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The Audio Gods just had some fun with me. (Read 7465 times)
Steve Deckert
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The Audio Gods just had some fun with me.
03/16/22 at 04:06:32
 


Needing some respite from all the BS in the world and the recent rush on tubes -- I needed to and did in fact get into a creative zone and just let the universe channel some spontaneity my way to make something productive happen.

This lead to cleaning parts of my shop which lead to finding the Silver 8 driver by Lii and pondering the ideal cabinet. I have avoided using these drivers because of the published response which has an aggressive presence peak and the T&S parameters short out my box program and suggest there will be no low bass despite the 35Hz resonance of the driver in any size box no matter how it's tuned!

Then on a complete fluke I decided since it has such a low QTS I should see what happens in the HDT cabinet and this lead to naturally having to cut the hole larger but I was getting that vibe from Gods that kept me from hesitating despite knowing it was irreversible. I think that's faith. Plus I was right in the middle of cleaning. This is how I multitask.

Fast forward a couple hours and the result was mind numbing and now the mess was overwhelming. But when I hooked up the speakers and got them re-tuned, I drug them into the listening room and made some YouTube videos of it with no burn-in. I'm at about 10 hours now, and having a profound experience.  It's the juiciest single-driver speaker I have ever heard. This one toped all the charts as well as put the house speakers back in their place which is hard to do. But that's nothing compared to what happened tonight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4nuQIi-pi0&list=PLO14X7TvgezgIzyqCbTEgKTNUAmEp2...

Tonight I'm listening to them in the listening chair for the first time and just letting Roon pick stuff from my library. I am using the Holo Audio May Dac, the CSP325 and the SE84UFO25 with all Decware cables. The gravity of that black hole became so strong that had I not escaped when I did, you would have never seen me again, and I wouldn't have been able to write this report...

So some bizarre things happened to me while I listened. I almost felt like I've never heard a hi-fi before. The sound was so amazing it felt like the first time. And as it would happen the first several tracks that were selected were 10 minutes long each, and for me to stick with it for 10 minutes, it's got to be really good.  To do that two or three times back to back has never happened. After all I'm pretty spoiled. Every track that came on, many that I thought I didn't particularly dig, had me dumbstruck in my listening chair.  I simply couldn't believe how deep I got into the recording. The level of detail was like 10 times what I thought was there.  I actually tripped on the spit in an amazing recording of a French horn where time slowed down to probably 15/20 seconds and the spit became this textured sound of something else when in fact it was probably less than a second long. The Anniversary amp and preamp just showed me what they can actually do for the very first time. Took it up another notch so high I have to get on my tip toes to reach it.  This was on steroids compared to my first ravings about the Anniversary amps on the DNA2 speakers, my goto at that time.

This is ear candy. I won't compare it to what I imagine it must be like to be female and have multi-orgasm in your ears, but there you go. I could only take so much and I had to escape. Everything was so right it went beyond right and got completely crazy. Then I came back to earth and realized there is no fricking way this driver has a nearly 10dB presence peak because it's just glass smooth, and the low bass completely blew my mind.  It has the same low bass as the giant 10 inch Lii Reference cabinet in half the space.

None of this was making any sense which is how I know the Audio Gods were here. So I looked again at the frequency response graph for the Silver 8 drivers as three of the Gods just stood there and shook their heads... then one said go measure it. So I did.


click to enlarge


As you can see it doesn't even measure like the same driver. The light blue is the HDT with the Silver 8 driver after I re-tuned it. The original plot underneath is the anechoic response of the driver by itself in a large measuring baffle.

I was then shown that the passive radiators on the side of the main driver that are cross-coupled on the same plane are doing exactly what I originally designed them to do, but are having an effect I didn't anticipate. They and the other independently tuned chambers in the cabinet are pushing and pulling the response into a flatter line.

