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Please forget rhodium (Read 3028 times)
Arpin
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Please forget rhodium
06/29/22 at 01:34:58
 
I’m a long time audiophool who finally ventured into DIY cables last year out of both cost necessity and top theoretical quality in cables that I couldn’t find from cable makers short of $2k. So of course I started out with rhodium plated plugs. They’re the best… supposedly. Well, it’s far worse than that. Rhodium is anathema to anything hifi.

Where to start:
  • I discovered that nearly any plating of rhodium will be 1micron at maximum thickness.
  • Rhodium has just above 50% the conductivity of copper, and only 70% the conductivity of gold.


Sonically, because of the thinner plating and lower conductivity, rhodium has a hard and brittle sound. Furthermore, rhodium causes a readily perceivable decrease in the volume regardless of where it is placed within an audio chain. The brittleness of the rhodium sound can be heard any time it is placed anywhere in the signal chain.

Maybe, just maybe, rhodium could be fine for power cables, but I don’t think there is any real benefit one will attain versus gold plated copper or just solid copper power cables.

After investing about $50 in rhodium plugs, I’ve been replacing each one, one at a time, and literally throwing the rhodium plugs into the garbage. The sonic differences are readily apparent and rhodium plugs are easily outclassed by 3-5micron gold plated plugs which typically cost less money. Silver plated plugs are a major step up in performance if using pure silver wire. But if using pure silver wire, and your system is over $500 in value, I implore you to use solid silver plugs with pure silver wire. Your ears will thank you.

Sadly, rhodium costs 2-4x and sounds half as good as gold plated. Yes, rhodium sounds better than nickel…

Rhodium should have zero place in hifi.
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Rivieraranch
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Re: Please forget rhodium
Reply #1 - 06/29/22 at 12:58:39
 
Fancy safety razors were plated in rhodium, which has become very expensive lately. So the replaters have switched to using nickel with chrome, i.e. bright nickel.

Rhodium is also brittle.
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CAJames
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Re: Please forget rhodium
Reply #2 - 06/29/22 at 19:53:55
 
I’m not disputing what you heard but your experience is (very) different from mine. I bought my first cables with Rhodium connectors many years ago and started making my own cables a couple years ago so maybe the rhodium situation was different but for me the rhodium plated bananas and XLRs sounded the best, and also last very well. The latter I think is a big selling point because gold is soft and silver and copper are both soft and subject to corrosion. And some of my all time favorite tubes have Rh pins. I just spent a bunch of time in another thread saying listening trumps “science” when you want to know what sounds best but I will drop a little bit of it here. Think about this:

If you  consider a 1 meter Copper cable with 1 micron of Rhodium plating on the connector that means there is 1 billion times more Cu in the signal path and even if Rh had only a tiny fraction of the conductivity of Cu it isn’t going to make any noticeable difference to the volume. As it is 1 micron of Rh adds as much resistance as 2 microns of Cu. I suspect that rather than rhodium itself being the problem you got crappy connectors. A poor connection is much more consistent with a noticeable drop in volume than a few microns of rhodium.  JMO as always.

P.S. re: brittle. I don’t want to get into a whole thing on strength of materials but brittle vs. ductile doesn’t really matter to connectors, because the aren’t subject to shear stress, in normal use.
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Arpin
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Re: Please forget rhodium
Reply #3 - 06/29/22 at 22:39:06
 
Hi CAJames. I think we've dialogued before in previous threads. Great to chat again.

