Post by Dominick on 04/02/25 at 20:26:53
So after inspection there are no fuses under the hood. But I do see 2 small tubes wired up. Here are a few pics under the hood. Hopefully they are the cause.
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https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl AUDIO FORUMS >> General Discussion and Support >> Bizarre noise https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1743119289 Message started by Dominick on 03/28/25 at 00:48:09 |
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Title: Bizarre noise Post by Dominick on 03/28/25 at 00:48:09 I was playing my system this afternoon and heard the most bizarre noise that I’ve never encountered. I was playing my Torii MKIV with the following components attached….ZBIT, ZROCK2, CSP2+, Schiit Bifrost 2, and streaming Roon with my core coming a PC, and the Roon bridge coming from my Raspberri Pi 4B+. Everything was warmed up and playing music for at least 1/2 hour. Out of nowhere I heard this loud crackling electrical noise that was reminiscent of like an bug zapper. I didn’t observe any tubes flashing as I started to power everything down by first lowering the volume on the Torii and then the CSP. I then stopped the song in Roon that was playing. The noise was still playing through the speakers at this point. The Torii was shut down first, then the DAC, then finally the CSP2. First off…any insight as to what may have caused that? The tubes in the Torii are fairly new. The CSP tubes are a bit older. My inkling it that the Decware Rectifer in the CSP may be the culprit. Now the fun part is the troubleshooting? I could use some help on the process on where to start, and the sequence of a how to isolate the components the get to the bottom of the bug zapping sound. Thanks in advance. Dom |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by CAJames on 03/28/25 at 01:40:04 My first guess is it is a tube. My first guess is always a tube. Specifically a power tube in the Torii. I'd start by powering up just the Torii. If you hear something start swapping tubes, I'd start with the power tubes. If you don't hear anything for ~10 minutes than power up the CSP. If you hear something power off the CSP to determine if the noise is in the amp or the pre. Then start swapping tubes. If you still haven't heard anything then power everything else up and listen to music. Once is an anomaly, twice is a trend. If it happens again power off the CSP to see if you can isolate it to the Torii. Also look at the meters and see if one (or more) has a funny reading. There is a small but finite chance the issue is with your source, but that seems unlikely if you heard the noise with the volume all the way off. Keep us posted. |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by Dominick on 03/30/25 at 20:37:24 Thanks James! So after some testing yesterday, it seems as though the CSP is the problem. I put several rectifiers (1 new) and several new input and output tubes into the CSP, and I was getting a low constant hum coming through my headphones, even with the main gain on the CSP all the down. Today I’m going to bypass the CSP in the signal chain to see if the weird buzzing goes away. I plan to setup a phone conversation with Steve this week, and probably have the unit sent in for an evaluation. I’ll probably then do a warranty transfer on the unit with a new tube set. I’ll report back later after I do some more testing. Dom |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by CAJames on 03/30/25 at 21:46:05 You're very welcome Dom. Steve is way smarter than I am so I'll defer to him if there is anything else to test, but I sounds like the original loud noise is gone and that is good news. Hopefully it was just a fluke. And hopefully you can get the CSP fixed up quickly. |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by Dominick on 03/31/25 at 01:53:55 Well I jumped the gun….I started to isolate components and the noise came back. When I removed the CSP from the signal chain, I was still getting the noise. I then bypassed my Bifrost2 DAC and utilized my Audioquest Dragon Red DAC, and the noise was still present. I then isolated my ZROCK2 and removed it from the signal chain and so far everything is quiet. This component was the least susceptible since I refreshed that tube only two months ago. Edit: Well a funny thing happened as I was playing with the ZROCK2…. I powered it down to remove the tube and then I started hearing the noise again. Now it looks like the culprit may be a bad set of cables somewhere in the signal chain. That’s tomorrow’s project but at least I am making headway. |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by HockessinKid on 03/31/25 at 13:19:20 Dom, I hope you are able to chase down the culprit. There is nothing more frustrating than trying to find and resolve a system noise problem. I had a continuing problem with a buzzing noise in both speakers, which I finally determined was coming from my Zen Mystery amp last year. Tried a bunch of "remedies" including some of VeraFi products which reduced but did not eliminate problems which I thought might be AC induced. Finally a short length of pick up wire from a negative amp terminal to a chassis screw did the trick, properly grounding the amplifier. I hope this approach might help others trying to fix a Decware amplifier hum or buzz noise especially when you have a pair of very sensitive speakers. Noise, especially heard from your listening position, can really ruin the experience. HK |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by Coqui on 03/31/25 at 13:45:03 I am currently having a noise issue with my ToriiMK5, which I received in June of 2024. It has been dead quiet until a few weeks ago. One day, I forgot to follow the sequence of turning on the tube preamp first and then turn on the Torii. I heard a pop followed by the a loud high pitch sound. I immediately turned both the amp and the preamp off. Since then, I have had a persistent noise, mostly on the left channel. I systematically changed all the tubes from the right channel to the left and the noise persisted on the left channel. The noise is pretty loud and it sounds like a bathroom fan. The amplifier sounds great and the sound is less audible when I play music at moderate to loud levels. My next step is connect the amplifier to my second system, which has different speakers, different cables, and no preamplifier. I would appreciate any ideas or suggestions. Thanks! |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by CAJames on 03/31/25 at 15:26:08 Quote:
Have you convinced yourself the noise isn't coming from the Torii instead of something upstream? Like if you hear the noise and turn the volume on the Torii all the way down does the noise go away? What about tapping on the tubes, does that make it any better or worse? Lots of stuff is possible but what you describe still sounds more like tubes than a bad interconnect. |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by Dominick on 03/31/25 at 16:04:22 Quote:
Hmm…while I would like to say that I am almost certain that is not the Torii… at this point i’m not ruling anything out. The noise originated about a week ago when I was using my Zens…It was faint and nowhere near as loud. So I decided switch over to the Torrii. With the noise now getting louder, I would hypothesize that it would be a bad tube. But… I am getting the noise with the gain on all of the units turned down. I will try and tap on the tubes to see if that creates the noise. I think my approach at this point is to start off as basic as possible with the least amount of components in the signal chain. |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by CAJames on 03/31/25 at 16:45:38 Quote:
JMO but that means the noise is coming from the power amp, not anything upstream. |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by Dominick on 03/31/25 at 17:58:05 James….makes sense. I guess I was a bit throw off by it happening to the Zen’s as well. That would mean that that power tubes on both amps would be an issue. Definitely not out of the question. I think I kept my old KT66 tubes when I put the 77’s in….so I’m going to do that first. Let the fun begin for day two. |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by Dominick on 03/31/25 at 23:01:52 Well today has been one hell of adventure for the past few hours. Unbeknownst to me I was actually dealing with two problems. After isolating components and methodically coming up with possible component combinations, by adding and removing them from the signal chain, I then started to have no music playing. This really made the diagnosis that much more difficult. So here are the conclusions thus far that I know for sure. 1. The GL KT77’s were definitely causing the loud buzzing. (James…..you were on the money). Throwing in my used but still good KT66’s produced no buzzing. When I swapped the 77’s back in, they produced buzzing inside of a few minutes. 2. The CSP2+ is also faulting. When taken out of the signal chain..I had music. When put back into the signal chain….no music. So now I need to see if the tubes are causing it, or if it’s an internal issue. I’m going to try the CSP with headphones to see what happens. So now it’s time to grab some new tubes for the CSP to see if it’s a tube issue. Hey …at least I can listen to music in the interim. |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by Dominick on 04/01/25 at 01:16:38 Well sad to say…it looks like the CSP2 has some sort of internal issue going on. I replaced all the tubes and added the CSP back into the signal chain with no luck. Going to place a call into Decware tomorrow, obtain an RMA number, and send the unit back to Decware. I will set up a phone conversation with Steve to discuss if it’s worth making any upgrades or changes to the internals depending on what he finds. The unit already has the 25th Anniversay mods, so I’m hoping it’s something not cap related. This was Lon’s old unit whom I acquired it from Joe Lazenby. I never did the warranty transfer, so this may the perfect time to do it. Now the tough part….listening to music with out a preamp. Ughh!! |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by CAJames on 04/01/25 at 01:23:11 I guess that's what they call good news, bad news Dom. Hopefully Steve can get the CSP fixed up and sounding better than ever. |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by Dominick on 04/01/25 at 01:51:19 Very true James. The KT77’s are far superior in its characteristics to the KT66’s in my opinion. While I would love to buy a new quad of KT77’s, i need to hold off until I fix the CSP. I think it may be time to go back to the Zen's for a while. |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by hdrider on 04/01/25 at 01:56:40 Dom - I think you are on the correct path to recovery. I bought our CSP3 from a forum member and had him ship it to Decware to change the base from black to walnut and to do the warranty transfer. Time and money well spent in my opinion. CAJames, good detective work as always. At least you still have tunes in the meantime. Happy listening, Chris. |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by JBzen on 04/01/25 at 09:36:45 Sorry to hear Dom. Did you happen to look under the hood in the CSP2? Ruling out tubes, the ill sound description could be a sizzling cap going bad. |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by Dominick on 04/01/25 at 22:03:37 Quote:
John…as of now I didn’t inspect under the hood. I’m off tomorrow, so I think it will warrant an inspection. I wonder if there is a secondary fuse under the hood. All of the tubes light up and get to operating temperatures. I tried finding the manual for the CSP2, but all I was able to locate was the webpage back when the unit released through he waybackmachine archive website. Thanks Chris…I have a phone conversation setup with Steve for Thursday, so we see what he says. |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by Lon on 04/02/25 at 00:40:29 Should be a three panel fuse board under the chassis. One is a 5 amp fuse for the rectifier, then I think two 500 ma fuses, one for each channel. One of the smaller value amps could be going faulty. |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by Dominick on 04/02/25 at 01:40:13 Thanks Lon….I was actually going to shoot you a PM about that. I had a hunch that it may be a possibility. The unit has been rock solid since I’ve owned it. I’m hopeful I can rectify the issue myself without sending it back. Do you know if the 5 amp fuse is a slow blow? |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by Lon on 04/02/25 at 04:12:27 I think yes, a slow blow. My guess is it's not that 5 amp as when that goes the rectifier itself does not light up. |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by Dominick on 04/02/25 at 13:44:52 Ok… thanks Lon. I’ll keep you posted. Not having the CSP in the signal chain is a real bummer. |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by Dominick on 04/02/25 at 20:26:53 So after inspection there are no fuses under the hood. But I do see 2 small tubes wired up. Here are a few pics under the hood. Hopefully they are the cause.
