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Single-driver speakers (Read 2408 times)
Burgermeester
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Single-driver speakers
10/08/22 at 09:27:23
 
Every now and then I see an assertion go by that makes me really sit up and wonder, or worry.

One recent one was, in effect, "Single-driver speakers are great for vocal and solo acoustic instruments, but forget it if you listen to orchestral music 'cause it gets smeared."

I did notice that when my single-driver Betsies arrived they came with a very impressive CD of...vocal and acoustic guitar music.

I'm also thinking about a recent video from GR where Danny talks about low-frequency drivers having to do a lot of short- or micro-traverse reproduction of lower-mids while handling the simultaneous large traverses of low frequencies. Again, the result is smearing of the lower-mids, which is why he suggests rolling off the low lows and handing those off to subs, which are built completely differently and designed for the frequencies that require the most energy.

I'm wondering whether anyone out there would strongly deny that single drivers are handicapped when it comes to complex sound reproduction like orchestral music (and maybe contribute to HIV (Head in Vice) syndrome as well). 'Cause if it is in fact true, then some pretty well-regarded speakers like the Omega Compact Alnicos are special-purpose devices. Who knows, maybe only some of us are able to detect this problem...
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CAJames
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Re: Single-driver speakers
Reply #1 - 10/08/22 at 15:58:32
 
I have some thoughts on this...

I grew up playing in orchestras and bands, and when I hung it up after college most of my live listening has been of symphony orchestras. A live orchestra can be a transcendent experience when everything is right, but they don't always sound very good for a variety of reasons (just as lots of other live music doesn't always sound great). Much of my home listening is also of symphonic music, currently with a pair of UFO amps and Omega Super AlNiCo Monitors, and the TL;DR is I think it sounds great, but not like a live orchestra in a sympathetic hall. More below.

When we are talking about reproducing music at home let me start with this. In my experience solo or small ensembles always sound better (or perhaps more realistic) than an full orchestra or e.g. the Buddy Rich Big Band, just because the physical size of the transducers (speakers) more closely matches that of the performers. A string quartet or the Bill Evans Trio or your favorite female vocalist just fits better coming out of two speakers (regardless of size and number of drivers) in your listening room than 80 to 100+ musicians filling the stage of a concert hall that holds thousands of people.

Small ensembles are also easier to record well, again because of their size, and also dynamic range. They fit in a studio where it is easy to control the sound (if the producer/engineers/performers actually care about the sound). Maybe the ultimate example is I don't think I've ever heard a recording of the Bach Cello Suites that didn't sound at least very good. I think because a solo cello is easy to record, the frequency range is easy to reproduce (and most everyone thinks it sounds pleasing) and a cello is probably about the same size as the pair of speakers you are listening to today.

Now, about orchestras. Let me start with this: You aren't going to reproduce the live orchestra experience in your listening room, any more than you are going to reproduce a Who concert in your living room. (FTR I saw The Who at the LA Coliseum with The Clash on their first farewell tour, it was awesome).  But, just as The Who can sound really good at home, so can an orchestra. And I don't think the number is drivers in your speakers is the determining factor. You need a system that is capable reproducing music down to 40 Hz or below, and a 50ish dB dynamic range. Perhaps big (multi driver) speakers (typically driven by high powered amps) have the edge in this department, but as Steve always points out low powered amps with high sensitivity speakers can get you to the same place and with other advantages as well. Your system (and room) also need to resolve detail and image to the extent that it exists on the recording, and this may be the key, IMO.

To take your question specifically, I don't know what "smeared" means in the context of an orchestra, either live or recorded. In real life when the whole orchestra is playing the sound is certainly "smeared" in the sense that you cannot resolve individual players specifically in space the way you can in good recordings of small ensembles. And to a large extent that is the goal, the composer wants the whole orchestra to sound like a single huge instrument. Even in quiet passages when only a few instruments are playing the sound, while more specifically placed, still sounds like it is coming more from "the stage" or even "the hall" than a point source. At least it should with good musicians playing in a good hall.

