Yeah, Lon, I would stop at don't do anything, if it was about the pain. But I can't stop fidgeting, from somewhere else deeper inside.

I tend to have sinus issues (as these later years impend upon me) this time of year with the rapid weather changes. I sneeze twenty or more times in ten minutes sometimes.
I don't care usually, just feel better to sneeze a few times than have a cold for a couple of weeks.
But a couple of broken ribs makes it all just that much more fun, however.

I find that the same forgiving movements that can change a CD can also swing a paint brush.
I painted my "H" frames white to go with the white mock up baffles I have inside.

I had sort of halfway suggested to my treasured wife that I would make any bare wood trials and tests I was playing with to be a very short term thing inside the house.
Well, that quickly evolved into COMPLETED LAW and uhm, I'm waiting for some paint to cure before I attempt to wrestle my new subwoofer system to the inside digs.

I did bring in a couple of '90s era Infinity 12" powered subwoofers to goof with, but they are black. Plus, the lowest crossover point is 40Hz at 24db/octave. Intended to go with that timescale of home theater systems, mostly. There were a lot of little sat systems that struggled to reach down to 100Hz in those days.

I feel that they can not disappear enough, since there is still some output that reaches beyond the low range of the F15s. This overlap tells me that the F15s are putting out a substantial amount of lows in the 60hz region now.
So, back to the attic with the Infinitys. Although, I might leave them in the garage, since they are some really nice sounding sealed woofers.

They do offer a passive input where I can supply an outboard amplifier and crossover system like my Alesis, Yamaha, DBX or Crown eXOs which all go down to 20Hz.
If I'm doing all that again though, I'll choose something else, not boxed.

I believe these Lii F15 can deliver more bass than what we think. When I bought them and tried the OB, I knew it won't be easy to get a load of bass in my room.
OK, the drivers had not a long enough running time, but I decided to go for the Karlsonator, in fact that was in my mind when I bought them, but if I could have avoided the complexity of the built, the better, alas !
Now, I can "feel" the bass, this shows me these F15 can go really down to the cave with speakers prone to it.

@same old DD
Difficult to answer to your question. What I know is the OB system wasn't enough in the bass region, in my room , and the Karlson works well. As I made a previous small bookshelf size Karlson with success, I would say I tried my luck with a huge size one with a 15' driver. Karlson made them for a single driver, be it LB or coax. If you don't DIY, you have barely any chance to listen to one Karlson and that the main reason nobody is looking at it.
But I don't want to spoil the thread with that, from my personnal experience, I believe these Lii F15 are not used to their full potential. I hope some adventurous minds would push them further !

DD, I've been following this thread with interest, as I have a couple of pairs of F-15s still in boxes. Takes me a while to do anything anymore, especially when I'm remodelling my house. I have one pair of the F-15 for sale, still brand new in the box. Let me know if you are interested.
Also, the Karlson enclosure interests me, so I found this:
https://www.scribd.com/document/335288880/1955-Karlson-Speaker-Brochure
Some of the illustrations look a little goofy, but it's almost 70 years old, so that's probably not surprising. I'm linking it because it looks like it has measurements and other useful information. Hope it helps (and I apologize if it has been linked here already, and I missed it).
Randy

My bad for the link, it doesn't give interesting result, I have to search where they hide.
Here :
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/karlson.213594/page-18#post-7222192
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/karlsonator.239386/page-18#post-71932...
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/mini-karlsonator-0-53x-with-dual-tc9f...
Freddi & Greg were members of the old site

DD, I'm with you on using the Karlson enclosure for bass only. That's my primary interest, as I have a brand new pair of Hawthorne Audio Augies that I've had forever. I have another pair in an open baffle, so I'd like to see what kind of difference I would get in an enclosure. I have to admit, though, that it's a little ways down on my DIY list, but I'm interested.

As for the F15s, check back with me when you're ready. At the rate that things are going, I may still have them. I'm going to put them on US Audio Mart next, so we'll see what happens there.

