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Lumin U2 Mini (Read 6535 times)
Joey
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Lumin U2 Mini
07/04/22 at 21:54:54
 
I just got the u2mini, a nice step up from the node2. Now for my other system I'm considering the T2 for a one box approach instead of node Gumby combo.

Anyone else rockin the T2?
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Tommy Freefall
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #1 - 07/13/22 at 03:36:22
 
I believe JOMAN on this Decware forum recently took delivery of a Lumin streamer, but can't recall exactly which one.

Perhaps we'll hear from him on his early impressions.
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JOMAN
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #2 - 09/21/22 at 19:02:39
 
Yes I have the Lumin up and running and am very impressed especially given the circumstances, I posted under UFO25 vs ToriiMKV.

As this is the first streamer that I have used I cannot give a comparison to others but I can say that it has exceeded my expectations to a fairly large degree even though it require  200 hours of burn in.  At the same time I also added a Chord Qutest DAC.  The addition of the Qutest was the first step in determining which DAC would end up being my end game DAC.  

To put some context to the over all performance, in prior situations that required me to remove the CSP3-A I would go direct from the ZROCK2-A to my UFO25 it was a get me by at best.  Now, with the Lumin U2 Mini, Qutest into the ZR2 and UFO25 I am thoroughly enjoying what I am hearing.  I think that for many this set up could be an end point or a great start.  It will be interesting to see what will happen when the CSP3-A goes back in.

Next steps... Waiting to get my Plixir Elite BDC power supply for the Qutest, I will evaluate the results once it is added and then the CSP3 will go back in.

Back to rolling components...

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CAJames
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #3 - 09/21/22 at 21:18:39
 
This is interesting. I don't stream but I have a growing library of FLAC/DSD downloads/rips. I've been using a (heavily tweaked) Windows laptop and Foobar2000 to play the files via USB, but my laptop is getting old and long story short, I just started considering a U2 mini as a replacement. I like the idea in theory, but I'm not crazy about it needing wired ethernet, and it is a little hard to swallow 2+K$ for a box to play files off a USB drive...
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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
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JOMAN
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #4 - 09/21/22 at 22:11:07
 
If you get it it's going to be harder to swallow the cost/size relationship once it's in your hands.  Reason that I pulled the trigger is that after evaluating streaming options it came down to the Lumin streamer being considered to be among the top choices and I did not want to go down the road of upgrading and loosing money in the process.

Also, being somewhat jaded on digital from the early days, I wanted to get what seemed to be something that would finally get me past, the past?  So far it's working out.

However, consider this... In my search for a DAC I quickly realized that the industry is moving in the direction of multi role digital units, sort of an integrated streamer, DAC, headphone amp and pre amp.  This AFTER I got the Lumin.  I got a good intro price on the Lumin and I started to think that I could get most of my investment back if I were to sell it and possibly consider one of these options.  Until I considered the cost of the top options that could equal or beat the Lumin U2 Mini and not by a huge margin...

The options: WEISS 501 $10,000.00, DCS Lina $13,000.00 and one other that was also in this category.  Now look at the size of the boxes these come in, and you still need an ethernet connection for the best results.

The real rub in this is that I just dropped grand on a LPS for the Qutest (really tried to keep it down to $300.00) and IF this does turn out to be the direction for me I'm going to be considering adding a Hugo M Scaler.  Even buying these units pre owned is going to hurt... BAD!  Fortunately the Qutest was a mint pre owned unit and I got a good deal on it.  

How in the world can we justify anything audiophiles do when it comes to what we spend money on.  You know, like $100.00 fuses... just saying...



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CAJames
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #5 - 09/22/22 at 03:20:28
 
Yeah. For all the promised ease and convenience this digital stuff can really be a PITA.

I think realistically I'm going to stick with a laptop for playback. My thing is I listen to mostly classical, and virtually all the software has no clue how to deal with classical. It thinks everything is a song and is useless for a symphony or concerto with a composer, movements, orchestra and a conductor and/or soloist. The only way I can make it work is to organize the albums in a directory structure like you would on your shelves, and I was excited to see Lumen's software lets you browse the filesystem directly (like foobar). But that isn't a good enough reason to spend that much money, esp. if I need to pull an ethernet cable just to get to the GUI. Which reminds me, there is a thread a little ways down, I don't think you were in originally about using fiber and media converters to connect your streamer, if you haven't seen it it might be worth a read. The title is removing network noise from you streamer.

FWIW I hear nothing but good about the M Scaler, although it seems like most folks pair it with the Dave (no pressure). As I recall, you started this journey because you felt like your digital front end was the weak link, I guess the bottom line is do you feel like you're making progress?

P.S. Good to have you posting again.
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JOMAN
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #6 - 09/22/22 at 12:19:54
 
Posting very selectively.  Didn't think that I would post again.  With the summer distractions past and advertising on the Classified section and scanning the recent posts, I felt that some of what I have learned may be of some help to others.  This forum has been of help to me.

All of the points that you bring out I agree with and have considered to some degree.  The state of the distribution of music is what finally pushed me farther into the digital world.  What helped me get past the analogue vs digital hurdle was a comment made by a musician who also is an audiophile... paraphrasing... digital is digital it will never be analogue.  I felt that there was truth to that and started looking at digital not in comparison to analogue but on its own merits.  After listening to the Lumin and Chord combo from that perspective I will say that it is not a compromise provided that one realizes the results will be dependant on the skill of the designers of the components and then the execution of those goals.

