Post by Steve Deckert on 07/14/21 at 03:56:05
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https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl AUDIO FORUMS >> General Discussion and Support >> New Torii MK V https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1626054622 Message started by piezoman on 07/12/21 at 02:50:22 |
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Title: New Torii MK V Post by piezoman on 07/12/21 at 02:50:22 Steve, can you give more details on the new Torii? |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 07/12/21 at 19:14:25 It's in development. I'll post some picks and full details when it's done. Meanwhile for Torii MK4 owners who will ask... The TORII MK4 with Anniversary Mods is not able to be further upgraded, it is at it's pinnacle. The TORII MK5 is while similar, a completely different amplifier. The fundamental difference between the two is MK4 is not ultra-linear while MK5 is ultra-linear. I don't anticipate the MK5 being a sonic breakthrough over the MK4, but rather an easier amplifier to own and operate. It will be FAR less picky about input tubes, and FAR less picky about what type of speaker you pair it with. That and appearance will be the only advantages it has over the MK4. In fact I should imagine that a MK4 with Anniversary Mods will sound better than a MK5 bone stock. Steve |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Tommy Freefall on 07/13/21 at 00:19:10 This new appearance has me curious. Can't wait to see what it's going to look like. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Dominick on 07/13/21 at 03:01:19 Yes it will be great to watch this development and hear how it sound by comparison. Dom |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 07/14/21 at 03:56:05 |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Tommy Freefall on 07/14/21 at 04:37:03 I already want one of these! |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Dominick on 07/14/21 at 07:44:04 Damn….I love it!! Besides moving the power switches to the front of the amp….I love the addition of the balanced inputs. The overall design looks really clean. When I enlarge the photo…I if my eyesight serves me right….I see wording that reads “Tube bias”….a nice big cutout to possibly house a meter….what else? I’m envious. Dom |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by piezoman on 07/14/21 at 20:14:06 Steve sez he doesnt recommend headphone listening with the Torii [or the ZMA for that matter], which would have to be otherwise done with an adapter......only for the low powered amps. Now that I found that out, my headphone listening days, few as they were, are going to be officially over. This Torii is far more important than having a great headphone amp short on power for speakers for about 50% of the music I listen to. Speakers > headphones. Looks like I'll have my Audeze LCD-3F phones up for sale sooner or later. Oh well, they come easy and they'll go easy. Though it looks like a 4 pin XLR headphone jack is installed [?] Brad |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by piezoman on 07/14/21 at 20:25:12 2 input tubes per channel? OC2 regulation tubes eliminated? ........something to do with the new ultralinearity? muy interasante |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by GroovySauce on 07/14/21 at 20:53:50 One input tube and one inverter tube, like the ZMA. Does look like the OC2's have been eliminated. That's a XLR jack in the back. Guessing that's an option similar to the ZMA. I like how the input selector is between the RCA's for very short signal path. Looks like the on the fly switching of the 4 or 8 ohm taps is going away in favor of a Ground and 4 ohm and 8 ohm binding post. Is this the first DECWARE amp with the screw type fuse holders? Interesting choice with the labeled volume pots. Is there going to be a new volume pot option? or, you don't need to count the clicks on the stepped and gold knobs? One switch is labeled as bias is the other positive feedback? |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by piezoman on 07/14/21 at 21:37:28 All makes sense, thanks Nigel [smiley=thumbup.gif] |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Tommy Freefall on 07/14/21 at 22:48:54 The photo is black & white, not color. Is that deliberate? Steve, are you offering your Torii Mk 5 amp chassis in colors other than black!? |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by jspot on 07/15/21 at 01:27:50 Nice photos |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by jspot on 07/15/21 at 01:29:41 When will be expetecd? |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Dr3wman on 07/15/21 at 04:10:20 Seeing that preview photo, I may have to reconsider my knob choice and go with the cream chicken head instead of the gold round. This is so exciting! |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by piezoman on 07/15/21 at 17:39:57 jspot, I would imagine the development is very close to being completed, as there are MK IV orders looming on the waiting list......hopefully Steve will chime in here. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 07/17/21 at 04:57:54 Yes, with dual volume, chicken head knobs is recommended. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by piezoman on 07/17/21 at 20:18:36 Alright, dual volume controls - fantastico!! Steve......what was the reason for deleting the 0_2 tubes? - Brad |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 07/18/21 at 02:36:37 Since the amp is ultra linear, there is no need to use OA3 for the screen grid because that grid is connected to the ultra linear tap of the output transformer. So I will use the OA3 for the input tubes instead of the OC3. Steve |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by piezoman on 07/18/21 at 02:44:26 Thanks Steve What makes this new Torii different from many other ultralinear amps? I've had a bit of a bad taste in my mouth after experiencing ultralinear in the past, and I've read similar from others.....many can tend to be a bit edgy. I have to admit, I was a bit reticent by your mention of this.....can you set me straight? To me, this could be a big deal.....or not. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by piezoman on 07/18/21 at 02:50:46 Also, any idea approx. when the MK V will enter into production and you'll be making the big announcement / set up a page on your site with all the details? |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 07/18/21 at 05:22:11 Well to answer your question about when will it go into production... little things like the present stand off between myself and the meter factory are adding weeks.   The Top View is ready for production now. The bottom view is an idea I had and it is being rejected. We are in negotiations. I'm going to cave because we have to go into production. However, if I can't have colors I will back light the meters as standard fair to make up for it. Steve |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 07/18/21 at 05:26:06  click on the image to see full resolution. So here we are at the beginning stages of the layout and by that I mean wiring layout... Internal parts layout. This is by far the hardest part of the amp design... because you are not only considering the voltage paths of everything and the associated magnetic fields, but how easily can it be copied, how easily can it be repaired aka a part be replaced, and how well can it handle 90G impacts during shipping. As you can see, the layout is symmetrical from the left channel to the right channel. At this stage we are just wiring all the transformer wires to get them out of the way so we can focus on building the amp. Over the years what you are looking at is what has become my preferred build style. I use nylon stand-offs with internal threading (4-40) to receive plated copper eyelets. This is a bomb-proof design that never comes loose, bends, or caves to the 90G shipping impacts. It costs a bit more, each white stand-off is almost a buck. The reason for tonights photo is that it occurred to me as I was soldering this that the ground buss is a factor in the design of all dual mono Decware amplifiers that might be worth chatting about. There is a 6 inch solid copper 12 AWG wire running down the exact center of the amplifier -- this is the audio ground buss. The steel chassis will be the shield. A 10Ohm 5 watt ceramic resistor and a capacitor in parallel will bond the audio ground to the earth ground that is directly connected to the steel chassis. This ground buss will become the center of a star ground for the entire amplifier, or should I say amplifier(s). The TORII MK5, MK4, MK3, MK2, MK1 have all been dual mono, so that means that it is two complete and separate amplifiers sharing the same chassis. Naturally the question becomes how is this different than two separate mono blocks? The answer is the ground, and power cord. Frankly the only thing two power cords can do is offer an opportunity for the resistance between the two to vary. That creates to ground busses that have a small potential between them. That's a recipe for noise and hum and some other nasties. And in part because of the power cords, the tension of the IEC connectors, the recepticals, and the lengths of each side, and what it runs next to all plays a part in the sound of the amp. Besides noise, it can effect imaging. Having a single 6 inch copper audio ground buss for both amplifiers, centered between the amplifiers with exactly the same length of wires between each channel relative to that buss and everything else sets up a potential for much tighter imaging focus and blacker backgrounds. Our Zen TORII MK1~MK5 as well as the ZMA are all built this way, with a very deliberately symmetrical and exactly balanced audio ground buss that floats slightly above earth ground helping it to reject noise and at the same liberate it from earth just enough to create a bit of flex that adds some life to the dynamics of the amplifier. So while in this picture it looks like almost nothing has been done yet, it reality almost everything has been done. Now it's just the details. The NC wires you see on each channel are the various voltage taps for the world voltage power transformers... that way the amplifier can be easily re-wired for 100 volts, 115 volts, 120 volts, 220, 230, 240 volts 50/60 HZ. Many of our customers live oversees for several years and then move back home for their job. This makes it possible to have the amp wired for any voltage. The switches you see, are all DPDT silver contact switches, the best Mountain brand for over 20 years. These are always used in Decware amps and wired with both halves of the switches in parallel so that there is never less than two separate contacts on every switch. We don't have any SPST switches like this in the building. So as you study this image, and see the transformers both fully wired except for one wire on each side, it is time to study the schematic, (there isn't one) and each and every part (resistors/capacitors) and exactly how it's going to be placed in 3D space. The wires you see bundled together are alternating current of different voltages. By wrapping them the field interaction smears the phase angles and helps homogenize the ripple. Rectified and filtered DC lines will be clear of these AC wires with nothing but air and space around each feed in 3D space. 3D Space is about magnetic fields around each wire, part lead, and part. On a circuit board the board combines with each part to add capacitance and the fields follow the flat traces creating a fairly 2D interaction on those fields. It is able to be calculated whereas 3D space is not, only in the mind of the guy who lays the parts out in the working bench sample, which is what you are watching develop here. I will be leaving these images at their 5 Megabyte size so that when you click on them you can see details that simply don't live in the 800 pixel images in this post. Steve |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 07/18/21 at 06:23:32 Quote:
Probably everything... I think if you watch this thread develop as this amp gets finished you will be able to answer you own question. If you can't wait, read the review in Tone Audio Magazine about the Zen Mystery Amp. It is ultra linear and he suggested it was better sounding that both WAVAC and Shindo amplifiers which are 10X the cost. I will be using the same 6N1P based Long Tail Splitter on this amp as I did the ZMA. Steve : ) |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by piezoman on 07/18/21 at 13:18:25 outstanding. thanks Steve, for that fascinating write-up. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by HockessinKid on 07/18/21 at 13:20:41 Steve, Wow! Another amazing design, layout and build forthcoming. I really appreciate the thoughtful approach you bring to upgrading Decware amplifier offerings. I hope all the Torii MKIV amp buyers in the que appreciate the fact they'll be receiving this updated version. Good luck with finalizing the build and putting this into production. I'm sure it will prove very popular. HK |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Dr3wman on 07/18/21 at 14:10:26 HK, You’re exactly right, as a Decware first-timer, and being one of those in the que for a Torii IV, I could not be happier or more impressed. My brother-in-law has been a Decware devotee for years, and I’ve been waiting eagerly to be able to finally join the club myself. The 7/8 month wait will definitely be worth it. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by piezoman on 07/18/21 at 15:45:28 Agreed, gentlemen. I am officially ecstatic and uber-appreciative! Steve is a certifiable genius. The wait will be far more than worth it. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Dominick on 07/18/21 at 17:36:11 Steve, What an amazing design!! Just when I thought this amp has reached its pinnacle, you come along and drop a bomb. If I already didn’t love my MKIV 25th, I would sell it and jump back into this new design. For those on the waitlist, congrats on getting this that this major upgrade. I wish I could have attended Decfest this year to see and hear this new amp in person. Dom |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Dr3wman on 07/19/21 at 16:42:31 Steve, I can understand if you are not prepared to release all of the details yet, but should we expect the Torii V to remain at 25 watts? Thanks! Andrew |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 07/20/21 at 04:20:46 Yes, It will be rated at 25 watts, just as before. The external fuse holders are four times the cost of the internal rectifier fuse board that we presently use however since a fair number of people have actually blown the internal fuses on their amplifiers over the years when a rectifier tube miss-behaves, I thought I would try something new and make them external. Additionally, the mains fuse is now dual, meaning one per channel. This will help you diagnose amplifier problems by seeing which channel took out the fuse and which fuse it was. Steve |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by piezoman on 07/20/21 at 06:08:58 Wow Steve, that is fantastic. The great news on this new masterpiece keeps pouring in! Can't wait to read all the juicy details on this shrine when the time comes, which hopefully is very soon! Brad |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Stantoiler on 07/27/21 at 19:26:25 Hello to you all and i'm sorry to come back that late. I only wanted to check the amplifier waiting list and then saw this topic. That's amazing! It seem to me that some members who replied to this post and are on the waiting list with a TorIIMKIV expect to be automatically upgraded to the MKV. I somehow can't believe that this is possible without an additional payment for the upgraded parts like the fuse box, balanced inputs a.s.o. As the new MKV is not yet finished and someone wants an upgrade to MKV, will there be a step back on the waiting list? And the waiting list. I checked it nearly every day, at work or at home. At home with a decade old Imac, at work with an actual version of a windows PC. If i click the link (at home or at work), a blank window opens, a black Decware image with a black thin loading line below that runs from left to right is shown. After a second everything is gone, but the list won't show up, refreshing the site won't help. Until now i had no difficulties. :-[ I know that this won't fit in these topic, but as i'm also waiting for some month now and my solid state amp is defect, i only listened to the kitchen radio and on the way to work in the car. Well, that is not funny and somewhere else i found a topic with recommendations on cheap tube amps to get over the waiting time. The small little amp that was posted there was nowhere available. I looked around and found a cheap used tube amp, which sadly seems also no longer available new and i don't know the price for a new unit. I paid 235 € with two new additional PSVANE EL-34 B tubes. It is a Gemtune-X1 amp. Never heard of that brand before. It's small and puts out 2 x 8 Watt. I didn't expect much, but even with stock power cord to me, the amp sounds amazing. It has only one input, but with an additional add-on input switch, maybe remote controlled if something like that exists, anyone can build a very cheap system that sounds really fine with fitting speakers. The amp has speaker outputs for 4 and 8 ohm (only banana plugs). I took out the fuse box and it even contains a second fuse for replacement! Can't recall any amp that i have seen or read about that offers that. Please take a look at the image of the amp. Did somebody read the review of the Doshi Audio Evo monoblocks in the May issue of stereophile? $ 40.000 for the amps and the power knob on one of them is out of order? Absolutely unbelievable, and i definitely don't like the design of it too, but that's a matter of taste. And one last question. Anybody gave some thoughts on how to keep the tube amp dust free or the best way to clean the amp? I don't think that you want to take out all tubes every month or so to clean the device. I thought about using an air pressure can in one hand and the vacuum cleaner in the other to collect all the dust from the air, but i haven't tried that. I place a lightweight cloth over my turntable when it is not in use. But that is also not the best solution. An acrylic hood seems also not practical, as my amp will not have a place on top of the rack. So that won't work for me. Any ideas welcome and much appreciated. Thank you all. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Lon on 07/27/21 at 20:19:38 You had better believe Steve when he says that those who are waiting for a Mk IV to be built will get the Mark V at no additional charge. He only says that when he means it. Most Decware components come with an extra fuse in the receptacle as well. The only one I've never seen is the ZTPRE which uses two separate long fuses, one for each channel, and they are not in the IEC inlet. I don't have an item on the waiting list, but when I click the link it opens up for me. Be sure to cut and paste the ENTIRE link that I pasted on another thread as the system only created a hyperlink of most of it, with the final part not underlined thus not a full link that would open. Repairs and modifications to existing Decware components are a different matter than new builds--they get pretty immediate attention, most turn arounds are two weeks or so. Of course the Mk IV to Mk V mods of this component may be a different matter--they may not be tackled until production models are fully completed. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Stantoiler on 07/27/21 at 21:30:11 Hello Lon, when i read through the post i haven't seen, or overread the statement that there are no additional cost for an upgrade. If so, wow, Steve, thanks a thousand times! Sorry and i'll reread the complete post again. I had no idea if the Decware amps come with replacement fuses or not, and i don't think that this is an important issue. It was only remarkable for me, to see something included in such a cheap amp. By now i can only say that "most" components, regardless of price, come without a second fuse. Thanks for the fast reply and good night, good evening or good morning for now. (here it is 10:30 p.m.) |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Lon on 07/27/21 at 21:45:13 I haven't yet located the post where Steve says that those on the order list will receive the new Mk V version--that was in another thread. I will only say that any time Steve has said that those on the waiting list, or those that order before a product page is up, etc. there has been no extra charge for the customer, to my knowledge. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Dr3wman on 07/27/21 at 21:47:56 Lon - From the Decware Concept Speakers post: "Yes, there will be a TORII MK5 once the steel gets here. Everyone with a recent TORII MK4 on order will be getting a MK5 at the MK4 price. It's going to be sweet. I made the TORII JRv2 so good there was really little incentive to move up to a TORII MK4, and sonically the incentive won't be huge over a TORII JRv2, but visually and in other ways it will be worth the extra bucks. If not for all the delays in supply lines this amplifier would have been in the final stages of listening in the production chassis by now. Nothing I can do about it but wait for chassis." |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Lon on 07/27/21 at 21:49:35 Thanks for identifying that post Dr3W. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by GroovySauce on 07/27/21 at 23:16:13 Keeping the amps clean, Steve suggests using a soft bristle paint brush and brush the dust off. I also suggest a HEPA air filter that is rated much larger than the room. Run when you are not listening to the system. I have an APPJ el84 amp 3.5w I use with the tiny radials. I bought it used for $85 shipped with two sets of tubes. it’s a great little amp for less than $100! Tomorrow I’m loaning it to my sister for her Caintuck F15’s because the Bluesound Powernode “doesn’t sound good” and she wants some of that “sweet tube magic”. She got spoiled by borrowing a UFO25th for a few months. APPJ and Gemtune are the same products AFAIK. There might be some confusion about the 2 fuses, or only I am :) . Most of the modern DECWARE amps have the standard IEC fuse, and a fuse protecting the amp if the rectifier blows. The CSP3 has 4 fuses actually. The MKV has the "rectifier" fuse is now relocated for easy access. MKIV you needed to remove all the tubes, RCAs, speaker cables and PC. Then unscrew all the screws and take the amp apart. The amount of high voltage caps can kill a person who doesn't know what they are doing. vs a simple push and twist to remove and check / replace the fuse. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Lon on 07/28/21 at 01:59:31 Right, there are three-fuse boards inside many of the Decware components. But there is an extra main power fuse stored inside the IEC input housing. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 07/28/21 at 02:06:58 Monday morning our online software (ZOHO) updated itself and many of the features we rely on disappeared, and other things changed. Basically access to our data was held hostage. But worse, even when the yearly ransom was paid we had to spend two days fixing everything. This included the build sheet. And the old link quit working. That alone had our phone ringing off the hook for two days. Anyway, here is the new link to the real-time build sheet: https://creatorapp.zohopublic.com/decwarehighfidelity/decware/report-perma/Amplifier_Waiting_List/hAqfNhyE7rNXQFUDfyb7Y8G8r0RRrP82DMY814hPnsknzr8711vTq3QU2gaK0CVOwv4Kdps4kPsAeNCtpP8sawfYKv3E46OMpk6T Steve |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by piezoman on 07/28/21 at 21:06:18 Steve, when are the MK V chassis due in? |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 07/30/21 at 05:38:53 I have them now. I am about half-way through the build of the first production sample. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by piezoman on 07/30/21 at 05:40:41 Beautiful! |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 07/30/21 at 05:53:14 Click on image for full size  This is the magical point where all the transformers are installed and the long wires from each are buttoned up and we are now ready to actually build the amp... The UFO output transformers feature silver plated copper wire with Teflon, and we makes the leads so long that when we cut them to length for the build, we have enough left over to wire all the critical parts of the signal path and ground path in silver. So the blue, blue/yel, brown, brown/yel, red, light green wires are all silver/Teflon. This represents the pates and cathodes of the output tubes and the transformers between the tubes and loudspeaker. So the next step is to begin installing the filter caps. I will be using an Atom Sprague 8uf cap for each channel as the first section and then 47uf/500V F&T German caps for the rest. Everything is dual mono, so everything is done twice. As you watch this evolve and the layout I hope some of you will intuitively see why it so superior to using circuit boards, which you can imagine how much they would simply the build. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 07/30/21 at 06:02:10 Click on the pictures for the full size images  So here we are totally focused on individual parts of the circuit... the filter caps, the bias circuit, the ground buss... It laid out nicely, as though it were meant to be. Now time to lay out a kick ass cathode circuit... after all that is a vital component in the signal path. So hear it is, a master piece, all sliver and so simple. The two large blue 10W wire wound resistors and the yellow silver Teflon wire connecting to pin 8 of each output tube.  Yes, it was a glorious moment as my mind went into how simple that came out and how good it was going to sound... then a bit of reality set in. This isn't a TORII JRv2. I have a bias meter that has to work for all four tubes or each tube separately, or in combinations. Hmmm wish I had a little less focus sometimes. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 07/30/21 at 06:12:21 Click on image to see full size  A few changes...  Each tube has to have it's own bias resistor so the big blue ones are gone, and now we have black 6.5W DALE wire wound resistors for each tube wired to a silver contact switch using a DPDT switch for each tube so that we can parallel both sides of the switch to double the contact area and current rating. Silver wire connects the cathodes of each output tube to the resistors which are directly wired to switches. The switches allow the user to connect the cathode to meter one tube at a time, a pair of tubes at a time, or all of the tubes at once to see the current draw. They also can connect directly to ground bypassing the meter at which point the meter reads zero. In this sample the meter is not made by us, so it is not back-lit nor is it colored like the illustrations I showed earlier. But it will work and look great until our custom meters arrive. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 07/30/21 at 06:21:50 Click on image for full size  See, the 3D layout of the parts where you go both horizontal and vertical and at oblique angles keep the ora (magnetic field) of each part from getting squashed. The yellow and red wires tied to the black wire (ground) are AC wires that are pre-filtered. So the closer you bundle them the more the fields cancel and the better ripple reduction and overall noise cancellation you get. The ground wire is a drain for those fields so they have somewhere to go other than into your audio signal. There are times to bundle wires like this, and then the opposite is required when dealing with the signal path. I have seen countless amplifies where both are tied together to make the inside of the amplifier look neat, but mixing the two is guaranteed to ruin the sound. Also in this and all Decware Designs, we do not use the chassis for a ground buss. No audio signals enter it, instead we use copper and silver wire to have total control over eddy currents that flow in large conductive plates. Our chassis is used as a shield connected to Earth with the audio ground completely separated. All Decware amps are made this way. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Dominick on 07/30/21 at 07:58:55 Steve, I’m sitting here at work in awe! This amp will be kickass when it’s done!! If it were possible… I’m sure all of us would love to see a few video clips of this build as you work on the amp….just as long as it doesn’t give away your trade secrets. Either way…please keep the posts coming!! Dom |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Dr3wman on 07/30/21 at 16:23:01 Steve, Wow, seeing how intricate all of this is (at least to a layman) leads me to wonder, with an amp like the Torii V.......once it's in full production, roughly how long does it take to build up to the QC portion? |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by spyder1 on 07/30/21 at 18:56:20 Steve, I hope you are keeping detailed notes about the "New Torii MK V" build, to help with the development of the "Production SOP." |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 07/31/21 at 05:26:39 These are the detailed notes. When I'm done I'll draw a schematic. Otherwise I'm just making this up as I go. Zenning my way through the layout as always. This one turned out pretty good. The size of the capacitors can change without destroying the original layout. Yes, live and learn... Have yet to hear this design at the lower voltages so not sure what will happen. If I don't like it I will figure out a way to make it sound the way I want. Somehow that apparently is my greatest talent. Sorry, I couldn't do a video... I have to get into a zone to do this. It will take two people to make a video, and it would have to be made of a production unit being made not the chess game of laying out a new amp, which takes hours. Anyway, the initial build is done. You'll have to click on the image to see it enlarged.  So if you study the high res image, the bottom left tube is the phase inverter. It is a 6N1P-EV long-tail splitter without negative feedback that is direct-coupled to a second 6N1P-EV acting as a cathode follower which lowers the impedance making it better suited at driving different output tubes. Also gives it a special sound. It is the most perfect waveform of all 116 phase inverter designs I've studied. You can control the harmonics by where you place the load lines while keeping the distortion very low. This is the same front end used in the Zen Mystery Amp. So the audio circuit, as it were, starts a t the volume control and moves to the phase inverter tube and then to the cathode follower and then to the coupling caps that take the signal to the output tubes. While it looks messy at a glance, the plate and cathode resistors are matched with matched lead lengths on both tubes. Also the blue silver Teflon wire that connects the plates of the phase inverter to the grids of the follower is matched lengths. In fact everything is matched lengths. The parts leads, the connecting wire, and everything is laid out in a mirror image. This is how we do every Decware amplifier. This layout has about eleven nodes per channel. That's about half to a third as many as it could easily have had with a different layout. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Archie on 07/31/21 at 06:21:42 What's the single meter for? |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 07/31/21 at 06:29:53  Click image to see full size. I've always been driven to make things symmetrical and match the wire and lead lengths of virtually every part in an amplifier. No way to measure any benefit, I just always do it. Despite looking like a bowl of spaghetti to the un-trained eye, this is one of the best layouts I've done for the bigger amps. You can see the nice 500V F&T caps on each channel... we use those in every amplifier we make because there is no better. Also they are axial leads not radial. Axial lead caps take a lot more room, but typically sound and perform better. The meter is a place-holder until our custom ones are finished. I can test the amp with this one. The custom ones are back-lit, so there will be a couple more wires : ( needed to light the meter when they get here. Also I haven't installed the optional balanced XLR transformers in this sample yet. Green wires are primarily ground, red wires are high voltage, yellow are low voltage. The Blue and Brown are signal path. From the input sector switch I use shielded MOGAMI wire and tie both the left and right conductors together to double the thickness of the conductor and then run that to the volume control. It is fully shielded so it will not pick up any AC from the power supply rectifiers. Also I am running a 1K grid resistor on the phase inverter and all output tubes. That will block wifi and bluetooth crap in the air from getting into the signal path and the tubes themselves. The way you know I've been doing this for almost 30 years is that I won't be installing the fuses and firing it up until the mood strikes me tomorrow sometime. Since there is a chance I will have to fix or change something and ruin my virgin layout, I will wait until I am better prepared to deal with that... and if I am delighted because everything works and sounds perfect it will be an above average day. If it torments me and drags me through the mud all day or all weekend then it means the Audio Gods liked it so