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the fear of 2.3 watts (Read 33913 times)
tempest62
Ex Member



Re: the fear of 2.3 watts
Reply #150 - 09/30/22 at 22:39:48
 
I like to add something very important….

1. Complex music and congestion. As much as I ignored the many warnings out there before I purchased the SEP/single driver combo, this regularly reared it ugly head. It was in my face obvious that prog rock and classical symphonic/orchestral was a glaring weak point with this setup. Oh yes, female jazz vocals, acoustical, chamber classical and the like were rendered gorgeous and tactile - the strong points of this kind of setup. The rest of the music I also love failed on its head, ran out of steam, instrument separation not so great. It became annoying and finally unacceptable. Along with lack of real guttural bass, the congestion issue really drove me crazy and angry above all else.

2. Head in the vice effect. Very real. After a lot of experimenting with fussy single drivers and their positioning (again I ignored the warnings), and this is relatively near-field, you have to set them just right and then not move your head off axis. This annoying phenomenon also proved to be unacceptable.

So I’ve learned something very valuable: for my ears not to ever again go for a SE-single driver combo and expect that to satisfy with all types of music. It just ain’t so. For me, definitely not my bag.

Brad
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Lon
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Re: the fear of 2.3 watts
Reply #151 - 10/01/22 at 00:24:10
 
I don't experience either the congestion or the head-in-a-vice nature to the sound in either of my systems with SET or SEP amps and I think the reason is: the HR-1, and the fact that I refuse to listen in small rooms any longer. I've lived with HR-1 for about 11 years now since I bought the first pair, and 9 years since I bought the second and I have learned how to tune and position them and they are amazing speakers with enough efficiency for the small amps because they have such a full and vivid presentation especially if you give them room to breathe. It gets better and better with the great preamps, the full voltage from the ZBITs and the amazing density and revealing nature of the ZROCK2s.  They were great with the Toriis I had, but the smaller amps make the HR-1 become more photographers than painters, that's how I think of them and how I enjoy the difference.
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HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
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chapsjon
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Re: the fear of 2.3 watts
Reply #152 - 10/01/22 at 00:58:06
 
SET and SEP don't necessarily require single driver speakers.

I've said this before, but I for one don't use single driver speakers with my SE84C+ or Mini Torii. My Decware 945's are my most efficient, and sound great with both. For nearfield, I often use my 81db sensitive KEF 101 Ref's with my SE84C+. Believe it or not, it sounds great at low listening in the nearfield.

With my MT I use mostly vintage 3 ways, to include a pair of 91db Sony SS-5050 and 90db Yamaha NS-1000M. Large scale classical, Prog Rock, etc... sounds great. I tend to listen in low 80's db, so I have to assume this may not be enough volume for some.

Not saying there's no place for PP, just that if you don't require higher volumes, SET or SEP Decware amps can drive 2 and 3 way speakers and sound good doing so!
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LR:Mini Torii+Wright WPP100 phono, CSP2+SE84UFO, Pioneer Exclusive M4, Accuphase E-303,Graham Slee Jazz Club, Technics SL-1200MK3D Grace F-8 & Nagaoka MP-110, Yamaha NS-1000M, KEF Reference 101, Sony SS-5050
BR: SE84C+, ZP1 phono, Decware 945
JVC QL-7 Shure V15
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tempest62
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Re: the fear of 2.3 watts
Reply #153 - 10/01/22 at 01:48:31
 
Lon, after very little time it’s more than obvious the magnificence of the HR-1’s is front and center apparent. So I definitely agree with you on its virtues, plenty of which I have yet to discover. Right off the bat, the entire bass region utterly and completely blows away the Omega single drivers I had. Nothing about them were even anywhere close when it comes to the low frequencies. I was disappointed when I had them, and now with the rich yet wonderfully detailed bass that I have experienced (and that’s not very much at all yet), I realize even more of what was actually missing with the single drivers. Not going back to THAT again. While the single driver is justifiably noted for it fantastic imaging and ability to realistically render vocals and gorgeous simple instrumentation, I’ve already found the HR-1’s equal those virtues and imaging even more so. So for me it’s a win-win across the board.

