Typical Audio Source Equipment provide an output signal of 2 volts which amps use to amplify and send to our speakers

Lets take the  SE84UFO  with 2.5 watts per channel  and a 2 volt input source and say  the max speaker volume output of this combination is “X”

What impact does inserting a Pre-Amp  with  say a 10 volt output  have on the volume “X” above

I have on order a Torii Jr for my 103 Db La Scala’s  because of Old School thinking of having some amp Head Room

Could  I with a Pre-Amp and using 2 SE84UFO’s  as mono blocks  have old school head room

I understand that my La Scala’s are very efficient but you still have to drive 3 drivers one of which is a large subwoofer

I am trying to determine the right Decware combination for my system

BTW my room is 17X20 with a rounded ceiling reaching 14 feet so high cubic volume, my music source is digitized  CD’s,  Flac 16/44


Thanks in advance for your comments and advice

Thank You CAJames - I kind of suspected that about pre-amps but wanted to confirm before my build date comes up

Like most of us, my normal listen level is not "concert level " but occasionally I do enjoy a song or two louder than normal  - never measured Db levels but enough to vibrate loose items and  iterate my wife

So now back to the big question which Decware Amp do I have built

The original  SE84UFO times two for 6 watts a channel bridged

The SE84UFO3  mono blocks @ 2.7 wats per channel

or my existing order the Torii Jr V2 with 20 watts per channel

What motivates me is sound stage and depth of sound stage, sound clarity - base is not as critical as I have an old Velodyne 15 inch sub which more than than fills the room below 100hzt

Jazz and big band is not my thing, more 60-80's rock and roll, some country, female vocals, and some pipe organ to give the Velodyne a workout.

I am sure they would all work just fine, wonder what would provide the best system synergy

Thanks again for your input

Will Thank You for your comments  basically my large volume room and my listening position at least 12 feet away will require more than 2.5 watts.

any other Decware owners with La Scala's   your comments would be greatly appreciated

Also what about users with high volume listening room


Thanks

I have Cornwalls in a 25 by 31' room with sloped ceilings to 14'. I believe the CW's are 101db. I have a UFO25 and it's quite capable but for earth shattering experiences you will do well with 20 wpc.

It also depends on your noise floor. If I'm on the treadmill with AC on and two ceiling fans going, I need a bit more headroom. In order to have satisfying loud you must have quiet first.

Quote:


I had this exact set up during a demo with a CD player putting out 2 volts into the SE84UFO.  The client brought his own music, a classical CD.  He put it in and proceeded to try to listen to the whole thing.  We had some speakers in the mid 90's sensitivity wise and after 15 minutes the clipping was becoming too distracting even though I don't believe it was noticeable in the sweet spot yet...  

Anyway, I paused it and asked if we could try something.  He agreed, and I inserted a ZSTAGE.  I turned it all the way up and set the bias switch to aggressive.  This changed the output of the CD player from 2 volts to at least 10 or more.  I then turned the amp all the way down to silence and slowly raised it as far as I could get it without clipping.  So basically to the same 2.3 watts of output as before.

The result was that it sounded like the volume level went up by 3dB (at least) and there was ZERO detectable clipping for the second half of the CD.  Also there was a lot more weight and density which the human condition interprets as volume.

Gain structuring.  It's like audio alchemy.

-Steve

In my system, with a Zstage, Zrock2, CSP3, Zbit on the balanced out of one DAC (usually set  at 3/4+, the DAC balanced output total 6 volts... so lets say 5 volts), whether using one or more pre stages with the Torii... the Torii will clip near the same volume (a little worse with multiple pre stages). For serious listening I do need to get near max volume with my speakers (~92.5dB) and room (high volume), whether pushing the pre stages or Torii. I tend to like the sound most with the pre stages not max, but pretty far up, and the Torii near max to get full serious listening levels, and the sound changes with the influences of the pre stages, but listening levels, not so much before occasional noticeable clipping.

