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AUDIO FORUMS >> General Discussion and Support >> Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
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Message started by filthnoise on 08/26/23 at 15:40:50

Title: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by filthnoise on 08/26/23 at 15:40:50

I've been researching various preamps to pair with a UFO amp, and assembling a shortlist that includes options all over the map, from passive volume control, to tube and solid state gain stages.

Being that this forum already contais a ton of information about Decware gear, I'm hoping to keep the focus on non-Decware preamps that are readily available. I'd like to keep the price below $5000 USD (used or new).

Here's my list so far:

LTA microZOTL
McIntosh c22
WooAudio WA22
Lab12 Pre 1
HoloAudio Serene
Pass Labs XP-12

Passive Attenuators:
Emia Autoformer (Slagle)
icOn4 Zen (Slagle)
Tortuga

I'd love to hear thoughts on this list from forum members, and if anyone feels there are other preamps I should be considering.

I realize the above list reveals I have no idea what I want in a preamp! I'm interested in hearing suggestions and feedback from those of you who've come to appreciate specific characteristics of a preamp, especially when paired with Decware gear.

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by CAJames on 08/26/23 at 16:51:49

Quote:

Posted by: filthnoise Posted on: Today at 07:40:50

I've been researching various preamps to pair with a UFO amp...
...WooAudio WA22

...Pass Labs XP-12

I've had a WA22 for over 3 years now and think it is fantastic, as both a headphone amp and a preamp. I used it briefly with Pass Labs Alephs, UFOs that I've since sold, my current 300B amp and plan on using it with UFO25s that I hope to receive in the next couple of months. And if you're into tube rolling it is quite a playground. In fact I would say tube rolling is essential because the stock tubes, while perfectly usable, don't do it justice. And you can adjust the sound pretty much any way you want, from almost solid state clarity to old fashion tube warmth to anywhere in between.

And while I haven't heard the XP-12 specifically I'm a big fan of Pass Labs in general. It is not a budget option by any means, but would be an excellent option for SS that would go very nicely with a Decware amp IMO.

The thing about both of those is they are balanced, which I (strongly) prefer but you will need a plan to deal with if you are using them with a UFO. One option would be a ZBit, or my choice is to get two amps and configure them as balanced mono blocs. You also wouldn't be getting your moneys worth if you weren't using them with a balanced source IMO.

I'm also a big of Denafrips DACs. I don't know very much about their pre-amps but if you are considering Holo, you ought to give them a look as well.

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by RonP on 08/26/23 at 17:09:45

Although I've not directly compared it with anything else, I've been pretty happy with my older generation BAT VK33 pre-amp. Not the 33SE.

I have my eye on a ModWright Pre-amp (eventually). Dan's great to deal with and I have a few pieces of his gear already.

It's probably worth a few minutes of your time to check the product lineups for both companies (BAT & Modwright). Worst case, you find something you don't like and you re-affirm your current shortlist.

GL!

Obviously there are a lot more brands and you can easily spiral down the rabbit hole of comparing options.

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by Tommy Freefall on 08/26/23 at 17:15:31

Might want to consider:

*Backert Labs
*ModWright

preamps as well.

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by filthnoise on 08/26/23 at 19:35:11

Great feedback, thank you!

Very interested in the Backert Labs Rhumba.

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by RonP on 08/26/23 at 23:11:57

Seems these are on clearance sale currently direct from mfg to make way for the new version.

"Rhumba 1.3 linestage tube preamplifier: now on clearance for $3,600 "

https://backertlabs.com/rhumba-1-3-tube-preamplifier/

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by Kamran on 08/27/23 at 00:22:31

I love my Autoformer based passive pre and would highly recommend trying that route. :)

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by GroovySauce on 08/27/23 at 00:24:44

Do yourself a favor and give the EMIA or ICON a go. Autoformer volume controls are mind blowing good!

Once I heard the EMIA copper remote autoformer in my system it was a no brainer. Everything across the board was better and it added a bit of X factor magic.

If Steve offered Dave Slagle's autoformers as an option for built in volume control peoples heads would melt. Friends and families will call for wellness checks because it's so good you don't want to leave the room.

I had my Torii made with no volume control with the EMIA autoformer, it's the best synergy I've ever experienced in 20+ years of putting together hifi systems.

Yes this reeks of hyperbole however, there are 4 things I will not mess with. Room treatment, Torii MKV, Snake River Audio Cables and of course the EMIA autoformer.

