Aloha All,

I haven’t been following the thread lately as I’m very busy designing two houses to be built on my property.  For the sake of efficiency, I’ve eliminated nearly all things related to “wasting time on the internet” of which audiophile internet forums are enemy #1 for me.

Quick comment about Don’s cyro treatment.  According to him, and I have no way of independently verifying his claims, but he says that his cryo treatment is dramatically more advanced and sophisticated than what is typically termed cryo tube treatment.  I gather from that that his form of treatment required a substantially larger equipment financial investment to achieve than what is typically called tube cryo treatment.

I’m 100 hours in on the CryoTone 12AU7 for the ZR2, and the ECC88 for the CSP3 input spot.

With the ZRock2 in the down position on the back, which I believe is just the bass boost without the treble attenuation (and is how I normally utilize the ZRock), the CryoTone tubes remain a bit too hot and spicy for my tastes.  With those settings, I much prefer my Mazda and RCA NOS 12AU7’s (from Brent Jesse), and the run of the mill Russian (boo Russia) 6N1P that came with the CSP3.

However, once I put the rear switch of the ZR2 in the up position and put it around 3 o’clock, the CryoTone tubes chili pepper nature was tamed in a pleasing fashion allowing me to not be so annoyed with the top end and pay more attention to the rest.

And the rest has impressed me so far.  I’m only a Norah Jones and Dire Straits SACD into it, but it does sound pretty good.  Have yet to try non-A+ material.

Shall give it another 100 hours (about a week) to reach 200 and make a final decision.  And even if I decide to keep them, they will not take me off the NOS bandwagon in the least.  I would keep the CryoTone just for the sake of variety, like having another phono cartridge in the drawer for something different.

At 100 hours, and the ZRock2 adjustment, they have done enough to warrant another week of break in.  The sound is bigger and wider, something I value.  Bass has more impact than my Mazda, even on the less bass heavy ZR2 up switch setting.

But without the ZR2 attenuating the treble a touch, these would be going back.  Once again, another ZRock2 miracle.

Wow, you can afford to listen an average of 16 hours a day? Amazing...

Fresh out of the box, my input tube displays no edginess.  Most of the additional detail is in the bass region in my system.  Soundstage equal or better than the NOS I was using.

I'm intrigued enough to think about buying power tubes.

We'll see how they mature.

Yes, I agree that CryoTone brings additional detail and resolution.  On many recordings, that represents an improvement in sound quality over NOS, and to others of lesser ilk - in my opinion - a less pleasing sound.

I’ve faced this, as Steve Guttenberg calls is it, the “resolution vs euphonic” quandary in the past.  

A branch of audiophile ideology seeks ever more resolution as the holy grail, while others prefer more temperate ground.  Just a matter of personal taste.  CryoTone certainly tips the scales in the resolution direction. If that’s what you seek, buy the CryoTone without hesitation.

Interesting that people find more bass or good bass from the Cryotone tubes as I found less bass from the 6SN7, if there were more bass I would have them in use in my main system right now.

I'm with John regarding tone. I used to love Amperex 7308 as the top tier, and Steve's 6N5P with just the right rectifiers are very good. There was something I was lacking with those tube types that I found in the RCA Gray Glass 6NS7. This week I compared the Cryotone to my new standards, Amperex 6085 with adapters. For my room and system they have the "extra" of the Cryotone that I like, and the right warmth and tone.

For me it's all about the full complement--voltage regulator, rectifier, input, output. I'm waiting to try out Steve's output tubes with the Cryotone treatment, I'm not interested in using EL84.

I also should probably note that I am tuning by "gain riding" with gain settings from my source, my preamp, my ZBIT, ZROCK2 and my Monoblocks and also with "modes" and settings on my P15 regenerator; there's a world of different ways the final outcome can be produced.

Just popped in a Wathen ECC88 in my UFO2.  It's all true what they say about these tubes.  Love it.  Old familiar music has more detail and depth.

