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Is is possible to over do it? (Read 5118 times)
Dr3wman
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Is is possible to over do it?
10/01/22 at 15:44:38
 
Good morning all,

As I await my MKV and ZRock I’ve started mapping out potential add ons in the future.

Would it be over the top to run something like this:

CXN- V2 > ZBIT> CSP325 > ZROCK2 > MKV ?

There would be a TT as a second source running to a phonoamp then to the CSP3.

I want to optimize the setup but don’t want to fall into the trap of buying components just to buy them.
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Torii MKV/25 mods
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Technics SL-1200GR w/ Nagaoka MP-200.
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CAJames
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Re: Is is possible to over do it?
Reply #1 - 10/01/22 at 16:31:56
 
Possible? Sure.

Inevitable? That's up to you.

Everyone has different wants, needs and tastes. For me personally, I have no need or want for a ZBIT and/or ZROCK and generally subscribe to the "less is more" school of audio. But lots of posters use both and wouldn't be without either. So, as always, the choice is yours.
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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
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Dr3wman
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Re: Is is possible to over do it?
Reply #2 - 10/01/22 at 17:14:23
 
I’ve definitely heard the competing camps of less is more vs layers of components.
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Torii MKV/25 mods
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Technics SL-1200GR w/ Nagaoka MP-200.
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Tony
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Re: Is is possible to over do it?
Reply #3 - 10/01/22 at 20:15:25
 

FWIW, you are planning a system close to the one I have now. Each part contributes, and I would not eliminate one. I think you will be very pleased.

Good luck!
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SE84UFO25 | Ic0n4 Passive Preamp | ZBIT | Cambr. CXNv2 | Denafrips Pontus II | Denafrips Gaia | Decware I/Cs | Decware Pwr Cbls | ZWIRE Speaker Cbls | Omega SAHOM & KEF KC62 | Furman Cond l GIK Room Trmt
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JBzen
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Re: Is is possible to over do it?
Reply #4 - 10/01/22 at 21:53:50
 
Hi Dr3wman,

What is your reasoning for adding a Zbit in the lineup?

John
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AMC CD8b>XO3>Cambridge CXN2>ZDAC>ZBOX>braided silver/occ> Zrock2>CSP2+>SE84 milflex copper 25th>9AWG silver/copper braid>lii Crystal 10 in Huijgen cabinets. Ortofon 2M Black>JVC QL-F4/Otari MX5050B2>ZP3. Isolation. AC filtering. Room treatment.
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Dr3wman
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Re: Is is possible to over do it?
Reply #5 - 10/02/22 at 03:48:44
 
John,

Truthfully, there is a bit of impulsiveness, and the fun of new gear behind it. It started with reading that being able have balanced connections going out of a dac might offer an enhanced listening experience.

Andrew
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Torii MKV/25 mods
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JBzen
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Re: Is is possible to over do it?
Reply #6 - 10/02/22 at 13:35:54
 
Andrew,

The Zbit will more than double the output voltage of the CXNv2. Some may argue this but my understanding is the XLR scheme is meant to lower noise in long low voltage connections. The added voltage may fool some to think it is better sound.

The Zbit also can control volume therefore giving an impression that it might serve as a preamp. The CXNv2 preamp can be controlled by the app and also the dial on the face of the unit. This feature of the streamer is only useful for the analog outs. The digital outs{pass thru) bypass the preamp and do not provide this feature.

The analog section of the CXNv2 has a slight drop in sound quality as compared to the digital outs which are top notch. ModWright mods by most all accounts brings that analog output up too par with the digital outs. Some have noted a notch above with claims of 'as good as vinyl'.

Unless you want to place the CXNv2 close to your listening position getting better view of the on board LCD and/or use manual controls, leaving longer interconnects, IMO it be best to eliminate the Zbit and either get the MW mods giving full control of the streamer via the app or get a good DAC with digital inputs and still have excellent manual preamp control with the CSP325A.

John
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AMC CD8b>XO3>Cambridge CXN2>ZDAC>ZBOX>braided silver/occ> Zrock2>CSP2+>SE84 milflex copper 25th>9AWG silver/copper braid>lii Crystal 10 in Huijgen cabinets. Ortofon 2M Black>JVC QL-F4/Otari MX5050B2>ZP3. Isolation. AC filtering. Room treatment.
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CAJames
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Re: Is is possible to over do it?
Reply #7 - 10/02/22 at 16:11:05
 
Quote:
Posted by: JBzen      Posted on: Today at 13:35:54

... Some may argue this but my understanding is the XLR scheme is meant to lower noise in long low voltage connections....