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by Kamran on 08/27/23 at 00:32:40

I owe GroovySauce a debt of gratitude for bringing the Autoformer volume control on my radar. It has had a profound impact to the sonic character of my rig. So much so, that it has led me to question the value of the ZR2 in my chain—but that’s a post for another day.

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by JOMAN on 08/27/23 at 10:26:26

GroovySauce and Kamran, have either of you compared the EMIA and icOn?

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by JBzen on 08/27/23 at 12:54:17

I second your thoughts Kamran. Groovy did put Slage's Autoformers on my list of upgrades. Never did like carbon/plastic pots but seemed to be the only reasonable option. Resistors rob power. Zrock adds noise. Have to put the autoformers on the short list. I invision replacing the CSP2 with the autofomers and ZSB.
John

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by GroovySauce on 08/27/23 at 13:27:24

I have not compared the Icon and EMIA. They both use Dave Slagles nickle autoformers. My guess is the difference in internal parts, wire, relays and layout are the sonic differences.

If you are handy with a soldering iron and the idea of DIY is an option. Dave sells just the autoformers. He even has options that have a switch soldered in already. If you're comfortable with the DIY You could have a world class preamp, that will go up against 6 figure preamps all day long.

If you do go the DIY route I would suggest spending the extra money and getting a pre wired one.
https://intactaudio.com/atten.html

Dave is a great guy!

I use the Speaker Level Autoformer Modules for the attenuation on my speakers. I replaced the L-pad with them and it was a massive improvement.

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by JOMAN on 08/27/23 at 14:21:13

Thanks GroovySauce. Looks like the EMIA Remote Copper will be added to the short list of what's next. Once my listening room is completed I'm getting the Chord Dave and the new Wathen DiPoles so I guess it's in for a penny in for a pound... 🤦‍♂️

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by pursuitofnow on 08/27/23 at 19:21:42

For what it's worth, this is a killer deal. https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1693103206

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by Kamran on 08/27/23 at 19:55:59

Thx Joman. I have compared some notes with GroovySauce and our collective sonic experiences are in alignment. I got a good deal for the entry level ic0n4 which might be discontinued temporarily but I didn’t need more than two input anyways (the pricier units use the same autoformers, but have more input options including balanced and single ended).

You can look up the reviews—-they are overwhelmingly positive. Initially, the founder wasn’t using Slagleformers but switched a couple of years back and hasn’t looked back. I believe he’s using a bespoke version of David’s autoformers so it may not be exactly the same as what is inside the EMIA. One cool feature that both units share is the ability to remotely change the volume by 1 db increments—I didn’t realize how useful this was going to be until I started using it and fine tuning the volume with the ZBIT and ZR2 in the chain. Pal is a great guy to deal with. Shipping from Manchester was actually faster then I expected too. Hope this is helpful.

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by JOMAN on 08/29/23 at 12:18:55

Thanks info Kamran. I'm definitely going to look into the icOn. Been on the site already.

Thanks for the link pursuit now.

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by Tommy Freefall on 08/29/23 at 19:48:16

Those various ic0n units have piqued my interest as well.
Extensive, detailed writings on these components over at 6moons.

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by charles hidalgo on 08/29/23 at 19:57:02

Why not try a Schiit Freya+..... It will let you audition passive, active/SS, and full tube modes? Its dirt cheap, and scratched my itch as of late. I had several much more expensive preamps the most costly approaching $7,500 I sold them all out of necessity and purchased the Schiit as a temporary pre. I have found in the last 6 months or more that I am in no hurry to replace it. There's a ztpre here FS now and if I had the money I would get it as I owned one years ago.

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by JOMAN on 08/30/23 at 02:42:57

Hey Charles,
I have a CSP3A that has a full complement of Cryotone tubes and has been processed. I'm happy with it. This discussion of EMIA and icOn has peaked my interest as I'm on a front end upgrade path. As I've added components and changed cables I ended selling my ZR2 as it was no longer needed. That came as a bit of a surprise.

I'd better add this now... Don't get me wrong, I still feel that the ZR2 is a great component, a definite asset and needed in certain circumstances. My circumstances changed in a way that it was no longer necessary.

So I want to make sure that I don't make a lateral move but one that continues to make meaningful significant improvements.