I see that the 6P15P tubes are on their site now.

Yes, they are now offering the power tubes sourced from Steve.

https://www.wathenspeakers.com/store/p58/6P15P-WC.html

Even though I'm disappointed with the 6SN7 I bought from them and may sell them, these 6P15P-EV tubes are a known  and long time used tube for me--I ordered a pair,  and I hope the Cryotone process will improve them--they cost twice what they do from Steve.

Well, you're right, I just looked at my last invoice which was for 2 pair for 109 total, I was thinking it was for only 1 pair.

If I get three years or so out of a pair and they sound better it will be worth it. (I get about a year out of a pair previously these last few years).

Lon,

You're only getting one year of use out of an input tube. How many hours per day do you listen to your system?

Do you leave your system on throughout the day even if not listening to it?

Dancingsea, what input tubes have you tried besides Steve's Russian?

Peace

John, I'm not a "return things" guy unless things are clearly defective. I'll keep these and play with them especially when the new 6P15P-CW tubes arrive, and then if they still are lower tier tubes for me I'll sell them at a discounted price to someone who may want to try them in their own system.

I have no doubt someone else will really like them as I seem to think almost everyone likes a brighter presentation than I do, my high end hearing is still good and one audiologist suggested I may have a condition where my ears overreact to higher frequency sound when I talked to him about audio playback. I've never pursued this further but the ZROCK2 has been a godsend for me, as well as the "Lon" treble cut circuit.

That's a Treble Cut Circuit that is available for amps, shunted some high frequency signal to ground so it was a tone control outside of the signal path; came stock with some Torii models and I may be the only one who had it added to SE84UFO3 Monoblocks. Steve joked that it should be called the "Lon Treble Cut Circuit" because I seem to be the only one who has requested it to be added to amps and talk about it. (This was in response to someone suggesting an amp be named after me which I thought was ridiculous, Steve turned that on its head pretty cleverly I think).

Let's not go there.

Safebelayer - thank you, I shall add those to the top
of the list to explore.

Good idea Lin, thanks.  I’m new to the CSP3, do seasoned owners normally use a socket saver?  I’m not clear how big of an issue socket wear is.

The socket savers I’ve tried haven’t worked very well for me. The tubes fit so tight in it, that instead of being able to get the tube out of the socket saver, the whole tube and socket saver want to come out of the socket. Is there something I’m missing, or can some recommend a saver brand that might work better?

Geno: The tubes fit so tight in it, that instead of being able to get the tube out of the socket saver, the whole tube and socket saver want to come out of the socket.

Facts.

DS, I would recommend not changing the tube(s) daily. Practically speaking, it takes 20-50 hours to know if a tube will work well. As you can now tell, I don't buy into the 100 hours of break-in.

Once you find some tubes you really like, it is time to focus on enjoying music. I'm encouraging you to not chase the perfect tube or, even worse, tube allotment. You'll spend tons of money and time and miss out lots of great tunes.

Peace

Safebelayer wrote:

Quote:


Yes, that’s the plan.  I’m just trying to find a way to make the CryoTone JJ ECC88 work for me.  As mentioned, they sound great on my A+ audiophile recordings.  My hope was I could just pop them in whenever I listen to those - like adjusting a DAC filter.  But if I’d have to leave them in for weeks at a time, then I’m not so sure.

I have a solid state power amp and rely upon the CSP3/ ZR2 to provide nourishing warmth.  The CryoTone are very audiophile and transparent, which has its place for sure - they’re great tubes for that - but perhaps not what’s right for my euphonic gumbo.

I’m thinking the Amperex and Mullard will be better suited for me.

Lon,

I'm following up on the discussion of buying new input tubes every year after 1500-2000 hours of use (30-40 per week) That's the premise.

I use 6922 type tubes that are rated up to 10,000 hours. I recognize the tube is degrading throughout its usable life. Have you tested your one year old tubes? If so, how did they test compared to new? Which tubes have you used and how did those tubes hold up?