Randy

Scratch that last post, the PSW10 is junk. I did some critical listening with it last night for the first time since the holidays and I gave it back. I’m sticking with the f15s being a sublime open baffle alone.
DD, I’m curious to hear how you W sun blends with them. I think there is some opportunity to improve the low end but it certainly isn’t bad as-is and perfect for “most” music.

I agree, Bottlehead. The only reason I would want a Karlsonator is for deep lows, but from what I see others posting, the Karlsonator enclosures don't do the sub bass range very well, in my view.

So far I still like my "H" frames with the old JBLs in them. I managed to build the JBLs up with an Fs of 22Hz (oringinal 2235 replacement parts are all gone), but the Qts as nearly as I can figure is in the 0.55 area, so not the ideal 0.707 either.
Getting closer to a nice match with my F15s, though, but I feel I have compromised the "speed" of these old drivers by adding (coating, like in the old days) mass to attain a lower Fs.

If I had about $800 bucks sitting idly, I might just recone them again with more modern components and see if I can get the Qts even higher with lighter materials and not worry about Fs too much.

The accuracy is awesome, however. So detailed, except for some hang over at certain frequencies which can still bug me at times. Not often, but I do hear something at times. I don't really have a way to do a "waterfall" response test, but I can sometimes hear some lingering low frequencies that were not intended in a recording.
I hear similar things with almost every low frequency driver I have heard, though. Low frequency reproduction is the bane of existence for most of us.
Every time you think it works, you have to pick it apart and find every wart, so to speak.

I would love to get my hands on a Rhythmic servo amp at some point! I am still using an early Yamaha servo system for my computer sound and the bass is impressive from an 8" driver. I want that on a larger scale for all my listening.

On the other hand, I have a few more to play with. I asked once before if anyone had any exerience with '90s era (pre Klipsch) Jamo infinite baffle subwoofers and got no response.
I tried these out in my garage as I was between painting steps and found them to work really well. I will probably try these in my "H" frames next.
I know many folks think of Jamo as an absolute joke these days, after Klipsch destroyed all that the old company stood for. But, some of these old Danish and German drivers made some very pleasant sounds in those days.

I do remember Steve talking about using mismatched drivers when he was building up his Imperials. He had a Black Widow and I think an Eminence combination that he said worked well together. Kind of makes me want to just replace one of the drivers instead of both at the same time in my present set up.
So many options!

I also have some well broken in Dayton 15s to play with, but I have not even hooked them up since I got them from a friend who I had updated all his sub woof attic systems last year. I traded a carburator from my '70 Chevelle to get all eight of them.

Hi, Tooppy, I listened to that guys vid and I have had many of the same epiphanous moments he described.

It seems to me that everyone with a new subwoofer just wants it to shake the floor and they are happy. That is NOT what subwoofers are supposed to do for us.
To me, if I ever hear my subwoofer system then it is not set up properly. I have more work to do!

I have other more satisfying ways to shake the floor with amazingly good sound, so none of that sub-noise ever impresses me.
The funny thing is that, similar to how that guy descibes it, going from "NO DAMN SUB" to "Well, OK, maybe" was a long journey for me as well.

Using many large, old school studio monitors as my mains over the years, using any kind of sub system was never even an option that I would think about.

Now, with the fullness of time passing and as fully enriching as the sound of the Lii Audio F15s have proven to be to me, I am determined to supplement that lowest octave in a pleasing and invisible way.
I am on another journey.

For the same reason that an open baffle is a different experience than a box speaker it makes sense that a boxed sub won’t play well with an OB full range driver… so I’ll bet your H/dipole method is a giant leap towards integrating the two.
I had RELs with my Maggie’s and they were the best I’ve heard, but that only means the best “I’ve heard” which doesn’t mean much. Either way, the RELs didn’t agree with the F15s the way they did with the mags.
I agree, DD. Classical music is where the bottom registers are missing the most with me too.
@ Troopy- yes, one of the big reasons I have arrived at the system I have now is the simplicity. It just sounds so good for just a 2 watt amp and two speakers. I’m lucky my wife is supportive of whatever stereo mumbo jumbo I want to intrude into our living space but eliminating much of the rats nest of wiring, subs, magic boxes, etc. has been an integral part of a clean, simple system with an aural realistic sound stage.