After having the Lumin and Qutest I have adjusted my take on the "limitations" of the source that I had, which was ZDSD with the OPPO 103D.  The "limitations" were based on the design purpose of those components.  The ZDSD is a modified TASCAM DA3000 ADDA.  Within the design and modification of the transformer output it was very good but it wasn't going to take me to the realization of my changed objectives.

Still have the OPPO and with the Qutest and further developments (Dave??? no pressure??, ya, sure pal!) I do think that eventually I'll get there (have serious doubts about getting the DAVE).  The Lumin U2 Mini is also going to get me there, so to speak.  Very impressed with what it does and can do although learning the app is at times a PIA, for someone with my limitations (patience).

I also started to look at the digital components from a different perspective.  A lot of what goes into these and what we pay for is programming along with the internal components which are designed to address things such as ethernet noise. How well that is accomplished may be another matter.

Talk about being OCD, I actually got a CAT 8 22AWG solid conductor ethernet cable, the house is wired with CAT 6.  A good friend who works for Rogers just shook his head.

I do get what you are saying about the way that music is being treated.  Also have experienced the same.  To try to get past that a significant portion of my goal is to have the system convey to me the live experience.  Definitely going in that direction now with the Lumin and the Chord.

(can't believe you actually had to bring up the Dave, thanks pal!)





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CAJames
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #7 - 09/22/22 at 15:35:11
 
Quote:
Posted by: JOMAN      Posted on: Today at 12:19:54

...started looking at digital not in comparison to analogue but on its own merits.  After listening to the Lumin and Chord combo from that perspective I will say that it is not a compromise...



Yes! I think I used exactly those words when I got my Denafrips stack. Digital is different, but is now an equally satisfying musical experience when taken on its own terms. The other thing that happened is I stopped chasing hirez. 16/44 sounds pretty much as good as DSD, and it is more about the quality of the recording than the bit rate of the file. Actually, I upsample 44K to 176 in foobar or my transport (not the DAC) but still...

Re: Ethernet OCD. I can only shake my head because managing the network at a mid major research university was my day job for several years and either because or in spite of that I have no interest in network based playback. In fact I sneaker-net a portable harddrive between my desktop computer upstairs where I download/rip/back up and my laptop downstairs where play the files.

Regardless, I look forward to future updates (with or without DAVE...)

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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Senn HD-650
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JOMAN
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #8 - 09/27/22 at 16:54:05
 
Update on the Lumin U2 Mini...

I assumed that the ethernet cable that would be included would not be very good so I bought two to try.  My friend who works for Rogers insisted that I would not notice any difference so I did not go for the typical audiophile cables.

I bought a Mono price shielded cable, 26AWG stranded conductor and the following:

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B08DP4DJMH/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?i...

I started with the $50.00 cable.  Then went with the Mono Price cable that was terrible.  The difference between the LinkUp and the Mono Price is huge.  I then decided to install the cable that came with the Lumin that I assumed would not be all that good and it was surprisingly good.  That cable is labeled on the jacket as a Legrand cat 5e 24AWG.

Then I put the $50.00 Link Up cable back in and it bested the supplied cable by a large margin, and the supplied cable is good!.  The transparency and resolution is exemplary, immediately obvious.  So much so that I feel that in order to best it I would have to go for a Shunyata Alpha or an Audioquest Diamond, at 20 times the cost.

The Link Up ethernet cable was a surprise and I thought I would share this as IMO it's a very good start point and may turn out to be a decent end point as well.  The Lumin is still burning in so I won't get into a lot of detail at this time and I won't categorically recommend it, this is an FYI only...

I called my friend who is now coming over on Thursday to hear this for himself.  

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Carlsbad
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #9 - 09/30/22 at 03:29:02
 
Joman,
My friend has Qutest. I bought Dave and he likes to borrow it whenever I'm out of town.  I'm afraid you need Dave.

I have the M-scaler and my opinion is still not formed on it.  Dave sounds great without it.

I went with Innuos Zenith MK3 streamer, very similar to Lumin.

I'm very happy with how things sound.  Right not I'm shopping for cables like you and a new switch. I'm leaning toward the etherregen switch.

For cables I like silver plated for digital.  I've reluctantly tried audioquest because they are so easy to find and the Carbon USB cable from streamer to Dave sounds great.  So I've ordered some Cinnamon ethernet cables.  So I'm warming up to audioquest even though they seem mass produced.

Good luck,
Jerry
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JOMAN
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #10 - 09/30/22 at 05:16:25
 

Thanks for your thoughts thoughts Jerry (CA James didn't put you up to recommending the Dave did he???? 😁.  After tonight I'm quite sure that a Chord DAC is going to be it.  I started out with the Qutest as I found it impossible to decide which DAC would be the one for me off of reviews.  Basically, the reviewers would say they're all good but it depends on your system and tastes (paraphrasing).  I bought a mint pre-owned Qutest so that if I did not like the Chord sound I could easily sell it and recover the investment.  Well I did like what it was doing with some minor reservations.  So I took the next experimental step...

