful that in the long run this will work out for me, but it has been challenging. |
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Title: Re: Passive Preamp Discussion Post by Lon on 07/29/25 at 17:53:51 For the first six months or so of my SEWE300B journey I used the CSP3 with all the mods I had. . . but in time I realized that the preamp was superfluous. Steve built a preamp into the "Sarah" and it's PERFECT for the amp in my opinion. The preamp before it was a bit too much of a good thing. So. . .I no longer use any preamp, just a ZBIT and the ZROCK3 and a Goldpoint XLR switchbox to feed the two sources to the ZBIT. I had a pair of SE84UFO3 Monoblocks which I loved with the CSP3. . . but the SEWE300B is a better amp for me and my system, I LOVE it. In your shoes I'd leave your order as is, that's just me. |
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Title: Re: Passive Preamp Discussion Post by Dominick on 07/29/25 at 20:30:20 Quote:
I run a pair of 25th Anniversary modified SE84C+ Zen amps as monoblocks with a CSP2+ and a ZRock2. I can tell you that I when I play vinyl with my ZP3 as the phonostage, I really enjoy the ZRock2 in the signal chain. There are a bunch of albums I own that are just flat..so it allows me adjust the ZRock2 to compensate for its recording with the added gain as a benefit. With the ZRock3…they removed the bypass switch. For me….I find it useful to see how good or bad a vinyl recording is by using the bypass switch. |
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Title: Re: Passive Preamp Discussion Post by Lon on 07/29/25 at 20:35:49 It's very easy to achieve "bypass" by just moving the knob back to the flat position on the ZROCK3. In general the ZROCK3 sounds "better" (in part I think because of the removal of that switch) (and is more adjustable) than the ZROCK2--I wouldn't put one of my ZROCK2 back in place of the ZROCK3! |
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Title: Re: Passive Preamp Discussion Post by Dominick on 07/29/25 at 21:06:44 Lon is 100% correct….the ZRock3 is all the way around a better unit than the ZRock2 when you compare them side by side. If I was in the OP shoes…I would not hesitate to buy the ZRock3. Lon… if I came across as putting down the ZRock3..that was not my intention. |
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Title: Re: Passive Preamp Discussion Post by Lon on 07/29/25 at 21:08:43 I didn't think that was your intention. I just wanted to point out that the lack of a "bypass" switch is actually an advantage, and doesn't disable the ability to "bypass" which can be accomplished with a simple knob adjustment. The elimination of a switch, the new cap implementation and the ability to adjust the gain have nudged the ZROCK3 ahead of the ZROCK2 in my systems, though one can reap many benefits from either. |
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Title: Re: Passive Preamp Discussion Post by Donnie on 07/30/25 at 02:49:31 I guess I will step in and take the contrarian side of this discussion. It has never made sense to have a preamp on a amplifier that didn't need it. The idea of adding more boxes and interconnects to my system always seemed counterproductive. It just sounds to me that you are inviting more things to go wrong. I thought that the Zen way was to make things as simple as it could be. But I will make the concession that I am a single source person, I've always used just a turntable, or a CD player or an DAC to feed my amp, and I've never had more than one of them at a time. More stuff, more complexity, equals more chances for bad stuff to happen. At least in my experience. |
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Title: Re: Passive Preamp Discussion Post by MM on 07/30/25 at 13:34:44 Glad to know I’m not the only odd ball that shares this sentiment, Donnie. I understand the need for gain riding on the front end, but that can be accomplished a number of ways. Extra and unnecessary tubes, switches, jacks, interconnects, and power cords… stress me out. Not zen at all. [smiley=peanuts21.gif] |
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Title: Re: Passive Preamp Discussion Post by Lon on 07/30/25 at 14:20:19 I honestly used to share that "Keep it Simple, Stupid" philosophy . . . but with the introduction of ZBIT and ZROCK2 by Steve and their implementation in my system made me totally reverse my position. The improvement these devices make really undeniably outweigh any detriments (if any) of more cables, connections etc. And. . . I firmly believe and have experience to back up my belief that a great preamp (and Decware only sells those) has a big benefit compared to just having a potentiometer in front of an amp. So I guess we all hear things differently, but I've actually lived with both "philosophies" and the use of preamps and Steve's "black boxes" have totally convinced me that more gain stages and control of gain from more than one component is beneficial. |
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Title: Re: Passive Preamp Discussion Post by JHC on 07/30/25 at 14:47:14 Thanks everyone for your thoughts. Interesting that no one here seems to use a passive pre, which I was assuming would sort of bridge the both keep it simple and maximize options camps. Lon, I have read many of your posts about the Zrock and they are were very influential in leading me to purchase one. I can't wait to get it and see what it's all about. Similarly, I reached out to Jesse at Pine Tree Audio and had a lot of great back and forths. He also suggested a tubed preamp, so there may be one in my near future... |
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Title: Re: Passive Preamp Discussion Post by Lon on 07/30/25 at 15:18:31 I will be interested in hearing your opinion of the ZROCK3. I think that any untreated room would benefit, and with different adjustments treated rooms would as well (but I have never been able to have a treated room, don't have direct experience there). In a way I have a passive preamp in place in the Goldpoint switch box with attenuator--which I got instead of a ZBIT2, a cheaper solution since I already had a set of additional matching interconnects to use. https://www.goldpt.com/sa2x.html It allows me to have XLR inputs from phono preamp and DAC selected into the ZBIT. It is very transparent and really "not there". . . and also another attenuation stage to play with (though for DAC use I have it full up and I diminish the output a bit for vinyl playback depending on the LP cut). My experience with this prompts me to recommend Goldpoint as a passive preamp to consider. |
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Title: Re: Passive Preamp Discussion Post by JD on 07/30/25 at 17:26:04 I use a passive preamp. Tortuga audio lv25 i think it's called (cost around 1100). The owner only sells kits now, not complete pre amps. I've used it for years with my LTA Ultralinear amp and Torii III. It replaced a csp2+ (wish i never sold it). Main reason I bought it was i wanted a remote control. It has done it's job well, so well I haven't used my LTA preamp yet, still in the box. JD |
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Title: Re: Passive Preamp Discussion Post by Kamran on 07/31/25 at 01:07:57 Multiple folks here use Passive Preamps—often listed in their signatures. I use one and love it. Cheers, Kamran |
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