It does seem we have had divergent experiences, but perhaps there is overlap somewhere, and maybe I'm throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I'd like to rank my experience (best to worst) with connector types (excluding wire) for an overview:
    1) Pure solid silver can't be beat?! I am using solid silver phono cartridge clips, solid silver RCAs for my turntable, CD player, and portable CD player. In both CD cases I upgraded from silver plating over bronze and the sonic difference was massive.
    2) Pure solid copper. I can't hear a difference between bare wire and solid copper bananas but can hear a difference between both gold and copper plated [over brass] bananas.
    3) Thick silver over tellurium copper (~90% conductivity). Here I am using AECO silver plated phono plugs for my reference headphone and portable IEM. There was no competition at all from either my gold plated brass or rhodium plated brass phonos that I replaced.
    4) Thick silver over brass. I am using this for all of my jacks on both my hifi reference and headphone reference. Each was an upgrade over gold plated brass, and the difference was massive.
    5) Silver or copper over brass. I am using these on a wider range of less mission critical systems, and they sound really good only when they match with silver or copper wire respectively. I've swapped them both ways and there is an notable subjective difference when the wire material doesn't match the plating material.
    6) Thick (3-5micron) gold over brass. I've been replacing my rhodium plated brass plugs with these and have been blown away by the difference in loudness, depth, and smoothness relative to the rhodium. Frankly, the difference was unexpected.
    7) Thin gold or rhodium plating over brass. I bought rhodium expecting high performance, but have been duly disappointed to hear no difference from thin gold plated brass.


Of course this isn't an exhaustive list or set of comparisons. Also, none of what I just wrote technically refutes your claim that the base material under the plating is very important. In fact, from what I've heard, I agree with your position. And perhaps you would agree that rhodium over brass is likely to not sound as good as rhodium over solid copper or rhodium over tellurium copper. A possible point of agreement being that rhodium on a poor base may actually sound no different than or worse than a gold plating over the same brass.

Because I have only been purchasing rhodium over bronze, it is very true that I cannot say with certainty that rhodium over solid copper or rhodium over tellurium copper. But usually, due to the cost of the rhodium itself, 30x that of gold, the platings are usually 1micron. I saw only one plug that used a 5micron thick plating of rhodium. Worse is that the rhodium plated plugs typically cost more than just gold plating. And more annoying than this is that the very best plugs and jacks I've heard are either solid copper or silver, or have very very thick platings of silver.

My best DIY cable I've made is inside my tonearm and runs solid silver phono cartridge clips to 30ga solid silver air-gapped in teflon to solid silver bullet style RCA connectors. My second best DIY cable is my 20ga solid silver wire air gapped inside teflon running between bullet style solid silver RCA connectors. The cost of building these cables was a fraction of what most high-end cables cost (1/10 to 1/20 depending on make).

I could see rhodium over pure copper sounding good. But in my experiments, the platings actually affected the sound. Copper wire to copper plated RCAs definitely sounded markedly better than copper wire to silver plated RCAs. When I discovered this it was totally unexpected. As was the problem with the sound quality of rhodium over brass. And most all of the rhodium plated plugs are rhodium over brass, which from my personal experience is definitely at the bottom of the list in terms of sound quality.

The conductivity of rhodium is less than gold, and there is a notable loudness and depth of sound difference between thick gold plated brass and rhodium plated brass. This loudness and depth of sound differential goes to an extreme when comparing rhodium plated brass to very thick silver plated tellurium copper (AECO).

It's just very hard for me to even understand where I would want to use rhodium in a signal chain based on what I've heard. So much so that I simply throwing away my rhodium plugs because I can't find any possible use for them moving forward. And I am a pack rat of anything hifi, so this is saying something.

You mentioned rhodium plated tube pins. Rhodium is far more conductive than nickel and steel which many of the tube pins are made of. And it is uncertain as to the thickness of any gold plating that would be applied to tube pins. So I could see rhodium plated tube pins as having a possible benefit but I'm skeptical (without experience) that rhodium plated tube pins will outperform gold plated tube pins. But as I stated, I don't have much experience with tubes. Despite being on the Decware forum (weird to me).

But wrapping up, the cost of rhodium plated whatever tends to carry a significant price differential that I can't see being worth it.
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BicycleJoe Lo-Fi
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Re: Please forget rhodium
Reply #4 - 07/03/22 at 19:13:36
 
These people were contenders for the most sophisticated state of the art turntable but their head guru Lloyd Walker just recently passed away. His knowledge is lost to time immemorial. The Proscenium Black Diamond VI Master Reference Turntable was an artistic statement. It is because he designed this turntable that I take this product that normally I would consider snake oil seriously. Check it out.  

