I should like to add to the above that I have these tubes in my own amplifiers and they sound profoundly different than everything else due to his tedious Cryo process and the careful grading of tubes before they ever enter the process.  I can honestly say I haven't heard anything better regardless of cost, brand, current production or New Old Stock.  Since I've purchased, installed and tested over 100,000 tubes in our amplifiers and tried every new brand that pops up on the market which has been hundreds over the past 20 years alone, I am uniquely qualified to know and hear the difference in tube quality.

These are the real deal.  They will let you hear the full potential of your Decware gear and they last longer than other tubes which helps offset the price.

-Steve

Stale SUSHI?

This is great news. We can put away the dice.

After selling most of the remainder of my stupidly purchased bellowing big huge fat antique tube stash off and on over the past 2-3 yrs. like a paranoid screaming banshee on meth, and spending way way too much because of it, though net sales $$ is still in the black, its all way too much effort and so the following applies:

1. I've heard enough already from credible folks on the practicality and even more important the sonics of Cryotone tubes.

2. So.....I've just outfitted the CSP3 with a 5AR4, two 6SN7's, and an ECC88. The results are no question whatsoever significantly superior to the any of the AZ1's, 6SN7's, and any input tube I've had and that's been pretty many.

3. Like I mentioned, I've held on to a few pairs of [very expensive] prime examples of the best of yesteryear in a couple rectifiers and input tubes....for nostalgia reasons. As for real use, its Cryotone from here on out. The Torii MK 5 is going to be expensive which is why I'll just start with the ECC88 upgrade. With the many thousands in $$ received already and will receive in the future until most everything is gone, I will still pocket several $$ over the cost of going Cryotone. The point I'm saying is that the issue of practicality alone is overwhelmingly significant...I'm a living example of it, LOL

Don Thomas, Steve Deckert, or other members here like JOMAN are NOT LYING when they tell you even their beloved NOS tubes or fashionable flavor of the day can't hold a candle to the Cryotones in practicality nor performance.

Heyyyyyyyy Geno!

Brad!  Great endorsement from you, John and of course, Steve!  I am enjoying mine on the UFO25th, CSP3 and the ZR2.  Curious as well on life of these tubes.
Bob

I have the 5AR4 for the UFO25th.  I am getting the 5u4G for the CSP3.  The 5u4G gives you more sag.
Bob

Yeah, apparently they are balls to the wall all the way to failure, which is very different than anything I ever heard of. Normally a tube just gets weaker over time as sound quality degrades, then its kaput one way or another....unless of course you have blanking China-CCP shit-garbage and its fireworks early.

My NOS days are pretty much over. I keep a couple of the pre-60's very expensive and now obsolete in terms of practicality Mullard, Telefunkens, Amperex, etc. in the second system [along with a few spare pairs for nostalgia only and will sell them years from now for a tidy sum], which is purely non-critical/casual listening, until they fart and die....then Wathen replaces them.

Well, I've been tempted to order for a few weeks now. I was going to order power tubes, but I just don't want to go EL84 and will wait until Steve's tubes are available through Cryotone. So . . . I succumbed to temptation and ordered a pair of 6SN7 WC. We'll see if they are actually more to my taste than the RCA Gray Glass good old ones I've been using in my Monoblocks and CSP3.

When the "High Resolution Sushi" thread was accidentally deleted my post was as well regarding the results when I rolled the Cryotone tubes into my UFO25 and ZR2.  I was going to wait to post again after I get the Cryotone tubes that I ordered for my CSP3-A.  But after following this thread I felt that I should post specifically regarding the Cryotone EL84.

This is not intended to convince anyone to get the Cryotone instead of the 6P15P-EV.  Rather it's to suggest strongly that you do not stereotype the Cryotone EL84 as just another variation on the EL84 theme, so to speak.  I assure you it isn't!  If you do you will be doing yourself a disservice.