Tonight I received my Plixir Elite BDC power supply with the optional Statement cable.  Chord voids the warrantee if you use a power supply other than the one they supply.  Since my Qutest didn't come with a warrantee I thought I would try it.  Plixer does not make a DC cord with a micro usb end so an adapter was supplied.  The adapter gave me some trouble when hooking up the Statement cable but I did get it working and and the Canadian dealer is sending another Statement cable and adapter, great service!

The Lumin is burning in and the Plixir straight out of the box with the optional Statement cable produced results that were completely unexpected.  As the hours rolled on it all just became more and more engaging.  The Plixer did not change the signature of the Qutest.  It's as if I just went up the Chord ladder so to speak.  How far up I don't know.  

This ought to give you some indication... We ended up listening with the ZROCK2-A in bypass mode and I still do not have my CSP3-A in the chain.  This was Lumin - Qutest w/Plixir Elite BDC straight into the UFO25!!!  I set the the Qutest to the 3V output.

Tomorrow I will be getting my CSP3-A back and will put it in the chain.  I doubt that it will not stay in BUT... I just may end up selling my ZROCK and that is saying a lot, we'll see.

My next move will be to replace the Audioquest Carbon USB Cable.  It's not bad in fact it is quite good.  I got it pre-owned so that I could re-sell should I want to change.  As I mentioned for me its the start point.  I'm thinking of getting the Curious Evolved USB cable.  From what I can tell, it will not change the signature of the Qutest. It may end up doing what the Plixir did...taking it further up the Chord ladder.  

After that I'm going to let everything burn in and then decide what Chord DAC I will end up with.  I probably will try the M Scaler and then decide on the end game DAC, which most likely (VERY likely) will end up being a Chord (Dave 🤔)



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Carlsbad
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #11 - 09/30/22 at 13:36:36
 
I like to keep my system simple.  Streamer to Dave to ZMA.  Touch the signal as little as possible.

I am using the Carbon USB cable and have decided that I'm very happy with it.  I like silver plated cables for digital.  Let me know if your new cable is a significant upgrade.

I don't know all the equipment you mention.
https://www.google.com/search?q=CSP3-A&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS971US971&sourceid=chrome&...

My next step is an audiophile switch.  I'm looking at the Etherregen.  I'm also probably going to audioquest or similar ethernet cables.  I have a 30 ft run to my stereo system.

My buddy with the Qutest borrowed my M-scaler and felt it was quite an improvement.  I think he still thought my Dave is better but I think you get a lot more improvement from an m scaler on a Qutest than a Dave.

I never worry about warranties.  upgrading the power supply on the qutest is a good thing.  My buddy has done the same.  Just don't plug a 19 v power supply into a 5v circuit.  they will never know if you don't screw something up.

You are always welcome to stop by and listen if you are in Socal.

Jerry

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CAJames
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #12 - 09/30/22 at 15:17:32
 
Quote:
Posted by: Carlsbad      Posted on: Today at 13:36:36

...My next step is an audiophile switch.  I'm looking at the Etherregen.  I'm also probably going to audioquest or similar ethernet cables.  I have a 30 ft run to my stereo system...


I mentioned this earlier but there is another thread about using fiber and media converters to optimize your ethernet:

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1633788897

I don't stream but if I did I would almost certainly do something like that. FYI/FWIW.
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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Senn HD-650
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Tony
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #13 - 10/02/22 at 16:11:08
 


CAJames posted:

I mentioned this earlier, but there is another thread about using fiber and media converters to optimize your ethernet:

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1633788897


All of my listening is through streaming.  I have used this connection for about a year with no problems, and I am more than satisfied with the improved connection and sound quality.
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JOMAN
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #14 - 10/02/22 at 18:25:59
 
I just checked the service that comes into our house.  It is Fiber direct in, the switch is a Netgear JGS524, each port delivering up to 2,000 Mbps network speed. The ethernet cables that were used in the renovation are CAT6 23AWG wire. I know that the switch is not the typical switch used in houses but honestly it means little to me.. So I called a friend who is squarely in this field.  University> IBM now manages the IT Div for a Municipality.

He stated that what we have is equivalent to a 2G network and is 10 times faster than typically used in residential.  I think that this along with the Lumin U2 Mini and the Chord DAC is the reason for the results that I am getting which are simply stated outstanding and well beyond expectations.

As I have looked into this a little more and based on my experience with the CAT 8 patch cable, I do believe that ethernet cables make a significant difference.

Add to this the U2 Mini...
A recent review of the Lumin U2 Mini (I take reviews with a grain or two of salt) stated that the difference between the Lumin U1 Mini and the U2 Mini is significant and competes with top tier products.

I have not compared the two and this being my first streamer I really cannot make definitive statements other than what that review commented on is what I am hearing, so much so that I felt that I no longer need the ZROCK2-A, as good as it is, and sold it.  More on that in upcoming posts.

After I finish with a final selection of my end game DAC I will be setting up a NAS system that the U2 Mini can pull from but I will be enlisting the services of my IT friend for that.  Cost will be some beer.
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Carlsbad
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #15 - 10/02/22 at 20:59:33
 
So I've made some progress here with my digital system.  I bought a couple of components that are in the mail.  Haven't hooked them up yet but looking forward to it soon.