Quantum Silver Contact Treatment with Nanocrystal Technology for audio and video systems. Working at the level of individual atoms and molecules, Quantum Silver streamlines the flow of electrons providing a pathway for the electrical signal to travel that is pristine down to the atomic level.  The effect is one of smooth, clean and clear sound that is a treat for your senses.

https://walkeraudio.com/product/quantum-silver-treatment-for-contacts/
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will
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Re: Please forget rhodium
Reply #5 - 07/04/22 at 01:09:26
 
I think there are so many ways to make connectors and wire, and so many variations of metals based on purity and how it is drawn, annealed, etc, that categorically calling a metal better or worse is often too little of the story to be complete.

After messing around too long with plated wires and never loving them except on occasion, I started cutting out the middle man, and going for more carefully made things that were not so much designed to save money.

Since then I have used soft annealed 999 silver in oversized teflon, UP-OCC silver in oversized teflon, 5N in cotton, UP-OCC in cotton, UPOCC in teflon .... and though all of these were nice, and having good specs and reviews compared to many, the UPOCC were all better in terms of everything.... speed, translucency, complexity, air, smoothness, etc, etc. Oversized teflon with UPOCC is the most natural and complete sounding to me, but more difficult to do and use...I use it most as ground for interior cable geometries. Factory teflon wire I tried has more shimmer. Where cotton tends softer and smoother, equally "good." But for regular use, all-in-all, Neotech UPOCC silver/teflon is my favorite.

Same story with coppers... I have tried similar variants as with silver, and the same results but with that particular copper "sheen" and complexity that quality copper has. That said, though I use it in places, sometimes in combination with good silver, and/or silver/gold.... I like it as a mixer, but not exclusively in general. Even in amps, to me, UPOCC copper has more self-sound than UPOCC silver so I use it mainly when silver is "too much," and needs a little moderation.

As to connectors. I have tried lots.... RCAs, XLRs, and binding posts, IECs.... and as with wires, everything apparently matters... all materials, thicknesses, low mass versus various levels of higher mass....  And to me, with quality materials and designs, no rules seem to hold up about this or that one being better or worse... Though I recognize tendencies for sure and use them in design, which is "better" can often depend on what I am putting these ends on. For RCAs, of all I have tried, I prefer low mass... though one wildcard in this concept, DHLabs component RCAs seem nicely resolving and "out of the way" to me.

For ICs KLE are my overall fav ends considering sound and value. Even if price were no object, I might prefer the plain purity of sound from KLE Absolutes over the more obviously clear and resolving WBT silvers. I stopped using copper ends on ICs years ago, preferring high quality silver. I might feel differently about some really nicely made UPOCC copper ends though. And lower quality "sharper" sounding silvers I can't really get into either. Or some of the pop retro cable ends like switchcraft... can't really use them here... too slow and masked for me.

For power, of all the "copper/gold" cable ends I have (Furutech, Neotech, and a nicely made one from a Chinese maker, all sound different though they share that gold on copper sound.... The Neotechs have UPOCC copper, and the others "pure copper." I think I can hear it too, the Neotechs more fast transparent and neutral, though not necessarily "better." Depends on how a cable needs to be tuned. I also have some pure copper, and some pure copper with very pure silver plate.... Then Rhodium on copper. My favs of these Rhodiums are actually pretty high mass, with carbon covering... looking like Furutech (maybe OEM?), but coming from a Chinese seller at a fraction of the cost... And I get great sound from these in the right cable, and right component.

I have a lot of cables I have made/explored (using ready-made Furutech and Neotech cable) and making my own, and trying different ends. And each raw cable seemed to excel with "the right" end, and that depends on the cable's wires, coatings, gauges, geometry, damping, etc, etc.