I had the original Svetlana tubes in my UFO2 and preferred those to the 6P15P-EV.  In my UFO25 I preferred the 6P15P-EV to the Svetlana hands down.  I also tried the TAD EL84STD in both amps and preferred the 6P15P-EV and still feel that it's a very good option.  I did not try the Cryotone EL84 because I was unhappy with the 6P15P-EV.  I tried it because of what Steve initially posted.  

The Cryotone EL84 is a different experience from all of the above, so much so that I wish we would not have to use the EL84 designation for it.  Is it an experience that you would like? Can't say, only one way to find out.

I'll add that when I replaced all of the tubes with the with the Cryotone  the result was such that they are still in the UFO25 and I consider the price to be a deal.

Quote:


Oh that nasty audiophile itch!    ;D

How long has it taken folk here to get an order? I ordered two tubes 11 days ago and haven't received anything other than an acknowledgement of my payment, and no answer to an email sent two days ago.

Not tremendously impatient, just thought I would hear something by now. TIA.

Thanks Tony! Good to know. I can adjust my expectations.

I received an email today saying a batch is being finished this Friday and are looking to ship on Monday.

Ditto!

Lon, which ones did you order?

Lon,

Will the 6SN7s go in your CSP? I know you like that tube in that pre-amp. If so, what will you put in the third location?

Looking forward to your comparison Lon.

Ok, I am a bit confused.  Reading their website, they state under Quick Facts, "Wathen products are designed, and handcrafted in Houston , TX." Yet Doug's post says, "The 6SN7’s are sitting on a container ship."  Are these tubes made in USA then cryotreated or made outside USA, arrive at their facility then cryotreated, then rebranded to Wathen?

Thanks

I gather that most—maybe all—of Don’s tubes are sourced from JJ Electronic in the Slovak Republic.  None are sourced from Russia.

Great news Steve!

Any 6N5P?

Yes, mine are on the way.  Last I talked with Don he was waiting for a shipment and then had to cryo treat them.  So they'll probably be on the way to everyone soon.

The ones that are en route will be going in my CSP3-A. So all my components will have the Cryotone tubes.  I'll also be rolling the 12AU7 Long Plate in the input position of my CSP3-A and comparing it with the ECC88W.

I'm very happy to say I received and installed my first Cryotone tube in my system. It's a 12AU7 long plate that I added to ny Zstage. I noticed an immediate difference in attack, and micro detail. after an hour the system transformed into this beast of beautiful sound. Deeper and much wider soundstage. Space of instruments, and vocals has taken on another dimension onto it's own. Everything has more timber and reverb. it's is if the music were a living being There is a new smoother easiness to the sound. I loved the sound of my system prior to this update, but wow. And yes- off of one tube. Now I'm going to upgrade the input tubes on my ZMA. This is cool!!!

PDXDrew,

Sounds good! I wonder what the tube you changed from was?

Thanks,

Will

Hi Will,
The tube I had in before the Cryotube was an NOS-12AU7-CT 12AU7 RCA Clear Top, which was a step up from the stock tube. And wow did I stayed up late last night.  :)

Another two weeks to wait for me, what I ordered didn't arrive on the incoming shipment.

Gives me time to break in another Purple fuse in my SACD transport, in my headphone system in my CSP2+ with the Anniversary mods, and in my CSP3 with the Anniversary Mods in the audio/visual system.  The "3 for 2" sale was too hard to resist, it's going on through this month.

Quote:


Ditto, John!

I too hope to finally end my old exceedingly expensive obsession in ancient tubes with a dead end for a bright future in Cryotone. At some point, I want to sell off nearly all of the remainder of the great, ridiculously expensive old stock stuff from the 30's, 40's, and 50's and never look back. You spend $180 on a known beloved antique tube only to watch it die in a year. Those days and that kind of rick needs to be over with. Up to this point, it was the only acceptable alternative in the small tube market....now we have a better alternative and apparently a much longer life with these Wathen tubes.....with high quality right to the end of the tube life, as opposed to decreasing SQ over time and always having to experience that "something missing" as time goes by....this alone is a big deal to me.

