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300b - keeping it real (Read 4330 times)
Matchstikman
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300b - keeping it real
01/20/23 at 17:28:12
 
Happy new year, everybody.

Okay, I've been drooling over the 300b SET since it was mentioned, and before for that, for years and years over a Cary 300b amp.

However, over the years I've owned several Decware SETs.  They all had magic but for whatever reason never completely satisfied what I hungered for.  I switched from an SET to a PP setup which provided that girth and weight that I just couldn't get from the SET.  Maybe I never setup the SET correctly.  I play guitar with a group of guys and the PP setup gets closer to what I hear in the garage than the SET ever did.

My current setup if fairly respectable, solid mid-fi, and it gets close to perfect, sometimes.  I repeat, sometimes, depending on the source CD.

So, I have the Decware 300b itch.  However, could this be 300b itch turn into insanity for me: doing the same SET thing, again, and again, expecting different results?

Or, is that what I've been wanted for all these years; that SET magic with some PP weight and girth and all those audio calories?

Thoughts?
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Lon
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Re: 300b - keeping it real
Reply #1 - 01/20/23 at 17:38:23
 
Jay, my thoughts are that you won't find the muscle and grunt that you lacked before in SET with this 300B amp.

I used to play in bands and I know what you mean about hearing what you hear in the garage. I don't listen to that type of music much any more and I can get it the way that I want it in my system when I do. But I think from our conversations that level possible from the SET amps won't be satisfying for your tastes and needs. I don't think the 300B will offer enough extra power to fulfill that.

The best to answer that is Steve. . . maybe you should make an appointment to talk with him.
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CAJames
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Re: 300b - keeping it real
Reply #2 - 01/20/23 at 17:44:05
 
My two cents is if you're looking for "garage band" sound you aren't going to get any closer to it with a 300B SET amp than you did with the previous SET amps you owned. It is just as much about speakers as it is about power. What kind of speakers do you have/want?

That said we all know how the itch works and you're probably going to scratch it anyway, right?

Realistically if you get 300B amp (in 2 years?) and it isn't for you I don't think you'll have an trouble reselling it. It's just a matter of waiting, and getting the right 300B tubes, and then waiting some more while the tubes break in.
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Matchstikman
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Re: 300b - keeping it real
Reply #3 - 01/20/23 at 18:12:39
 
By "garage sound," I mean live, real sound.

My current setup is a transport into Bel Canto DAC into ZROCK2 into Cary SLI-80 into Cornwall IIIs.  I also have a Rel T9 crossed over as low as possible that never really does much but now and then it comes to life and it does add spots of magic here and there.  I've had this setup for many years and I thought I had it under control until Steve started the 300b thread.

Lon, last weekend I popped on Underground by Thelonious Monk and it was glorious.  You might have dug the sound.  That's one of the times when I think the source and the setup hit is on the nose.  I just wonder if there is a bit more juice to squeeze and if there Sarah is that juice.  I may just have to understand that I'm a PP guy like I am a Gibson guy and not a Fender guy.

Maybe I'm already there and it is just GAS kicking in.  
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Lon
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Re: 300b - keeping it real
Reply #4 - 01/20/23 at 18:19:22
 
Yes, that's a great Monk album. I especially like Jon Hendricks on "In Walked Bud" and this performance of "Ugly Beauty," a great tune.

Honestly I think you're closer to what you want to be hearing now than you would be with the 300B. But a talk with Steve might be the thing.
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Ghostship
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Re: 300b - keeping it real
Reply #5 - 01/20/23 at 19:04:13
 
Have you tried increasing the crossover point of your sub? I know that Klipsch claims a 4db down at 34Khz, but the umph you're missing might be found with your REL crossed at 100 or 120hz with the gain decreased a little if needed. I know REL recommends a higher crossover, and it has worked well for me.
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Earthbound
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Re: 300b - keeping it real
Reply #6 - 01/20/23 at 21:57:31
 
Probably not going to get that punch Matchstikman. It’s the first thing I noticed from my 300b. I also have a push pull, which I think is better for rock and metal. The 300b is better at everything else. I am in the process of adding a sub to add just a bit of that punch.
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Matchstikman
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Re: 300b - keeping it real
Reply #7 - 01/20/23 at 23:17:05
 
I'm getting that the 300b is probably not the amp for me.  However, in Steve's review of the 300b he does play Tool's Chocolate Chip Trip.  How did that song, section, er, whatever you might call that piece of audio, sound?  I know on my setup that this piece of audio sounds amazing through my setup.

Okay, let's go there.