Having tested these things over and over, I never pay any attention to the classically quoted conductivity specs simply because what I hear is what I hear, and I am not concerned about specs if it sounds better to me... That said, with some rhodium ends I have used in ICs, the Rhodium can tend to brittle and hard, but in others, those same traits more refined, they sound clear, smooth, dynamic, and solid. And these traits work better with nice UPOCC wires, especially bringing out copper nicely, and the good quality copper, richening and making the Rhodium sound more complex can be a nice blend. So no matter the metals and constructions, to me, if the end is good quality, with good materials, it will sound good in the right setting, but may not be as good in another...

Finally, I have made a lot of cables, ICs, power, and internal hookup, and as far as I can tell, if they are high quality parts, they all have a sound, but there are not a lot of exclusive "right or wrongs" as to the particular metals used... that is if it is done really well.

Also, to me mass is pretty big, often times lower mass seeming more open, faster, complex and complete....and more mass, more full/thick and forceful. That said I do have a few heavy connectors or cable ends I prefer, but overall, many that are lighter I like better for shear reference spaciousness and resolution. Same with cable gauge. Whether power, IC, or internal, I am always finding a delicate gauge balance to be more complete and working across recordings, doing it all better than a little bigger gauge or a little smaller for a given position.

Interestingly, all four heavy connectors I like involve Rhodium... The "Furutech" carbon NCF power cable ends, some "Furutech" NCF balanced ends (same basic design, both Chinese) a "real" Furutech Headphone jack on a UPOCC copper cable, and some Cardas binding posts with silver plate on quality copper with a Rhodium "flash." These are all heavy, and I can't hear a problem. The Cardas copper/silver/rhodium binding posts are in my amp just now, and they were a pretty pronounced upgrade to the Stock Torii IV binding posts... I put them in after a lot of PS bypass exploration, as well as coupling caps, interior wires, resistors, etc... and it was really notable, my wife thinking this may have been the most obvious single upgrade up to that time (now many years ago). They actually felt louder, but it may have been mostly that they were more fast, resolving and spacious sounding. Not sounding "rhodium" to me... they are just a really nice posts.

And let's not neglect geometry and damping, to me two huge players in cable sound when using transparent materials.

BicycleJoe,

Thanks for the reminder of the Walker silver coating. I got some years ago, from mapleshade, which memory says was based on Walker's... but then memory!@#$%^&* I liked it back then though. But then I thought it started sounded a little dulling and thickish, though pretty resolving... a weird feel. I had a similar issue with Deoxit Gold until finding it was a little thick and dull sounding unless I quickly wiped it off, leaving a very thin coat. Then it was really pretty good sounding... improving things. Then I tried Cardas, and it worked really well without a lot of rigamarole so used it for some years. But finally, one of the best clarifying contact enhancers I have tried was Graphene oil by Madscientist. I got a little bitty tube sample and it has lasted for a long time... just a very thin coat quickly wiped off on interior ribbon connectors, or cable ends...and it does that good enhancer thing nice and transparently.

Anyway, after all this, it seems that, like cables, wires, and ends, there are a lot of ways to make contact enhancers better or worse, including application. Having a better handle on all this, I have been meaning to retry the Mapleshade... Maybe I was using it too thick...so thanks for the reminder. I will try it once I finish this. Also maybe I will try it thinned down with some Squalane oil and add a touch of graphene powder. Could be good, so thanks for the reminder.

Smiley




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GroovySauce
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Re: Please forget rhodium
Reply #6 - 07/04/22 at 17:28:44
 
I have a few rhodium Furutech ends on my PCs. My Torus AVR has a Furutech NCF rhodium outlet, Oyaide R1 and Oyaide SWO-GX. Currently, my favorite is the R1. I’m going to wait another 1,000 hours with power draw on the Furutech before really listening to the different outlets.

Rhodium has an insanely long burning / seasoning time. I guess 2,000+ hours. The first 500-800 hours can sound terrible. I few times I almost gave up on it. My brother kept telling me to stick with it and deal with the $&%* sound. Taking 3 months of solid use to offer what it can do is crazy.