I've been following the thread on the development of the 300B amp and Steve made a comment regarding tubes that struck a chord with me (I really did not want to use that pun but there it is):

Not a direct quote...You can get fabulous sound with a pair of $200.00 300B tubes but the ultimate sound with a pair of WE $1,500.00 tubes.

Based on my experience with the Wathen EL84-WC that's the exact comparison that I would make with difference that EL84-WC make to the UFO25: You can get fabulous sound with a pair of $52.00 6P15P-EV tubes but the ultimate sound with a pair of $216.00 EL84-WC.

In other words, the Wathen EL84-WC are to the UFO25 what the WE 300B are to the 300B amp.  In that case the EL-84-WC are a screaming deal.

I have been using the Cryotone ECC88-WC input tubes in the 300B amp and comparing to the original 6N6P which should be the far superior tube and usually is, but the Cryotone has better resolution.

BTW,  I sent Don my personal UFO25 amplifier so he can use it to fine tune his process on the 6P15P output tubes.  

Steve

Ok, I can confirm that Cryotone 6SN7 tubes are the best 6SN7’s I’ve ever used, and I’ve used all kinds of NOS and current production 6SN7’s going back through the mid 1990’s.  These Wathen tubes are the perfect compliment to the Western Electric 300B’s.  

It’s a great day to be an American audiophile!!!

Lon,

Looking forward to your impressions of the Cryotone 6SN7. All in goodtime sir.

Thank you


Doug,

That's good news to hear. Glad you like them.

Lon said:

I also recently have been enthralled with an unlikely pair of input tubes that I got the converter bases for recently: Amperex pinched waist 7062. These almost seem at this point like a fusion of the two 6SN7...

Previously you mentioned how much you like the Amerex 7062 in the ZRock.  Where exactly are you placing it in the reference above?

Cryotone 300B-WC tubes are now available from Wathen Audiophile.  I would love to try a pair and compare them to my Western Electric 300B’s, but that is not financially feasible currently.

The Cryotone 300B-WC tubes run $966 for a perfectly matched pair.  

Steve, has Don sent a pair of these to you?  I’m sure that all those folks interested in your 300B amp will also be extremely interested in your take on the Cryotone 300B-WC tubes.  Can we count on your judgement any time soon?

Seems they are JJ 300Bs at nearly three times the price. I am not sure if these are hanging filaments or not. . . but they don't seem to be.

Yesterday I received the Wathen 12AU7 and the ECC88.  As I've written elsewhere, after 4 hours I found the sound to be aggressive and edgy.  Much more than my stock CSP3 tubes and a 1960's Mazda 12AU7 in the ZR2.

For those of you who speak so glowingly about the Wathen tubes, how many hours of break in should I give them before reaching a conclusion?  At how many hours do you feel they reached their normal Wathen house sound?

I so want to hear what you guys have described.  But so far, no dice.

And can I break them in just by leaving the units on?  Or must music be playing?

Thanks

Mine took 2 weeks to ship and their communication about the process was not up to modern day standards in that they initially stated they would ship within 5 days yet gave no updates regarding the delay.

I did eventually email them and they apologized and said they would ship later in the week, and they did indeed ship.

I have a call into Wathen regarding their thoughts on break in time.  Awaiting a call back.

We've seen this movie before.  Small boutique company has unexpected exposure resulting in 10 times more orders than normal leading to delays.  Soon Wathen will have a 3 year waitlist as well...

Ghostship: Well, in my admittedly limited tube experience, a new tube has sounded good from the beginning and gotten better as it broke in.  This is the first time I had a tube sound off-putting from the starting gun.  This is contrasted by a number of posts in this thread saying the Wathen tubes sound great after a few hours.  Following your logic, it would be possible for a tube to sound good at first and then sour as it broke in.  If breaking in is indeed real, then there ought be no guarantee that time will be kind.

But I shall give it more time and see.  The break in process will have to move the needle quite a ways to enter my green zone, but perhaps it will.

Sorry, but I am not seeing 'Dancing' being that argumentative.  Just stating his experience and asking for input.

