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https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl AUDIO FORUMS >> General Discussion and Support >> Which tubes to roll first? https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1736011843 Message started by Alan Arkin on 01/04/25 at 17:30:43 |
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Title: Which tubes to roll first? Post by Alan Arkin on 01/04/25 at 17:30:43 Hi there... I have a Rachael and a Aric Audio 6SN7 custom line stage. In the time I have had them (6-7 months), I have rolled all of the tubes in the Rachael. I haven't rolled any of the tubes in the Aric, and was planning to swap in some Sylvania "Bad Boy" 6SN7 NOS tubes from the 1940s. It is a bit of a mystery to me how different tubes affect the sound -- so I then thought, maybe I would hear more of a change if I rolled the EL34s in the Rachael. (I currently have Tung-Sol EL34B tubes). This led me to look at NOS Mullard big brown XF1s. So as between rolling the 6SN7s in the Aric or the EL34s in the Rachael, which do you think would effect the greatest sound change? Thanks! |
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Title: Re: Which tubes to roll first? Post by CAJames on 01/04/25 at 17:38:35 Quote:
Hard (impossible?) to say without knowing exactly which which tubes you are looking to use, also note that not all changes are for the better  . But I think in general different brands of the same power tube have less impact than preamp tubes but different types of power tubes can make a significant change. I also suggest you spend some time in the Racheal forum to check out other people's experience. |
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Title: Re: Which tubes to roll first? Post by Lon on 01/04/25 at 18:04:25 I've found rolling 6SN7 tubes to be quite impactful to the overall sound of a component and system, so my vote would be to try rolling a few 6SN7 FIRST. Sylvania can be good, clear and dynamic sound. My favorites are RCA gray glass--these have a more classic, "romantic" sound, which I tend to try to find in a system. |
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Title: Re: Which tubes to roll first? Post by will on 01/04/25 at 22:41:25 Personally I never loved those Tungsol EL34Bs... nice tubes but ultimately too concentrated and rigid for me. This may be different for you, everything effecting everything, and the Tungsols potentially being right for your sound, but my experience. I would probably play with both, knowing any tube change anywhere, as you have heard, will change the effects of the rest. Also how would you like to change your sound? With all the power tubes you can use in the Rachel, you could do a lot with just them, changing the vibes faster or slower... more or less complex, lucid, dense, spacious, dynamic, delicate...... Though as Lon said, you can likely do a lot with 6SN7s too, I suspect you will end up playing with both. And however you start, buying particular tubes that might contribute to changes you are after is really important to me, never cut and dried, but perhaps getting you closer to what you love. To help with that, we would need to know what you are using, and how you would like it to change...and even better, talking about what you have rejected and why. |
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Title: Re: Which tubes to roll first? Post by Alan Arkin on 01/05/25 at 15:19:13 Thanks for the insights! Here is what I currently have in the Rachael: Sophia Electric Aqua II 274B rectifier Voskhod Rocket 6N2P-EV / EB silver shield Tung-Sol EL34B Here is what I have in the Aric (these tubes came with the Aric, which I bought secondhand): Philco 5U4G rectfier (It looks like it has the numbers 35129 on it) RCA 626 6SN7 tubes RCA OD3 regulators What am I looking for in terms of sound? Hard to say exactly. Perhaps more definition and maybe tighter bass. I think the system is probably warm enough at this point. I did find the Sophia rectifier in the Rachael to be a nice change, and the Russian 6N2Ps definitely added some gain. |
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Title: Re: Which tubes to roll first? Post by will on 01/07/25 at 00:12:05 For more speed and definition that is also pretty spacious and lively, having a good detail in space relationship, Gold Lion KT77s might be a good bet for shifting your amp in the direction you want. It has been a long time ago, but they did something special in the SE34 I had... a nicely balanced tube.... tight bass with exceptional dynamic contrasts and complexity throughout with good space and fine detail. I recall them as punchy, expressive tubes that were relatively open and fresh. In my tuned up/fast Torii, they were a bit much for me, but in my SE34, the dynamics and space were really nice, and I think lots of folks have liked them in Toriis. Another thought would be exploring rectifiers in the Aric. Not sure how flexible it is, but 5U4GBs are pretty powerful and generally big and dense sounding across the spectrum. When the bass in the balance pushes too much, depending on room and all else, rather than getting stronger feeling, it can go too far into various degrees of muddle and masking, so feeling like less, when it is really more if the room and all else can't handle it. If this might be the case in your setup, changing to a milder, and/or faster rectifier could be worth exploring. I am guessing you have the 5U4G-ST (coke bottle) or 274B that came with your amp? All sound