First I'm going to talk a bit about digital technology. This is very simple but took me a while to figure out because people don't ever say it.  Maybe they don't know it.  Maybe they do.  So don't be offended if you find this to be obvious.  Conventional internet (non streaming) uses file checking to make sure the downloaded file is IDENTICAL to the source.  Not a single bit dropped.  Makes sense.  Banking and defense for example could not tolerate dropped bits.

Then came along streaming.  Streaming can't take "as long as necessary" to get the recieved file to be "bit perfect" so bits get dropped.  IT geeks developed error correction and declared victory.  And error correcetion is good enough if you're streaming black and white reruns of All in the Family.  But for audiophile applications, we have figured out that we DO hear the difference and error correction isn't good enough.  Thus, the audiphile streaming cottage industry.  I call it a cottage industry because it is TINY compared to the rest of the internet where most internet geeks live.

So I caution you against asking IT professionals for help. They will tell you to buy a netgear switch and $10 cable from amazon.  No need for anything else.  Sure you can get very good sound from off-the-shelf net gear.  But there is more available.

The two items I have in the mail are an EtherRegan audiophile switch and an 8m silver plated ethernet cable.  I do expect significant improvement.

Jerry
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CAJames
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #16 - 10/02/22 at 23:24:24
 
Quote:
Posted by: Carlsbad      Posted on: Today at 20:59:33

...So I caution you against asking IT professionals for help. They will tell you to buy a netgear switch and $10 cable from amazon.  No need for anything else...


I resemble that remark... . FWIW below is what I posted in another thread some time ago:

Many years ago I was told that the reason that the www works is that it was designed to function with packet loss, how does that work with streaming audio?

I have avoided getting into this, mostly just as a matter of principle, but you tee’d this up so perfectly I can’t resist.

The difference is, when dealing with a website, bits really is bits. And if some of the bits don’t make it the computer is perfectly happy to try again and again until it gets it right. Because (to a large extent) time doesn’t matter to the computer.

When dealing with digital music bits are really an analog representation of a square wave propagated across an imperfect media. The “digital” part of digital music is there is a particular voltage that the hardware detects as the  transition between a 0 and 1, but what the voltage actually looks like when it gets out of your streamer or CD player or whatever and across your wires and connectors and interacts with all electromagnetic noise in your house can be very different from the cartoons of “bits” we are shown when we are taught “bits is bits.”   And when exactly that voltage transition happens determines what the output musical waveform looks like. Or, put another way, time matters critically to digital audio.

So, if you stop thinking about digital music as bits and start thinking about it as an analog signal same as e.g. what comes out of your preamp things start to make a lot more sense. At least they do to me, YMMV of course.
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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Senn HD-650
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Carlsbad
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #17 - 10/02/22 at 23:49:17
 
CAJames,
I don't disagree with you at all and if you're the unicorn IT Professional that also does audiophile, you're quite an asset.

Your description expains it, but it became really clear to me when I understood the difference between the lossless internet and streaming.  

So what switch do you recommend?

thanks,
Jerry
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CAJames
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #18 - 10/03/22 at 00:53:00
 
Quote:
Posted by: Carlsbad      Posted on: Yesterday at 23:49:17

...So what switch do you recommend?


I don't LoL. But more below.

First let me say that in "IT" networking is kinda the red-haired stepchild and mostly folks don't want to have anything to do with, much less actually understand it. I managed the network at a mid major research university (UC Santa Barbara) for several years so I know networking pretty well. And because or perhaps in spite of that I want nothing to do with it when it comes to listening to music. The other thing is since I worked on switches pretty much all day, every day, the switch I'd buy is not one I would recommend to regular people. But here are my 2 cents.

I think most people have a main switch that connects to their modem. I wouldn't sweat the switch beyond getting a 2.5 gig model, and replace the wall wart power supply with an appropriate linear power supply. Then I'd run fiber from the switch to my streamer. I would use media converters and short (0.5m) CAT8 ethernet cable to connect the media convert to the switch and to the streamer.

The EtherREGEN switch seems cool, and if you have ~ 1K$ for it, plus a 10 MHz reference clock and quality 75 Ohm BNC cable that would be a sweet solution. But I don't know how much it would buy you relative to the media converters. I would love to A/B that and live close enough to Carlsbad to make the trip .
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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Senn HD-650
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Carlsbad
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #19 - 10/03/22 at 01:16:12
 
I looked at the optcal option.  While the fiber optic itself seemed good, I was concerned the RJ45 to optical converters would be just as noisy as a generic switch.

I do have the upgraded power supply for the EtherRegen.

Jerry
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #20 - 10/04/22 at 17:07:39
 
All good info Gents!

Taking into consideration your experience and also my experience that a $50.00 cable made it stands to reason that attention needs to be given at the source.

So I looked into audio grade switches and audio grade ethernet cables and found that I could spend over $3K for a cable and $4k for a switch.  Ya, I'll jump right on that... NOT!!! (no wonder some feel that audiophiles are concrete evidence of extraterrestrial life)

Quite frankly the results that I'm getting now do not motivate me to do that.  That doesn't mean that I do not think that it's a good idea at a sane price/performance ratio.  I've already ordered an upgrade USB Cable for 50% of what I had budgeted.

So here's my next move... Network Acoustics Muon System - $1,500.00.  depending on how that works out I'll consider a linear power supply for the switch.