While I puzzle at how the response got flat I am shown it happening in my minds eye.  A combination of little vacuums, eddy currents of pressure variants and phase overlaps that cancel and rebuild things... it was amazing to watch.  Sadly that's as best as I can explain it, but when I see it happening in slow motion like that, I just understand it.  Can't explain it, but I understand it completely so far as I know.

This means it is possible to correct a horrible frequency response with an esoteric cabinet design instead of a crossover. It's been 30 years since I designed this speaker cabinet and tonight I was finally shown that A) I didn't design it, I channeled it, and B) I was finally shown how it actually works.

It also means that this was part two of my lesson about the 3 way crossover / house speakers I made to try to disprove my own hype about single driver speakers in an effort to keep myself honest. They're the ones (Audio Gods) who challenged me to make those in the first place so you can see how they operate.

So right now the sound is so good in here that I can safely say I've never heard anything better, not even in this room which is a good thing considering the company tonight who btw say hello.  



Happy listening!

Steve



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Brian
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Re: The Audio Gods just had some fun with me.
Reply #1 - 03/16/22 at 06:38:26
 
"This means it is possible to correct a horrible frequency response with an esoteric cabinet design instead of a crossover. It's been 30 years since I designed this speaker cabinet and tonight I was finally shown that A) I didn't design it, I channeled it, and B) I was finally shown how it actually works." - Steve


Tremendously exciting!

Brian
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Re: The Audio Gods just had some fun with me.
Reply #2 - 03/16/22 at 18:31:39
 
Steve -

I hope this driver will make it's way into the HDT at some point. It certainly adds another option for me to consider when it comes time for new speaks.

Do you imagine the new driver will make the speakers more/less sensitive re: room placement?  In the owners manual for the current edition it does indicate it is possible to think you have your speakers placed correctly, you'll likely want to experiment because you may not have it right.



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Steve Deckert
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Re: The Audio Gods just had some fun with me.
Reply #3 - 03/16/22 at 18:48:45
 

We are discontinuing the DFR8 that we used in the HDT.  Instead we will sell the Silver 8, and that is also what will go into the cabinets from this point forward.

Steve

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Re: The Audio Gods just had some fun with me.
Reply #4 - 03/17/22 at 00:21:51
 
" I won't compare it to what I imagine it must be like to be female and have multi-orgasm in your ears..."   Grin
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Steve Deckert
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Re: The Audio Gods just had some fun with me.
Reply #5 - 03/19/22 at 03:11:40
 

Got to spend some time in the listening chair last night around midnight, and wanted to explore the imaging prowess of the HDT SILVER 8 combination. So when I do this I go to certain electronic music for two reasons, I want to evaluate the speaker not the recording and having no recording process involved eliminates a big variable. Two, I want to hear how big of a space the speakers/amp/room combination can create, not how big the space was at a live recording with 2 mics. We'll get to all that, but for now it's about finding music that is nuanced, textured, spacious, and holographic so we can find out in a couple tracks what the boundaries of the sound stage are.

Anyway, the chair is glorious compared to the couch. I can feel the music come up through the floor and the chair has the music in it.  Here is a pic of the chair.



Compared to the sound, this is a relatively small and crowded room that thankfully disappears when you close your eyes and start the music.

So I did some really careful listening to see how deep, how wide and how high it got, but the big mistake there is that this is the dimensions of a square or rectangle. If everything is working right, there is no rectangle in electronic music. Interestingly, as I listened last night it became as clear as a bell that it is rendering a dome that surrounds me at a distance of about 8 feet and the dome is about 8 feet thick on the sides past my shoulders, and about 80 feet thick in front of me. Sounds trail through this space from one point to another with amazing precision. Sadly I don't have words to describe it much better than that, but I am able to draw the sound stage to scale of pretty much exactly what I am hearing so I did.  Here is the sound stage from my eyes at the listening chair, however I pulled it back about 6 feet so you could see more of the space. I don't hear anything coming out of the very top of the dome so I didn't include it in the picture.