Once rhodium has settled, it can sound very good.
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will
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Re: Please forget rhodium
Reply #7 - 07/05/22 at 04:43:16
 
Interesting about the rhodium burnin length Groovy. I actually forgot what that was like.

After getting all my amps all burnt in, I was doing a lot of modifications, and could not figure out how to do that optimally with green parts. Too much time for burnin on a lot of them to easily track improvements or disappointments.

So I bought my FryBaby2 (now a Frybaby3), and not that the device is all that lovable to "be with," but I have always seriously disliked burnin, and the Frybaby takes care of the rougher parts of that for me in silence, so I sort of love it.

One of the best parts about it, as it burns in parts, wires and cables (I have not tried it on components yet), they open and speed up, sounding pretty close to resolved, balanced and musical on the Frybaby. Then playing music finishes the burnin process and by then it is enjoyable, and for the most part taking just another 3-10 days to sound close to right for most things.

Having used it on hundreds of parts, wires, and cables, for folks who could benefit from this, I am amazed at how habitual "audiophile" bias around burnin devices holds so many serious listening people back from enjoying the music more! At least this one seems to do pretty well for me.

Smiley
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Re: Please forget rhodium
Reply #8 - 07/05/22 at 17:01:49
 
Will,

I've considered getting a Frybaby or a similar device. With the modding you do makes it a must have tool.

Checked the Hagerman website, they make a Frycorder2 which is specific for power cables.

The testimonials state that it improves PCs even after 1,000+ hours.
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will
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Re: Please forget rhodium
Reply #9 - 07/05/22 at 22:35:25
 
Yes those testimonials look good. Speed of PC burnin seems quite impressive.

This one was interesting to me:

"I bought your Frycorder2 in 2020. I have just plugged it this week with a power cord we are selling, the improvement is amazing. More relax, more black ground. I have compared it to the same cable but naturally burnt 1000 hours and the difference is huge, with only 18 hours of burn in."

I have done power cords on the Frybaby 2, but it was a long time ago.... I recall the three wires, including ground, was a challenge for me.... I did work it out though one way of another. I made a few rigs to hook to the supplied speaker cable jacks using a 14 gauge copper wire with an alligator clip soldered on the outside end, making easy hookup to things other than the RCA and Speaker cables jacks that come with it.... like power cord ends and strings of parts or wires.

Now it seems the Frybaby 3, having two sets of RCA's, can do two sets of ICs, or speaker cables, or one of each. Or double the parts loops at once, as well as having an added ground connection. I am guessing this ground could be used for power cable ground while the using + and - connections for the neutral and hot AC??? I have not asked about this though.

Also I don't how the specs variations of the two effect burnin, but my recollection was that the power cables here did burn in well... but I think I may have had them on a week or more.

Not a lot to be found online about Frybabys last I tried, but if interested, it might be worth emailing about PCs and using a Frybaby versus FryCorder in terms of burnin qualities. If the Frybaby is as, or near as good, maybe just taking longer, the Frybabay may be a better buy as you can use it for other cables, wires, caps, resistors or components (by reports). Seems folks also use them for regular cable "touchup."
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Re: Please forget rhodium
Reply #10 - 07/05/22 at 23:04:03
 
I revisited the Frycorder website. I downloaded the manual something jumped out to me.

"To burn-in a power cord, just plug into the FryCorder2, and then into a power outlet.
It is that simple! The FryCorder2 circuit immediately starts up and sends a signal into
the power cord and house wiring. A yellow LED inside the case will blink indicating
proper operation. The burn-in signal travels through power wiring until it reaches the
utility transformer
, which does not have enough bandwidth to pass the signal.
Depending on loading and impedance of the AC wiring, the signal will be a
combination of currents at the lower frequencies and voltages at the higher. This
method of power delivery is most effective for the break-in of both conductors and
insulators, resulting in a better and quieter delivery of power to your audio
equipment. "

So would the Frycorder2 also condition the house wiring? Seems like it would. Which leads to the question. Can it over cook the cables? If so, will it over cook the house wiring? Some people have reported that it is possible to over cook cables which makes them start to sound lean and brittle.

