So I’m in the market for a new rack and it came down to two products based on my aesthetic and price range.

Butcher Block Acoustics 3 tier rigid rack.

Timbernations round posts stack rack.

I chose the latter because of two reasons:

At approx. the same price, Timbernation is offering a 2” inch walnut shelf vs. BBA’s 1.5“

AND

Each shelf is individually isolated by brass spikes. I’ve heard that brass is the best material for this application.  The rigid rack only has spikes at the bottom shelf.

However, there is a difference in understanding between the two companies on how isolation/coupling works.

Butcher Block is saying that their spikes offer coupling—which means that the vibrations from the entire shelf are being drained to my carpeted floor.

Timbernation is saying that each shelf provides isolation from the adjacent shelf with minimal contact area.  In other words, one shelf does not add to the vibrations of it’s sister shelf.

I think both are right but perhaps the Timbernation provides isolation and coupling at the same time.  The individual shelf’s are isolated from each other, but at the end of the day, whatever vibrational energy is being collected, is also being drained away with coupling to the carpet.

Thoughts?

Here are pictures of both for illustration:

Note that the first picture is of a sample Timbernation rack, which doesn’t have the bottom spikes for illustration, but mine will.

Hmm…noted. I might end up trying it both ways. With or without spikes on the bottom shelf.  I realize that removing spikes does not automatically mean I’ve decoupled it—-will look in to solutions that actively decouple it.  I’ll ask Timbernation if they provide options similar to BBA…where you can use either spikes (for coupling) or Neoprene pads (for isolation).

Thanks Will. I do plan to use isolation pucks or platforms underneath components on the future rack. I will look in to your solution as well.  

That said, I’m more intrigued about the rack itself.  I think there is something to be said about the individual shelfs being isolated from each other using minimal contact area with those brass spikes—so one shelf doesn’t transfer vibrational energy to another shelf and it all being drained at the bottom shelf.  My reading of concrete slabs suggest that it’s dense and does not transfer much vibrational energy on to furniture compared say to a suspended wooden floor.  So my thought process is that it might be beneficial to couple with the floor (in my case), to drain vibration away from the rack and at the same time, minimize the contact area for any external energy to get in to the rack.  I’ve also written to Timbernation to gauge what options they provide if someone wants to docouple vs. couple.

I'm a fan of rigid rack with isolation for the components. I use Butcher Block Acoustic platforms. My brother has a pair of Butcher Block Acoustic Speaker Stands. High quality stuff.

The Timbernation look well made and I like the aesthetics.

If I had unlimited budget I would go with a rack that isolates each shelf. Currently I have 3" butcher block on the floor. Between the BB and floor I'm testing different styles of footers. Will, I ordered 2 sets of the footers you linked, going to try them between the floor and BB.

"draining away vibrations" This is way way above my pay grade! I don't understand how a spike can drain or eliminate vibrations from the non pointy end. In a laboratory environment and with the right conditions I'm guessing there is a measurable result.

In my experiments, decoupling and isolation done well is better than coupled at the speaker to floor and component to shelf. As I stated earlier shelf, rack and platform to floor I'm experimenting with.

Balls in cups I'm note sure how to classify those products.

Here is an interesting phenomenon. Adding more and more isolation seems additive, until you hit the turning point then it's exponential.

When I first tried Wave Kinetics A10-U8 (attenuate) I was really impressed with the first set. I slowly added more, each additional set was a nice improvement. When the final component had a set under it... YAHOO! Shocking how much of an improvement it was.

There is the issue of component self vibration. Not only do you want to attenuate this you also want to handle the airborne vibrations and the vibrations coming from the shelf to the component. There is also the vibrations coming from the cables attached to the component. So if your self is isolated the shelf itself will be picking up vibrations and sending them to the components. On a concrete slab get a ridged rack and spike it to the floor making sure it's level and doesn't rock. Then focus on isolating each component over time. Once that is all taken care of try isolating the rack from the floor.

Decoupling or isolation done poorly can be really bad. An example is the footers made with springs with nothing to stop the springs vibrating. Townshend uses springs and a dampening material for the springs. I would like to try a set, I'm not going to spend my money on them as my experience/intuition says that other approaches are more effective.

Concrete does vibrate! It transfers a lot of energy too. It is a lot better than a suspended wooden floor though.

I also used Herbies and migrated away from them—as a side note I really like the Herbies grungebuster TT mat—keeping them only in a few less critical places.

Kamran,

I have a Timbernation rack built by Chris himself way back in 2008. It's roughly equivalent to what they now call their Standard Rack, very similar to R31 on this page:

https://www.timbernation.com/customer-pics-praise/racks

So no isolation between the shelves, but I do have spikes as I'm in the basement with carpet over a concrete slab. I have Zu Druid Vs maybe 4 feet from the rack and a Zu Mini Method sub that sits 18" from the rack, and I can turn vinyl up to earsplitting volumes with no feedback whatsoever.