I don’t know which version of HR-1 you have, I’ve found out that mine have an updated crossover with upgraded caps which applies only to the midrange driver and ribbon tweeter and no longer including the upper driver; this among other effects reduced the over abundance of tgd midrange. The upper (active) 6.5” driver was changed from being inverted to a conventional one facing upward, also to address too much midrange. These changes and upgrades occurred sometime in 2018.

The Torii MK 5 gives me what I was missing with the Taboo (regarding speaker duty. I haven’t tried my Audeze LCD-4’s yet in the CSP3). Much better balls and force with headroom on top of that which was my main complaint with the 3.2w of the Taboo, better presence, much better immersion.

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Lon
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"Love without
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Philip K. Dick

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Re: the fear of 2.3 watts
Reply #154 - 10/01/22 at 02:23:01
 
I have pre-upgraded HR-1s and with some tuning I have what works for me as far as mid-range, etc. I wouldn't mind upgrades but I have had some damage shipping these before and I am not going to risk it again. I'm happy at present, very much so.

I get the balls I had with the Torris and am not lacking headroom. I've no longer an interest in the push-pull sound which I just don't prefer. I have time to save up for a 300B.

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HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
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tempest62
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Re: the fear of 2.3 watts
Reply #155 - 10/01/22 at 02:31:37
 
Right on, exactly.

It’s wonderfully subjective, to a point.
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JBzen
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Re: the fear of 2.3 watts
Reply #156 - 10/01/22 at 11:40:37
 
Brad, your points 1 and 2 above are spot on.

I have not had the pleasure of hearing Steve's other amp designs and will spend next weekend with those.

John
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AMC CD8b>XO3>Cambridge CXN2>ZDAC>ZBOX>braided silver/occ> Zrock2>CSP2+>SE84 milflex copper 25th>9AWG silver/copper braid>lii Crystal 10 in Huijgen cabinets. Ortofon 2M Black>JVC QL-F4/Otari MX5050B2>ZP3. Isolation. AC filtering. Room treatment.
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Doug
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Re: the fear of 2.3 watts
Reply #157 - 10/01/22 at 17:09:37
 
Burger said………
Amazed to see that almost 80% of the 1900 orders on the list are for SET amps.
Use a powered subwoofer and an in-line filter? Take a load off your AMP??
Is THIS the answer? Is this a BAD answer?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65eFr2rKy3M”

Burger, this post from a few days ago has me thinking and researching.  It would be a simple task to buy a couple of the best capacitors known to man for a hundred fifty bucks or so and insert them between my CSP3 and 300B power amp.  

Currently I couldn’t be more pleased with the sound of my full range drivers hooked directly to my 300B amp, but now I am intrigued by how a single ultra high quality cap could change the sound.  I know for certain that I don’t want any crossover components between my amp and speakers, but this inline option seems to offer a much better alternative, and with very little expense.  Might this actually result in cleaner more transparent sound due to significantly reducing the lowest octave of the signal that is going to the full range drivers, and might this not have any negative impacts to the overall sound quality?  The risk is so low…….why not try it?  I intend to pursue this further.

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Jay’s CD2T-Mk3
Denafrips Pontus II
ZROCK2 25th Mods
CSP3 25th & Custom Mods
PAP Quintets with Voxativ 1.6
First Watt J2 or Cary 300SEI
driving Voxativs—no crossover
LFD NCSE driving 15” Woofers
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Kahuna Jack
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Re: the fear of 2.3 watts
Reply #158 - 10/18/22 at 22:50:32
 
Really nothing new in the Decware ( ufo2.1 vs Racheal ) comparisons as my small room was extremely hot through the summer months to the point where I didnt even want to see a light on. The tube amps got shelved in favor of a Harmon Kardon hk3500 receiver a friend gave me to troubleshoot for him. It stayed in my system until last night and now its back to Decware listening and comparisons. I also picked up a standard se84ufo second hand that is in place ( Klipsch rp8000's still hooked up)  for some listening and glistening.

I will say for the time the HK 3500 was in place I listened to more music that I really wanted to listen to as apposed to sticking to a diet of carefully selected "audiophile" recordings. Confirmation that I will always feel the need for at least 2 different systems. Not a bad thing at all.
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