much they wanted to add their touch and make it better. Their methodology is suffering until it suddenly ignites into joy. One of the best parts about this type of design and layout is that leads are short, everything is well supported, the entire picture as you see it can be installed into a paint shaker and run for 15 minutes and look exactly the same. That's the easy test. It just trains you not to make the leads to long. The real test is called UPS, USPS, FEDEX, DHL, etc. These ass hats will subject it to 90G impacts, usually several before it gets to your house. The amplifier has to be able to take it without wires bending, breaking or parts leads cracking from vibration during the long ride in the truck to your house. Literally, to simulate a 90G impact which can be measured with glass shipping vials taped to your product, we have to get on the roof of the shop and throw the amp 17 feet to the concrete below -- not drop it, throw it. This layout would be un-scathed. And this is why and how we can have a lifetime warranty. Sadly it will take 2 days to build it. A circuit board could reduce that time to a couple hours. But the identical circuit done on circuit boards would be such a downgrade that you would have to compensate with super exotic caps. We use eight $40 capacitors in this amplifier. You would need $400 capacitors to approach the same sound, but even then it would only be a weak attempt to sound this good. You just can get flat copper or even gold traces on a circuit board to behave and sound like round wire in 3D space with lots of space around each part to let the field melt without saturating every other part. Not to mention vibration. The circuit board forces vibration on everything, and every wire, every node. All of it. This layout has no possibility of that sort of resonance. Look, I'm feeling a little old after a year of working double shifts to test these amps before they get to your house, and a circuit board would allow me to make 5 times more money, in 1/4 the time, which would give me a life. Probably why you see almost everyone else using them. I looked at a very famous amplifier the other night that claimed to be point-to-point wired, and indeed the output tube sockets were hand wired but the amp was full of circuit boards with radial caps, relays, solid state regulation and ribbon cables carrying everything from working voltages to signals. If I put even one plug-in ribbon cable even in this amp, it would be game over. You only hear the weakest link in the chain. No scope can detect the difference or any computer spice simulation. But I've tried it an listened to what happens. It's no different than using lamp cord for speaker wire. Sounds exactly like that in fact. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Archie on 07/31/21 at 06:58:30 That's such a thing of beauty. When are you going to make a glass top amp? |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Dominick on 07/31/21 at 08:24:17 Steve….can’t wait to hear your listening impressions once this amp is done. Something tells me that with the 6N1P-EV input tubes, this amp may just sound better than the MKIV out of the gate. Dom |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Eldergod on 07/31/21 at 15:18:04 Been watching this thread on the new V… ugh. I need someone to stop me from joining the madness of placing an order for one. I’m smitten. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 07/31/21 at 19:16:20 Quote:
Let the suffering begin. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Geno on 07/31/21 at 19:29:48 Hang in there Steve-O. The family is behind you 100%! Just concentrate on what you know the final result will be😊 We appreciate all that you do!!! |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 08/04/21 at 01:16:56 Thanks Geno, the encouragement is nice. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 08/04/21 at 02:23:13  click on image to see full size. If you do, you will see the laminations in the right hand output transformer... each of those is actually three laminations. So three dark, three light, and so on. And I'm back. The first thing I did wrong was hook two resistors to the wrong spot on each channel. Of all the resistors in the amplifier, there are only two that if omitted or misconnected can open the portal. The Portal is a passage to underworld, a world where physics are bent around the humor of the punisher... For example, this particular mistake can take a DC power supply in an amplifier that is only capable of putting out 350 volts under load and 450 volts with no load climb all the way up to 600~700 volts or more. I never had the nuts to see how high it would go before the entire amplifier exploded in my face, so I usually killed it at 600. Remember an amplifier is an oscillator designed not to oscillate ; ). Other things the portal can make happen is a perfectly working amplifier to really mess with you or one that will not pass a signal at all or any combination of the two depending on the humor of the punishers. I said punishers this time (plural) because by now there are several standing around the crystal pool watching you. In the case of this amp, it did neither. Instead it found something new and caused the cathode biased tubes to climb to hundreds of mills until smoke started coming off the cathode resistors and I had to pull the plug. No worries, I found this one fairly quickly, having recognized that when something impossible is happening, the portal has been opened and the only way to open the portal is to leave out the grid bias resistors that follow the coupling-caps. Without that reference, turning on the amp immediately opens the portal. So I knew to look at those and sure enough I had them wired on the wrong side of the caps. This is what happens when doing a new layout, because you are highly focused on the layout rather than the circuit and often make stupid mistakes. My only thought after finding this, is that the amp probably will work now. It didn't. Still wouldn't pass a signal. This is about the time when you know it's time to buckle in and ride it out, or walk away. The next day I gave it another shot and found that the reason it would only put out 500 milliwatts at full volume was because I forgot to wire the high voltage to cathode follower tube plates. HA, this is just like when I forget to plug an amplifier into the wall and wonder why the damn thing won't turn on... this is going to be easy. My only thought after finding this, is that the amp probably will work now. It didn't. Still wouldn't pass a signal. This is about the time you have to balance the negative forces at play with some profanity. Without profanity man would still be trying to get the wheel to work. So I did that. Sadly the amp didn't fix itself and jump to life so let it set for another day. Today I fixed it. Here's what happened... Even though this amp uses the exact front-end of a Zen Mystery Amp, I deliberately did not look at our working sample of the ZMA because I wanted to invent a completely different internal layout without being influenced by the original one on the ZMA. So instead I used my schematic of the ZMA to built the front-end and as a result did in fact come up with a better layout. During that experience I became obsessed with the .1uf cap used in the tail of the long tail splitter (phase inverter). I became compelled for some reason to revisit it. Why did I make it .1uf? Can it be smaller? After diving down that worm hole I found out I made it .1uf because that is the only value that will work properly to balance out the low frequency response of the phase inverter. I was also obsessed about where to locate the cap in the layout. It really became all about the cap there at the end... This obsession with the cap turned out to be a misinterpretation of a warning from the Audio Gods who were trying to tell me there was a problem with that cap. The problem was that I drew the schematic wrong. Specifically when I drew the schematic, I drew on lead of this cap connected to the wrong place so when I followed the schematic I build the new amp wrong and wasted a lot of time comparing my work to the schematic in defiance unable to find anything wrong. Once I looked at the ZMA, I could instantly see what happened. So tonight it is on the bench doing some chin-ups as I write this. I will listen to it tomorrow. I am pleased to report the biggest challenge being to get the 'TORII Harmonics' right, and at 1 watt they nearly perfectly match a Zen Triode amplifier, which is actually better than the TORII MK4, also, the distortion is lower. Depending on tubes used, the range is between 0.2% and 1% total THD. Of course if you stripped out that first harmonic which we all so dearly love, the figure would drop closer to 0.02%. This will be a rich textured amp just as it has always been but with far more forgiving front-end with even lower distortion. The bandwidth also improves with the UFO transformers and overall resolution will be higher. This weekend will be nice as I will start breaking it in tomorrow at work and by Friday night, we'll be ready to hear the results. P.S. I want you all to know that the hellish feeling of trying to fix something that you can't find anything wrong with happens many times to all of us as we put together your amplifies via this painful process. Circuit boards eliminate this. You can see why Decware amplifiers sound like Decware amplifiers. It takes real men to face this dragon on a regular basis and always come out victorious because there is no other choice. The longest the Audio Gods will punish you is 24 total hours. That's basically four work days. But they can be defeated in numbers, so if two or three of us look it over, the hours melt off quickly. That's how we overcome the dragons during the daytime, but this particular project like all new amps, I just fight alone so as not to burden my crew. Steve |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 08/04/21 at 02:35:36 God help the poor bastard that tries to copy this amp from the photos unless they want to meet the Audio Gods and the Punishers in person. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by piezoman on 08/04/21 at 03:12:46 Steve, another fascinating insight into the pain and delight of a mad scientist :-) Thanks for sharing. I hope this doesn't sound nitpicky on the visuals, will you by any chance be revising what's going on with the print around the volume knobs? Might there be a consideration to make it considerably less dominant, or removed altogether like your other amps? Wow, its sounding like this amp is going to be incredible! I am really looking forward to having one. Brad |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 08/04/21 at 03:37:29 Quote:
Yes, that's the whole thing! It takes 12 to 20 hours to do a TORII size amplifier and then another hour in QC to test and analyze it, as well as hand select perfect tubes for it so that when we measure it, it measures perfect. If it has any anniversary mods, those are added after the fact to a fully tested stock amplifier, so another couple hours there, and then another hour of QC and on occasion we will hook it up in the listening room and spend an hour or an evening with it. In contrast, there are videos on Youtube of a Fender tube guitar amplifier being mass produced one every 11 minutes. And I know first hand from a guitar shop tech that every one had to be hand soldered after it was unpacked and before it went onto the sales floor. Wave soldering tube amps only works on video and on paper... but considering you can sell an amp for less and then make the entire cost of the amp back a second time in repairs and your dealers get a big cut of that action as well... So you see, Decware isn't magic pixy dust that no-one else has... it's pure hard work that isn't very profitable, unlike making a 3 foot power cord and charging 21 grand for it. We love what we do because we get to share our discoveries with you which magnifies the experience. And it's paying the bills -- the company is family owned and has zero debt. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 08/04/21 at 04:00:05 Regarding the print around the knobs, it is designed for chicken head knobs to be highly functional since there are dual controls. The reason I went with white is so that in the dark from only the glow of the tubes and meters you would be able to see the numbers. During the day it is a lot of contrast and gray would have looked more appropriate. That said, a 38~42mm knob with a 1/4 inch shaft will fit perfectly and cover it. The knobs we use on the ZTPRE are a fine example of what I'm referring to.  |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by piezoman on 08/04/21 at 04:10:02 Very well, thanks for the reasoning, and the tip, Steve! I will look into a pair of larger snappy metal volume knobs. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Brian on 08/04/21 at 05:03:23 I find the volume notation to be a nice improvement. "This is about the time you have to balance the negative forces at play with some profanity. Without profanity man would still be trying to get the wheel to work. So I did that." This is my favorite part of a most entertaining write-up. Thanks, Steve. Brian |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Archie on 08/04/21 at 06:10:28 I have to agree with the knob printing aesthetic objections. Too busy. The problem with making a beautiful product is that tiny flaws stand out. I don't have any 20 step attenuators but with a single index line on the knob, I've never had a problem matching knob positions on my CSP3. It's funny, I always wondered why nothing was labeled on Decware amps and now that I see labels I like it much better without. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 08/04/21 at 17:46:34  Here is a pic of a 38mm knob because that's what I have in stock. A 42mm knob would completely hide the indexing for those who don't like it.  Just put it in the listening room.  . Now after the 20 minute OA3 warm-up there is no question that this sounds better than the Torii Jr., and it may even be better sounding than the ZMA (but 1/2 the power). If that turns out to be true my goal has been reached. To offer 3 different amplifiers. Nevertheless I am surprised that it sounds better than a TORII JRv2... We can't say it's the output transformers, because they are the same. The only differences are the power supplies and the phase-inverter. I'm not sure yet which is responsible for what I'm hearing, but it is very compelling. Not even the original Blue TORII's were this good.I'm going to have genuine fun this year at DECFEST watching peoples faces when they hear the combination of this amplifier, the new Tube Tots (speakers) and the HOLO MAY DAC backing it all up. It's just hard to believe how good it is. Ear Candy... |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by GroovySauce on 08/04/21 at 18:35:09 The MK V looks great! I do prefer the larger knobs. Looking forward to all the pleasures of the ear at DECFEST this year! Is the custom meter you're waiting for different internally or just aesthetically? Will that change the sound? In what ways does the MK V sound different than the MK IV? |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by ScottNC on 08/04/21 at 18:39:31 Absolutely Stunning… Amazing how you can continue to Best the Best! Highest Regards… |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by piezoman on 08/04/21 at 19:04:38 The audio quality comments from Steve is exhalting! And yes, the direction those volume knobs take the visuals is much better. Your creation is beautiful! I'm stoked! After originally putting in my order with the 25th mods, I wonder how THAT is going to sound. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 08/04/21 at 19:09:55 We can offer this amp with or without silk screen the way it currently sits... The chassis is a mirror image, so either the screened side or the non-screen side can be used. Steve |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by EdwardT on 08/04/21 at 20:21:04 “ Wave soldering tube amps only works on video and on paper” Repairing cracked and corroding solder pads is the story of my work career and the source of my love for point to point wiring. This amp is a beautiful product. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Dominick on 08/05/21 at 00:04:20 This new design is phenomenal !! The layout is so clean. I love that the bigger chassis spreads the tubes out more and makes it easier to handle. The larger knobs fit nicely in the new layout as well. I’m sure other Torii owner’s like myself are chomping at the bit waiting to hear how this compares to the MKIV. Interesting that you feel this may even be better sounding than the ZMA at half the power. Please elaborate. Dom |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by derekinla on 08/05/21 at 00:48:17 Hi Steve, Is the sound improvement you noted a comparison between the MK V prototype over a stock Torii JrV2?.... or does that performance difference still hold when compared to a Torii JrV2 with the copper bypass mods? I know it's early and and probably premature to make definitive conclusions but wanted to get a rough idea of how close a Torii JrV2 with the copper bypass mods is to the new MK V. I've been mostly lurking around here for a few months and have been on the fence about which amp to buy. I was originally set on getting a Rachael but your recent praise for the Torii JrV2 made me re-consider (and revise my budget!). This new discovery may make my amp buying decision even harder! If it turns out the performance difference is due to something specific to the power supply and phase inverter, could that change be ported over to future iterations of the Torii Jr, ZMA, SET amps etc... ? Could there be "Christmas Comes Early" 2021 or 2022?? |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 08/05/21 at 02:18:20 Hi Derekinla, Welcome the forum and welcome to the family. At this stage it is too early to say. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the differences. When I listen to it, I find I have to remind myself that it doesn't have any anniversary mods yet. As far as my comparison to the ZMA, I think I am zeroing in on the output transformers. I think that is what I am hearing. The combination of the ZMA phase splitter on a cathode biased amp using the UFO output transformers. It's a unique combination that looks like it's going to have it's own sound. TORII JRv2 - original direct-coupled phase splitter, single power supply, 20 Watt UFO transformers, cathode bias. TORII MK4 - original direct-coupled phase splitter, dual power supply, 25 Watt Non-UFO transformers, cathode bias. TORII MK5 - long tail direct-coupled phase splitter, dual power supplies, 20 Watt UFO transformers, cathode bias, meter. ZMA - long tail direct-coupled phase splitter, dual power supplies, 40 Watt Non-UFO transformers, fixed bias, meters. As far as the nitty gritty sound quality differences between them with or without anniversary mods, let me say this: At AXPONA or a similar audio show environment all four amplifiers would sound the same so long as 20 watts was enough power. The subtle differences would become apparent in your quiet home, but even then would be clearly in the category of subtle, so it's not like you can pick the wrong amplifier based on sound quality or sound signature. You should all know me by now, I make everything sound a certain way or I don't make it. It's the Decware sound, it's baked right in. It's a tight family where as you get to know each amp, little personality changes begin to appear and you may develop a clear favorite or you may not. Steve |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by piezoman on 08/05/21 at 03:51:27 Very interesting. And the MK 5 actually decreased 5 watts too. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 08/05/21 at 04:13:39 OK, Hold the phone... something is wrong. After 12 hours and a bit of time this evening to listen, there is no way this sound can be from any of the things I've mentioned. What I am hearing is something new, and not a combination of things from the other amps. I'm sorry this sounds too good, something is wrong. Something has happened. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 08/05/21 at 06:35:39 This evening when I was playing with the bias meter switches to see if there was an audible effect on the sound, I found out that there was. When all four switches are on, magic happens. When all four switches are off, it's just like the TORII JR, or TORII MK4, the extra resolution it has not doing it any real favors except on some recordings. Flip the switches and the imaging just gels, and the liquidity explodes. Sounds like we're listening to a giant triode now... I had a glancing thought about this when I was figuring out how to wire the meter to work with all four tubes, one at a time, a pair at a time, or all four (or three if your odd). Wondering how mixing the cathode resistors of each tube into a single resistor vs. having each directly connected to ground was going to sound but didn't worry about it much since the switches can be operated either way. Now after hearing what happened, I can see what is happening. Each tube has it's own cathode resistor holding it above ground at a certain height... in the other TORII's each pair of output tubes share a single cathode resistor which allows for some self-balancing of current between the tubes. That's a good thing socially, however the channels are separate. Dual mono. Even in a TORII JR where there is a single power supply, there is a dual mono capacitor filter network, one for each channel, and the channels are separated. So tonight we have each tube separated with it's own cathode resistor for a total independence when the meter is off. These cathode resistors are bypassed with a capacitor which acts like a resistor at lower frequencies creating what would be like a common resistor for all four tubes. Also you don't really want the capacitor across the meter because it will make it prematurely bounce around at full power. When you switch all four switches to meter, the cathode resisters merge into one just before they hit the ground giving the two channels a little negotiation time to balance things out. It shows up as a reduction of edge in the music and a better focus because subtle phase angle differences between the two channels can now resolve themselves in the mid and high frequencies. Realize what we have done, is take two completely separate mono blocks with floating output stages, their own power switches, even their own fuses, and let them both share a single 1.5 ohm resistor in the most critical part of the signal path, the cathode. So I guess the recommended method of operation after you amuse yourself by checking the bias of each tube one at a time, and in pairs, you should leave all four switches on so the meter is active. I can't image anyone not doing this anyway because no one wants to see a meter not doing anything. Here is a diagram of the cathode circuit that seems to be behind all the magic.  |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by derekinla on 08/05/21 at 07:52:47 Thank you Steve for the detailed feedback to my question and the technical explanation of your incredible discovery! Can the Cathode resistors be merged in the Torii Jr to take advantage of this sonic breakthrough from the audio gods? Could this be a sort of CCE21 update to bring the Torii Jr 2.0 to V2.1? :) |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by piezoman on 08/05/21 at 11:44:58 Did the MK 5 actually lose 5 watts? I thought the Torii was determined to be perfect at 25 watts. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Lon on 08/05/21 at 15:05:37 Wow. Looks as if this will be a great amp. I'm broke as far as audio equipment goes, so I'm glad I am so very happy with my Monoblocks and remember that whenever I've compared the low-powered amps to the higher-powered Decware amps I've preferred the SET sound. (And I am so enjoyng just listening to music and not being audio analytical!) But there are going to be many happy users of this amp next year! |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 08/05/21 at 16:48:48 The total wattage is determined by the trade offs between bias, high voltage and class A operation. Presently I have the tubes biased at 50 mil ea., which is higher than the JR or MK4. This drops the peak power, but increases the amount of class A power. No one can hear a difference between 20 and 25 watts so why not focus on making it sound better down where the power is used. Steve |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 08/05/21 at 16:56:37 Of course I will gradually play with this on the TORII JR and MK4 to see if it has the same effect. A meter shouldn't be required in theory, only a resistor but we shall see. Steve |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Archie on 08/05/21 at 17:56:16 Quote:
Interesting. So, when I bias my ZMA on the high side, am I also gaining Class A operation at the expense of max power? |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 08/05/21 at 18:43:26 Yup. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Archie on 08/05/21 at 19:35:28 Now I'll have to play with this to hear how loud it can go! |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by GroovySauce on 08/05/21 at 19:46:44 Archie, I'm guessing you are saying that in jest. Increase from 40 watts to 50 watts is ~1db increase in SPL ;D Also in theory 25 Watts to 20 Watts in about ~1db SPL decrease. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Kirk on 08/05/21 at 22:56:19 This thread is tormenting me. Why? ZMA or Torii MK V? I have new Klipschorns (and a tolerant wife). My UFO2 and Cambridge Audio DAC are rocking my world and it's beautiful. 15wx18lx9h room. Is there still more to be extracted from the K-horns? (the glow of tubes and backlit meters makes me happy) |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by GroovySauce on 08/06/21 at 01:01:39 Kirk, Is there still more to be extracted from the K-horns... I say yes. Is a new amp the answer? guessing no, If you like the SET UFO2 sound stick with it. I've spent a bunch of time with the SET, PP and ultra linear amps from DECWARE. I prefer the PP / Ultra linear sound. All three have fantastic holography, speed, etc. Lon has owned both Torii and UFO amps and prefers the SET sound. Without knowing your systems and room setup, acoustic treatment is the best thing you can do. Cables are also important. Glowing tubes makes me happy too :) |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Geno on 08/06/21 at 03:23:03 Kirk, In a listening room your size, with the very efficient K-horns, I am surprised that you are not 100% satisfied. Are you finding that you don’t have enough volume? |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 08/06/21 at 05:53:39  click on image to see full size Hehe... so tonight I'm seeing how hot I can get it. Literally. To that effect I switched to the Corner Horns and put a ZROCK2 in front of it... and turned it ALL THE WAY UP. Have never done that before. Was fully expecting it to completely crap on itself, but the thought "what if someone at the fest turned this thing all the way up" and then it was time to just see what WOULD happen. So I turned the ZROCK2 all the way up, shoved about 6 volts up it's ass with a ZBIT and turned the amplifier all the way up. I had to run out of the room and go and get a witness. No shit. I really did. God, I can't wait until I get time to make some videos... this would have been a good one. The bass is so F'IN tight with a ZROCK2 trying to drive it into the wall and it just won't crash. I'm so glad I stuck with 0.022uf Miflex caps instead of going larger. Now I'm almost afraid to listen to this amp on my ZF15L Zen Master Series 100dB open baffles... I might not ever be able to come back down, and be endlessly stuck outside my body. Could be dangerous. Leave it for later. The bass that came out of these speakers (my corner horns) https://youtu.be/WvP2f-Ls4ws -- the video is of the corner horns. What I heard tonight made that sound silly. I've never heard 20 watts do that in my lifetime, it was just insane. There would be no way to record that on the phone I use for most of the videos. It was 10dB louder than the phone can handle. We would have to use the hi-res recorder, and I think we will. I'll promise you this... if you were here, and heard and felt what we just experienced there is no way you would believe it came from two 6 inch drivers on 20 watts without any subwoofers. NO ONE would believe it. Wow, that was a special treat... didn't see that one coming! I guess that means the amp is done. We'll start building them next week. This thing rocks every category. Especially the imaging and liquidity. Damn it. Now I'm going to have to see if I can make the JR do it. So tonight after listening exclusively to the Tube Tots, which are tiny speakers with dual 4 inch drivers, I went to the corner horns 36 times their size and contrast was so great I just about shit myself. Also hearing the TORII MK5 make the corner horns sound great like the TORII JR and ZMA was something I can't really put words to. Hehe, these two items just didn't get along. The Torii MK1, 2, 3, 4 all hated these speakers. For almost 20 years it has annoyed me because it sounded so good in every way except a hint of bass bloat with these horns. My first "I'll Fix YOU" was the ZMA. And boy did that fix it. My second "I'll Fix YOU" was the TORII JR. And that fixed it equally well at half the cost. This is my Third and final... problem solved and check mate. A little behind the scenes soap opera for you. If I was in my 30's right now this would make me run out in the garage and build a 9 foot high pair of corner horns and put an F15 driver in each one. I've never wanted to hear that more than I do right now, and with a ZROCK2 all the way up playing electronic bass music. If you can imagine a 9 foot heigh pair of these horns, with a footprint of about 4.5 feet x 4.5 feet glued into the corners of your large room.... I know I would have done this then, because on a similarly inspired urge I built a concrete bass horn around my furnace in a 150 year old basement. With a single 12 inch driver and 20 watts I put 22 cracks in the basement concrete glaze coat over the bricks. A retarded girl walking in the park saw me stop at the lights with a load of particle board in my old pickup truck. I accidentally put it in granny gear which you never do with any real horsepower and it had a really hot 302 Cleveland small block in it. Light turned green I let out the clutch to go and the truck shot forward and the 10 sheets of particle board was still setting motionless in the air behind the truck were it was parked for the light. When like a cartoon it realized there is gravity it crashed to ground and shattered like glass all over the intersection. To make matters worse I had an entire pallet of concrete bags on top of it that were also now neatly stacked on the pallet in the middle of the intersection on top of the splattered particle board. No shit. It was surreal. She helped me put everything back in my truck while 4 men stood and watched us from the gas station across the street. I'll never forget her. Anyway, many from the early DECFEST days will remember that horn. You would walk inside it. And since we're making a reference to age here, you should know that before I went to bed that night even after the disaster on the way home, the horn was completed and concrete was curing. If that happened now, it's doubtful that anything would have happened until the next day at best... why is that? You know an amp is good when it makes you want get crazy again : ) Steve |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 08/06/21 at 06:30:16 I don't know what I'm listening to right now, but it feels like a freight train is driving through my chest and the whole building is on the verge of coming loose. Pretty damn good for a concrete slab which is what this room is built on. Usually this kind of earthquake low bass sensation comes from a suspended wood floor of no less than 16 feet x 16 feet with no supports in the center of the floor. Well, what do you know I guess it's fun with bass night here at Decware using a pair of 6 inch full-range drivers. I wish Leo from Lii Audio were here to hear this. This is usually an experience that requires the Imperial Bass Horns with 15 inch drivers (28 cubic feet per cabinet) But it is easily happening tonight, and I mean EASILY happening without compression, stress, bloat, overshoot, just rendering the recording with 16dB more bass weight than normal. Woohoo. This amp loves the punishment. And with simple inexpensive Electroharmonix EL34's it sounds spectacular. I haven't tried any really 'good' tubes in it yet, because this is far more telling. And just proof that you don't need exotic tubes to get it to levitate. Steve |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by piezoman on 08/06/21 at 10:38:50 Hey Steve, great to hear the bass dept is a wrap! My Omega single drivers are 6.5", so about the same size. Sounds like I can sell the Deephemp 8 sub. Nice. My bass and volume needs will finally be addressed. RESERVE POWER. With the Taboo MK 4 sounding great and fully fleshed on many recordings [acoustic guitar, vocals, jazz, classical chamber] and somewhat thin on too many others, even with the zrock2-25th [anything rock oriented, classical symphony], it is plain too weak at 3.2 watts. No way around that without RESERVE POWER. So selling it and replacing with this creation should solve those woes. And yes, my speakers are plenty efficient at 95db. Steve, can't wait to hear what you think of the overall performance top to bottom with your 25th A mod :-) Brad |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Kirk on 08/06/21 at 11:22:39 Hey Geno. I was stunned by what the UFO2 did to my original Forte IIIs. I was further blown away by what the Khorns brought. But I can't help myself. Could the sound get even better with a ZMA or Torii? |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Geno on 08/06/21 at 12:52:54 Kirk, That is a valid question - and one I hope Steve will comment on. Steve, for me, the real question would be, how would this amp compare to others in the stable, in the 70db - 85db range? I know it’s got to be pretty cool to hear this setup at max levels, but I almost never listen over 85db anymore. I’m much more interested in mid level volume quality. So, my question is, for us Geritol consuming folks, does this new setup have much better depth, density, etc., at mid volumes, than the lower watt amps in the stable? |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 08/07/21 at 05:49:29 Quote:
Actually, the bass is tighter than the TORII MK4 and even a touch tighter than the TORII JR, which means that on a small driver there is likely to be less bass until you turn it up enough to move the cone around. This suggests that you will need the sub even more or simply play your music a lot louder. The difference between the corner horn enclosure and the ported box for the 6.5" Omega is like the difference between a push mower and a riding tractor. That has to be considered. No-one has speakers like the corner horns so similar bass can't be expected. Point is, the amplifier has no more or less bass than a Zen Triode 2.3 watt amp or any other amp that we make. The only thing the TORII can do in the case of smaller drivers is move them more -- creating a higher SPL which will in turn create more bass by moving more air. It would better if you don't have a corner horn to own a 15 inch driver like the 100dB F15 by Lii Audio, where the cone doesn't even move enough to notice -- but the surface area adds up to the same amount of air being moved as a smaller driver when its being throttled. The difference is efficiency and linearity. Also remember where bass is concerned in your listening room, often it's not so much the standing waves in the room as it is the peaks in the mid and high frequency response that is at fault. There are two ways to have more bass, turn the bass up or turn the treble down. If your room is canceling the bass, than turning the bass up will only make the problem worse. Every room can be warmed up with absorbing surfaces to turn the highs down, so that is usually the best place to start when you want more bass. These very corner horns that rang my bell last night were in a room once with 19dB of midrange and treble peaks and we could hear ZERO bass. Adding a sub in that situation would have only created mud, confusion and fatigue. There are a lot of bandaids for this hobby that bring good money. Try not to use or need any of them. Take your rooms more seriously whenever possible. If a good room is out of the question, consider a pair of decent headphones on one our our headphone amps. It won't sound like the headphones you've decided is not your thing. It will be your thing when it sounds like speakers in a perfect room, or puts you up on stage with the band... After enough of that, when you listen to speakers in your room, you will start to demand more of your room. Notice I said of your room. Virtually most audiophiles will demand more of their speakers with no consideration of the room. Waste of time. Don't get too exited... even with a good room, and great gear it is easy to have bad sound. It happened to me just this past week in my shop due to 4 bad speaker connections and the wrong wire. Getting everything right only happens when you give equal attention to each part no matter how small or large your perception of it is. A single connection is as important as your end game DAC, if not more. Your room is more important than any single component in it.  As you can see I'm not so much answering your post, but using it as I often do as an opportunity to teach the people who read but don't post. Everything we write here is indexed on Google thanks to a clever piece of code we came up several years ago, so you would be stunned how many people from the internet read this stuff. Steve |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 08/07/21 at 05:59:15 Quote:
100%. The only amplifiers we make that don't are the 12K 60W mono blocks. Those need to be turned up a bit to open up. Steve |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by CAJames on 08/07/21 at 15:30:35 Quote:
How about another UFO2? If you love the sound of one (IMO) two is even better. I'm using a pair of UFOs, configured as balanced monoblocks, and they sound fantastic. Just my 2 cents... |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Kirk on 08/07/21 at 17:58:58 Hey CAJames. Not necessarily looking for more watts. I am relatively new to this game and still recovering from the shock and awe of SET+Khorns in my room. I am mad at myself for missing out on this sound for far too long. I am coming off of a solid state amp connected to bookshelf speakers. I should have made this plunge long ago. Can't help but wonder is there still more being left on the table? Would a Torii or ZMA take me to yet another place? (writing this and was just startled by Lindsey Buckingham's guitar on Never Going Back Again wow) |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Dana on 08/07/21 at 18:54:10 I too just discovered the corner horn UFO connection. It is magical |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by CAJames on 08/07/21 at 19:32:11 Hey Kirk, If it really isn't about watts then I would say this (although others are much better equipped to go into detail than me): the higher power push-pull amps are different, but certainly not "better." Some prefer the PP sound while but others of us prefer the SET sound. It think it is fair to say with the right speakers the SETs are the last word in speed and transparency and frequency extension so if that is what you are looking for I don't think you can do better than what you have now, except see below. But there are plenty of threads throughout the forums on those differences. However, there are maybe some other things you can do to get even better performance without switching amps. Did you get your amp with the anniversary mods? If not I would say it is a no-brainer to send it back to Decware for the update. That will absolutely get more out of your K-horns. (Or instead of getting a higher powered Decware amp get the 25th anniversary edition UFO, which would really take it to the max). The other option would be to explore tube rolling. Again there are many threads on this topic and, just like with everything else in audio, you can spend as much $$$ as you want on heritage tubes but many of us have found we can really customize the sound to exactly our liking with just the right tube set. I don't know if this was helpful or just confusing but good luck with your quest. Finding Decware is a great place to start (or finish). |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Tommy Freefall on 08/07/21 at 19:33:56 Kirk, my experience is similar to yours. Wished I had become aware of Decware twenty years ago. I lost a lot of years with inferior hifi systems. If you truly don’t need the extra power, the 25th Annivery Zen Triode might be the preferred upgrade path. IIRC, Steve declared that it is the best amp he has built. I would love to have it, but for my room and speakers, it is not enough wattage, even if I combined two of them. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Geno on 08/07/21 at 20:40:11 Well said, CA. The anniversary mods take it to the next level. I had mine done and could not be happier. Tube rolling will further refine the sound. And quality speaker cable and interconnects bring out the very best the amp has to offer. Everything in the chain matters. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by CAJames on 08/07/21 at 20:54:48 Great point Geno. Decware electronics absolutely rewards your investment in every part on the signal chain: quality front end and spearkers, interconnects, speaker cables, room treatments , power conditioning and even (dare I say it) fuses. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Kirk on 08/07/21 at 21:19:00 Great advice all. Thanks so much. [smiley=icqlite20.png] |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by safebelayer on 08/08/21 at 02:09:19 Steve, In an earlier post within this thread, you noted a possibility of doing a mod to the IV pertaining to the bias resistors...I think. Is that for the benefit of imaging and/or liquidity? Also, the bass response you're getting from the V, is that circuit related? Can this be accomplished in the IV now via a mod? What specific tubes (brand and type) are you using in the V? Thank you |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 08/12/21 at 02:50:57 A bias resistor mod - it is a possibility but I will need more time to be sure it has the same effect as it appears to have in the MK5. If it makes a difference we'll offer it. No time soon however, we will wait until things slow down a bit. So far the testing in the MK5 has been with some inexpensive Chinese tubes which get dark and gassy in a few days, but sound quite good. Then I put ElectroHamonix in it, and they have more top end sizzle and more bass thump. Tonight I compared it to the ZMA to see which amp sounds better. The ZMA sounded better. So I put the particular set of tubes from the ZMA into the MK5 and now it sounds so close I will have go back and forth a bit to figure out if that's actually the case or if was the tubes. The bias meter and switch set up is working so well I am loving it. It's nice to see the total milliamps that the output tubes are drawing at a glance as well as the various combintations. We are starting production on the amp now, hoping that the custom meters arrive before the amps hit QC. If not it is possible to ship with non-colored meters like in the pictures I've posted, so it will be the customers choice to wait or take the more generic meter when that time comes. My intension is to ship it with Russian EL34 or KT66, perhaps either. Will depend on supply. Steve |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by piezoman on 08/12/21 at 03:09:01 Steve, That's all really great news. I look forward to your final determination and more detail on what you're hearing between the ZMA and Torii MK 5. Brad |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 08/12/21 at 05:00:55 By having both amps on for the same number of hours, and by using the same tubes in both I got a fair comparison between the two, except it wasn't a fair comparison because the ZMA has many hundreds of hours on it and the MK 5 is just passing about 200. More importantly the ZMA has anniversary mods, and the MK5 does not. The ZMA with anniversary mods is in