Yes. Traditionally balanced connections are used to remove common mode noise on long cable runs. But with the advent of "balanced DACs" they provide additional benefits. I can't speak to the CXNv2 specifically but a balanced DAC will output both a positive and negative phase version of the music and differencing them, either with a ZBIT or at your speakers, averages out digital errors and artifacts, in addition to reducing noise. This improves the measured performance of the DAC, whether or not it improves the sound in your real world depends on a lot of factors.

For me personally, balanced matters a lot, both with my current Decware/Denafrips system and previously. It mattered enough for me to buy 2 UFOs so I can used them as balanced mono blocs (the extra watts are a nice bonus, but not the reason I bought 2). Again, for me, I like the idea of differencing the balanced signal at the speakers (or headphones), not using a ZBIT to convert the balanced to single ended before it is amplified, but lots of posters really like their ZBITs.
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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Senn HD-650
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will
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Re: Is is possible to over do it?
Reply #8 - 10/02/22 at 18:39:13
 
From JBzen- "The added voltage may fool some to think it is better sound." In my experience with a number of high quality variable voltage pre stages and Decware amps, I don't find the change in sound "perceived," rather the voltage, if well handled, acts as a sonic signal modifier, the sound from the amp then increased in density, dynamics, articulation top to bottom, lucidity.... I would be shocked John, if you did not hear this with "gain riding" the pre stage with the amp for similar volume, ruling out most loudness variables. And to me the ZBit transformers being very clean and high bandwidth, they do "filter" the sound from the source, noticeable and beneficial, complimenting and contributing to the effects of a higher voltage signal effects on the source signal and amp sound. Finally, in my room, using gain riding makes the adjustable voltage from the ZBit very useful, easily tuning these qualities for more or less of them, for fine tuning these qualities to tastes, for the system/room, and equally helpful to me for tuning varied recording qualities to tastes, making the recordings better in a system.
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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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JBzen
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Re: Is is possible to over do it?
Reply #9 - 10/02/22 at 19:48:42
 
Hey Will, that is something that hopefully can be tried this coming weekend. Very interested input here from you and CAJames...and I just got the OCC solid copper silver plated wire ordered for speaks. Never ends Smiley

John
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AMC CD8b>XO3>Cambridge CXN2>ZDAC>ZBOX>braided silver/occ> Zrock2>CSP2+>SE84 milflex copper 25th>9AWG silver/copper braid>lii Crystal 10 in Huijgen cabinets. Ortofon 2M Black>JVC QL-F4/Otari MX5050B2>ZP3. Isolation. AC filtering. Room treatment.
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JOMAN
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Re: Is is possible to over do it?
Reply #10 - 10/02/22 at 22:12:14
 
It mattered enough for me to buy 2 UFOs so I can used them as balanced mono blocs (the extra watts are a nice bonus, but not the reason I bought 2). Again, for me, I like the idea of differencing the balanced signal at the speakers (or headphones), not using a ZBIT to convert the balanced to single ended before it is amplified, but lots of posters really like their ZBITs.

Yes!  That is what FULLY balanced is all about.  it starts at the source and in the source, then goes through to the end and in this case you will not need a ZBIT.

What matters is not how it's done, but how well it's done whether that be Fully Balanced or SE.  When done well the need for components that "fill in so speak" is no longer there.  The problem is that doing something well is very demanding the budget.

In my case I needed the ZROCK2-A for a period of time.  I had Steve add the full A mods so that what it did it did well.  I then decided to rework my entire front and do do it well.  I knew that I would have to open the bank account not just my wallet in order for that to happen.

I've just started to go down the path and already it became apparent that I would no longer need the ZROCK2-A.  Not everyone will be prepared to do this and so a ZBIT and/or ZROCK-2 will definitely have their place and will work very well because these components are "done" well.

So "overdoing it" will depend on whether one go beyond the needs of the system that we individually put together.  Interestingly my friends think that going down the path that I am now going in is overdoing it.

Think what they may, I'm thoroughly enjoying what I am doing.  When that stops, when the fun goes, then no matter what I do it will be overdoing it.  





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tempest62
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Re: Is is possible to over do it?
Reply #11 - 10/02/22 at 22:40:27
 
John, perhaps those friends you're referring to will be more at home going to Best Buy Canada and rummaging through the low end B stock offerings of higher end mfrs.

You're right, its never too far unless you're just not into it.