I have no experience with racks with individually spiked shelves, but it makes me wonder if it's overkill. Definitely easier to move around and rearrange though; my one piece (unless disassembled) rack is one heavy beast!

Timbernation makes really nice stuff. My rack has been all over the country with me, and is about to move again in June. Highly recommended.

David

Kamran,

Draining away vibrations? In this universe mass rules! Setting a heavy piece of furniture on a much heavier larger solid mass that is exposed to sound pressure waves...guess what?

Will's floor is a great sink hole(drain). No solid mass with individual clay bricks nesting in sand.

Your floor is a solid large mass that is going to vibrate and that vibration will transfer to a rack pinned to it. The rack will inturn become a spout not a drain, I think.

When my system was decoupled from the concrete floor there was a huge improvement. A veil was removed. Intelligibility improved.

I like GS's idea of baby steps.

Will has experimented a lot to customize to his taste.
You will to. Good luck 👍

John

Kamran,

It seems you cannot go wrong with either brand.

Sounds like you are going with the timber nation the plus side if you go with the modular option is that if you find yourself in a position where you can move all you equipment to a lower plane the rack becomes platforms.

This is a paragraph from the article you referenced Kamran:

Speakers, the component responsible for producing the vibrations we seek to quell, require careful placement techniques to ensure the best performance and least interference. Spikes are certainly the popular way to couple loudspeakers speakers. These devices can be particularly effective when the speakers are to be placed on a concrete slab foundation. Here, the great mass of the concrete slab serves as an effective "sink" for the vibrations created by the motion of the loudspeaker enclosure. Hard-coupling speakers (using spikes) to a suspended wood floor, however, can, in some cases cause problems. The floor can act as a kind of "sounding-board," set into resonance by the vibrations of the speaker. Some listeners find decoupling the speakers from the floor improves performance under these conditions. For many, Stillpoints offer the best of both worlds, providing the advantages of hard coupling (spikes) with decoupling to reduce vibration transmission.

I am curious on what you got out of it? Not to put you on the spot. Just hopefully a lead into a good conversation.

John

John,

They do mention that the concrete floor acts as a sink, no? Also in the article:

Coupling devices tightly marry the component to the shelf. They include cones, spikes, and the like.  Spikes and cones, by decreasing the contact area with the support, (theoretically) act as a mechanical diode - allowing vibration to travel away from the component while limiting the return path. New materials now available (composite, ceramic, carbon fiber) seem to have improved cone performance over metal cones of the past.

That said, I’m in your debt by continuing to raise this assumption of drainage since I continue to research this topic and today found something that rocked my world:

https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/speaker-spike-misconceptions/

It’s written by Norman Varney who has a great pedigree as an acoustician and his company’s isolation product “EVP” is very highly regarded. I listened to his tech talk on the New Record Day YouTube channel a couple months ago and had filed it away for future use. I’ve seen their products being praised and put in the same excellent category as Townshend.

I’ve written to Norman. Let’s see if he responds…

My brother has 2 products from AV Room Service. EVP Platforms for his speakers and CVP (Cable Vibration Protectors) They do seem to work well.

My room is on a concrete slab, no idea how thick. Glued synthetic flooring. When I put Wave Kinetic footers under my speakers the sound took a big step in a positive direction. The mid range and highs became much more focused and hang in the air more naturally. More bass texture. I also notice a lot less vibration through the ground sensed via my feet.

There are train tracks 1.5 miles from my home. I can feel the train though the dirt.

Something that I've always found fascinating and unnerving at times is how much structures vibrate and move. Specifically tall buildings and bridges. Bridges when walking or in a stopped car you can feel the bridge bouncing. Tall buildings sway a lot! I think I would go crazy if I lived in a high rise.

Everything is constantly vibrating. Unwanted vibrations show up as distortion in audio systems. Ever flick a cable from your TT to phono stage? you can hear it. Isolating cables from the ground, rack or any other surface does add up to less distortion.

The wires in our homes are vibrating. That vibration can be transferred though the power cables into our components. Adding isolation to power conditioners, LPS and external power supplies does make an audible difference.

Electricity vibrates as it goes though our components. The component self vibration can pass via cables to other components.

Attenuating unwanted vibrations is a worthy pursuit.

How crazy do you want to get is up to you.

Low hanging fruit in my experience is a ridged rack and isolation for speakers and components.