Manny, you are right in that most of us using open baffle speakers are never going to be satisfied with any boxed subwoofer system.

Tried it. Ain't doin' it!

I have altered my set up a little. I now have my roll off set to 12dB/octave instead of 24dB and I have lowered the crossover frequency a little, 28Hz, now.
I think that my effort to help the subwoofer system seem less intrusive, I rolled it off too fast at first. 12dB/octave seems a bit better.

This sounds so much more well mated and "disappearing" than when I was still messing around with steeper slopes and higher XO points.
The F15s don't really need a boost to anything they can do, just a small amount of extension below where they can reach on their own.

I am getting closer.
I intend to give this set up a few weeks without any change and many good long listens, with and without the subwoofer system.

LOL
Honestly Tooppy, the ZROCK has been on my radar ever since I heard about its existence.

I have not changed my set up this week except for speaker placement.

I have moved things around quite a bit, but keep coming back to almost the same as my original instincts suggested.
I keep hearing how an equilateral triangle for speaker placement and listening position is best, but I have gone with more of an obtuse isosceles triangle, one angle greater than 90 degrtees.
So I sit a little closer than the horizontal spread of the drivers.

This seems to give me the best balance of everything, including mating the full range with the dipole subwoofer placement.
Not that I am running out of ideas, but ideas which improve things seem to be running out and I believe that something close to "About Right" has been approached quite closely for now.

Still looking at the ceiling and have yet to apply any treatments up there.
All that within the fullness of time to come.

Yep, definitely obtuse. I think my angle is more like 105 degrees, but we seem to be very close.

I have not even tried to use my laser level in here, as one suggested, but I did cut some old nylon braided strings to play around with distances a little more surely.
That and a half roll of tape with notes everywhere, my space looks a little dodgy in the wife's eyes.

I can pull up "most" of the tape now, but I have not decided it was time to invest all that additional bending just yet.
... baby steps!

I've been doing more listening than posting lately.  AS it should be, if I was writing the book.

I have been using some cryo'ed PsVayne 6P15P tubes for a good year and a half.
I had no reference with the same tube non-cryo'ed, so I never entered the discussion when it was live, except to attempt humor in a very serious discussion with my first experience using cryo'ed tools, my geologist pick  (Which I still have, BTW, but I need an outing!).

Last night one of my treasured tubes went supernova on me. It literally lit up the entire room while playing at 1AM and the sound on one side went goofy.

I don't have any spares of the cryo'ed 6P15Ps, but I do have a couple dozen original SV83s from several purchases, nothing actually matched.

SO I decided to go with four SV83s all around, until I can buy some more "nice" tubes.

I do not own a tester. After a half hour switching them in and out trying to  find a match the hard way, I think I became numb or something.

Then I quit fiddling with stuff and just sat down again to listen.
Expecting to hear disambiguities, misbegotten tones, everything wrong.

Turns out, I was wrong.
Once I got tired of jumping around changing tubes every few (long) minutes, trying for that last nugget that I was sure was now missing since one of my favorite tubes had gone south, I started to just listen again, but more deeply. And the deeper I went into the music the better 'everything" sounded.
I had shut off my dipole sub to re-evaluate what I was hearing using only the F15s.

Shortening this long escapade, I have begun to appreciate again the  simple voicing this amp was designed to use.

I can not draw a conclusion, yet, but this is sounding great although a bit different.

I need to do more listening.

Going from older '60s jazz to some psyche things from the '60s, like the Zombies and the Kinks, Early Jefferson Airplane, Thirteenth Floor, Steppenwolf and Pink Floyd.

After the game, I intend to put on some of my favorite Deutsche Grammophon LPs.

After a football game, I will have had my ears reset!

Those JJs seem to filling the bill for now. They sound so much better with these F15s than I remember a few years ago trying them with the B200+quad 15s implementation of open baffle speakers which I had used for ages.
I remember hearing some bass flutter and sloppiness with that arrangement. Of course, the old ones I have were not matched well nor were they cryo' treated.