It isn't so much the sources that are recorded well.  It's about the sources that aren't recorded so well.  Does the 300b give life to those?  And, there's the talk about the detail a 300b can add.  What exactly is that detail that this new amp adds?  Is it something that a man in his 60s can even hear?
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Lon
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Re: 300b - keeping it real
Reply #8 - 01/20/23 at 23:25:49
 
You're asking questions most of us cannot answer about this amp! No one has one out in the field yet, and Steve is the only one who has lived with the amp, and even he is just now getting to experience the actual production model, as opposed to his original and the sample model he built. So. . . again I think Steve is your best source of info!

Have you listened to the videos he has made of the amp?  That might tell you "something."
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Steve Deckert
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Re: 300b - keeping it real
Reply #9 - 01/21/23 at 00:59:40
 

When I want to rock out with the amp, or just play master tapes with their huge dynamic range, I use the thick hardwood Zen Master Series Open Baffles (model ZF15L) because I can pressurize the space without clipping the amp.  When you can do that, you may find that SET is the holy grail for rock and metal because it takes the glare out of it. The ZF15L uses a rare 100dB speaker, so this is not the norm. You need at least 15 inch drivers.  In large spaces a pair of Imperial Folded Horns would sound even better still.

Another factor is that an AC heated 300B, like Sarah, is not stone quiet, there is a small amount of hum.  If you get speakers higher than 100dB sensitivity you're going to start to hear it. I choose the AC heated approach because I felt it sounded better, but most 300B amps are DC heated so they might be a better choice if you were going to get into super high efficiencies.





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Lon
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Re: 300b - keeping it real
Reply #10 - 01/21/23 at 01:26:25
 
Jay, have you considered Class D GAN amps? Many are quite excited about them, saying they are the best tech yet. One audio pal moved from big name SS amps to the SEUFO25 and fell in love with that, but he's a classical orchestral fan and found the UFO was straining to reproduce the impact he needed. He moved to these and is letting a family member use the UFO now, and he loves these:

https://classdaudio.com/pair-of-mini-gan-5-monoblock-amplifiers.html

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Tommy Freefall
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Re: 300b - keeping it real
Reply #11 - 01/21/23 at 18:21:49
 
Another Class D GAN amp - highly regarded - are these monos:

https://orchardaudio.com/product/starkrimson_150w_gan_amp/
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Matchstikman
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Re: 300b - keeping it real
Reply #12 - 01/23/23 at 18:17:34
 
I appreciates the suggestions provided; food for thought.

However, I am at the point now where my system is just about set.  For me it is what I have now or a 300b amp.  I've gone through a couple of decades of this, that, and the other and I am happy enough with the other.

Based on what Steve's posted, I don't see myself acquiring those large open-baffle speakers, even though they do sound tempting, no pun intended.

For now, I am going to roll a few tubes on the Cary.  There are several posts online that advise rolling certain tubes to get an improved sound.  Don't get me wrong, my current setup sounds pretty damn good and with the right source, it sounds glorious, but like other audio-type people (I won't say audiophile), I sometimes wonder if there is anything that could be better, at least at my price-point.

I'd like to hear what people say about the Decware 300b and what speakers they use.  Let's see what happens after that.
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Lon
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Re: 300b - keeping it real
Reply #13 - 01/23/23 at 18:28:37
 
Yeah--roll them tubes! I get multiple different amplifier presentations by rolling tubes--there is a ceiling or a floor you hit as far as power and push that is the outer limit of what the amp(s) can do.

I think in a month or two some SEWE300B impressions may hit the forum. Many of us are looking forward that THAT.
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Tony
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Re: 300b - keeping it real
Reply #14 - 01/24/23 at 19:43:00
 
Not sure where to place this listening experience, but this might work.

Last night my neighbor invited me over to hear a 60 lb. 300b amp - my first one. A Berkeley sound engineer built this amp, which could be played in either a 300b mode of operation or switched over to a 2A3 tube. Also, my neighbor received a pair of Decware T-6 speakers just last week. They are gorgeous, and the sound was excellent. I am not big on bass, but I miss it when absent. In her setup with the T-6, it was not enough, and she needs a subwoofer IMO.

We spent a couple of hours listening to her system. I returned home and spent another couple of hours listening to my SEUFO84, and pleased as punch that my smaller amp sounded nearly as good - as best as I could remember running from one place to the next.

I attribute the surprising parity between the two systems to bass and room treatment. My room is extensively treated; her room is not at all. Another factor could be judgment error. It is hard to accurately remember the sound of one system when running between homes. The next experiment is to take my SE84UFO over to her listening room and compare it against the 300b using the T-6 speakers. I would love to take her 300b to my listening room, but the amp's weight prohibits that option.