I personally have had tubes sound great right off the bat and some sound edgy.  I wait to pass judgement on both.  How many hours?  I always lose track.  But I have had some "now those really sound good" moments.

I'll weigh in on this brand once I get the input tube I ordered and get a chance to listen.  

I also trust Lon's ears (I have bought gear from him) and will be interested to hear how his opinion evolves...good or bad.

Ghostship said:


Quote:



Brand-new Psvane cv-181t super bright and every note had an outline around them..... Now is an outstanding tube!

How long to break-in, how many on - off cycles? Dont know for sure but it wasn't over night.

jec3504 - thanks, I shall!

I encouraged Don to post in the forum. He knows a ton about tubes.  He wasn’t sure if it was kosher for him to post.  I said please do, that way at least one of us will know what he’s talking about  

He said Pixar was only getting 6 months out of their previous tubes under heavy usage.  Now they get 3 years out of CryoTone.  Also that his cryogenic treatment is vastly different than the typical cryo treatment.  So different as to not warrant the same name of treatment.

He used to work for Dell, but left 10 years ago to pursue his passion for audio. He designs amps and it was challenging, if not impossible, to acquire consistent tube quality in bulk.  NOS or otherwise.  Even if good sounding tubes were found, that good sound often didn’t last very long. And hence CryoTone was born.

From what I gather CryoTone shifts the needle in the less euphonic, and more transparent direction.  Once I get 100 hours of break-in complete, I’ll tinker with the ZRock’s treble attenuation and see where that goes.  I’m very much the euphonic type, and only trust transparency to a certain extent.  Hear that transparency, I’ve got my eye on you!!!

Aloha Brad!  I offer you the secret communist handshake, good to see you comrade. Your undercover work with the fascist is inspiring.



I bought a YBA integrated, Meadowlark Audio speakers, Ah! Tjeob CD 4000 with DH Labs cables in 1999.  Had that for about 17 years while not yet contracting the audiophile virus.  Never once thought of upgrading anything, didn’t know that’s something people did in the ways audiophiles do.

In 2016 I wanted to understand more about what a DAC is.  Google led me to Computer Audiophile.  Within 6 months I had subscribed to Stereophile and TAS and the upgrade madness had begun, Sonus Faber, Hegel, Border Patrol, Decware, Magnepan, Duelund and PS Audio.

My time with the DirectStream Junior led me into a world in which its designer, Ted Smith, feverishly pursued low noise in the pursuit of transparency.  With each of his updates, noise was lowered, transparency improved, and another swath of my long time favorite CDs became unlistenable as their flaws became more apparent.  Yes, Norah Jones DSDs sounded incredible, but at a great library price.

I discussed this with Ted and he said that his goal was transparency and that he experienced the same thing as me, but that it was a necessary sacrifice to achieve ultimate resolution. He said it is was not possible to design a DAC that played both A+ and B grade recordings well. It was one or the other.

Eventually yet another DirectStream update came and I had had enough.  A degree of transparency was welcomed, but going too far down that road did not meet my sonic goals.  I tired of listening to the same A+ recordings over and over.  I missed the common folks.

Sold the DirectStream Junior at a profit and bought a Border Patrol R2R DAC. Loved it!  But it did not play DSD, and I have a large DSD collection.  Sold it and bought the Marantz SACD 30n, which is amazing.  Love it’s disc playing ability so much that I bought spindles of Taiyo Yuden blank CDs and DVDs and burned all my favorite album files to disc. I spent months doing that.  Now I listen 90% to discs.  10% to streaming via a fabulous IFi Zen Stream w/ Elite power supply.

The Mac Mini with lifetime Roon is no longer used for audio. I’m computer free.

Next came the ZR2 and CSP3.  With stock tubes on the CSP3, and my trusty Mazda NOS on the ZR2, I had achieved for me what is incredible sound.  The Norah Jones SACDs sounded incredible, yet all my favorite non A+ recordings sounded extremely good. Night after night I ended each listening session by literally saying out loud, “that was ridiculous, so freaking good.” Recordings that had been banished made a prodigal son like return, and the crowd cheered.