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by Lon on 04/02/25 at 23:21:13 I couldn't remember if that had the fuse board inside or not. . . I doubt those little voltage regulation tubes are the cause of the hum. Steve would know. |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by Dominick on 04/03/25 at 04:00:09 Lon….as of now I am not getting any sound out of the CSP at all. The noise/hum was a bad KT77 tube in the Torii. |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by JBzen on 04/03/25 at 08:53:53 Good luck in your call with Steve today. Thanks for the pictures. All looks good from my point of view. When I had my white CSP2+ opened, it was noticed that the black contemporary base is walnut that has been painted. I plan on refinishing it to match the ZP3's walnut base. Also planing a 25th upgrade later this year by Steve. |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by Lon on 04/03/25 at 11:16:07 Dominick wrote on 04/03/25 at 04:00:09:
Sorry. . . I got confused. I hope that Steve and you can straighten it out without a trip to the mothership. |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by Dominick on 04/03/25 at 15:37:24 Quote:
No worries….it was confusing for me as well..dealing 2 separate issues at the same time. Yeah I’d rather not have to send it back if at all possible. Quote:
Thanks John… i’m sure the conversation will be enlightening. My white ZP3 has the Victorian base…so at some point I would like the ZP3 and the CSP to both match. The previous owner of the ZP3 had the walnut base, but he cant find it. So the decision I have to make is whether or not I make them both walnut bases or Victorian bases. The CSP base could use a bit of TLC… so I may make that a summer project to sand it down and re-stain it. Edit: as a last ditch effort I replaced my RCA’s with a alternate pair and even reversed the 3A fuse. Still nothing. |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by Sean on 04/03/25 at 20:55:04 Dom, sucks you're going through this. I have a black figured base for you, I doubt I'll use it again. I can either send it to you or drop it off with JBzen or meet you when you come out this way. I've been trying to get to John's house for a months or maybe a year. Kids are keeping me busy, remind me if I get brain fade and forget. I've got a CSP2+ and I don't think I have the tubes under the chassis. A month or two ago I had a scratchy pot so I was under there and reached out to Steve about a possible faulty cap. He said the cap was fine, but that someone had been under there and made changes. It's on my list to send it in for a refresh even though it sounds/performs great. I'm kicking myself for not taking more pics while I was under there, I'm going to pop the hood here shortly. Anyone happen to know if the under chassis tubes were on all CSP2 or CSP2+ or maybe they were optional? Tough to find historical data from that time period. |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by Sean on 04/03/25 at 21:32:28 Just checked...no tubes under the hood on my unit. |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by LiquidBlue on 04/03/25 at 22:10:09 Sean, the tubes inside are voltage regulator tubes and are an optional anniversary upgrade. |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by Sean on 04/03/25 at 22:42:21 Thanks! Makes the decision to send it in easier, just have to work up the courage to be without it for a few weeks. |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by Dominick on 04/04/25 at 02:48:04 Sean…it’s upsetting when the unit just abruptly stops working. If you don’t have any use for the black figured base, I would gladly take it off your hands, with some sort of compensation of course. So I had a nice conversation with Steve. He feels as though it could be a bad beeswax cap that just stopped working. Whether it’s a main cap or bypass cap, he won’t know until he gets it in house. He doesn’t think it’s one of the VR tubes that’s under the hood. So depending on what is actually faulty will determine how far I want to go with making changes/upgrades. I’ve also considered to do the warranty transfer, but I’m goofing to play it by ear. He said the turnaround is like 2-3 weeks. What I’m really going to miss is not being able to use my headphones. There are plenty of times on the weekends when I will fire up the CSP and listen to the TV through my Grado’s. I’ll keep everyone up to date as things progress. |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by JBzen on 04/04/25 at 11:49:46 Dom, One more thought(not to trump Steve - just to release the thought between ears ::)), maybe an issue with the headphone jack? You seem to use it regularly and I'll bet that Lon also did. I hardly ever use mine. Those jacks have metal that gets stressed every time a phone plug gets inserted which can lead to failure creating shorts or openings. |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by Dominick on 04/04/25 at 18:58:04 Quote:
🤦… Oh geez…..I didn’t even think of factoring that into the equation. I feel like an idiot….especially after pointing it out in my previous post on how much I use the headphones. It makes total sense. Huge thanks for the insight!! I just emailed Sarah and told her to add the jack inspection to the list and to replace any necessary hardware. The CSP just shipped out this morning, so I’m anxious to see what he finds. I wonder if the make a headphone jack saver…or if there is a way to have Steve add a cut switch to the unit, so that way I can leave the headphones always plugged into the unit. But I think I already know the answer….adding the cut switch will add a separate potential point of failure at the switch itself down the road, and probably at the expense of a loss of transparency. Damn…I hate when the cogs start turning!! |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by JBzen on 04/05/25 at 12:36:21 Your not alone Dom! This is something that haunts us all. Granted a bad jack is possible, Steve and time will tell. Those jacks are engineered for the stress factor but production can create early failure. I found in trouble shooting over the years a little nic in metal caused by assemble or machine processing error can shorten the life of an item. We see a lot of that today with recall notices. As far as insight goes, HA! I was stymied recently with the Otari after replacing caps in the motor control board. The new caps took care of excessive motor noise but developed a much worse power up condition that required the capstan to be manually spun with a twist of my thumb and index fingers. The problem progressed to the point it would not start at all. Well, being frustrated the problem was placed on hold but not for long. The thought of not being able to listen to tapes that were not auditioned pushed me to move the Otari on the bench. Long story short, hours were spent trying to find an intermittent problem on the main control board opening up the 24 volt supply voltage to the motor control board. Twisting and truning that board with all the cabling connectors, the 24v would come and go. Meanwhile there is a speed switch in about the center of the board that ended up being the culprit. The point? Hindsight is 20/20. If I would have cleaned all switches when first acquiring the half century old machine many more hours would have been saved giving more time listening for treasures in the bulk buy years ago. Hoping for a speedy turnaround for you. |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by Dominick on 04/05/25 at 23:50:51 Thanks John….your issue with the Otari makes my CSP a issue seem like peanuts by comparison. I’ve been wanting a Reel to Reel machine for a while. But my wife has put a hold on my audio spending for now while we tackle a backyard project. Fixing the CSP doesn’t count 😉. I enjoy pulling things apart to fix them…so I wish that I had more of the technical skills for testing purposes to help evaluate the problem. I would have no problem pulling the CSP apart if I have more of the technical knowledge base. |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by Dominick on 04/16/25 at 22:12:10 So a quick update on the CSP….STEVE went over the whole preamp and everything checked out completely fine.…even the headphone jack. All of the caps were fine as well as the VR tubes under the hood. After a brief discussion… It seems as though father Murphy may have played a part in the bizarre noise. It could be that the interconnects I was using when in a certain position could cause the noise issue or playing no music at all… or it could the output tubes. When STEVE put a new tube set in… everything was fine and worked perfectly. Hence I decided to purchased the warranty transfer with new Decware tubes. When I talked about the headphone jack… He did say that I would get a slight hum if I pushed the volume up to half way through my Grado’s because they are not really a good match for that preamp and have less the recommended sensitivity for an OTL headphone amp. When I’m listening to music through the headphones, I don’t push it that hard… But when I watch TV through the Headphones, I definitely have to push the volume higher and will get that slight hum. The only fix for this issue would be to swap out the stepped attenuator for the smooth action controls… But I don’t think it’s worth the cost or the effort. Watching a movie with a bit of hum is tolerable…just as long it’s not with music. I’ll keep everyone posted once I get the unit back up and running. |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by Lon on 04/16/25 at 23:30:07 Well. . . sort of good news I guess? Is there any way to adjust the output of your source for TV or movies? In my DVRs you can set the output to "Wide," "Normal" or "Narrow." "Narrow" gives a much louder output and the headphone gain needs to be lower, and that should lower the hum as well. |
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Title: Re: Bizarre noise Post by Dominick on 04/17/25 at 00:39:53 Lon…it’s good news for sure that there’s nothing wrong with the CSP. The source at from my TV is a 50 ft optical cable that goes through the walls and under my floor before it hits my DAC. I actually didn’t even think about trying to change the TV setting…I’ll definitely give that a try. I believe mine is currently set to normal. The only thing I’ve done is play with the settings on the ZBIT… which does help a bit..but only to a certain point. |
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