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by charles hidalgo on 08/30/23 at 05:39:57

Only your ears can and should determine what possibly is a lateral, backward, or forward progressive move. I do understand.

Good luck with the hunt.

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by Tony on 09/19/23 at 16:15:26

GS said on 8/27:

If you are handy with a soldering iron and the idea of DIY is an option. Dave sells just the autoformers. He even has options that have a switch soldered in already. If you're comfortable with the DIY You could have a world class preamp, that will go up against 6 figure preamps all day long.

OK, that leaves me out :) However, I contacted Pine Tree Audio, and they build a passive amp and can customize it to use Slagle autoformers (Elma 47 Position Autoformers), no remote. I have confidence in their work; they once built me a ZBit-like component that compares well to my Decware ZBit.

I have two questions for anyone who might know from working with a passive preamp: This device has two limitations: 1) 47 positions instead of 68 like the Icon Pro. 2) No remote.

Would either be a serious limitation?

Thanks

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by CAJames on 09/19/23 at 17:15:01

Quote:

Posted by: Tony Posted on: Today at 08:15:26

I have two questions for anyone who might know from working with a passive preamp: This device has two limitations: 1) 47 positions instead of 68 like the Icon Pro. 2) No remote.

Would either be a serious limitation?

The answers are "it depends."

47 positions is probably fine IMO, but it really depends on how they are distributed across the gain range, and how picky you are about volume. My Decware amps had 20 step attenuators, and that would have been almost enough for me if I didn't have a preamp. For many years I had an AR preamp with 100 steps (and remote control, more on that below) and that was overkill. But YMMV.

As for remote control, I gave it up a few years ago when I ditched the AR for a Woo Audio WA22. I'm old enough to remember life without remote controls (not counting my little brother), and while it took a little while to adjust I'm fine without it now. But again that is me, and my preamp is 1 1/2 steps from my listening seat and I often get up to change CDs anyway.

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by Kamran on 09/20/23 at 02:14:28

For reference, the following image will show the steps that are missing using 68 steps over a 75 db volume range for the icon:

I’m somewhat picky given my fine tuning with the ZBIT and ZR2 in the chain and it bothers me slightly that I can’t access -24. In other words, I would be very concerned about their distribution with 47 steps.

No remote is a complete showstopper for me. That was part of the allure of the icon. I exclusively stream using my phone or tablet and need the remote to change volume and or mute in a given session from the listening position.

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by GroovySauce on 09/20/23 at 13:53:12

I have the EMIA Remote Autoformer 61 position is -54 dB to +7 dB in 1db steps. I've never wanted smaller steps. The 47 position is -51.25 to +5 dB in 1.25 dB steps. I don't see the 1.25db steps being an issue.

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by Tony on 09/20/23 at 17:10:59

After researching passive preamps for a few hours and reading all the posts on the forum (quite a few dating back to 2010), I have paused this investigation for now.

For anyone interested, I found a couple of current sales of the Icon 4 through US Audio Mart for around $2220 - 2400— excellent interactions with the owners. Also, Pine Tree Audio can build a passive amp, customizing it to use Slagle autoformers (Elma 47 Position Autoformers), no remote, for around $1800. They also make lower-priced units or could use one of the less expensive Slagle autoformers - I found a reference to one for about $200.00. I'll keep these notes for a future time.

For now, I must console myself with tomorrow's return of my UFO25 amp from the deep freeze at Wathen. :)

Stay tuned.

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by Kamran on 09/21/23 at 02:11:59

Here is the shortlist when I was researching Autoformer based passives:

EMIA
Ic0n
Townshend Allegri (they don’t use slagleformers but are very highly rated nonetheless)
Adding Pine Tree Audio to the list

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by Kamran on 09/28/23 at 04:03:31

Here’s another one:

https://youtu.be/UHqtEf1YWqE?si=mg7N9kQAWfayjZcM

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by HiFi Bri on 08/09/24 at 20:17:44

I thought I remember reading somewhere about the voltage of the EMIA adjusting with the rise in volume, which is different that most passive preamps. Does this make sense?

Is it accurate to say the EMIA adds gain?

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by CAJames on 08/09/24 at 20:34:06

Quote:

Posted by: HiFi Bri Posted on: Today at 12:17:44

...Is it accurate to say the EMIA adds gain?