The M Scaler will have to wait, 🥺.
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #21 - 10/04/22 at 17:47:39
 

JOMAN said:

So here's my next move... Network Acoustics Muon System - $1,500.00

I am interested in anything contributing to an improved streaming experience within budget possibilities. I had never heard of this unit before, so looking forward to your review.
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #22 - 10/05/22 at 01:54:09
 
I don't know the Muon system, and I have an expensive streamer in my signature line, but in my second system I have a Allo USBridge Signature streamer with the Shanti power supply.  frankly the $4500 streamer isn't a lot better than it and it only cost me $300 used.  I highly recommend it.

Jerry
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #23 - 10/05/22 at 02:14:40
 
I'm (academically) interested in what you think of the muon system. But more so in your USB cable. Sort of against my better judgement, but on the advice of some online friends, I bought a Tabulus Argentus USB cable for about $400 well over a year ago. It made a big improvement over the cheap Audioquest (I forget which one) I'd been using for years. I (sorta) wonder if I could have done as well for less $$$, but I'm not buying any more USB cables.
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #24 - 10/05/22 at 04:07:17
 
frankly the $4500 streamer isn't a lot better than it and it only cost me $300 used.

That is exactly what concerns me.  So your experience and input is welcome and valuable.  It was the difference that the $50.00 ethernet cable made that convinced me that the internet stream couldn't be taken for granted.  Now I want to see how much of a difference the Muon system, filter & cable, will make over the $50.00 ethernet cable.  Network acoustics does have a 30 day trial period, so I thought... only one way too find out.  I sent an email inquiry to them today.  Once I get response I'll finalize my decision.

As far as the USB cable goes CA...  I ordered it last night.  Its coming from Indonesia as there is no Canadian Distributer for these... Vermouth Audio Reference USB.  I was looking at Final Touch Callisto or the Pink Faun and one that is made in the States but it would have cost $2,000.00 and the other two over a $1,000.00.  The VA Ref was considerably less (PM for more info) and it compared very favourably in any of the reviews that I was able to find.  The USB cable that I am using is an Audiquest Carbon and I picked it up used.  I'll be comparing the VA REF. to AQ Carbon.  

When I received the Lumin2, Chord Qutest and the Linkup $50.00 ethernet cable I was not expecting the results that that I got.  That's what motivates me to make it as good as it can be without going to extremes.  My plan is to eventually set up a NAS system as my main digital source.

The rub is that if I do move forward with the Muon system the M Scaler will be put on the back burner, and I was just abut to pull the trigger on one... thanks guys (JIC, that was an attempt at sarcasm).



.
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #25 - 10/05/22 at 13:11:05
 
I received a reply from Network Acoustics.  If I buy the Muon System, filter block and cable, I can return all or one of the items on their 30 day trial.  The plan is to try the filter block with my $50.00 ethernet cable and compare it with the filter with the Muon cable.  My conclusion, is that the main issue is RFI/EMI noise which shapes the incoming data stream.  It seems that Ethernet cables love to pick RFI/EMI noise and happily send it through.

Audio Ethernet cable gurus work with different types of conductors, conductor geometry, shielding and filter blocks to either eliminate it or shape the noise.  Again the difference that the $50.00 cable made was in no way subtle, it even affected the sound stage.

Knowing this I'm having a hard time swallowing $1,500.00 for a system to clean up the network stream... I guess it's better than $7K... I'll likely order it today.  (perhaps I'm one of those audio extraterrestrials, all ears with limited mental acuity)
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #26 - 10/05/22 at 14:11:32
 
Correction... Turns out that the price is in British Pounds so $1,700.00 USD.

Went for it anyway, if it's not worth every penny it's going back!
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #27 - 10/05/22 at 16:59:56
 
Quote:
Posted by: JOMAN      Posted on: Today at 13:11:05

...My conclusion, is that the main issue is RFI/EMI noise which shapes the incoming data stream.  It seems that Ethernet cables love to pick RFI/EMI noise and happily send it through.


I agree. Fiber eliminates that problem completely, and for a fraction of the cost.
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #28 - 10/05/22 at 23:52:32
 
Agreed.  I did try optical cables between my OPPO and at that time Lavry DAC.  I think it was a Lifatec Silflex Cable and it was good.  I then bought a custom SPIDIF RCA cable from Take Five audio which was better and then more recently a Snake River Boomslang SDIF/RCA which was another improvement.  The optical was no slouch though.

I realize that this is between source and DAC and not switch to streamer.  It's probably just me.  Once I went through the above experience it stuck for better or worse.  then there are the limitations of optical cable sample frequency and bit rate transfer, which may be far less of an issue or none at all than it seems to be especially if one builds a system taking account those factors.

Also there are far more optical cables available in the $250.00 or less category although I did find one that was $5,500.00.  As far as optical converters go, same applies.  So yes you can go optical for less and I do think that it may be a viable option.

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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #29 - 10/06/22 at 01:34:47
 
Quote:
Posted by: JOMAN      Posted on: Yesterday at 23:52:32

...I realize that this is between source and DAC and not switch to streamer.  It's probably just me...