different, but STs generally have a little less pushed sound than 5U4GBs, with luck, subtly leaning things down and increasing definition. If the pre does not seem too dark/full overall, but needs to be faster/more defined, a GZ34 has a similar power feel to 5U4GBs, but could give a similar feel as the KT77s in your amp... more speed, dynamics, and definition with spaciousness and fine detail. Good NOS GZ34s are expensive though, and not sure if there are decent new ones. The last I tried was a Psvane with a brown base... seemingly based on some version of old Mullards or Philips GZ34s. It was OK here, but not great for me. I don't recall exactly why, the tube not being in long, but likely a little masked and slow, less nuances than nice NOS tubes. I wonder if Linlai is making a lower cost one... could be worth a look if this type seems worth trying with less risk than good NOS tubes. Alternately, if your sound with 5U4G-STs is still a little thick/full/warm, then rather than GZ34, GZ32s are family in characteristic sound qualities, but less powerful, so more open, faster and lucid. There are variants, like 5V4Gs, Brimar a pretty nice one that is not as nuanced and complex as many variants of Euro GZ32s, but also can still be found relatively inexpensively, and pretty nice for a variation of these inherently faster, more open and dynamic tube types. The American ones are touch and go, the RCA STs usually warmer/fuller, so maybe not your thing, and the fat bottle GEs, Sylvania, and others tend to quite clean... often too clean for me in my setup, but they can be gotten pretty cheaply, and if you want to test a quite open and revealing rectifier in your pre, I think the Sylvanias I have with a horseshoes top getters are pretty nice tubes. Other less pushed feeling, fastish and more open rectifiers are 5R4GYs and Type 80s with adapters, Globes in particular. The ST shaped type 80 tubes can be nice too, and perhaps more durable, but less nuanced and complex in general. I have enjoyed 5R4GYs and Type 80s with different tube setups, but it seems a number of folks had troubles with Type 80 globes with some of our Decware power supplies. I used them for a long time, and maybe I was lucky, also being pretty careful with choosing Ebay sellers, but I think only lost one over some years of using them a fair bit. I ended up finding the 80s a little too smooth in general, nicely so, but I wanted more complexity, and moved toward the RGN1064 (with adapters) and variants I have used predominantly for quite a few years now. As my stuff became faster with more easy-flow with power and signal, these resolving and less pushed tubes became just right for me... I might say sort of like a little less pushed and more resolving Euro GZ32s. These tubes are outside our 5V Spec, being 4V, but have a fairly high reservoir cap rating, and I have been using them for years here, only losing one that I can recall. I find 6SN7s so variable, I can't really advise there. In my 300B/845 amp I have tried a number of 6SN7s as inputs, and lately was preferring Raytheon short bottles with side getters, a quite neutral and revealing tube with a small touch of warmth. But lately, after opening up the sound elsewhere, I am preferring the still revealing and pretty fast, but a little more round/warm sounding, round bottle Psvane CV181 SEs with grey carbon spray... the ones that came with my amp. Anyway, a start for considerations maybe. |
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Title: Re: Which tubes to roll first? Post by Alan Arkin on 01/07/25 at 14:07:52 Will - Thanks for that. A lot to think about. I think I am going to try Gold Lion KT77s initially and see how that changes things, and possibly roll the 6SN7s next. Will keep you posted. Thanks! -- Alan |
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Title: Re: Which tubes to roll first? Post by Alan Arkin on 01/19/25 at 15:30:25 So I swapped out my EL34s for a pair of the Gold Lion KT77s. Have been burning them for about a week of heavy playing and like them. Jury is still out but they are definitely less warm with much more detail. I was planning on waiting until they were fully burned in, but instead I ordered a pair of NOS Sylvania VT231/6SN7GT from 1944. I couldn't wait to pop them into my Aric line stage, and my initial reaction is wow. Super quiet and added clarity and detail. I think this will be my combo of choice, at least for now. -- Alan |
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Title: Re: Which tubes to roll first? Post by Hearafter on 01/19/25 at 18:16:49 Alan, Excellent tube choices you made. So many tubes too many choices.🤪 In my tube experience I prefer that warmer full more real live analog sound….I had the GL KT77’s and they are great but I ended up selling them and just preferred my Mullard EL34 xf2’s from the ‘60’s more. Another favorite of mine are 807/5933 tubes with adapters. Mine are military Westinghouse JAN 807 and JAN Philips(Sylvania) 5933. For the 6SN7 family in my preamp my preferences are ‘50’s Meltz 6N8S solid plates, RCA VT231 ‘40-50’s grey glass, 6F8G’s with adapters- Raytheon Flat ladder plates and RCA grey glass. I did like several of the Sylvania styes and for a new stock tube the Linlai E-6SN7 sounded very good just a bit solid state like. Enjoy your tube travels. |