The spikes on the Timbernation rack will couple it to the floor, which also vibrates.Since it's concrete it won't "sing along" and color the music as noticeably as a suspended wood floor. I've isolated all of my tube gear on individual platforms since back in the 90s.It's not really possible to totally eliminate vibrations, but it's possible to tune them to your liking. I've experimented with spikes,roller balls,ceramic, sorbathane,air platforms, etc.I don't believe they are sold any longer but my preference is sand platforms. They're easy to make though. Once I filled four 3" tall storage jars with sand and used them as feet which did a great job, but looked ridiculous.
Anyways, IMHO you made an excellent choice and you can always fine tune later on.Can't remember where I read it,but there was an article about the different types of wooden floors in concert halls and how the bass instruments that couple to the floor all tune together using the resonance of the particular floor. Interesting stuff.

Thanks Dogma. I really appreciate your vote of confidence.  

Norman did reply but he also has an angle to sell his EVPs, so there is that.
See his response below:

“I hope my answer will make it very easy for you to select a rack. As you now know, coupling is an effective conduit for vibrations, and is a two-way street. Couplers are not “mechanical diodes”. In addition, concentrating the load to a fine point will, in general, make the transfer even more efficient.

EVPs don’t care what is above or below them- 95% of the vibrations that enter their core is converted to heat. You could have an Ikea rack or some crazy expensive rack, and with EVPs, your equipment will perform exactly the same.

The best solution is to decouple each component from its resting platform. The most cost-effective would be to isolate the entire rack. These would likely need to be custom EVPs, which we do all the time. Let me know if you need more details.”

Well, I was already planning to isolate each component on the shelf anyways so that takes care of that.  If I really wanted to isolate the rack, I could also look in to the following:

https://herbiesaudiolab.com/collections/loudspeaker-rack-decoupling-and-isolatio...
n/products/cone-spike-decoupling-glider?variant=12645103403063

They have excellent reviews and for my rack and thick carpet, would probably need the giant over the standard.  Turns out, they are even recommended by Jim Smith, who penned the following interesting piece:

https://www.psaudio.com/copper/article/spiking-your-speakers-whats-the-point/

The learning continues…

Thx Brad.  My Open Baffles are also resting directly on the carpet and pad.  That said, I would like to experiment with either partially or fully decoupling them in the future.

I used to use the same Ingress Engineering bearing supports that Will did/does, then moved to VooDoo Cable Iso-Pods for an improvement, then moved to Iso-Acoustics speaker stands.

The stands completely changed the sound of the speakers and I had to tune and tweak but as a result I got better sound staging than I had before, especially in depth. (My room setup doesn't really favor soundstage by necessity, so the improvement is welcome).

My components are on a Samson Ver. 3 rack from Mapleshade, and on PS Audio PowerBasses and with VooDoo Cable Iso-Pods on top of the Powerbases--lots of isolation. Three also have 4" maple platforms under the PowerBases. It's been a fun adventure tuning the system this way.

Well, we're all different. The way I have them set up they are hardly visible under the HR-1, and after speaker placement and system tuning the sound is best yet, so they stay. To my ears and in my system I definitely can say I hear the difference they make. I use them at the lowest setting and in this direction.



In my really large space downstairs wtth the audio/video system I have Herbie's Audio Lab IsoCups with moss green balls under the HR-1. They work very well with four each under each speaker.

I just ordered these to place in my decoupling tool kit:

uxcell Silicone Rubber O-Ring Assortment Kit 225 Pieces 15 Sizes Metric VMQ Sealing Gasket Set, Red https://a.co/d/0jWfwzO

These o-rings are made of silicone rubber and have a shore hardness of 50a as compared to nitrile's 70a.

John

Ouch! I did like the first stand you ordered and GroovySauce's idea of using the shelfs as a foundation pinned to concrete. Maybe, if one shelf could be ordered and used for that purpose. Just some random thoughts.

I tried the silicone o-rings in place of the nitrile as a decoupler on the speakers. Lasted only on a couple vinyl LP plays. Vocals became a bit sibilent and smeared. Cymbals lost detail. The silicone ones will work better on lighter items.

John

Too tired to type but I will leave you with this:

Hi all. Talk about timely…I am having some harmonics issue in my system and am working on tracking it down. My current favourite is a bad tube in my pre amplifier. I am in line, in a couple of months, for a Sarah 300b. So
I have been working hard to get some other things in place in my system See the T6 chat. I added the ZFOCUS speaker cables to my T6 and there was a noticeable improvement in my system in my room. More transparent, better across the range. I have a sub woofer in my system, a Rel T5i, and I can feel the vibrations lightly through the floor so I thought I would try some isoACOUSTICS Gaia Titan speaker feet isolators. Also a noticeable improvement. The combination of both has made, to me, a big difference. Life is about finding a solution that works and I wanted to have the Sarah and my turntable (my dads) on round table that I chose from my parents house. Unfortunately it looks great but lacks real weight and heft. The isoACOUSTIC feet have been so good I am considering some of their other feet that you put under Amps turntables etc to help create better isolation. Reading the thread in this is topic it’s complex and it appears about finding a solution that works for you in your room. Fingers crossed.