Indeed. TOSLINK is an entirely different animal than Ethernet over multimode fiber. FWIW I had a similar experience TOSLINK back in the day. The limiting factor is not the bandwidth of the fiber (which is ginormous) but the quality of the laser. And (thanks to their use for the internet) lasers have gotten much better and cheaper.

For Ethernet, optical is better than copper in every way except cost (and fiber is a little more delicate) exactly because it is less affected by noise and other factors that degrade the signal. This is why all of your network traffic spends 99.999% of its life on fiber.  You should fear noise, not fiber.  If you want specific recommendations I'd be happy to post or PM.
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #30 - 10/06/22 at 02:01:08
 
CAJames,

As one that is following this dialogue, please post what you can.  I admit I do not understand everything said, but I found the discussion interesting and learned a lot.

Thanks.
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #31 - 10/06/22 at 11:53:57
 
I've been digging into this a little more and came across this article:

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/how-to-optimize-digital-streaming-with...

While optical certainly is superior to ethernet cable and the implementation as shown fairly straightforward, the cost is another matter when taking into consideration the cost of the necessary components if one goes top tier.

If I were to implement what is outlined in the Absolute Sound article I would go for the Sonore Optical Module & Uptone Audio LPS 1.2 or the Keces P3.

If only one of each of these was needed then $1,000.00+ is the cost.  If more than one is needed then the cost goes up.  The optical cable is the only component that results in a cost reduction.  This is not necessarily a deal breaker.

What could become a deal breaker is having to mess with putting it all together.  For a long time I've been messing with "tweaking" audio to get to where I am and now I do not want to repeat the process as I go to digital unless I absolutely have to.

Convenience and functionality is now becoming more of a consideration than it ever was before.  When deciding on a DAC I was struck by how many multi role units there are on the market - streamer/DAC/Preamp.  I did end up going in a direction that is more involved and inconvenient because of cost and my confidence level in the performance of such components, unless I were to budget well in excess of $10K.  But this will likely be the last time that I will do it.

In comparison to the set of the top system as outlined in the Absolute Sound article the Network Acoustics Muon is, for me, a far more convenient solution and comparatively speaking, taking all components into consideration, not that much more money.  Basically, plug and play.

With one caveat, IF it works as well as is reported.  Nothing stands still.  I believe that over the past ten years research has produced alternatives.  As I do not have an optical set up I will not be able to do a direct comparison but I will be able to compare it to my current set up.

I have ordered the Muon System.  If it does not work as reported it goes back and an optical set up is next.  I'll post the results after I get it and spend some time with it.

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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #32 - 10/06/22 at 13:47:14
 
I have a buddy who went optical with Small Green Computer for about $3K.  

My EtherRegen is supposed to arrive friday.  I'll post results.

When do you get your Muon?

Jerry
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #33 - 10/06/22 at 14:40:26
 
FWIW this is what I'd do between your switch and streamer. All from Amazon so easy to return if you don't like it (or it doesn't actually work).

Pair of MM media converters:

https://www.amazon.com/Gigabit-SFP-Dual-Transceiver-1000Base-Tx/dp/B099JF9KJD/re...

OM3 LC-LC MM fiber:

https://www.amazon.com/Cable-Matters-Multimode-Duplex-Fiber/dp/B00X7TEWL4/ref=sr...

(I'd get at least 30 meters, make sure you have plenty of slack at both ends)

And connect to your switch and streamer with 0.5M of your favorite CAT8 Ethernet cable.

I'd also replace the wall wart power supply at the streamer side with a 5V LPS:

https://www.amazon.com/Audiophile-Desktop-Adapter-Regulate-Raspberry/dp/B07T44S4...

You can do it at the switch side too, but I'm not sure what it buys you unless you are already running your switch off a LPS.

And you might need something like this:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01HORSXZ0/ref=sspa_dk_detail_0?psc=1&pd_rd_i=B01HORSX...

To adapt the DC connector.

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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #34 - 10/06/22 at 15:55:59
 

CAJames,

This is very helpful, thanks.  Do you do home visits? Smiley

I am going to give this a try and will report back on the results.

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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #35 - 10/06/22 at 19:14:31
 
My standard line is "you can't afford my house call rate."

I'm looking forward to how it works out for you.

And also what Jerry thinks of the EtherRegen switch. I'll note that the EtherRegen supports an optical input so it can function as a media converter, and with a linear power supply and an external reference clock a high end one at that.
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #36 - 10/06/22 at 20:27:04
 
Hey Jerry,

Next week, possibly Thursday.


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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #37 - 10/07/22 at 04:34:25
 
I'm not sure the external clock on my EtherRegen is much use unless I have a DAC or Streamer (or both) with external clock input.  I think the real value is when you can run all 3 off the same clock for perfect synchronization.  

Neither my DAC, M-scaler, or streamer wll accept an external input.

Jerry
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #38 - 10/07/22 at 15:16:07
 
Quote:
Posted by: Carlsbad      Posted on: Today at 04:34:25

I'm not sure the external clock on my EtherRegen is much use unless I have a DAC or Streamer (or both) with external clock input.  I think the real value is when you can run all 3 off the same clock for perfect synchronization.


Ethernet runs on its own time, different than what DACs use so to having all of them synced isn't the issue. Or put another way, switches aren't doing digital to analog conversion so there isn't anything to sync.