Brad
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Burgermeester
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Re: Is is possible to over do it?
Reply #12 - 10/02/22 at 23:07:56
 
Unless I've missed it, we're still waiting for DW to offer the "custom XLR to RCA jacks" described in the UFO25 manual.

Or does a ZBIT just upstream from the amp achieve the same thing?
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JOMAN
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Re: Is is possible to over do it?
Reply #13 - 10/02/22 at 23:22:40
 
Brad,

They're right at home coming over, listening to music and drinking my Scotch.

But they're OK, the other night one brought over a 18yr Dewars, a gift of all things!  We all have fun and that's the main thing.
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Lon
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Re: Is is possible to over do it?
Reply #14 - 10/02/22 at 23:27:49
 
No, the ZBIT does not accomplish the same thing. The ZBIT allows you to use (and adjust) the full balanced output from a balanced source or preamp into a single-ended amplifier, or from a balanced source into a single-ended preamplifier.

The cabling you are asking about accomplish a different end:  allow you to turn a two channel Zen amp into a single channeled balanced amp. This will give more watts and achieve the noise-canceling properties that balanced output provides.
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HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
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Burgermeester
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Re: Is is possible to over do it?
Reply #15 - 10/03/22 at 00:18:09
 
Many thanks, Lon.

So it sounds like my on-order CSP325 wouldn't be applicable in the fully balanced scenario. I'd either need a balanced pre, or to use no pre at all.

I'm a believer in preamps, but a fully modded ZTPRE is out of scope budgetwise. As it is the pair of UFO25s I ordered will require me to die a 4-5 months earlier to offset the impact.

Given the cost of all this I'm tempted to just stay with SE from ZBIT > CSP > UFO and say, "This is fine."
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will
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Re: Is is possible to over do it?
Reply #16 - 10/03/22 at 00:29:17
 
Joman said: "What matters is not how it's done, but how well it's done whether that be Fully Balanced or SE.  When done well the need for components that "fill in so speak" is no longer there. The problem is that doing something well is very demanding the budget."

Here, my highly modified Decware is like stock in basic characters, but "much more" translucent, complex and complete than stock, or A-mods. So I have occasional concerns about commenting on these things. But my audio memory is good, so I can  still "hear" my system at various stages along the way. Now, "adding things" that enhance the experience transparently are pretty much just additive, importantly, after fully modifying each "addition" to match the rest. And all of it, including power and cables, etc being pretty crazy good these days, there is "much less" subtle hit to transparency, speed etc with additions than there once was when balancing underlying sacrifices with enhancements was more notable. But back then, all stock, new pieces tended to stay for me too once fine tuned with really transparent and resolving tubes and cables to the system/room.

So when I talk about things now, I always try to put myself back to when things were more stock, or closer to A-mods, my tuning tools being mainly gear, room, tubes, cables, vibration mitigation, power, etc.... trying to stay as real as I can in my comments. Finally, with the right room, source, tubes, etc, I think Decware really well set up is so good toward a "real" sound stock, that my modifications mainly enhance what Steve's designs already do so well, so there is a strong sonic thread.

To me, this makes "additions" pretty relative based on the overall state of modifications versus stock across the system. If the system is all stock, or all A-mod, or all more fully modified like mine.... the possible effects from adding this or that, with all the Decware at a similar level, it tends to carry new peices in the same state, either stock or ultra-modified, similarly. But, for example, when I added a ZRock2 with just the tube mod, and later beyond A-mods, it would not have lasted in my system, so I had to take it full out like the rest for it to match.

So, of course, if it is all stock, there are more subtle hits on transparency, resolution, speed, etc from adding things, and in my current setup, almost none. But I loved adding stock Decware pre stages when all was stock too, once finely tuned with really complimentary tubes and cables, the enhancement possibilities for me notably outweighing subtle transparency hits.

All that said, I would not be without transparent and musical "gain riding" tools to fine tune density, resolution, dynamics, speed, etc, to my system and room, and very importantly for me, to tune various recording styles to better fit the system/room.
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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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JOMAN
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Re: Is is possible to over do it?
Reply #17 - 10/03/22 at 01:20:37
 
I think some clarification of what I said earlier is in order...

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will
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Re: Is is possible to over do it?
Reply #18 - 10/03/22 at 01:49:28
 
BTW Joman, I am glad to see you back.
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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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JOMAN
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Re: Is is possible to over do it?
Reply #19 - 10/03/22 at 02:02:40
 
Sorry hit the post before completing it...

