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Speaker choice help (Read 7849 times)
Earthbound
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Speaker choice help
07/08/22 at 00:06:20
 
I want to thank those who have helped educate me these past couple of months and ask for your experience one more time. I had purchased a pair of Zu Soul Supreme, which sound awesome, and am now experiencing some significant ear fatigue. Having spoke with people in the business, Zu apparently can be bright (a term I still can’t say I know exactly what it means). My novice experience say that upper mid range and treble are forward, more towards you, accentuated, crisper etc…Well it turns out certain piano keys(the ones on the right side) and Jerry Garcia chords can really ring in my ears. I’ve changed interconnects from Decware dsr3s to Nordstrom red, bought a new CD player with a better dac, bought a separate dac all to help. Was even starting to go to tube rolling when a business owner explained Zu characteristics.
So, I am now shopping for speakers. I guess I’m looking for something warmer. They will be played through a MKv, csp3 zrock.
Recommendations thus far include;
1. Klipsch- Cornwall too big for space though. How are Forte4’s?
2. Spendor- d7 which is a couple grand above optimal or the a7. Any experience?
3. Audio note
4. Decware dna
I want a speaker that will handle base and not require a separate sub. So, this rules out many of the quality smaller speakers.
Thanks in advance for comments or other suggestions. 👍
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Dr3wman
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #1 - 07/08/22 at 00:11:18
 
My brother has HR-1s (Now the HR2) sold by Decware.  Hooked up to an MKIV and multiple other Decware components.  I think they sound fantastic. Being a radial design, they are also far less picky about room position.
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Earthbound
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #2 - 07/08/22 at 00:28:17
 
Thanks Dr3wman. I remember reading some good reviews on the hr1. I will look into them. Hopefully some of the owners here will share their insight and compare to others they’ve had. 👍
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Lon
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #3 - 07/08/22 at 00:40:53
 
I have had two pair of HR-1 for nine years, and the first pair another two years before that. I stopped looking for speakers after these. They have the bass I want--I don't like subwoofers and none are needed for audio with these speakers. They have a spacious, natural sound. RivieraRanch has a pair for sale here in the forums for a great price.
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Joey
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #4 - 07/08/22 at 01:00:23
 
I would strongly consider the Omega 8XRSHO. They are not listed on the webpage but he's made several, just give him a call after July 18.
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Tommy Freefall
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #5 - 07/08/22 at 01:04:35
 
Earth, Lon beat me to it but I was going to suggest you take a serious look at the HR-1.

RivieraRanch is offering his at a very attractive price:

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1647046109

These might just be the ticket for your situation
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Earthbound
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #6 - 07/08/22 at 01:11:12
 
Thanks Lon. Will definitely take a look at the sales area and read up on the HR1’s.
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Tommy Freefall
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #7 - 07/08/22 at 01:14:14
 
Earth, I forgot to mention.
I have the little brother of the HR-1s - the ERRx.
I have no need of a sub with this speaker.
Even less so if you have a ZRock in your system.
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Torii MkIV w/ 25th ann mods
Rachael SE34I.5
Benchmark AHB2
ERRx
ZStage, ZRock2
Tascam CD-240
Border Patrol DAC
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Zu Audio Mission speaker cables
Decware I/Cs
PI Audio MiniBUSS
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Earthbound
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #8 - 07/08/22 at 01:15:12
 
Thanks Joey. Not familiar with Omega’s. I’ve seen the name pop up in posts. Will have to check them out. I love this part of buying new things. I get to read all the reviews, which I don’t always put too much stock in but you can get some insight into the product. Also, great to hear how passionate people get about their systems.
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Earthbound
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #9 - 07/08/22 at 01:19:41
 
Lon. What is the desired position in a room for the hr1’s? My probable speaker placement would be about 6.5 feet apart, 20 inches from the rear wall, five feet from side walls and 10 feet in front of me. It’s a living room with stuff in it. Do these require a more dedicated listening roomor are they forgiving?
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Sean
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #10 - 07/08/22 at 02:18:59
 
I’ll go a different from every one else…You said these are in a living room, so you may be stuck with your placement and distances. If you can, widen the distance between the speakers. I like using an equilateral triangle, get yourself the same distance from each speaker and put the speakers that far apart, let’s just say nine feet. Also play with toe in angles. For my room no toe in works best.