With amazing sound achieved and utter satisfaction acquired, night after night, in typical audiophile fashion, I became curious if something better is out there.  And heck, $222 for a couple CryoTone seemed a bargain, especially with the glowing reviews here.

That first night, with only 4 hours break-in, gave me DirectStream flashbacks.  The transparency I had fled from was back!  The villagers shrieked and ran back to their huts.

Don has convinced me to give it 200 hours. I’m running the rig 16 hours per day, on a strict schedule.  I’m at 20 hours so far.  He suggested I peak in at 100.

We shall see where the CryoTone end up. If the initial edge, or as Lon says “live wire”, dials back enough, or if the ZR2 can help compensate, it might work for me.

Stay tuned!

piezoman,

You looking at any Cryotone power tubes for your Torii? Unless you changed your order to the 300B. If so never mind.

DancingSea, that made me laugh. Good job at remembering them.
Life of Brian reference always welcome.

Quote:


"Uncle Kevvy" is a craven salesman first bullshitter type, but he's right on the technicalities.

The really cool thing about the Cryotones is that they hold their sweet spot from fairly early on -- all the way to the end which is several orders of magnitude vs. the antique stuff which start farting out and go downhill from there iteratively, well before that.

Oh and no sweat, that was a funny joke, LOL

Update on the Western Electric-Cryotone combination:

I had a great experience yesterday evening with my system.  The CSP3 has standard Decware issued stock tubes that have approximately 20 hours use.  The Cary 300SEI has a Cryotone 6SN7 in the input position, two Cryotone 6SN7’s in the driver positions, and a pair of Western Electric 300B output tubes.  The Cryotones now have 33 hours of play time, and the WE300B’s have around 135 hours of music play time.

Ten years ago I had a system anchored by big 2a3 monoblocks and huge Lowther based horns.  On certain bluegrass recordings it was fairly easy to talk one’s self into believing that there was a live band in the room. From the day that system left our home I have not experienced that level of musical deception……..until last night.

It should be noted that my Lowther based system, on the vast majority of music, caused my ears to bleed. Talk about a tipped up high end…….throw a pair of 5 inch Lowthers on massive Azzura horns and point them at your listening chair!

Last night, just before bed time, I went to the listening room to turn off the system which had been playing music all day.  Instead, I decided to sit down to listen to the first movement of a Hadyn string quartet played by the Buchberger Quartet.  I was instantly caught up in the performance, and I didn’t go to bed—I listened to all three complete quartets on this CD.  And for the first time in ten years I was able to drift off into a dream world of a live performance in my listening room.  It sounded so real.  

What caused this new level of system performance?  Several huge changes have come to my system during the past 12 months, and each change has resulted in sound quality improvement, but the change I heard last night was out of this world.  I believe that the only explanation is the new Western Electric and Cryotone tubes and the way they play together.  It was an incredible experience.  The most intriguing part of this situation is the fact that these 5 tubes are brand new and barely used.  I am pumped!

DancingSea,

I read your initial experience with the Cryotubes that you have received.  Perhaps I missed this... What amp do you have?  If it's a Decware amp what tubes are in it?  What rectifier is in the CSP3?  Is your CSP3 the Anniversary version or has it been updated to an Anniversary version?

 
Quote:


Cryotone and Decware are affiliates.  Just like Caintuck & Lii Audio so Don and Roger are more than welcome to post here.  : )

Steve

Doug,

Thank you for your opinion. I'm still not seeing Steve's statement that Wathen is using a specific brand of tubes. I'll admit to a lack of careful reading, but I have not found the information. Fwiw, though I trust Brent and Andy implicitly, I do not buy exclusively thru them, but they are top notch resources. There are very reputable sellers of these tubes at much lower prices. I'm willing to take a chance on them with the information gained by discussions with Brent and Andy and initially buying from them. Those two have sold me many tubes which are still actively being used... it's my back stock found thru other vendors.