(click to enlarge)



A sound canvas like this never gets old, and I still find it endlessly fascinating that this illusion can be created with two speakers, two ears, and a head to separate them. As you look at this planetarium shaped sound stage with the missing front wall -- imagine placing your speakers against the front wall with a reflective TV between them.  What would that do to this sound picture? It would at the very least seal up the opening, if not bring the entire dome crashing down into a fairly flat pile of sound not much higher or wider than the speakers and with almost no depth.

Interestingly another way to create almost the exact same catastrophe is to use the wrong electronics in this otherwise nearly perfect space.

The speakers, as long as they don't suck, are the least contributory part of this illusion.  It's the room, source, cables, and amplifier and preamp that creates or destroys it. But once you get it to happen, then better speakers just get more exciting because there is such a massive canvas to paint the sound image on and expansive room for the extra resolution the better speakers will bring.



Have a great weekend and happy listening!

Steve










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Steve Deckert
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Re: The Audio Gods just had some fun with me.
Reply #6 - 03/19/22 at 03:28:58
 

Thinking ahead, here is what I was listening to:



The first, second and seventh tracks are what I used.

Ironically this album cover is not that far off. In fact it's pretty damn accurate. See the violet colored almost feather looking shape on the left? That was rendered so vividly in the recording that I can actually recognize it in the picture. : )

To look at this album art after listening in my room I can tell the incredibly talented artist was listening to it while he/she was painting it.

Steve

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Re: The Audio Gods just had some fun with me.
Reply #7 - 03/19/22 at 06:35:43
 
I've been intrigued by the HDTs for a while now and a few months ago wondered how they would sound with one of the Lii drivers. So I'm excited to learn they have been updated and are now offered with the Silver 8.

IIRC, given how accurate these speakers are, Steve recommended them in treated rooms, otherwise the bass could be a bit overwhelming.

I'm wondering how they sound in a near-field situation, away from the walls but in an untreated room with the new driver?
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Re: The Audio Gods just had some fun with me.
Reply #8 - 03/19/22 at 16:44:17
 
From what I understand of Steve description, I shouldn't very far from it with my set up, but I am waiting for my UFO to see ....
Steve I would appreciate you could listen to groups like Alpamayo, Sacambaya, Jach'A Mallku, Altiplano Fusion Band and tell if you confirm your impression with such music.
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Re: The Audio Gods just had some fun with me.
Reply #9 - 03/20/22 at 05:25:07
 
I am very intrigued. You have renewed my fascination with the HDTs!
Are you planning to update the HDT plans at all?


Steve, I love the fact that you had your Cat Consultant with you for the YouTube vid. The cat went into hyper listening mode around 2:00 minutes in and a few seconds later goes into HUNT mode.
Smiley
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Steve Deckert
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Re: The Audio Gods just had some fun with me.
Reply #10 - 03/26/22 at 04:39:11
 

I know, my cats are great.  I love watching how they listen to music, and they do.  They come in when the music goes on, and they listen.  It's fascinating to watch them year in and year out.

The Gods live in the cats.

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Re: The Audio Gods just had some fun with me.
Reply #11 - 03/26/22 at 05:37:08
 


They are sill having some fun with me.  This weekend's story isn't about a personal visit or epiphany or anything like that, just an interaction with one of the watchers... it's the only one who has a name,  Murphy.

So this story is about the TORII MK5.  There were prototypes going back many years now that failed to make the grade. I could never get them better than the MK4 despite trying on more than one sincere occasion. Actually one of them probably was better but the layout and such created so much heat I just felt it would freak people out.

Anyway I found one of these amps and tested it and it was apparently inbetween design changes/tweaks because it was a fairly half-baked circuit that wasn't fully thought out.  Seeing it within minutes a few years later is testament to my steady learning curve.  Anyway I "fixed it" and listened to it and was stunned at the sound that came out of it. It was genuinely special. I agreed to sell it to one of you -- before I discovered it needed "fixed". I wanted to keep it now. So I had my crew duplicate it for me so I would have one exactly like it. Problem was, the power transformers were just slightly different. It was enough to loose the magic and the power.  I could only get about 5 watts out of it. We had just fallen below the knee point and the circuit was tanking.