Do you have a wall behind your listening spot? If so, move away from it if you can. You mentioned a certain note rings. I had the same issue with my Tekton’s. I used a room bounce calculator to determine which frequency is bouncing. I then built a BAD diffuser for that frequency. No more shrill, offensive sounds occur now. If you don’t have a rear wall, you can ignore that.

Lastly, room treatments can be your friend. Beware, if you over do it, you can kill the whole experience.

Just my opinion to get the room right before getting speakers people may like but your room doesn’t.
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Lon
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #11 - 07/08/22 at 02:22:06
 
They'll adapt to any room really. The combination of front-firing tweeter and mid-range and the omnidirectional driver as well as a woofer at the bottom is both slightly forgiving of material and also forgiving of placement. I have both of my pairs about the same configuration as you mention--in two very different rooms--that work out really well.

Lots of good choices. Joe Lazenby is selling a pair of DNA2 speakers. I've never heard them, but due to their specs they would probably work even better in important ways with my amps, but I've had the HR-1 for so long that I can only really speak to them, and my deep satisfaction with them.
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Earthbound
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #12 - 07/08/22 at 02:22:47
 
Thanks Sean. I can easily move my listening chair forward to create that triangle. The wall behind me, actually a closed door would now be 3 feet behind me. Will give it a shot.
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Earthbound
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #13 - 07/08/22 at 02:24:30
 
Would applying the diffuser material right on the door behind me work?
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Earthbound
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #14 - 07/08/22 at 02:29:57
 
Glad you enjoy them so much Lon! I just got done reading a review on them on this site. I have to potentially ship my current speakers back and I’m very much not looking forward to it (in reference to you not shipping them for upgrades a couple of years ago). Thanks for the info. 👍
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armstdav
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #15 - 07/08/22 at 03:36:11
 
Earthbound,

I own Zu Druid Vs, which have the same drivers as your Soul Supremes in a different box. I also own a pair of home built (by 4krow) DNAs, which I'll talk about in a bit.

I ran the Druids for almost a year with a Torii Mk IV. They started out bright for me too, but I was able to dial things in by making a few changes.

The biggest change was toeing them out so they triangulated to a point about 4 feet behind my listening chair. Remember that the Zus cross over at 12 khz, so the Radian functions mostly as a supertweeter; 90% or more of what you're hearing is coming from the FRD. In the range where you're hearing ringing, most of the energy is coming from the whizzer cone which is definitely subject to beaming. If you have them aimed directly at your ears, they will almost always overload the midrange. Pointing them behind your chair puts them enough off axis to take the edge off, while still sounding great to my ears.

Second biggest change was running KT66s in my Torii. I tried EL34s, 6550s, KT88s, and KT77s and the 66s had just the right tonal balance for the Druids. Input tube rolling made less of a difference, although I ended up with 6SN7s and adapters, mostly because I have a big stash of 6SN7s.

Third in importance was speaker cables. I found the Zus pretty bright with all amps using generic cables or my Speltz Anti-cables. They were much better after I lucked into an affordable pair of Zu Libtec cables, which I believe are roughly equivalent to their current Event cables.

Fourth was using 25 ohm parallel resistors to bring the nominal impedance of the Zus down to 8 ohms. Zu sells them but I bought them online way cheaper. I found the Torii very much preferred seeing an 8 ohm load; with other amps it didn't always make a difference.

About the DNAs: I love them and ran them for a long while in my second system, but they just didn't have the extension at either end of the frequency spectrum to match the Druids. They definitely wouldn't qualify as bright, though. I just didn't like them nearly as much as the Zus for my main system.