Thanks Nigel!  It indeed was such a perfect fit that I didn’t even have to move the subs out.  Probably saved $1000 by going with BBA vs. Timbernation and I am very happy with the way it looks.  And those 1.5” maple blocks are heavy.  My back was aching after the installation and the body still feels like when you workout intensely after not going to the gym for a long time.

Based on BBA’s recommendation (when he learned how anal I was about decoupling) I bought Herbies’ Giant Giant Stud Gliders to decouple the entire rack from the floor.

https://herbiesaudiolab.com/products/threaded-stud-glider

Very positively reviewed and highly recommended by Jim Smith, so I was like what the heck.  They were easily threaded in to the M6 Brass threads of the Walnut legs of the BBA rack.  And they effortless glided, allowing me to place such a heavy rack in the middle without any problem.

I also got a walnut platform from BBA for my streamer with ISO-Bands further isolating the streamer from the rack.

So the set up was done by midnight Saturday, warmed up the tubes for 2 hrs and had a 3 hr listening session from 2 to 5 am (my significant other was at her moms). I honestly was not expecting a difference but I was profoundly awed by the increased clarity and details, more satisfying leading edges (Drums and piano sounded so so good), a subtle increase in soundstage and dimensionality, and finally, an increased sense of note decay—I didn’t move for those 3 hours.

Now, if you told me that I was just delirious after a late night listening session, I would have believed you too.

So I completed another 1 hr session last night (respectable hours this time) and the difference is unmistakeable. Vibration control is a real thing.  

I am glad I got these 4 hours to isolate (no pun intended) the impact of decoupling as I am introducing new items to the rig today and the next couple of days.  Stay tuned….

Kamran, So happy it brought you such a good step up in enjoyment!

You're waiting on the AVRS isolation footers correct? I've found that isolation is sort of linear improvement until you get everything isolated, then it takes a big jump.

I have some of the older AVRS versions that look like the simpler feet now, the higher density two inch ones, four for under the Torii to start. I thought they were impressive sounding feet. But at that time, I apparently ended up liking others better. I am thinking I recall they were quite neutral, extended, and resolving, but perhaps just a little over damped or perhaps a little dark for the sound I wanted at the time? Sorry I don't recall exactly why, I just know the AVRS feet did not stay under my main components after a while back then, and now 3 are used under my little 3000 Micro sub.

My Torii now has 3 Synergistic Research MIG 3s, the Gustard X20Pro DAC, 3 older SR MIGs... For the CSP3, I am using one of Archie's specifically chosen springs sandwiched between MDF platform pieces, with some careful additional damping tuning adjustments I made.... Mad Scientist cast feet with steel and ceramic ball tops under the Tranquility NOS DAC... some of those Chinese made aluminum feet with three balls between aluminum pieces (the ones that look more like VooDoo isopods), with some ceramic and some steel balls along with having tuned the damping materials of the feet for under the PSAudio P5... A few other variations of the smaller diameter Chinese made aluminum feet with balls and damping to tastes under my Singxer SU-1, ZRock2+, and ZBIT. Under the 2012 Mac Mini are a Soundcoat pad glued to the computer bottom, the size of its removable base, and 3 Herbie's old school Iso-Cups tuned with balls I preferred.

Between shelves and supports I use a combination of mostly air the shelves not touching the side supports and minimal "feet" of small cut pieces of Herbies' thicker Grungbuster pads glued to cut pieces of Soundcoat damping material. I did not like either of these much alone, but together thought they were pretty real.

Not to say this is the way to go, but I find I like having a number of sort of decent choices to occasionally mix and match for sound improvements since everything effects the sound differently, and as a system changes, playing with moving feet around can be revelatory. Right now none of these are sticking out as problems, the system sounding really good in vibration management and all else. And having different sonic characters of relatively neutral and transparent foot solutions for fine tuning components, is pretty nice to me. But I am also one who prefers a variety of good sounding power cables for the same reasons over having a "loom," where some others seem to like "looms." Like cables, feet can add up pretty fast, and I need a lot of cables and feet in my system, so always a work in progress. But all considered, I am pretty happy with this selection for now!

Your welcome Kamran. Good to hear it worked out in a positive manner.

I'll be easy on you

Cheers!

John

I'm using these from Amazon under my subwoofers.  The bass became a lot tighter.

Dana,
I too am using a similar product under my power amp. I do this because the amp has to rest on top of my sub! Yikes. Fortunately, I do not always use the sub. Anyway, these are pretty cool when you consider that the spring not only moves in the vertical plane, but to a lesser degree in the horizontal plane as well.
I use the Hudson Hi-Fi silicone feet under most other equipment.

i bought a box of 100 and put them under everything.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-VPE-200-E-V-A-Anti-Vibration-Pad-2-x-2-x-7-8...



A little more info on the subject
https://youtu.be/UYMbi7v2pNU