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Title: Re: Which tubes to roll first? Post by Kamran on 01/19/25 at 18:20:18 Love the GL KT77s. Give’em some time. The Sylvania VT231 is an excellent 6SN7. It was in my top 4 of the variants I tried including the RCA VT-231 Grey Glass, the Russian Melz 1578 and KenRad VT-231 Black Glass. The Sylvania was super detailed and transparent, the RCA was more lush and romantic, the Melz was an excellent all-rounder, and the KenRad was great for bass. Enjoy—you have a great combo! |
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Title: Re: Which tubes to roll first? Post by will on 01/19/25 at 18:21:51 Thanks for the update. I suspect that even with pretty heavy play the Gold Lions will continue to refine in all ways. For me heavy play is 6-8 hours a day, going on the 8 side for week, 56 hours. This is not near enough for most power tubes in my experience, though the more open and resolving ones (if not too much) do tend to sound better as they burn in and refine. With that many tubes to influence and interact with one another, the sonic adjustment possibilities shockingly abundant for better or worse, it is exciting you got to what sounds like pretty close to your goal with just two tube choices. It will be interesting to see how it unfolds with more time. |
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Title: Re: Which tubes to roll first? Post by Alan Arkin on 01/19/25 at 20:18:27 I had my eye on some Mullard EL34 XF2s but figured I would try the KT77s first. Will see how they all sound after some real burn in. These definitely won't be the last. I also am tempted to roll the rectifier in my Aric. |
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Title: Re: Which tubes to roll first? Post by GroovySauce on 01/19/25 at 22:59:06 GL KT77s were my goto tube in that family for years. I now have 480 hours on the Natural Sound 6CA7-T. I'm 90% sure this is my new favorite in both my DAC and amp. They have a bit more density than the GL KT77s and are smooth from top to bottom with bite when called for. |
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Title: Re: Which tubes to roll first? Post by will on 01/19/25 at 23:20:01 Sounds like you are in for some fun Alan! I think the trickiest part is that everything contributes to a matrix of variables that effect, and are effected by, all aspects of the sound of a given system/room...power, gear, feet, cables, tubes, and not least room... clearly these all make different tubes sound different, creating different preferences for different tubes. So just choosing well liked tubes without considering how their sound characteristics will fit in a known system/room can be useful, but also a crap shoot, and can lead to having hundreds of tubes over time (like me). Then there are interpretation and semantics. Like Hearafter associating "warmer full" with "more real live analog sound," and his 807s supporting this. From another angle, I used 807s in my Torii longer than any power tube... quite a few years, and I have a lot of them. I fell for them because they tend to be really good at fine detail in space. The ones I picked up over years were a range of the old beauties, but I preferred less dark, clearer versions, opening complex fine detail and space beautifully within my already warm leaning system. So I agree with the real sound 807s can give, but in my case, I did not prefer the denser Sylvania 5933 or warmer ST shapes that are less solid and dense than the 5933s I have, but balanced more toward bass, like Brimar, and even some of the early RCAs. Great tubes, and I could make the denser or darker ones work, but I found the more open sounding STs easier here, mixing nicely with my warmish setup and not being in the face in any notable ways.... So starting with a system/room that is leanish and preferring warmer tubes, or starting with one that is warmish and preferring more open and resolving tubes... it gets tricky to figure out without interpreting the specific tendencies of a tube and applying that to desired changes. Splitting hairs in ways, but tube sound is like that to me. My system/room is tuned to be unusually resolving and fast, while being musically sweet without being dark or slow. That comprises lots of balances across the spectrums of frequencies, resolution and time, and leaves a relatively narrow window that balances all these across the range. So going too dark/slowish or too open/fast/hard was too easy until I figured out how to modify things to resolve detail and space further as a means of avoiding hardness and making the beauty range more flexible. Still going too dark slows the bass into the lower mids too much, throwing off the speed and spectral balances....and going too clean and resolved leaves it all too dissected and lacking the sweetness of warmish body and weight. Even now, though much more latitude in the beauty range, having worked so long with all the balances of balances, the sound that takes me away across recordings (using gain tuning) is still within a relatively fine range but definitely more tolerant and awake. This is strong in mind for me as I have been working to integrate a new DAC as it burns in, the DAC notably effected by the many tube types and cap combinations it can use. Along with the 8 tube positions from my other gear, and all the DAC and pre stage settings, it is really clear that all tubes sound notably different here, and finding the deep beauty across most recordings is tricky with this highly influential and adjustable front end so far... getting there though, making the exploration exciting, but also complex and tiring sometimes! |
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