As a dyed-in-the-wool introvert, not sharing music with another is not an issue. On the other hand, what fun to compare notes with someone at the moment. And, finally, to have the chance to hear a 300b amp.
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Tommy Freefall
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Re: 300b - keeping it real
Reply #15 - 01/24/23 at 20:37:35
 
Tony, it sounds like you might should put in your order for a Decware 300B.
In the meantime, enjoy your current system.
In approximately a couple of years, take delivery of the 300B.
Extensively compare your new 300B to your Decware existing system.
Keep the amp you like the best.
Sell the other one for minimal loss.
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Tony
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Re: 300b - keeping it real
Reply #16 - 01/24/23 at 20:59:29
 
Hi Tommy,

I agree.  I am currently around #1100 on the list.  I am sure Sarah will have a different sound than the 300b unit I heard last night, and there are always tube brands to consider.  The wait will have been long, but I'm enjoying the process.
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CAJames
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Re: 300b - keeping it real
Reply #17 - 01/25/23 at 02:14:10
 
Quote:
Posted by: Tony      Posted on: Today at 11:43:00

Last night my neighbor invited me over to hear a 60 lb. 300b amp - my first one...

...We spent a couple of hours listening to her system. I returned home and spent another couple of hours listening to my SEUFO84, and pleased as punch that my smaller amp sounded nearly as good - as best as I could remember running from one place to the next...


My 300B amp only weighs 40 lbs, but I have pretty nice 300B tubes and exotic 6SN7 variants for the input. And FWIW I like (liked, they are now sold) my UFOs better, although both amps sounded surprisingly similar. The biggest difference for me is the UFOs had a bigger more 3D soundstage, in my relatively funky room. The UFOs had slightly better bass, and slightly better dynamics. The overall tone was remarkable similar, you could say the the UFOs were every bit is warm and liquid as the 300B, or the 300B is as fast and transparent as the UFOs.

Like pretty much everyone else I'm waiting for real world reviews of Sarah (esp. compared to a UFO) but after an initial infatuation with Sarah I'm convinced that UFO25s are the ticket for me for the long run. FWIW.
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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
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Showme
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Re: 300b - keeping it real
Reply #18 - 01/25/23 at 02:57:29
 
Interesting assessment of the two platforms. I have a 300B amp being built and am sure not getting rid of my UFO25, CSP-325 and matching ZP3. Sounds too good to let go of. I can’t even let go of my UFO2. It’s driving a pair of Ziggie’s horns and I forget how good it sounds when I don’t use it for a while.
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Re: 300b - keeping it real
Reply #19 - 01/26/23 at 05:38:11
 
Tony, I think I agree with you about the T-6 speakers & was wondering if your neighbor experienced a marked change in sound after some run in. Mine took some hours to open up. My back basement is a tough room for the Had 6FLV-v, T-6 combo(so tough that I always say “remember to tip the waitstaff” as I leave). I’ve been toying with the idea of adding a REL T5-X to fill out the bottom end.
 
  To paraphrase someone else, 300B tubes TTFMF, Ralph


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Tony
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Re: 300b - keeping it real
Reply #20 - 01/26/23 at 14:28:56
 

Hey Ralph,  Good reminder about letting those T-6 speakers settle in - I'm sure she has less than 50 hours on them at this point. I'll pass that along. I am sure she is headed toward the sub, which will help.   BTW, great collection of images in your posts Smiley
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Matchstikman
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Re: 300b - keeping it real
Reply #21 - 01/28/23 at 18:41:09
 
Rolled a few tubes, namely the 6SN7, an RCA pair I purchased on Ebay, then I put on the following:



It may not be 300b level, but very real presentation for such an old recording.
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CAJames
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Re: 300b - keeping it real
Reply #22 - 01/28/23 at 18:47:37
 
Love me some Jacqueline DuPre!
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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Senn HD-650
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Lon
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Re: 300b - keeping it real
Reply #23 - 01/28/23 at 20:35:35
 
RCA 6NS7, the older the better, are very good tubes. Glad that you are enjoying the amp. . . and posting.
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Re: 300b - keeping it real
Reply #24 - 01/29/23 at 00:45:45
 
The RCA 5692”red base” is such of a cutie pie of a 6SN7GTB that it always makes me smile when I hear them.

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KEF LS50 wireless 2 w/KC62 sub
Analog Ethos select series 2a3>Klipsch Forte IV
Dennis Had Inspire 6FLV-v>Decware T6
Shanling STP10>JBL N26
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