One other speaker to consider: the DNAs in my second system ended up being replaced by a pair of Caintuck Lii 15s. They have many of the traits I love about the Zus while not not taking up as much space and not being bright with any amp or any placement. I tried them in the main rig and still didn't like them as much as the Zus, but I'm guessing Steve's Zen Masters with the bigger baffle may come even closer. Definitely worth consideration.

Bottom line, before you dump the Zus I would recommend trying all the above, or even call Zu and talk to Sean Casey. He's as accessible, knowledgable, and personable as Steve, has vast experience, and will be completely honest about his own products and others.

The reason I've owned Decware, Zu, Don Sachs, Modwright, Caintuck, George Wright, Hagerman, Atma-sphere and others is because you can talk directly to the designers/owners. Their collective wisdom and experience has been invaluable in my audio journey.

David
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Earthbound
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #16 - 07/08/22 at 04:11:50
 
Thanks for the reply Armstdav. I actually have the Zu 10 ohm resistors on them and use the event cable with the dubz adapter. I only have 30 hours, maybe 45 on them and the amp. Just concerned about the trial period ending and then having to sell privately. They sound wonderful but I feel it the next day. The amp I’m using until the Decware arrives, has all el34 electro Harmonix tubes. Was hoping the dac and some new tubes might be able to alleviate the problem. I will reposition the toe in.
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armstdav
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #17 - 07/08/22 at 04:28:38
 
Earthbound,

Hard choice if you don't have your Mk V yet. I ended up with Atma-sphere M-60s but the Torii was a very close second, so I'm guessing whatever you're running now probably isn't as good as the MkV will be. Even with a return period speakers are hard because they take so long to break in, although Zu gives them 100? hours before they ship them. All of my stuff was bought used so break in wasn't an issue.

Since your system isn't complete you really need to go with your gut on the Soul Supremes. I had already owned two pairs of Zus when I got the Druid Vs, so I was well familiar with their house sound. The Vs hit me just right and they're the keepers.

In the end, you can only trust your ears. I believe speakers are the most important component, then you build the other pieces around them.
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Earthbound
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #18 - 07/08/22 at 14:36:30
 
What I’m finding is many speakers that are open, airy, or forward seem to be guilty of that upper mid sparkle in many cases. Maybe it just comes with the more live music experience. Obviously some more than others. I have some time and NYC is a quick train ride away. One place has both the Spendor and Devore models that are in my price range. Just want to find a Harbeth dealer now.
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HockessinKid
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #19 - 07/08/22 at 14:52:50
 
John Rutan, owner of Audio Connection in Verona, NJ carries Harbeth Speakers. Very accommodating, it's about 30 minutes west of NYC.

HK



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Earthbound
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #20 - 07/08/22 at 18:42:32
 
Thanks Hossessinkid. I actually found a high end place in NYC that has both Harbeth and Spendor. Will make an appointment. I will see if it’s my ears or the speaker!
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Kahuna Jack
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #21 - 07/08/22 at 19:13:18
 
Not an exciting or "fun as getting new speakers" solution and some may even think its lame but Ive been listening to my Zu Omen mkII's with a very sheer silk draped in front of driver.

if bored or interested and dont want to give up on Zu's ,read "Examining the Yamaha NS-10M “Tissue Paper Phenomenon” article ( Bob Hodas Acoustic Analysis)
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Earthbound
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #22 - 07/08/22 at 22:33:15
 
Interesting KahunaJack. Apparently the Harbeths 30.2 are designed to have the grille on for that reason. Tones down the harshness. Thanks for the good idea.
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Sean
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #23 - 07/09/22 at 00:06:06
 
Years ago a friend loaned me a pair of Heresy’s, I used toilet paper to hanging over them to try and tame them. There’s a joke in there somewhere, amuse yourselves.

Earth, sorry missed the question about diffuser material. You can place it right on the surface, but I believe the general rule is to leave space between the material and surface equal to the thickness of the material. It’s all about experimenting, at least for me.
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Earthbound
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #24 - 07/09/22 at 14:48:15
 
So I really started looking at the Harbeth line. They seem nice and I was going to schedule a sound demo. I hesitate when I see the efficiency ratings of 85 or so. Is this pushing the limits for optimal Decware amp and preamp use?
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HockessinKid
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #25 - 07/09/22 at 15:22:46
 
They are inefficient speakers and not very revealing sound wise. You'll likely need a Torii or ZMA to get the most out of them.