Within my system I have DSP ability where I can cut out any signal below say 100htz  on my mains while sending say sending everything below say 120htz to my sub with its own 400 watt amp

This should make a difference on the load on a Decware amp, would it be enough to get greater volume without clipping

I am really trying to get the Decware tube sound into my system, and the Torii Jr v2 is at the upper limit of my budget

Comments and suggestions are most appreciated

Thanks again

Yes depending on tubes and gain, a CSP really can make the sound more lucid, weighty and dynamic. I don't think I have ever loved a Decware pre stages flat out myself.... but I can see how it could be good depending on all else.

JMeader. I think a good way to think of a pre stage is as a front end tuning tool.... in essence it takes the DAC stream or whatever, and influences the source signal with the Pre's sonic values. So I guess we could say it is part of the source as the amp reads it. And if that pre offers really good sonic values at various output voltages, with no damages to the signal, the amount of those sonic enhancements present basically depend on how high we raise a nice pre's gain.

Then, thinking about a lower power amp, it has a given level of power it can produce to amplify the signal before clipping, and that is about it for that wattage and amp design.

When our "source," is a higher voltage DAC (say 7 volts), or a lower voltage out DAC (say 2 volts) with a pre stage that can increase the source gain to say 10 volts... the amp will "feel" those source voltage differentials as less or more source "volume." So with my setups, I think of signal "volume" pretty much as "pass through" as the amp gets it. Yet the amp, if close to being too low power for a setting, still has its max limitations of amplification gain before clipping.

So roughly, with more source voltage into this amp, if the source voltage pushes the amps limits, the amp gain will need to be a little lower to avoid clipping.... Or another way to look it is, if the amp and pre gain-tuned balance is at about max without clipping, and you raise the pre stage gain a little more, it will likely push the amp into clipping. Or if you lower the pre gain some, the amp gain can be higher before clipping. This points to "gain riding," the Pre higher giving the sound more pre influence, and the Pre lower, and amp higher to create the same volume, the Pre sonic values will be less.... a nice tool for the system/room tuning, and/or for individual recording balancing.

I have never tried what you are suggesting with splitting the signal with DSP, makes some sense with a lot of energy in those lower frequencies... but I don't know from experience. If it were able to help much, I guess a question would be how much the DSP effects the new amp's sound, and on how well you could dial in the low frequencies to seamlessly match your speakers....

Seems most folks who have worked hard to get a well tuned sub, talk about more perceived volume and clarity, soundstage, etc, from running  speaker level from the amp to the speakers, and to the sub, influencing the sub sound with the pure amp sound, and really carefully tuning them together. Both getting the same signal, seems it can enhance everything when all is right with sub tuning. I was just talking to a buddy who is a great listener toward what makes a natural and balanced sound, and setting up a new room. He really likes MJ Acoustic's smaller subs, good sound, and as much, easily adjustable from the seat with phone app. So you can dial in phase, frequency, volume, etc in fine adjustments while in the seat. He said, as usual, each adjustment influences the others, but once all was about right for seamless integration across recordings, a big room, but he was finding he could then adjust the soundstage dimensions with a few little sub adjustments.  

Avoiding subs for a long time, I finally decided I should try this with a much less costly SVS 1000 pro, which has fine adjustability using a phone too. They also have a great return policy, but hoping it will be a refinement and a keeper... maybe in a week or two I could comment on how it works here.

But if your Scalas have really fast and nicely integrated bass... seems it might be nice to just run them with the amp(s)... I get your dilemma, concerns about the edge with your high volume room, but those are some efficient sounding speakers! I feel the pain though, personally not liking the edge of clipping much. I wonder how big Steve's room is... looks high volume though, and those efficient big baffles in there sound pretty huge.... I wonder if they can rattle loose objects with a SE 84 or with dual mono 84s?

JMeader wrote Quote:


Where you sit in your room should be where it sounds best to you in your room. Any number of theories can't take your own experience and preferences into consideration but many sound engineers and designers strive to place the speakers and listening position  at the points of an equilateral triangle.

here is a decent articles about speaker placement and optimum listening position. Don't forget to take seating height into consideration as well.

https://realtraps.com/art_room-setup.htm