I am curious about cooking the ground wire of my cables. It might be easier to use the FryBaby3 to cook the ground cable as the FryCorder2 doesn’t mention anything about the ground getting cooked.
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Re: Please forget rhodium
Reply #11 - 07/05/22 at 23:44:05
 
Interesting about how the FryCorder works. Looks like it makes the the Power Cord connections and wires loop from house AC through the Frycorder and back. So it does sound like it would condition your house wires, but I wonder if it could be powerful enough to over-burn all that???

I expect that the Fyrcorder conditions all three wires and connectors of a PC.

But you can condition ground with the Frybaby2, just run the "circuit" of two connections with ground as one... like neutral and ground. And as I mentioned, hopefully the new ground connector on the Frybaby3 allows hooking up all three at once?

I have heard tales of over-burning, but for me, thinking it works out with these lower power rigs seeming pretty flexible without apparent damage. I have burned in the same long burnin caps a week to maybe ±4 weeks, and not heard any notable issues.... but most often I run some resistors between cap groups in a cap/resistor loop, so that may mitigate damage? That said, I thought I over burned some Grover ICs back in the day, it seeming leaner than usual after the Frybaby... but it smoothed/filled out with a few days of play. Coming off the frybaby cleaner and leaner is pretty typical in my experience right after burnin, then with music time, whatever it is will fill out, extend lower in the balance, and smooth.

Have you run across anything conclusive about what actually happens with over-burn, the technical and long term sound effects, and if it is really possible with these lower power rigs to damage things in meaningful ways??? Have you read that they stay perpetually lean and brittle after over-burning? And if so, I wonder if this is more of an issue with more powerful rigs like Audiodharma's  cable cooker, which has temped me a few times, but so far the Frybaby does me fine here.

One thing I don't like about Hagerman's stuff is lean documentation and instructions... But I have written him several times, and though his comments sometimes are a little rushed and cryptic, he seems to get back fast with useful answers. It would be interesting to see what he has to say about these things.
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Re: Please forget rhodium
Reply #12 - 07/06/22 at 12:32:12
 
Will, you make a good point about it not being powerful enough to over burn. With the FryCorder2 it seems the frequency sweeps are doing the work.

So many questions about burning in a cable or component. Is it voltage or current that is more impactful? Does it need 1,000,000 volts or will a few volts do it? Is frequency the most important?

A cable manufacturer was saying he tried a few of the cookers like the AD Cable Cooker. He said. Eventually, the sound turned lean and brittle. I didn’t follow up more.

Will, I noticed that your signature line starts with “All Modified:” I love it!
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Re: Please forget rhodium
Reply #13 - 07/06/22 at 16:22:55
 
I have never even seen a Frycorder.

But, can someone help me understand the concept of "over burn?"

I get that cables "wear out" and should be replaced when the metal begins to change.
Is this overburn causing somthing similar to this aging? Is it analogous to this issue?
Is it similar to decrystalization of the metals as cables age, like you have force-aged them?
Is it like an electrolysis has set up between conductors causing resistance to form?

Is over burn like any of this?

EDIT: I am trying to simplify the question by removing some of my speculation.

What is over burn?
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Re: Please forget rhodium
Reply #14 - 07/06/22 at 18:10:09
 
Hey Groovy, I worry that my conjecture about these lower power rigs being mild enough so that damage may not be as much of an issue, to call it a point is likely a little generous (-:    Rather... hypothetical wonderings based on my playing with the Frybaby. And though I am guessing it may be more flexible than more powerful rigs, I also don't deny that it could possibly do damage... I just have not noticed it here. And I have only used a Frybaby, not Frycorder.

But my experience with the Frybaby points to gradually going a little longer (within reason) did not seem to have detrimental effects, while, to a point, getting burnin farther along. Also seems each thing is different, and for timing, you can test as you go in wanted... burn one day, listen.... burn two days, listen, etc....not necessarily a full blown safeguard, but...