HK
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Earthbound
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #26 - 07/09/22 at 17:39:06
 
Thanks. That’s sort of what I figured. I’m on the list for the mk5, but may use the 25th as mono blocks. Power would then be an issue I’d think.
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Earthbound
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #27 - 07/27/22 at 04:55:30
 
After a fairly long listening session, felt significant ear fatigue again. Again, those piano strikes on the right side of the keyboard. Too loud for too long, maybe. But has me thinking again.

Anyone have experience with Audio Note speakers? I like that some say they be a bit closer to the wall and still sound good.
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Tommy Freefall
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #28 - 07/28/22 at 00:16:32
 
Earth, I have no personal experience, but from what I've read about them, the A/N speakers (E series, J series) are actually designed to be placed into the corners for best performance.
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Earthbound
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #29 - 07/28/22 at 02:13:44
 
Thanks Tommy. I read that also. I spoke to a dealer today and he said the same, but still sound good away from corners. With the port in the back, I assume they’re trying to use the corner as base enhancer. Not sure I want to change their optimal design use.
Looked at Harbeths and Devore, which apparently like to be many feet out into the room. I’m running out of high efficiency speakers!
I’m in no hurry and understand most people don’t have their speakers placed in the optimal spot. I’m sure they sound great. I just want to make sure I choose wisely when I spend that amount of money. For the time being, I will try to improve other variables to “help” the Zu’s.
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Geno
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #30 - 07/28/22 at 02:41:40
 
Hi Earth.

Before you give up on the Zu’s, call Sean at Zu and let him know what you are experiencing. I remember reading somewhere that a listener had a similar experience as yours. I think he changed the high pass cap, and that took care of the issue. Talk to Zu and see what they think.

Best,

Geno
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Earthbound
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #31 - 07/28/22 at 17:42:32
 
Thanks Geno. Good idea. I will give Sean a call. I do love the sound so I will certainly try to make it work.
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Doug
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #32 - 07/29/22 at 00:23:47
 
Hi Earthbound,

My experience with Zu was much the same as you are currently experiencing.  I was the very first owner, and one of very few owners of Zu Definition III speakers.  The Definition as a whole has changed substantially since late 2011 when I took delivery, but the two 10” full rangers and the bullet style tweeter continue to anchor the system.

I found the Definitions to be hot in the midrange and high frequencies.  I tried four different amps with the Definitions across six years—Cary Audio 2A3SE mono blocks, Decware 2 watt Zen, Decware Torii Jr, and my LFD NCSE (the only SS amp I’ve owned the past three and a half decades), and I never could get the Zu’s to sound good in my listening room.  I worked tirelessly to make them shine but finally threw in the towel and sold them.  

On a side note, Sean Casey must come from the same business blood line as Steve Deckert.  Sean is super friendly, extraordinarily focused on customer satisfaction, and willing to spend significant time working directly with individual customers to insure the best outcomes.  I have a couple of examples of Sean’s customer service that are mind blowing, including one where Sean offered to stop at my house in Lees Summit, Missouri, during one of his cross country trips, in order to touch up a very minor scratch on one of my speakers with his fancy air brush painting machine.

Good luck taming your Soul Supremes!
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Earthbound
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #33 - 07/29/22 at 14:59:42
 
I appreciate it Doug. Perhaps I’m a bit frustrated because this is the first time spending this kind of money. My expectations were different. I spoke with Phil, who has been very helpful with suggestions, but not sure I want to throw money at the problem. I can’t start sticking foam on the ceiling and back walls. Other suggestions have included adding a Schiit Max equalizer and adding a subwoofer(which I might do anyway).
Problem with replacing is, speakers can only be 20 inches off the wall and 5 feet from side walls. So what choices are optimal?
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Tal
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #34 - 07/29/22 at 18:44:38
 