Not so with these AND, since I have been listening to a lot of music from the '40s and '50s lately, I have not even turned on my newish dipole subwoofer system in more than a week. No bass flutter at all! Smooth and precise the new tubes feel.

Yesterday, while I was changing LPs, I dropped one of my covers and it fell behind the sub cabinet.
I have its positioning marked and so I just scooted it out of the way intending to put it back later when I use it again. It's heavy so I twisted and manuvered it to where I could reach my escaping LP cover better.
Then sat down to listen.

LORDY AUDIO GODS looking in from Heaven, but moving a non-used speaker system about two feet and turning it changed the room in ways I would not have thought possible.

At first I thought I was just being a baby and nothing really changed. So I marked where I had haphazardly moved it to and replaced it to where I had its best position for use marked. Damn, I'm not imagining this phenomenon. I'm not just being a baby. It made a remarkable difference in room response depending upon where I place the subwoofer cabinet just sitting there idle, turned off and not used.

Now, without much thought time wasted, I understand how that can be, but I was unprepared for how dramatically the small movement of an unused component had changed the entire room. This is a small room and I also understand that smaller changes can make bigger differences in small spaces, but just WOW!

Now I am sitting here (possibly wasting thought time) thinking that I may have a cheap acoustical room treatment I had not yet thought of using productively.


More to play with for later, it seems. Obviously any movable mass, including a chair or sofa will change up the room responses somewhat, but the degree of change from moving the open movable mass is what has me up and shouting so.

For now I set it back where it took me a month to determine the best placement for it when it IS active and I'll keep on listening to some old recordings I have.

I know some of us have multiple speaker systems in the same room, some used for various purposes while others sit idle, but I wonder if anyone else has had this huge change happen in their rigs after moving an unused something around.

Long long ago, when I could visit the hifi retailers, they always placed only the speakers we listen to in the room, all other speakers were removed, because the sound could and did play on the unused drivers and modified the music perception.
Actually, I am surprised to see so many speaker in Steve listening room.

They also never use a dust cover on the turntable playing the music. Try that, close the dust cover and pass your hand swiftly on top, see what's happen ! You might not be very pleased !

Hey, Jec, I'm sure your pineapple cake was fabulous. It is also one of my favorites.
Can't really share a recipe for my daughter's creations, since she does not make or even follow recipes. She just has a natural "knack" for baking that her mom also has. Hence, my troubling wasteline.

She gets an idea and finds she doesn't have all the ingredients she needs then just comes up with something delicious out of what is on hand. It's like she has the wisdom and experience of decades, but she's only been baking about six years.
I promised her early in her kitchen career that I would eat all her experiments, even failures so long as she keeps trying and learning.

Evidence of keeping my promise has already been mentioned.

Fair enough DD, just one question. Does she use tart apples?

Apple upside down spice cake sounds delicious.

Jec, hard question to answer. She usually uses the most tart little green apples she can find. Every now and then we can find some tart Winesap (little red) apples around here, but they are rare.
She once used the tart AND bitter crab apples from a tree growing in our old house. She hated it because of the bitters, but then she has very young taste buds. Most of us oldsters enjoy our bitters.

She has tried an English version of an apple tart that had way more cinnamon and butter than most tea cake lovers would tolerate.

If I was going to try to categorize her apple (and fruit in general) baking prowess, I would call it more like frittering. Could be the German heritage.

She surprised us all a couple of weeks ago with a cinnamon roll recipe she added bits of apple and shredded pecans to with some sweetened pecan butter glaze drizzled over the top. It was wonderful!

She always asks, "What does it need?" and it is hard to find ways to improve upon her instincts.
I did ask what she thought of using a springform pan and making one large cinnamon roll about the same as what she had just made, but instead of a glaze, cover the top with her spicy apples and a "crunchy" instead of smooth pecan butter.

Two days later, my idea became reality in her hands.
Hey, Pal, I could brag about my kids all day, but I'll hold off for now.