So again it went on ice for several more weeks. Meanwhile I ordered different transformers, sadly not exactly like the originals but higher voltage so that I could make sure this amplifier came out of it's coma.

The original was around 340 Volts at the plates, the highest point. The new version is 430 Volts at the plates. Now this is as you can see nearly 100 volts higher than most Decware amplifiers, the only exception being the Zen TORII Mono's.

Is there an ideal voltage? Yes. One for me, one for you, one for everyone else too. As a general rule, the Decware sound pocket lives in the sub 400 volt range. This is where the musicality lives. As you go up in voltage, accuracy and then clinical sound take over. The sound is cooler, harder. Frankly it is the sound I hear in almost all hi fi tube amps on the retail market as they are all focused on max power for the tube type with lowest distortion.

So I am curious to see how this will change my dear TORII 'one-off' and into the listening room I go. I hook it up to my house speakers and having just come off the Zen TORII MONO's for a reference I heard similar accuracy but less bass. The sound was cooler, ultra tight, super fast. It was incredibly clean but frankly it sounded like so many of the main stream retailed tube amps that I found myself thinking "this is the danger zone." This higher voltage might be what really differentiates Decware from everyone else.  Now I have a 450v Zen TORII and it sounds like a main stream tube amplifier brand but cleaner.

30 minutes pass and the amp is warming up and sounding better, but I am listening at the bench not in the listening chair. The couple times I bounced in there is was too lean which was disturbing because it didn't make sense and just fed my paranoia about higher voltages.

BACK STORY: One of my Zen TORII Mono's has the output stage wired out of phase, the other amp is fine. It's another long story and maybe some day I tell it... Nevertheless you have to remember to wire that amplifier out of phase as it is of critical importance. I have forgotten many times and warped my brain and shortened my life in the process. SO I have become religious about remembering to always reverse phase at the amp on the right channel!

So when I hooked up my new amp experiment I hooked it up out of phase. I listened to it this way for almost an hour while "Father Murphy" got a nut off watching it all go down.

Yes, I finally realized it and reversed the wires. Naturally it was a holy crap moment. So now the amp sounds like a Decware amplifier in every way. Thank God. Not that I am going to sell it, but please...

Ironically this amp too, despite not actually running overly high bias on the tubes is baking ass hot on the chassis. I could never sell it despite the appealing sounds has, it is laid out too tight because the chassis collects so much infrared energy that you could just about cook on it after several hours of operation.

The amplifier is not actually hot just the chassis is hot. It's an illusion from the infrared but try to explain this to a customer?

Here is a pic of it on the bench. Wonderful 1st harmonic at 3% with higher orders being ultra low.  Very SET sounding but cleaner.





And here is a pic of the amp in the chassis.



The rectifiers are on socket savers to raise them higher so that the plates will be above the transformers to lower the heat coupling.

It's got that Decware sound and drives the 88dB house speakers rather well.  And if you hook it up out of phase it sounds pretty rude.


Have a great weekend, and since it's probably raining, do some listening : )


Steve







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Steve Deckert
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Re: The Audio Gods just had some fun with me.
Reply #12 - 04/04/22 at 05:42:42
 
Having fun with me -- is now becoming a little tedious. This amp is sounding wonderful until it gets hot and then I can't tell because I am so distracted by the heat. The placebo effect of something running too hot is 100 times stronger than objectivity -- but the reality is that I don't care if the sound changes or not, why does it get so damn hot? It's had three or four checkups already and nothing is ever wrong with it.

So this head game is on one end of the room and on the other is the new HDT SILVER 8's and they are still being driven by the Zen Triode Anniversary Amplifier and matching preamp. Also the HOLO Audio DAC and ZBIT are the source.

The sound on this end of the room is creating a planetarium sized sound stage as I've mentioned before but since mentioning it and drawing this image, I have been keeping it in my mind as I continue to listen to make sure it's really accurate on more than just one series of recordings. After all I'd hate to have to walk it back... Well it turns out that holy crap it's really accurate on a wide variety! These speakers and amp are imaging like there is no tomorrow!