One thing I particularly like about A & B, is they will encourage buying ugly stock or stock from a more recent vintage (60s instead of 40s or 50s), noting it sounds identical or so near to it that only perfect circumstances would reveal the micro differences. If I choose the more expensive, they're willing to sell. But when I buy the less expensive, I've found out they're right; the difference between the pretty tele or amperex and the ugly/60s tube is inconsequential.

This is just my preference, so please do not take this as a suggestion or instruction. I'll trust recommended nos stuff from Andy and Brent before investing in JJ tubes, until those tubes have a substantial time of being long lasting and high sound quality. Fortunately for me, I have a large stock of everything the Torii mkiv uses, and they were way more affordable.

If you haven't tried the nos SED 5u4g rectifiers, I highly encourage doing so. They're affordable and rectifiers, by function, last a long time...exceptions are notable, i.e. Sophia Electric, I found to be fragile.

Hey, thanks for the discussion. Good stuff

"But then there's tubes that I like in my system, in my environment that others do not."

Joman, well said. Apparently, me too.

I'm not sure what you're referring to about inferring that something is overpriced and the corollary about seller's intentions.

Overpriced is relative to established norms for a particular level of quality. To say cryotone is established compared to 60-80 year old tubes is a stretch. That said, if someone thinks they're awesome then say it and why. That goes for both cryotone and nos.

As for intentions of sellers, did I imply that Wathen is not above board? Please help me understand how I did this. Not my intention, but ignorance isn't a defense, which is why I'm asking. The one thing I can point to within Decware forums is the overall professionalism of the contributors.

Thanks for sharing

I really don't want to start a debate and that is not my intent and after this I will not comment.

I have noticed that lately, in posts about cryogenic treatment, besides the word "overpriced", I believe the term "snake oil" has also been used in other posts and there is a connection between these posts.

Most dictionaries define "overpriced" as -it costs much more than it should, -too expensive, costs more than its worth.

Among the list of synonyms for "overpriced" the phrase "rip off" is included.

With respect to "snake oil" the notation is made that it is used "to describe deceptive marketing, fraud, scam".

Another term that has been used recently in posts is "used car salesman".  That term is synonymous with "sleazy, pushy, crooked sales".

Now whether or not the above is what we intend to convey when using these terms or words is not the point.  The point is that many will take it that way because even if they're unfamiliar with the dictionary definition they are familiar with the negative stereotype.

If we are going to post, myself included, we need to keep that in mind.  It's not hard to slip from time to time.  Sure, we may feel very strongly about something and try to express our sentiments with a degree of force, however remember, too much seasoning can make a meal distasteful.

What I have said applies to me as much as anyone else.

Did more listening.  I think break in has not changed things that much. The change I’ve heard is mostly from monkeying with the ZRock.

My NOS win handily on tone and the ability to play a wide range of audio qualities extremely well.  

The CryoTone have a larger soundstage and are more holographic.  They have an extra gear on A+ recordings that is very impressive.  And conversely are a bit more punishing of B grade recordings, but not too bad in that regard.  Not DirectStream punishing.

The CryoTone have more bass.  I’m a bass fanatic, but at times it was even too much bass for me.  Flight of the Cosmic Hippo (very deep bass) actually clipped for the first time in my music listening career and I had to dial the ZR2 back to noon.

With 100 hours of break in to go, if I had to pick one set to live with, it would be my NOS recipe because of its tone and more forgiving nature.  I find the notion of punishing recordings I love off putting.

But that extra CryoTone gear on A to A+ recordings is very appealing.  It takes those recordings to a step higher.  And the increase on the holographic front is very nice.

I wonder what would happen if 1960’s NOS tubes received the CryoTone treatment?  Would it merge the best of the two worlds?

Break in is 16 hours per day with amp off… but yes, I am wealthy enough to afford the power bill.

With the two WE300B tubes approaching 150 hours, and the three Cryotone 6SN7 tubes nearing the 50 hour mark in my 300B amp, the resolution and detail of my system is astonishing.  I’m still using four relatively new stock tubes in my CSP3, but will soon equip it with all Cryotone brand tubes.  When that happens, I expect to see another step up in sound quality, though I don’t see how that is possible at this point in time.