Record static is a PIA. At least half the year here, it's cold and dry and the gas furnace kills any moisture left after that. I use a zero stat almost all winter long. The zero stat has its limits, it won't free a brand new record from the electrified grip of the sleeve. Also, when cleaning records the vacuum adds static. Two years ago I bought one of these: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01IAV3GHO/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?i..., it was $20 in the warehouse. When I use it with the record cleaner, no static at all. I've tried using it to blow the static out of bed sheets...didn't work so well. Anyhow, for $20 it was well worth it.

I didn't look too much into this, some say using ionizers long term on plastic has negative effects on the plastic. So don't leave it on and pointed at your record shelf!

Hey, Groovy,
Yep, one of the first things I did when I was trying to find if I was just being a baby or if I was dealing with something substantial was to short the drivers. That changed some things, but did not make the entire effect null.

Back when I ran a sound reinforcement business ('79 to '98), one of the things I always did was to short the heavy cone drivers for travel. At first I used electrical twist lock connectors for my big bass bins and just had a male end on a chain screwed to each bin. Once the signal cable is disconnected I just plugged in the shorting adapter for movement and travel time.

I eventually found a DIN connector that could be set up to do the same thing internally. So I switched to those for all the big bins and that was great, although kind of spendy for the convenience.
Then about a month after I dropped big bucks to fit out 64 large dual fifteen folded horn bass bins and over 150 smaller midbass horns with the fancy DIN connectors, Neutrix came out with the about the same thing at one fourth the price. Face/palm

Anyway, shorting is also a test procedure I use often.


The Milty Zero Stat is one of the first items I tried for fighting static when they first came out, after trying grounded metal plates and such.
They work fairly well. About a year ago, I was thinking that my old Zero Stat from about 1980 may have lost some of its mojo so I bought a new one. It's about the same. They both work fine, just not all the way through an entire LP sometimes.

There is one almost free thing I also do which I have mentioned here before with no one responding or even trying it I presume.
I make up a spritzer bottle of "Downy" anti static fabric softener and spritz the floor and all around my listening area and path to my gear, then the back of things. I don't sprtiz the gear, just the surrounding floor and fabric areas. This actually drops it down enough to where the Zero Stat effect now lasts through an entire LP side without static apearing again.
It actually helps quite a bit.

Looking at Sean's comment, here in Indiana we run the furnaces about half the year here as well and the super dry air this creates is also super staticky. This time of year the Downy works as well as anything else I have tried. Adding the Zero Stat, I am much less bothered!
Still troubling. I can leave the room with my turntable running, the arm lifted, then when I return from another untreated part of the house to approach the table, you can hear my approach in the way the static responds.
TRUE!


Those air ionizers you guys suggested look amazing and if they help some, that is one more step in the right direction.
I just ordered the Feita version, but it says it usually ships in one to two months. Bummer.
Anyway, I'll have one eventually to try out.

Thanks to both you guys for the heads up!!

Hey, Sean, I'll probably switch my order to the one I can have this week, so Amazon will just have to deal with a bothersome customer.


I saw your mention of ionized air circulation influencing plastic products over time, but I wonder about how much time, how much exposure, which types of plastics, etc.
Something to look at more closely, I suppose.

Kind of like when they told us that with CDs you will get perfect sound forever, but did not mention that one of the things that ages a CD is the laser light that makes them work.


I know We've probably covered this elsewhere, but if I was going to recommend another tiny helper in the battle against static on LPs, I would mention that the Mobile Fidelity inner sleeves for all your vinyl does seem to help quite a bit.

However, as I mentioned before, I believe that most of my trouble with static is environmental and endemic to my listening space.

But I don't know how many times I have pulled out an LP and seen dust just fly onto the surface immediately after removing it from even some of the upper grade paper inner sleeves.

Mobile Fidelity is my favorite.

Any other ideas out there guys?

Not sure if this would help in your room DD but will make life more comfortable during heating months.

AprilAire 500 Whole Home Humidifier, Automatic Compact Furnace Humidifier, Large Capacity Whole House Humidifier for Homes up to 3,600 Sq. Ft., White https://a.co/d/1E9tPvj

John