If you look at the image and picture yourself setting between the two circles on the floor and centered between the speakers in an equidistant triangle, that would be the listening chair. And the giant bowl is how I am hearing everything... everything except my room which seems to be completely uninvolved with the sound but actually is.



(click to enlarge)



Also, something else has been happening with this combination that really hasn't happened all that often before and I find it really interesting!

The blackness of the background and the dynamics and presence and speed are combining to create scenarios where any time there is a momentary pause in the music and then a note or sound announces itself from the inky black background I find myself jumping. It's happened several times so far, I would say 10 times. The music is actually startling me. It's the contrast. Big time contrast. Not only in dynamics,  but from inky black nothingness to POW right there in front you... contrast in imaging and vividness that cross that line between recorded and real. The best sensation I can equate this experience to would be stepping out in front of an oncoming car and nearly getting hit and then doing it several more times over the next 10 minutes...  no there's no alcohol. It's like the cars are now actually going 200 mph instead of 45 mph and your mind hasn't adjusted to it yet.

These speakers have more refinement than the 15 inch open baffles I love so much. They also have more refinement than the 10 inch Lii drivers in cabinets or in baffles. So when I originally designed and voiced the 25th Anniversary Zen Triode Amplifier and then proceeded to trip on how it sounded for 6 months... I was listening to the DM947's and occasionally the original HDT's with the DFR8 drivers. The DM947's had that seductive musical black hole effect, and the HDT/DFR8 had that extreme presence, but there was separation between the two.. Big difference in sound. Now we have the same sound as the DM947 (later to become the DNA2) with it's seductive musicality but the resolution is simply gone from HD to 4K.

This is a combination I didn't expect to ever find, so now I am hearing my 25th Anniversary amp and preamp combo really for the first time. I am having flashbacks from the first go around but now it is to a level that is actually at edge of my ability to handle it without jumping out of the chair and going for a walk around the yard to process it which has btw happened more than once already.

Hearing this amp again for the first time while at the same time dragging my dick through the meat grinder with the other amp's heat problem is how the Audio Gods keep it balanced -- but always there has to be lessons. The ones I remember first are the ones that hurt the most. That is the methodology of Gods.

Nevertheless, the reason I wanted to repost this picture is because it has turned out to be so accurate. Just imagine yourself setting between the two circles on the floor and between the speakers. This is the space I hear when I press play and things are drawn through it and on the bowl shape dome with laser precision.  

It makes me realize that if HIFI sounded like THIS for the masses, surround sound would have never been invented because there is no reason to invent what already is.

It also makes me realize that my instincts about Lii Audio / Lii Song's drivers were well founded. Our DFR (Decware Full-Range 8 inch Driver) was a Fostex driver that was nearly unlistenable in it's stock form. We had to change the suspension and absorb the the model resonance peak at 1K in the cone before it could be considered as a serious audiophile driver IMHO.  These Silver 8 drivers that have a similar low Q and high efficiency sound like they were made for the HDT cabinet and need no fancy elaborate modifications whatsoever, which is how it should be, so I have happily discontinued the DFR8 drivers and we will use the Silver 8 in all future HDT loudspeakers.


Steve






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Re: The Audio Gods just had some fun with me.
Reply #13 - 04/04/22 at 12:33:30
 
Quote:
It makes me realize that if HIFI sounded like THIS for the masses, surround sound would have never been invented because there is no reason to invent what already is.

Since getting serious finishing my listen room, I have thought the same over the last 2 years.

Quote:
If you look at the image and picture yourself setting between the two circles on the floor and centered between the speakers in an equidistant triangle, that would be the listening chair. And the giant bowl is how I am hearing everything... everything except my room which seems to be completely uninvolved with the sound but actually is.