Yes. The gain range is -51.25 dB to +5 dB

https://myemia.com/new%20images/manuals/Elma_man.pdf

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by HiFi Bri on 08/09/24 at 20:41:36

Ah, got it. Looks like the remote version offers an addtional +2db of gain.

I love my UFO25 but I find I need to have it at about 75% volume (sometimes more) through 95db speakers in order to fill my room with muisc at the volume I prefer.

I like the idea of adding gain without adding a tube preamp. I'm very curious about these autoformers.

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by CAJames on 08/09/24 at 21:17:50

Quote:

Posted by: HiFi Bri Posted on: Today at 12:41:36

...I love my UFO25 but I find I need to have it at about 75% volume (sometimes more)...

Is that a problem? I have a tube preamp and run my UFO25s between 80 and 90%. I'm just curious, not critical.

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by HiFi Bri on 08/09/24 at 23:49:46

No, not a problem per se, I was just surprised that I had to turn the volume up louder on my new UFO25 than I previously did on my UFO amp.

With all the talk about gain riding, I've been curious about adding a little more to my system.

I don't currently have a preamp (other than the ZROCK) so it's just the UFO25 set at about 75% the majority of the time.

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by johnnycopy on 08/10/24 at 08:24:45

Hifi Bri, just for fun, I can recommend another name to your list. Here is an older listing that speaks about the pre against some other products.

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/solid-state-the-horn-shoppe-the-truth-preamplifer-2013-02-03-preamplifiers-85226-chandler-az

I own this preamp.

I like it a lot!

You can find them for well under $1,000 , used only, and they exhibit none of the problems I had with typical passives.

John

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by bloodlemons on 08/10/24 at 20:03:18

My CSP3 is usually between 50% and 75%.

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by HiFi Bri on 08/12/24 at 17:01:39

I emailed Dave Slagle about the possibility of adding the EMIA remote autoformer to the chain - specifically about the level of gain it brings and if he thinks it would provide me some ability to "ride the gain" as we say around here.

His response was that he felt the autoformers would work but may not give the improvement in sound that 12+dB of attenuation would give.

This has me considering adding a ZSTAGE to my system for a bit more gain, and using this along side the autoformer.

Or, perhaps I'm overthinking all this and I should just aim for a high quality tube preamp like the LTA Microzotl.

:-?

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by Tommy Freefall on 08/13/24 at 19:03:00

HiFi Bri,

I've got a spare ZStage I'm not using if you decide you'd like to try one out.
PM me if interested.

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by HiFi Bri on 08/14/24 at 22:43:45

Thanks Tommy!

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by Vickerman on 09/08/24 at 03:57:47

BTW, has anyone tried the Parasound JC2? It's received some very strong reviews and there are a fair number of them on the used market.

Cheers,

Paul

Title: Re: Non-Decware Preamp Shortlist
Post by S of T on 03/12/25 at 18:29:51

Van Alstine Transcendence 10 RB. After putting some hours on it with the stock JJ's/I put my Ediswan CV2492/6922's in. Absolutely stellar Preamp for the money. The topology of this little engine that could does get out of the way. Great dynamics riding the gain and tone too.

Of all the Audio I have owned and sold in 48 years (since I was 13). I was a fool to sell my Decware CSP3. If I didn't use my ZMA direct 75-80% of the time with my Snake River Audio Takshaka IC's (special relationship of running the ZMA direct from Steve's ZDSD), I would be on the list for a new CSP3. So, keep your order in you won't regret it!

However, while you are waiting this T10 with a pair of Cryotone E88CC's in it or some other pair of great NOS (sorry you can't get the Ediswans anymore) you can't go wrong with this overacheiver.

SonyTPort
Illuminations D60
ShunyataZ-AlphaDigPcord
Decware ZDSD DAC
Snake River Audio Takshaka IC
XLO Pro Powercord
Van Alstine T10 RB Pre
Kimber Select KS1030
XLOProPcord
DecwareZMA/25thMods
DIYKimber6063&6065/SCables
Acoustic Zen Adagio/Modified
KimberPK10Palladian from wall
to PSAudioP3
ZDSD&ZMA HCOut

Speaker Cables:
24awg 6N Silver Solid Core x 2 ConneX (Parts Connexion) PTFE
24awg UP-OCC Copper Solid Core x 3 Neotech (Sonic Craft)
19awg Kimber Wire TCSS Hyper-Pure Copper, VariStrand, *PTFE Dielectric x 3 (Parts Connexion).