Western Electric and Cryotone for life!

We've heard a little about the 6sn7 NOS tubes being used and comparison to the cryotone.

What other NOS input tubes (brand, tube type, date of mfr) are being compared to cryotone. I have liked the sound 1960s Amperex 7308 & Mullard 6922 provide to my Torii mkiv. I listen to vinyl primarily. Plenty of detail and dynamics, while maintaining tube mid-range tone. I personally dislike the Russian tubes Steve sells. They sound bland, though not edgy sound like new production can produce.

Finally, what cryotone power tubes have been tried so far, besides the 300? Compared to what other tubes?

Please note the year, tube type, and brand of tubes compared to the cryotone.

Thanks and peace to you all

Well said, Lon. Each of us is coming at the goal of preferred sound different ways. I am not using a preamp with my Torii mkiv. I have found the late 1960s and early 70s Russian 6L6 equivalents, with SED 5U4g rectifiers to sync well with the 7308/6922 tube types. I'm a sucker for tube warmth with clarity. Plus, I'm using a vinyl rig.

Does anyone have a recommendation for a dac in the $200-300 range? I apologize for mixing topics.

Kirk,

Thanks for the feedback!  

Steve

Kirk I am pretty green on tubes. My UFO2 is breaking in, about 600 hours now. This tube you poped in is the input single tube?

Thxs Randall

Quote:


Try 4 times as much - Steve's are $60 a pair - Cryotone's are $119 each, if i'm reading it correctly.

Lon, according to Don, he will allow you to return any tubes you don’t like for refund or exchange. That’s what he offered me over the phone.

I’m at about 180 hours of break in.  As a reminder, my chain goes:

Marantz SACD 30n —> ZR2 —> CSP3 —> Marantz Model 30 (in power amp mode)

I bought a 12AU7 for the ZR2, and a ECC88 for the CSP3.

I’ve concluded that two JJ CryoTone’s are too spicy for my system, both on top and down low.  Keep in mind I have lots of solid state bass to begin with.  The ZR2 on the up setting adds too much bass in order to attenuate the treble which leads to an odd, unnatural  mix at times.  And the ZR2 down switch is just too much heat.

Last night using SACDs of “Midnight Blue” and the Dire Straits first album, I found a very nice tonal balance using a 1960’s RCA 12AU7 in the ZR2, and the CryoTone ECC88 in the CSP3 input tube spot.

The RCA provided plenty of rich bass without being too much, and also naturally cooled down the CryoTone.  The result was nice warm  NOS tone with some of the DirectStream like detail of the CryoTone.  And all that happened with the ZR2 rear switch down, which is no treble attenuation.  My theory is that the transparent nature of the CryoTone allowed yet more of the fabulous upstream RCA tone to shine.

At least on the A+ recordings.  Tonight I’ll see how it fares with my more terrestrial recordings.

I’m inclined at this point to return at least the 12AU7 as I don’t see it unseating my NOS in the ZR2.  But I’m very hopeful about keeping the CryoTone ECC88 in the CSP3 as I think it’s an upgrade over the stock Russians.  Should know for sure by Monday.  

Maybe exchanging it for the 6N1P would be wise? I wonder if the underlying JJ is not best for me?  Perhaps Steve’s tubes CryoToned would be better?  Not sure I can handle another 200 hour break in regimen!

I think what we read on the forum about specific tubes only has limited value because our systems and tastes vary so much.  It’s a bit like us all cooking a curry and sharing precisely how much of which spice we added.

But given Don will accept returns or exchanges, we have nothing to lose in giving CryoTone a try.   It’s all about how you like your curry.

I would say my Monoblocks are on about 30 to 40 hours a week. I could get more months out of them and used to, but they clearly start to decline in sonic quality after about a year's use so I now compare them to new broken in tubes after about 11 months and they usually are found lacking in overall balance and replaced between 11 and 13 months.

Safebelayer - I’ve only had the CSP3 for about 2 months, so I’ve only experienced Steve’s stock Russian and the JJ CryoTone. My next experiment will likely be with Mullard NOS.