In theory having your switch connected to a precision clock improves the accuracy of the data stream by reducing jitter. You could look at it as yet another layer beyond what we are trying to accomplish with e.g. CAT8 cable, fiber and "audiophile" switches.  Or put yet another way, if Ethernet cables matter then the clock the switch is using matters too. But that is all JMO/FWIW.


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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #39 - 10/09/22 at 13:20:43
 
OK. I got the EtherRegen and the upgraded LPS 1.2 power supply. Sounds great.   Added detail, isolation of each note, very low noise floor.  I first got my M-scaler when I was hooked up to wireless internet and felt like it didn't add a think and took away the smoothness in the recording. sounded better without it.  Hooked up wired internet and it came around.  Now with etherregen, it is absolutely flawless.  So a note that if you are considering a Chord M-scaler with your DAC, get your ethernet sorted out first.

My only complaint is that they both but especially the power supply run hot--about 125 deg f.  Directions that come with is say "don't worry about the heat".  But I moved it out of the cabinet to an open air location.  (temp given is open air).

Jerry
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #40 - 10/09/22 at 18:51:44
 
Last year, a Forum discussion on removing network noise with media converters, referenced above, caught my attention. My primary music source is streaming, so any improvements or tweaks to that process interests me. With excellent results, I installed those media converters from last year into my system.

The current discussion on Lumin U2 Mini also caught my attention. I am familiar with EtherRegan but discouraged by the cost. I sought a more affordable upgrade to what I already have. CAJames's post fit the bill. Following his steps, I purchased two new media converters that were more expensive than last year's model but seemingly better built. The most significant upgrade, however, is to the power supply used on the streamer-only side of the connection.

This power supply unit is a vast improvement over the wall wart that comes bundled with the media converter and may account for the overall improvement in sound realized.

When I decided to try this upgrade, my bottom line was if there were no improvements in SQ, I would return everything. I did that recently, returning the SVS Micro sub when I could not get it to outperform Randy's bass baffle. This updated media converter, however, stays -  thumbs up. Maybe next year, I can try EtherRegan.

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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #41 - 10/09/22 at 21:55:05
 
Good to hear you both got nice payoffs for your investments.

I was sold on linear power supplies a couple years ago when I swapped out the stock SMPS for my laptop with a LPS. Wow, big improvement. Now I don't want them anywhere near my system.
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #42 - 10/12/22 at 13:23:38
 
Yesterday I received the Vermouth Reference USB cable and the Statement DC power cable for the Plixir Elite LPS.  I had ordered the Statement cable with the Plixer but was sent the 2.5 instead of the 2.1 barrel.  The Network Acoustics Muon system is due in next Monday.

Both cables require a 100 - 120 hour burn in.  The Vermouth Reference starts to come into its own around the 60 hour mark.  That being said I won't comment on the results thus far in any detail other than the first hour was a bit of a challenge and the next two began to see changes.

What I can say is that the cables and power supply down stream of the Lumin U2 Mini really began to show what this streamer is capable of, which so far has exceeded expectations and now has me scratching my head at times.

The Plixer/Statement combo and the  Vermouth Reference cable seem to have as part of their design the ability to filter DC noise and any USB noise.  The positive results of that aspect becomes immediately evident.  I do not perceive this as "filtering" the sound only the noise that is inherent in power supplies and USB interface.

At this point I wonder how much of a difference the Muon can make.  Granted it is a passive filtering system designed to eliminate ethernet noise, so I guess I'll see when I install it.  If it does continue in the direction that the Reference USB and Plixer are going, then my take on the capabilities with streaming using a good streamer will completely change.
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #43 - 10/15/22 at 04:58:23
 
Today I received the Muon System.  The run in instruction clearly say to give it 20 hours at which point it will start to open up, become more resolving and dynamic.  At 100 hours it becomes more resolved and lively, and fuller in the midrange with more body.  At 100 hours it will sound as it was designed to.

The next 20 hours are going to be... challenging.

I did try my Linkup ethernet cable with the filter and out of the box the combination was very impressive.   Putting the Muon cable back, there are some aspects that are better and others that are not. Based on the comparison, my gut tells to be patient as in the end this system, Muon filter and cable will be better (doesn't make it any easier now!).
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #44 - 10/22/22 at 00:56:16
 
This a 27 hour update on the Lumin U2 Mini, with the Muon System, Vermouth Reference USB cable and Plixir LPS Statement cable...runing all three in at the same time.  First time for everything...

First regarding the Muon System and Network Acoustics.  Indeed it is now changing becoming as described in the instruction manual: more open, resolving and dynamic.

I was concerned when I first received it.  The filter was a keeper but wasn't sure about the ethernet cable.  I contacted Network Acoustics as I only had 30 days to get 120 hours on it.  Rich Trussell responded and said to run it in and not to be overly concerned about the 30 days.  Dealing with Rich is a lot like dealing with Steve Deckert and Don Thomas and that was very reassuring!

As far as what the Lumin and Muon sound like at 27 hours... Tonight I listened to Yellow Brick Road Deluxe Remastered.  Started off with Funeral For A Friend/Love lies Bleeding.  I know this song and recording well.  Over the years I've played it on vinyl and now streaming.  