I ask these questions to further my understanding of tube life and utility.

If anyone else wants to contribute to this discussion, please do.

If Steve would add his understanding to this, would be greatly appreciated.

I might add that stating one tube is better than another is frought with fragility. All ears aren't created equally. Shape, acuity, and environment are always different. Stereo components are also unequal. No two components are identical in construction. Micro differences in wire length and thickness. Etc, etc, etc. Therefore, any given tube type and brand will be affected. I might have a high frequency hearing deficiency, which has me liking tubes that particularly emphasize such. Just to be clear, hearing deficiencies occur in multiple ways. It isn't just high, mid or low frequency deficits. People suffer different effects from any specific type of hearing loss.

My point to this discourse is that some, including Steve and his being "uniquely able" to make the claim cryotone are the best tubes, will claim a best tube, but it's only best to them. Lon, Will and myself each like different tubes in their respective amps. Each of us have had the Torii. We do not have the same cables, speakers, front end, software (streamed signal, cd, vinyl), rooms, room treatments or lack thereof, so on and so forth. Steve has an opinion and he has probably acknowledged it is just his opinion, when it comes to what sounds best.

Enough said.

Peace

SB, I was referring solely to the output tubes in my Monoblocks and my Torri which have been the tubes purchased from Steve that he selects, tests and matches. They are not rated for 10,000 hours like many input tubes are. Far less.

From using these for a large part of more than two decades of Decware amp usage I have learned that though I can keep using them longer, they start to decay from their optimum in my systems after about a year's use. In the past I have not clearly realized that and after about a year I found myself making adjustments here and there to get optimal sound. A few years ago I did realize that the tubes were beginning to decay after about a year and began doing what Steve has suggested as a method: replacing them with new tubes and seeing if there was a significant difference. I found that after about 12 or 13 months there was a significant difference that showed the older power tubes were beginning to decline in both frequency extremes and beginning to be curtailed in dynamics. So when they get to that point I replace them.

Input tubes in general I find that I get quite longer life out of, some four or five years, as a few of the components such as the ZROCK2 don't "push" the tube hard in their circuits.

That is different than preferring the sound of one tube or tube type over another as there are so many factors involved in that such as isolation components, power treatment, cabling, and of course the rooms themselves and the tastes of the owners.

Quote:


Back when working in the Star Wars Program in the 80s I remember laughing at how the Russians still used vacuum tubes until it was pointed out that they are EMP resistant.  Nuclear bombs produce EMP pulses that would take out our entire satellite network while theirs still functioned.

Quote:


While there were many brilliant and capable people involved, watching how the government threw away money took the wind out of my young engineer sails.  I'm much more fulfilled remolding people's kitchens.  

Give the government 3 trillion and they might produce a cable that's not worse than Radio Shack.

Code:

[size=14]How about those cryotone tubes? [/size] 

safebelayer wrote:
Quote:


Jon, I forgot to reply to this. Thanks for asking.

The CSP3 with Jupiter beeswax signal cap upgrade has been well. But it needs a major upgrade from there, after hearing the Steve's fully decked 25th Anniversary Edition that I have since sold [no headphone jack] and the astonishing sonics it provided, the CSP3 I have now is wanting in comparison [thanks though for the 4 pin mini-XLR jack, which I will use for my recent acquisition of the Audeze LCD-4].....so a forum member has kindly provided me a plan to address this glaring shortcoming, his version of Steve's full 25th anniversary mods & more. I have all the parts ($300 in an array of Miflex PIO and Cu-paper caps and a small slew of much better resistors, plus those small VR tubes), which will save $300 in labor. I should have attacked this some time ago, and I need to get on it before the much anticipated Torii MK 5 arrives in about 3-4 months. Once I get done, the CSP3 should be at least as good, likely even better than Steve's outstanding 25th Anniversary Edition.

Good to hear you’re being taken care of.

If I met K. Deal, I’d probably piss all over him. Ha.