Lon, please do tell, what is the Lon Treble Cut Circuit?

I wore my Decware one year club T-shirt to Whole Foods and Costco. With the increase in orders I thought surely a fellow Decware person would come and say high.  But alas, no one batted an eye lash…

The Decware “Lon Amp” would surely have a full fledged ZRock baked right in!

Oops, here we go again…

DS,

I highly recommend the amperex 7308 as well as 60s Mullard 6922. Depending on your warmth vs resolution preference, others love Siemens and Telefunken. I have not enjoyed any European tubes made from the 70s or newer. Ymmv.

Out of curiosity, in terms of the health of the CSP3’s tube sockets, how often is it ok to change tubes?  Can this be done often, even daily?

Or is tube rolling meant to be done periodically?

I ask because the cryotone ECC88 is shaping up to be an A+ SACD specialist in my sonic world.  It lacks the old school warmth to be my everyday tube.  But I don’t want to traumatize the CSP3’s tube sockets by regularly switching in the cryotone just for those rarified SACDs.

Guidance appreciated.

Socket savers. CAUTION!

Try listening to a tube with and without the socket saver. I have found they can alter the sound...not always, but sometimes. Good luck.

Peace

The socket saver on the Tube Depot link costs $2.49 which does not inspire confidence.  Perhaps if we Cryo treat it things will improve….

Purchase socket savers in pairs at least. They should be tight when you get them. You prepare them for use by plugging and unplugging them into one another, roughly ten times each should work. Then, start plugging tubes into them.

Anywho, here's the rub.  Like Lon, I find the JJ Cryotone to have too much treble at times.  The ZRock2 can attenuate the treble, but cannot do so independently from increasing the bass.  The result is getting the treble cooled down often, in my system, leads to too much bass.  And for that reason I will return them and wait to read the reports of how Steve's tubes sound after the CryoTone treatment - which essentially means waiting to see what Lon says.

I'm curious if the spiciness is from the JJ foundation, or from the CryoTone treatment itself.

Well said Safebelayer.

It’s worth noting that beyond sound quality, Steve has an additional motivation that is less directly pressing to Decware customers seeking to tube roll.  The same motivation that brought about the creation of CryoTone.  Namely a reliable supply of sonically consistent, durable, and readily available tubes.  I’m sure the Russian sanction situation has only furthered that concern given Russia and China’s tenuous relationship to the western world, and made CryoTone that much more appealing.

I’m unclear why the USA government has not decided to invest the same $52B they have into domestic chip production into USA based tube manufacturing. That’s a head scratcher…

Lon, thank you for the clarification. The context of power tubes in the previous entries was not clear to me. I do not listen to my system near as much as you do yours. I don't think I'd be able to tell any difference. Annual purchase of power tubes, even just the 4 I would buying, adds up. It makes sense to try to find a quality and durable tube.

DancingSea: "’I'm unclear why the USA government has not decided to invest the same $52B they have into domestic chip production into USA based tube manufacturing. That’s a head scratcher…"

Russia and China still use tubes for industrial purposes. Up until very recently, maybe they still do, Russia used tubes in their space program (space station, ground control, and rockets). The USA does not. Why would they invest $52 billion? I know we're a critical demographic for national infrastructure, but the government doesn't recognize the need for excellence in sound staging, tone, and pretty lights. Maybe we could get a grant thru the arts foundation 🤪

By the way, kudos to everyone who have found the cryotone tubes to be outstanding in their systems. Please report back when they start wearing out or failing.

Archie, did you get to meet Obi-Wan Kenobi during your work on Star Wars?  Pixar is a current customer of CryoTone thus it’s within the realm of possibility that Industrial Light & Magic had tubes in their gear.

Safebelayer - oh, I’m just playing around by imagining what would happen if audiophile logic and priorities were applied to geopolitics… and giggling over the absurdities that would follow…

In other news today, the ruling Audiophile Party has decided to devote the entire 3 trillion dollar budget to speaker cables….