In a recording, you get what the producer, engineers et. al. give you. RCA, Mercury, Decca etc. from the "golden age" give you a simply mike'd soundscape that aims at reproducing the whole orchestra in the hall, which is "smeared" as I understand the word. Modern multimik'd recordings try to highlight individual players and sections, perhaps to fight the smear, and (IMO) give an "abstracted" presentation of the music, more as it looks on the score than how it sounds in concert. I have heard many recordings on many systems over the years.

Long before Decware I had Acoustat X planer magnetic speakers, and Martin Login Sequel II hybrid electrostatic speakers. Then smaller ProAc and Totem monitors with Pass Single Ended Mosfet amps. And back when I lived in the big city (and high end audio stores were a thing) my buddy and I heard many high end systems, both big and small. Many of those systems (including mine) reproduced a symphony orchestra in a satisfying way but none of them made me think I was at a concert.

I will say for me, my current Decware/Omega system does as well reproducing orchestral music as any I have heard. It has the necessary frequency range and dynamics (better than any other system I've had in my house) but most especially the detail and transparency to bring an entire orchestra to life in my room. This I think is key, because it is the details or more correctly the combination of many details that is the glory of symphonic music. It has plenty of power and dynamics to fill my (modest) room with sound. A sound that is pointed in the direction of a good seat in a good hall, but isn't. It doesn't sound like the Vienna Phil live in the Musikverein, it sounds better because the concert I heard there was from standing room and the sound was nothing special. So, for me the bottom line is yes, I strongly deny that single driver speakers are handicapped when it comes to reproducing orchestral music.






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Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Senn HD-650
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effluviography
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Re: Single-driver speakers
Reply #2 - 10/08/22 at 19:55:59
 
CAJames - thank you for that well-considered response. My own thoughts about complex music, how it is recorded, reproduced, and experienced in your room are similar to yours - based on my experience (limited as it is) as a musician and former recording artist.

Hifi - in my estimation - is not about reproducing the experience at a concert, but creating an experience of music that is different and beautiful in it's own way - textural, enveloping, mind-altering and engaging. And often more enjoyable than a concert - as sound quality, the venue and overall experience can vary so considerably.

And I agree with your thoughts about Decware/Omega - as my CAMs and Mini-torii sound better with a wider range of music - including complex multi-instrumental recordings, than anything I have owned before.
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will
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Re: Single-driver speakers
Reply #3 - 10/08/22 at 21:42:27
 
I think generalization about single driver speakers is the confusing part here, and probably a lot a carry over from historic difficulties in making them convey the broad musical ranges and not be "shouty." But like with DACs and amps and all else... we keep evolving thank goodness.

Seems especially some smaller box types can have great speed, but apparently can have issues for some, perhaps especially for a wide range of music. Then, there are those that apparently do not, like those mentioned here, Omegas always being a fav here on this forum, as well as many Randy and Steve have made being highly admired.

Also imagine all the multi-driver speakers for which the sound lacks the ability to give us the deeper beauty and engaging magic across recordings. Seems to me, as with it all, everything matters, and how it goes together can make a great home music making tool, or more often, not.
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4krow
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Re: Single-driver speakers
Reply #4 - 10/09/22 at 02:37:29
 
Like most listeners, I have owned multi-driver speakers and liked their sound. When I first heard a single driver speaker, I was impressed in some ways and put off by others. It was when I built the FRX cabinets with FRX2 drivers that I really turned toward the single driver concept. I stuck with those speakers for years, and then first built the DNA model. It was good, but I wanted more of it. Bigger sound, I guess. So, it only stands to reason that I built a set of DNA2 cabinets, which I presently own. As expected, the choice of driver can change everything. As much as I enjoyed the Mark Audio P12? drivers, the bass was great and yet, wasn't (I wanted more).
Now, to the point of this conversation, I will say that I have not yet heard a recording that sounded less than focused. I would tend to think it is because of the single source concept that this happens. Lately, I have experimented with a driver no longer made by Audio Nirvana which uses a neodymium magnet. I mention this because it appears that the magnet type/structure can have a profound effect on the sound. Again, one of my first observations is that the sound is focused, but I will admit that, as many full range drivers there is a rising top end. With my hearing this is actually a good thing, but I am sure that most people would find the sound to be bright.
Compared to the many previous speakers that I have built, I still find the single driver to be my preference.
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Burgermeester
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Re: Single-driver speakers
Reply #5 - 10/09/22 at 09:18:44
 
Huge amounts to ponder here, many thanks to all.