I'll throw my hat in. I've had the  Zu Soul 6 for about 5 months. Experience similar "brightness" you mention. As someone else previously mentioned, I found that toeing the speakers out so that they're not pointing directly at my listening chairs reduced the issue greatly. I also found that adjusting the ZR2 or adjusting the gain on the CSP3 depending on the music helps as well. Prior to the Zu's I was using DNA2s, which are great! After one month I decided the Zu's were staying. The Zu expanded both the top and bottom end (IMO). Best of luck
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Earthbound
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #35 - 08/03/22 at 18:36:21
 
So, after some more tweeks, tilted speakers up a hair and toed in a bit more, the ear fatigue continues. As a result, road trip time. Heading to a dealer to listen to Harbeth, Audio Note and Proac speakers. I’ve read that the Zu’s have a little more of the in your face, forward American sound and I’m going to try a little more old school box speaker English sound. People like to put these labels on these things. I don’t care and really just want to listen to a few different types of sound from different speakers. Bonus, my 82 year old mom wants to join me on the road trip. Might mean I have to put on a little Barbara Streisand, but the quality time will be worth it! 👍
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Geno
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #36 - 08/03/22 at 20:30:56
 
Earth,

You should add Omega to your list of candidates too. These have already been proven to be a good match with Decware.

Best,

Geno
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CAJames
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #37 - 08/03/22 at 21:58:31
 
+1 for Omega speakers.
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Joey
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #38 - 08/03/22 at 22:07:00
 
+2 for Omega.
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Earthbound
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #39 - 08/04/22 at 03:30:16
 
Thanks guys. I have spoken with Louis and have considered them. Really not sure at this point why I got away from them. Will look into again. Can they be close to the rear wall? That’s one of the criteria.
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CAJames
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Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #40 - 08/04/22 at 04:37:07
 
I think Omega is about the same as Harbeth, Proac and pretty much any other conventional box speaker when it comes to needing some space behind it for best results.
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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Senn HD-650
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HockessinKid
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Posts: 1084
Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #41 - 08/04/22 at 10:46:29
 
Earthbound,

If you are concerned about rear wall spacing, Louis @ Omega can build a speaker with a front firing port on most models. Doesn't effect the sound quality. Given your sensitivity to higher frequency I suggest you consider a model with Alnico drivers. They sound really nice!

HK
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Nottingham Interspace TT w/ Audio Technica AT-OC9XML cart + Modwright PH 9.0XT phono OR Modwright modded Cambridge CNX V2 > CSP3-25th Ann. preamp > ZMA-25th Ann. amp > PI Audio UberBUSS > Caintuck Audio Lii15 Magnum speakers > Snake River Audio & ZenWave cables
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CAJames
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"I've run every
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Posts: 1591
Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #42 - 08/04/22 at 16:49:41
 
+1 for the AlNiCo drivers. I have the Super AlNiCo Monitors (aka SAMs) and I really like the sound. Gentle in the highs and a ton of bass for stand mounted monitors. My room is smallish and rather irregular but they image very well and they can really fill it up (with 5 watts) when called upon. Whether it is the Buddy Rich Big Band or Bruckner or Zeppelin. I have them about 30" from the back wall FWIW.

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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Senn HD-650
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Earthbound
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Posts: 210
Re: Speaker choice help
Reply #43 - 08/05/22 at 15:29:04
 
I had a chance to listen to the Super xr8 and really enjoyed the sound. In the end, after spending 4 hours listening to everything from bookshelf speakers to $100,000+ speakers(oh my god!), I went with the AN-e/lx speakers. The balance of tone and smooth/liquid sound was what caught my ear and helped make my decision. All had nice aspects and some had attributes that perhaps were nicer, but the overall sound of the Audio Note was my favorite. An added bonus was the fact that they have my amp on the demonstration floor. Was reassuring to hear all the products through it and not some higher end device.
P.s. 4 hours of listening and no ear fatigue. So, at least I know it’s not the speakers. If it occurs now, it has to be the room set up.
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