almost a different league. So we will have to wait until we have one with anniversary mods and burned-in to make a second comparison. My guess is in the final analysis the ZMA will always win because it's power supply design is direct drive with almost 10 times the energy storage. It's a joy to listen to on edgy or articulate speakers because it has no edge and leads the way in articulation. The difference between 20 and 40 watts is only 3dB, and the TORII's would be better at driving low impedances while the ZMA would be better with higher impedances so the scale can tilt either way between the two depending on speakers used. Hope that helps. Steve |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 08/12/21 at 05:32:04 We'll you should know I couldn't just let it lie there... right? I put a quad of Genalex KT77's in the TORII MK5 to see what would happen for the guy who wants to spend a bit more than an EL34, and dammit now to be 100% sure the ZMA is actually better I have to compare one more time... The piano notes are harder and more lifelike with these tubes and the bass is more refined, flatter. Really nice sounding tubes in this amp which is no surprise. Honest to God I couldn't tell you which amp will win with it's own favorite tube compliments in the end once they are both anniversary modded. The fact that this amp is cathode biased and has better output transformers means it is not impossible to beat the ZMA, but the ZMA power supply is so over the top that even against all that it may well still win. Ahh, amp wars. Brings back memories. It's how Decware was started. No, actually it was the process that built the confidence to start Decware. Pitting one amp against the other and pulling out all the stops for each trying to be the best sounding. It's how the Zen amp was developed. Four years of taking two Zen amps and modifying each in a never ending battle against each other. That is btw the secret. Build an amp. Like it. See if you can build another just like it, that sounds just like it. See if you can do it a 3rd time. This proves the layout. Then take one and put it in service in the garage and take the other two and listen to them to be certain they are identical. Once this has been confirmed after months of burn-in, you take one and start to mess with it in an attempt to make it sound better than the other one. If you succeed and it stays that way for a month or two, then it becomes the new champion. You now take the looser, and see if you can refine it in such a way as to beat the present champion. It's a lot of fun and immensely enlightening. Like I said, this went on for almost four years before the first one was actually sold and then as we got past the first 25 amps, customer feedback refined it to another revision and another and another and another and another. Any time you are the creator of two amps and are listening to them one against the other in the center of your universe with all your tools and toys and parts inventory only seconds away from the listening chair... wonderful things can happen. And interestingly in this entire process a computer or calculator is never used or needed because it is always faster to just solder-in and listen to 8 different value resistors than it is to model their effect on the circuit. Trust your ears. My guess is most spice models go through several revisions, at least 2 or more. In that four years I went through 111 different variations of the same amp via amp wars model. All the while I had the original in the garage to bring back in for reference to see where I have taken things. People think it's about parts, or about circuit superiority, or power, or whatever, but in reality it's about how many different revisions did you actually build and listen to in a treated listening room on no less than 10 pair of reference speakers. If you build an amp with only one pair of speakers you will be sadly disappointed when you take it to your friends house and it sounds like crap... So as I listen tonight to the non-anniversary modded TORII MK5 with different output tubes against the ZMA is the MK5 has more presence and is a bolder sound. The ZMA is more polished and refined. I don't think Anniversary Mods are going to reverse this behavior. If anything it should push it harder in the other direction. That could well make the UFO transformers suddenly take things to a more lucid level making this amp sound more real. I have to say the Russian interpretation of the British sound in this KT77 is really good. More weight and depth, but still that wonderfully flat and honest take on things. Very nice. I can see this is going to become an ideal tube rolling amp. I sounds great on KT88's too and now curiosity is going to kill the cat... I think KT77's will be the upgrade tube for this amp in the shopping cart if we can keep them in stock. This is a good example of one of the advantages of a cathode bias amps... one of the many advantages so long as you can live with lower power. A ZMA can't use the KT77 because it bias too cold for the window I set in that amp. Fixed bias amps have windows that limit the tube choices to protect the user from melting tube plates by setting the bias too high. A Cathode bias amp is self regulating so the KT77 in the TORII MK5 bias up to 50 mills where it is happy. In the ZMA it only would adjust up to 30 mills. And of course on 100dB speakers like the ZF15L Zen Master Series Baffles I am listening to tonight, there is zero difference in perceived power between the two amplifiers at any volume I could possibly stand to listen to. Steve |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Archie on 08/12/21 at 06:43:14 What tubes are you running in the ZMA? I suspect KT66s. Have you ever tried 7027As? |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 08/12/21 at 06:53:46 N.O.S. 7027 are my favorite. Extreme resolution and dynamics beyond belief. I was running KT88 in the ZMA and then TORII MK5 for the comparisons. I have my ZMA modified to bias the KT88 at 60 mills. Of course I haven't tried them yet in a MK5. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Archie on 08/12/21 at 16:45:23 I can't afford NOS 7027As but the Tungsol version seems nice. I'd love to hear your impressions of that tube. It's not expensive and could easily be supplied if so desired. I bias mine at 64 ma. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by piezoman on 08/21/21 at 04:48:04 Steve, Now that you have the Holo May DAC, with its revelations do you expect to make any more changes to the MK V down the production line? Also, about when do you anticipate the MK V be officially announced and the main website updated? Brad |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by GroovySauce on 09/10/21 at 12:17:07 Steve, I ordered a pair of GL KT77's a few days before I read you really enjoyed the KT77's and are considering offering them as a premium option. I've had 2 quads with a bad tube in a month. First 1 tube went bad in 3 weeks. Second quad from a different seller 1 tube went bad in 2 days. Both cases the tube started to rattle, the tube rattle then was transmitted through one channel. Is this common with the GL KT77's or a string of bad luck? I've never had an issue like this with the KT66's, The KT77's do sound much better with my setup. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by yostjacob on 10/12/21 at 15:05:51 Quote:
Ha! Back when I did field work. My basic project was 5 days. The first day was introductions and physical work. The 2nd and 3rd day, was the configuration work that I had carefully planned the week before. The 5th day I did all of my customer turn over work. But the 4th day.... The 4th day is what I called frown at it day. There will be something, something, that surprises you. And it had to get solved the 4th day. Maybe the 4th day ran all way to the 5th day. But it had to get solved. Maybe i had to completely start over. Maybe the manufacturer had a "feature" I had to work around while on site with the customer looking at me. Its that day when we earn our pay. Good luck soldier. I look forward to the one you make for me. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Dr3wman on 10/14/21 at 22:37:51 In terms of the silkscreen.... is there an example of what that might look like? The photos of the current MKV.......is that with, or without? I am not sure if it was already mentioned. I have an MKV on order and am trying to decided which direction I want to go when I reach out to Sarah. Thank you! |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by piezoman on 10/15/21 at 00:46:04 Dr3wman, see Steve's post #60 on page 2 of this thread. That is the silkscreened top. I too have a Torii MK 5 on order, but opted for the non silkscreened top. The tech simply does the build with the top upside down, with the silkscreened side facing downward. Brad |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Dr3wman on 10/15/21 at 00:52:23 Brad - Thanks very much. I thought that was what Steve may have meant, but wanted to make sure I wasn't misreading/misinterpreting. Andrew |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by will on 10/15/21 at 02:45:46 Having master gain attenuators, I don't have experience with right and left gain knobs. And I might prefer the volume pot screens a little subtler, but I imagine I might really like the functionality for helping to set each side's gains to match when doing volume changes, which I do frequently... or to easily maintain differences of a notch or whatever if R/L balancing for tubes or room ever came up. So I guess if I were ordering one, I might follow Steve's alternative thought, and try to find a knob that covers most of it, but leaves at least the number marks for reference. It might take a few experiments to find one that calms the look nicely while looking like it was meant to be there.... part of the design, but I bet this is possible. Some thoughts anyway. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by yostjacob on 10/15/21 at 17:21:50 My plan is to use the stepped attenuators and count the clicks. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 10/31/21 at 03:12:34 The TORII MK5 Owners Manual is here: https://www.decware.com/newsite/TORIIMK5.pdf  |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Dr3wman on 10/31/21 at 03:26:41 Gorgeous! Stellar work, I can’t wait for my mine to arrive. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Geno on 10/31/21 at 03:58:31 Beautiful Steve! Is the white, rope looking, speaker cable the new stuff you’ve been working on? |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Tommy Freefall on 10/31/21 at 04:01:07 What a beast! |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by piezoman on 10/31/21 at 04:13:39 Quote:
Same here! Gonna be late summer next year |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Dr3wman on 10/31/21 at 04:16:41 Me too!! Haha, I’m in the 550’s. |
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Title: Re: New Torii MK V Post by Steve Deckert on 11/01/21 at 01:45:45 Quote:
It is the wire I am trying to beat ZSTYX with. I'll start a thread on it when I have useful information. Steve |
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