[highlight]All that said, I would not be without transparent and musical "gain riding" tools to fine tune density, resolution, dynamics, speed, etc, to my system and room, and very importantly for me, to tune various recording styles to better fit the system/room.[/highlight

I fully agree with this and have retained the ability to adjust gain structure, I wouldn't be without it and in fact taken it a step further.  The Qutest can be adjusted to 1V, 2V or 3V output.  I still have the CSP3-A and the UFO25 Dual gain controls.  When removing the ZR2 and re inserting the CSP3 I made considerable gain adjustments and went a step further.

In the CSP3 and UFO25 I have all CryoTone tubes.  In the input positions I have the 12AU7-Long Plate and in the output I have the 12AX7 LongPlate.  So the ability to adjust gain becomes even more necessary.  The additional benefit is that I can now use tubes like the Cryotone 12AU7 which has a level of performance that I've yet to encounter with any input tube that I have used to date.

As far as the rest is concerned... How it's done vs How well it's done... That was in reference to the source components that I have just procured.  

I am now in the process of going digital as the main source.  I have always felt that the source is going to play a key roll in what is produced down stream and so decided to make sure that the components that I chose were "done well".

Streamer: Lumin U2 Mini (got it for $2,800.00 CAD new.  Retail up here is $3,500.00).  Chord Qutest pre owned $1,600.00 CAD. Plixir Elite BDC with the Statement Cable $1,050.00.  The Qutest is the start point and now that I have had a chance to listen to it I plan to get the M Scaler or a Hugo TT2 w/M scaler.

I had the source components going into the ZR2 directly into the UFO25.  The Qutest was set to the 3V output, and adjustments were made to the other settings on the UFO25.  I had to turn the EQ level down on the ZR2 and then started to bypass and compare.  Three people listening and all felt that the bypassed mode produced the best results.  The CSP3-A is back in and the Qutest is set to 2V.

Next step are the USB cables, and  ethernet cables.  The budget for the USB cable is in excess of $1,000.00 USD.

So let's have a look at what it took to better the ZR2, or what it was doing.  Three source that components that cost a total of $5,450.00 CAD.  However the key thing to note is not how it was done, but how well it was done.  I firmly believe that if I had chosen source components that were not of this caliber, I still would have the ZR2-A.

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JOMAN
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Re: Is is possible to over do it?
Reply #20 - 10/03/22 at 02:05:58
 
Thanks Will,  back with discretion.  I have benefited from this forum and so felt that I should not abandon it entirely.  Now that I am re doing my source some of what I am learning may be of benefit to others.
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Burgermeester
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Re: Is is possible to over do it?
Reply #21 - 10/03/22 at 03:56:03
 
There’s a fascinating, maddening amount of advice and experience and information here. What a great forum.

My CSP325+ZBIT order could be swapped for a ZTPRE. I have no experience riding gain -- and I have a commitment to avoiding new DW orders until that 10,000 sq ft production facility opens up and the wait drops to 6 months -- but should I get the ZTPRE instead, going direct to the UFO25s through custom cables?

I don't mean which approach would sound better -- I don't think anyone can tell me that -- but what would be a sounder approach over all? Sorry to ask for purchasing-related advice but I know any opinions will contain more of that great input.
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CAJames
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Re: Is is possible to over do it?
Reply #22 - 10/03/22 at 04:00:50
 
Quote:
Posted by: Burgermeester      Posted on: Today at 03:56:03
-- but should I get the ZTPRE instead, going direct to the UFO25s through custom cables?


Yes. .

I will also mention in passing there are non-Decware options for balanced tube preamps.

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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Senn HD-650
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will
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Re: Is is possible to over do it?
Reply #23 - 10/03/22 at 04:26:01
 
Hey Joman,

It is good to hear your new source and pre story. I could not keep the DAC you used to have, nice on some recordings, but not across recordings for me compared to my other, and still used DAC(s). Also pretty highly modified versions of really good DACs, (etc), I think these are quite a bit more refined... with pretty complete and natural musical presentation, including amazing complexity in the finest detail and space, revealing the rest of the system/components for better or worse, but finally just sounding less there. Though costly, with your refined system, I bet your new setup experience makes the rags about source, source, source pretty real... exciting.
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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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JOMAN
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Re: Is is possible to over do it?
Reply #24 - 10/04/22 at 02:17:09
 
Hey Will,

Actually it is exiting, and frustrating at times (almost feel like I'm 21 again, or is that senility setting in???).  I'm finally doing what I knew I should have done but never had the budget for.  It's not easy wading through the options and figuring out what will end up being the "end game".  

This time I know what I want the end result to be, finally figured it out, so that the path is easier to see and follow.


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