It seems  to me that ICs, speaker cables, power cables, caps and resistors, wires, etc are all different... and that heavier, more complicated things can take longer. This is sort of pointed to in the instructions, saying that for ICs double the time recommended for copper for "silver" burnin.... Yet we know we can hear different silver (etc) qualities, as well as dielectrics, gauges and geometry with cables, all causing sonic variance, and similar with caps, PCs etc etc... so I am thinking all the variabilities we hear would be reflected in burn in needs... that perhaps many of the more transparent/resolving/smooth things, sounding better new than other things, might need less pre-burnin with a Frybaby also?

But really, I know so little about this tech, I am ignorant, so can't do more than talk about my broad, not very calculated overview from which I guess and ask questions. And there does seem to be a lot of talk about over burning. I would love to read some cohesive things on it, while guessing, like everything else, opinions would be variable depending on the device used, how it is used, system qualities and sound, etc, etc.

I will say that not too long ago I broke down and bought a quad of VHAudio Odams for a coupling cap test. And Chris said he would not go "much past 3-4 days on that fixture." So I think I went 4 days, and it did seem good, enough to not hear ups and downs, and sound quite good. But I also noticed those caps kept getting a little more extended, solid, spacious, and resolving for quite a while... I am bad on time, but perhaps a month or more with pretty heavy play they kept refining...maybe 5-8 hours most days? Enjoyable, and not painful by any means, but still burning in. I guessed that Chris, in his position, has probably had more talk around burnin rigs than most, so I took heed... But I do wonder now if 7-8 Frybaby days would have gotten me more into "the end game."

Anyway, being a try and see what I hear type, I have not researched these things much, finally trying a Frybaby based on a gradual succession of pretty serious seeming audio heads saying they liked to use it, and liking their interpretations on what it did sonically... But I definitely recall having the same concerns you are pointing to. And for me, in retrospect, this relaxed more and more as I experimented with burning things in using this rig... That said, I am still paying attention.

But if lean and brittle is the symptom of over-burn, I have only experienced leaner/cleaner right off the FryBaby. Then for some days of music after they gradually fill out, warm, and smooth. I guess "brittle" in one setting may possibly be "clear" in another, but I have not heard brittle here after the FryBaby, more clean and lean... and that passes.

My thoughts anyway.

Will

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Re: Please forget rhodium
Reply #15 - 07/06/22 at 18:18:35
 
DD, sorry,  I too often am writing away and hitting the post button without looking for comments that came while I was writing. And in this case I was worse, coming back to a post I was writing early today and posting without checking the thread. Man, I would think I would learn one day! Smiley

Good questions... looking forward...
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Re: Please forget rhodium
Reply #16 - 07/06/22 at 20:16:23
 
Quote:
What is over burn?


I've never experienced this, all second hand information.

Some people state that if you use a cable cooker—a device to speed up the burn in process of cables—it's possible to have a negative effect from the process if done for too long of a time... "over burn"

That's the context I'm discussing it in.

Will, I'm also very ignorant about this so it's all WAGing for me. Cables after shipping or being moved around a bunch do need a few days with no disturbance and signal to sound correct again. Good to hear that the leanness passes with some time in the system.

The thing that interest me is If I have a cable that has 3,000+ hours on it. If I use one of these devices will it give benefits? Looks like people report yes. Will the cable slowly return to the previous state and need another go on the device?

With 15+ cable / cable pairs it would be a lot of work to cook them all.

It's wild that you can get a burn in device from ~$190 all the way up to $20,000!  :o

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Re: Please forget rhodium
Reply #17 - 07/06/22 at 21:48:45
 
Good thoughts related to cables holding burnin being a question, how not using them for a while can cause more burnin need, etc.