In a former life/job I had occasion, once, to stand about 20 feet behind the conductor of the Tokyo Philharmonic while the orchestra rehearsed the Rite of Spring in an empty hall.

Ever since, I've had an "enhancer" setting in memory that I can turn on -- activate from that memory -- when I replay recorded orchestral music in my head, and it's wonderful. What I heard that day sure was not like anything I've ever heard over a pair of speakers. Pretty overwhelming.
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effluviography
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Re: Single-driver speakers
Reply #6 - 10/09/22 at 21:57:31
 
Burgermeester - I know what you are saying. I've had a few music/concert experiences that were mind-altering. I know that no stereo could recreate these, so I'm looking to create new mind-altering experiences that only great hifi can manifest.
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|| Mini-Torii & CSP-3 | Analog: ZP-3, Technics SL-1210GR & Ortofon 2m Black | Digital: Z-Box, Denafrips Ares 2, Iris DDC, Roon & Mac Mini | Omega CAM's & Deep-Hemp Sub | ZMF Atticus | 2x Emotiva CMX-6 | Decware Styx, Power & IC's | Supra Exc. USB | NOS Tubes ||
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will
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Re: Single-driver speakers
Reply #7 - 10/09/22 at 23:42:18
 
I agree effluviography. Once I got into Decware, tubes, Tranquility DAC and supportive computer system, cable making, better power, and room all working well together, I realized this was possible... to have transcendent experiences in a home system/room. And after many, many years of deepening experiments and modifications, finally I can say I that I have slipped into sweet, resolving, transcendent beauty across most recordings, home system beauty that is beyond my descriptive skills... touchingly beautiful and complete every time I turn on and warm up my system.

Fairly flawless balances of the many balances across recordings have always been a goal, and accomplished pretty early on for the most part once I got into gain riding really well tuned pre and amp stages, but it keeps getting better and better.... more complexly and completely resolving, better time and spectral balances across those many ranges, immediate and dynamically exciting without being in your face.... and loads of empty space between "the particles," allowing ridiculously realistic fine detail and space and offering beautiful harmonic overtones.... textures, decays, live space between players.... natural beauty without boundaries.

The more I get into it, the more I think this is of course improving resolution and balances, but probably more, reducing smearing I did not know was there, deeper improvements always seeming to include less smearing... over and over again.

Now sort of another world by my perception, it does all these things and more so completely that I can't really identify what makes the beauty fully, or areas that need attention.... Touchingly resolving everything with amazing natural speed and smooth but profound clarity that is not pushed or hard..... touching beauty.... far better than ever imagined.

Not bragging, it has been a lot of painstaking work for a lot of years, and likely as I adjust to this new level, as has happened so many times before, I will eventually find new ways to take it deeper.... for me always amazed that it can get better and better, even after these more breakthrough times where it all works so well together I forget what I am trying to do, and just get sucked in...at least so far it always can! But mainly, just saying "new mind-altering experiences that only great hifi can manifest" can be done, over and over again for me so far. Not live music, but better musically to me!
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EdwardT
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Re: Single-driver speakers
Reply #8 - 10/09/22 at 23:44:54
 
I’m with Will, everything matters in the chain.
Superbly constructed single driver full range speakers can only present what the amplifier chain delivers and poorly designed speakers are…poor. Single drivers do have to overcome some basic sound physics regarding wavelengths and distances across the driver but high quality construction can control some of that beaming. Still, trying to reproduce a long wave does tax a smaller area driver, it’s easy to see how trying to create a 80hz, 15' long wave with a 5” cone isn’t easy.
And yet, this still sounds surprisingly great:


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