For the first time I was completely and totally creeped out by the intro!  The wind starts howling way off in the distance and deep in the stage.  Every nuance is audible and real.  Then the organ cuts in and the "procession" keeps getting closer to you with layer on layer of sound and music.  Benny And The Jets (live)... the jets - tsss is emphasized with no sibilance.

What's missing? Body.  The sound is supposed to become "fuller in the midrange with more body".  I have a heavy travel month coming up so I won't be able to comment on that until late November.  I will see this through to the 120 hour mark as I am intrigued with the results so far.

One thing his for sure, streaming with the right set up is, shall I say... an audiophile format.
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #45 - 10/22/22 at 16:31:06
 

JOMAN,

Thanks for your review.  Good to hear about your progress, and I look forward to the next installment.
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #46 - 10/22/22 at 18:16:12
 
Quote:
Posted by: JOMAN      Posted on: Today at 00:56:16

...One thing his for sure, streaming with the right set up is, shall I say... an audiophile format.


Good to hear this is working out for you. I'm curious if you have the interest and/or ability to play files directly through the Lumin? That would be an interesting comparison IMO.

Re: the cable, can't you stream through the cable with the amp off? Seems like you could run it pretty much 24/7 to get hours on it. Or just use it to hook up a computer and play youtube videos.

Final FWIW I've been using Funeral for a Friend as a test/demo track since I got the SACD close to 20 years ago. (20 years? how is that possible...)


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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #47 - 10/23/22 at 00:47:23
 
Hey CA,

Yes you can connect SSD storage and browse through the Lumin App.  Definitely plan to do this, I'll be looking into this in December.

I don't see why I can't stream through the cable with the amp off.  Just never thought of it.  Still thinking analogue,  Thanks!  I'll confirm with Network Acoustics.

As for Funeral For A Friend, I guess that dates me too, indeed where has the time gone???  What really creeped me out was the initial low level wind then the bell so well defined and separated, then as the level increased and instrumental was added it really gave me the impression that a funeral march was coming toward me.  As the level increased further I felt that I was being drawn into this procession.  Honestly, the experience was both good and bad at the same time, just plain creepy!

Still a way to go and the jury is still out.

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JOMAN
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Posts: 763
Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #48 - 10/29/22 at 23:25:48
 
I went away last week and left the Lumin U2 Mini and Muon System on 24/7 with the CSP3A and UFO25 off.  This is 148 hour update.  I was very tired yesterday when I god home, despite that my curiosity motivated me to give a casual listen to see/hear if there was a difference.  At that time there were about 131 hours on the front end.  I started at 5:00pm and kept on listening until 9:00pm.  So much for the casual listen!

As more than one item was burning in I'm going to list them one by one even though each contributed to the other to create a synergy that is well beyond my expectations of streaming.

1. Lumin U2 Mini:  I cannot compare this streamer to others as this is the first and only one that I have experienced, and it is most definitely staying.  Based on what I am hearing and am comparing to my experience of various front end systems that I have owned or heard, I have absolutely no desire or curiosity to try any other streamer.  

One of the sources that I have had was a Linn LP12, Ekos Arm, Troika cartridge and Lingo PS.  What I am comparing is not analogue vs digital.  What I am saying is that although different from the analogue source I am enjoying the Lumin U2 Mini just as much and that was my objective.

2. Network Acoustics Muon System:  With very few exceptions you will have to do something about the ethernet source, whether that be an audiophile switch, optical, or a filter and ethernet cable, or a combination of those in order for any streamer to be at it's best with few exceptions.

After 148 hours now, the change is exactly as described in the Muon Guide.  Actually I was a little surprised.  If (BIG IF) I decide to add an acoustic switch just to see what the difference would be I would wait until Network Acoustics developed another.  I could easily be very happy with the Muon System on it's own.

3. Vermouth Reference USB cable.  It's obviously a factor as it is the connection between the Lumin and DAC.  In comparison to the Audioquest Carbon there is no comparison.  I am NOT saying that the Audioquest Carbon is not good in it's own rite, it is and may be good enough for someone else.  It's just not in the same league as the Vermouth Reference USB cable

4. Chord Qutest DAC w/Plixir LPS and Statement Cable:  This was a starting point to see if the Chord Sound is what would be a good fit for me.  It is.  Having said that I will be going up the Chord ladder not because I feel that I am missing something but now I am prepared to invest in what hopefully become my end game DAC.

Honourable mention to the CSP3-A/UFO25 w/Cryotone tubes (especially the EL84s) and the OMEGA Vintage 8 HO, here's why...
Last night after listening to the system I felt that it could use a touch more body.  So I set the output voltage of the Chord Qutest to 3 volts and forgot to turn down the volume, I did say that I was tired.  The song that was cued was Funeral For a Friend/Love Lies Bleeding.  WELL... yes there was more body at peaks of 97 dB and an average of 87.7 dB.  It was not hard to listen to in fact I didn't run over to the CSP3-A to turn down the volume... give me more!  The only time that there was any smearing was when at the peak the room acoustics were expressing their displeasure.

Good thing my wife was out shopping with our daughter.  If she would have been home I would have been bleeding!

This ends my comments on my entry into digital and streaming.

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francesdenson
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Re: Lumin U2 Mini
Reply #49 - 05/05/23 at 10:16:35
 
Thanks for the amazing post. Keep sharing more post like this one.
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