I recall reading about this in numerous places over time, but what comes to mind was that with the more costly Audiodarma rig, folks who are not pro cables makers and using it all the time might rationalize the expense due to regular cable touchup benefits. This is what I was doing with the Grover IC I mentioned earlier. They had probably 1000s of hours, and I did a touch up run (maybe a day total?) and they did sound more open, resolving and complex, though a little clean/lean for a few days....long time ago, but how I recall.

I have not done this since then that I can recall. I should try it on a power cable that has loads of hours. I will check it out.

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Re: Please forget rhodium
Reply #18 - 07/06/22 at 22:14:23
 
I can't imagine restoring a burned out cable that has changed its properties due to use.

Cryo? Maybe? Isn't that funny?

Going back into my experiences here, I was called to find out why the monitors crackled at an old well established recording studio in Nashville, way back when I lived there.

Turned out to be bad cables throughout the studio. Green or white, depending upon which element was corroding in its skin.
Nothing wrong with any of the monitor systems. I had everything in my van to rebuild any blown monitor they had.
I had done some re-con before committing.

Monitors were fine. Cabling was tired.

Not over burned, just over used from the '50s.
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Re: Please forget rhodium
Reply #19 - 07/06/22 at 23:38:59
 
Will said:
Good thoughts related to cables holding burnin being a question, how not using them for a while can cause more burnin need, etc

I have experienced this with tubes, but not cables.

They seem to warrant a go over if you set them aside for a while.

I've not seen this with cables.
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Re: Please forget rhodium
Reply #20 - 07/07/22 at 00:02:34
 
Cables I had that I thought were losing burnin most noticeably by not using them for a while, were Morrow speaker cables I ran for a while. These were also the longest burn in cables I can recall having. And on reflection, this might have made some sense, their design using loads of individual wires to make up the conglomerate gauge.... so though maybe good dielectric, perhaps a lot of it for the metals to interact with.

Guessing it unlikely that corrosion or some sort of metal fatigue were players in this case, being new, and if I am remembering correctly, they were made with pretty good wires in theory... very small gauge silver plated solid copper wires insulated with teflon? I can't find verification of this on the current site glancing around, but this is what comes to mind from when I got them quite a few years back.

I first tried SP4s based on their recommendation, and finding they took forever to burn in, and seeming too lean in my system, I went past the return time by a week or so before giving up, more burnin no longer apparently filling out the bottom... Not wanting to refund me based on that, they upgraded me to SP6. This bigger gauge cable had decent balances here, and they were clear top to bottom, though finally a little rigid seeming to me.... Looks like the current SP6 models have 768 individual insulated wires making up the 11 gauge total!

So guessing the long burnin and degeneration without use had to do with dielectric/wire interactions. And maybe related, over time, I wonder about magnetic and static charge issues with use messing further with the signal's back and forth between wire and dielectric, and losing signal purity and flow?

An unusual cable design, but maybe points to a cause for the theory of retouching cables with a good burnin algorithm?
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Re: Please forget rhodium
Reply #21 - 07/08/22 at 12:53:48
 
Quote:
I have experienced this with tubes, but not cables.


My EML 5u4g tubes came with burn in instructions. They state that if the tubes are not used for a few months, to repeat the burn in procedure. The procedure is to keep the tube on for a maximum of 3-4 hours then let it cool completely before powering on again. Repeat a few times, no specific amount of cycles mentioned.

If cables didn’t corrode, I imagine they will maintain their sound indefinitely. Possibly becoming a smidge better over the decades.

3 days ago I swapped out a USB cable for another one. I have 3 USB cables that I really enjoy. I switch them out from time to time. It took 48 hours to get back into shape. The first time it took 100’s of hours. The cable wasn’t used for 3+ months.

Quote:
So guessing the long burnin and degeneration without use had to do with dielectric/wire interactions. And maybe related, over time, I wonder about magnetic and static charge issues with use messing further with the signal’s back and forth between wire and dielectric, and losing signal purity and flow?


Furutech has a product DeMagα that demagnetizes CD, LP and cables. Maybe part of why the burning devices offer improvements even after 1000s of hours is because they are demagnetizing them?
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