Looking at the drawing reminds me of unintentional harm done to my left ear drum over life. I always enjoyed cruising in the summer time with the window down and left arm resting on the window sill. Matter of fact I just did it last week after a bike ride driving home in sunny 60 degree weather. Now my left ear does not work as well as the right. I can only conclude that the air rushing past and ambient noise presented while driving at high speeds has damaged(hardened?) the ear drum. Or, maybe the ear canal changed in some way to protect the ear drum. Mystery too me but very true!
John
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Re: The Audio Gods just had some fun with me.
Reply #14 - 04/04/22 at 14:35:13
 
Quote:
Now my left ear does not work as well as the right.


Seriously, if you never have done it, check the ear for blockage due to wax build up.  You'd be surprised what builds up over time!  
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Re: The Audio Gods just had some fun with me.
Reply #15 - 04/04/22 at 17:00:37
 
Archie,
Believe it or not the left ear gets very little wax build up compared to the right. I had an ear exam 2 years ago. Test showed left was weaker. Was referred to my doctor to remove excess wax build up in the right. Go figure Huh

John
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Re: The Audio Gods just had some fun with me.
Reply #16 - 04/05/22 at 15:30:24
 
I've been running the EML 5u4g tubes in my Torii MKIV. The amp runs so cool now. I can rest my hand on the 5u4g all day and it's only warm.

https://vimeo.com/695687246

The rest of the amp is much cooler too.

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Re: The Audio Gods just had some fun with me.
Reply #17 - 04/17/22 at 16:37:02
 
Hi Steve,

What "Tuning" did you do to the HDT after the silver 8 install?
I want to put a silver 8 into my HDTs. I can do the woodwork.  Did you shorten an internal tube? cut a different port hole? change mass on the passives?
I don't have measurement tools. I just want to copy what you did.

I love my ZBIT>SE84UFO25>STYX>Silver10 full cabinet system.  Riding the gain to eargasms all day.

My ZMA25, dm947, hdt, and many older Decware things are all DUSTY.
My current subwoofer as well.  And I don't think I'll ever get around to building a WO32 again... just don't need it anymore.

My one issue is: my house is small, and silver 10s are huge.  So modding my HDT's is very interesting to me.

thanks

(Maybe I should dm or email.  Trying this first)
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Re: The Audio Gods just had some fun with me.
Reply #18 - 04/18/22 at 16:58:25
 

The modifications to the original HDT to become an HDT Silver 8 are pretty simple.

A) Cut the opening for the driver larger so the Silver 8 will fit.

B) Plug the lower rear port.

That's it.
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Re: The Audio Gods just had some fun with me.
Reply #19 - 04/18/22 at 23:20:20
 
haha. plug the port.  got it.
Thank you Sir!   I'll be getting your 300B when they're ready.  300B + HDTsilver8 is a combination I want to hear.

thanks
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Re: The Audio Gods just had some fun with me.
Reply #20 - 04/21/22 at 11:56:39
 
ギャンブルの還元率、パチンコは約86%、競馬は約75%、宝くじは約47%、そしてブラックジャックは最大102%、 これってすごいよね。 まずはルールを覚えたりで練習が必要、そこで初回のオンラインカジノ 入金のボーナスを利用し、プレイ金額を倍とかにしてまずはプレイしてみよう!
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Auguie
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Re: The Audio Gods just had some fun with me.
Reply #21 - 10/14/22 at 20:57:03
 
Steve,

Above you state that modifying HDT’s with the Silver 8 speakers require making the hole in the cabinet larger to accommodate the new speaker and plugging the port.  Can you recommend the best tool to use to enlarge the hole, and what to use to plug the port.  This looks like a great project to upgrade my HDT’s.  Thanks in advance for your help.

Dan
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Decware SE84CS M Monoblocks & HDT Speakers; First Sound Presence Deluxe MK I Pre Amp; Denafrips Aries II DAC;Innous ZenMini MKII server;VPI Scout/Dynavector 10X5 Cart;Phenomena II Phono Pre;XLO/Wireworld/Signal/Transparent Cables.
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