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Returning Fan of Decware Products (Read 41222 times)
Same Old DD
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #200 - 09/27/22 at 21:23:51
 
So, JBzen, your thinking is to use no subwoofer system at all with the F15s?

Use them as they stand? Invest complete complacency in the FACT that this driver is way shy on low end performance? Everyone else says that as well. Just enjoy what I hear and learn to love it as it is?

I am actually doing that right now and I still love what I'm hearing! Honestly, most of the music I listen to has almost no content whatsoever below this driver's published low range capabilities (once I get there finally - have not tested, but not much on the low end at all, still) and even now, at this early stage, these sound great. So far, I love them!

I am still learning about how this new driver is going to work and it is still changing.
However, I am always looking to ramp up things.
And I will eventually miss the bottom octave I have always had before, whether it is a London Symphony performance or maybe a Steely Dan album. If it means even using too many drivers (four additional) to get there on the bottom, I will eventually miss what I have always had, I am sure.

I am still going to play around and I think I know where to start ramping up the lows when the time comes.
I have a lot more to figure out with this new driver set up. From where I am, I am willing to give a go as it is for a while before I ramp up much of anything. Set my Zens back together, first.

This week end was a "fun time" with a visit from family, some football, new movies, pleasant weather, some outdoor time, etc. and I took one of my Zens out of its normal stance to do constant duty as a background source of family friendly music for all.
So, for a while I am using my McIntosh on the F15s right now.  All those accolades I mentioned as achievements came from my using an '80s era SS amp and really enjoying it all.
I have not had a chance yet to re-set everything back to how I know it works best.

Before I do though, I intend another few hours of showing these stiff drivers some more gumption. Just have to wait until tomorrow when I am home alone again.
These things get really damn loud with fifty watts on them! Interestingly, they still sound about the same at higher power levels once you give them some space. That's almost like a pro driver.

The reason for all the goofing around with angles on the patterns of the low frequency foundation is in search of that REAL thing, without having to add more electronics to get there.

BTW, "floor slam" was Steve's term. I intend to call it a 90 degree adjacent secondary bi-cardiod propagation presentation for now. If I add a third plane of low fequency propagational presentation, I'll have to come up with a new name, obviously.
Grin

Just so we can agree, that "Does It Sound Real" thing will never go away.
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jec3504
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #201 - 09/28/22 at 02:31:46
 
Hey DD,

I'm running a W-15 powered by a plate amp. Using the speaker taps on the Torii. After changing out the stock tubes the two speakers blend very well.
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Doug
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #202 - 09/28/22 at 04:04:58
 
Same Old DD, I completely agree with you about the “Does it sound real” pursuit.  That’s the very reason my last three pairs of main system speakers have been quite large.  I have never heard a small or medium size speaker or a full range single driver speaker that could make me believe that a concert grand piano, a big (jazz) band, a modern orchestra, a rock band, a blue grass band, etc., etc. were in the room.  My opinion is that a big bass horn or multiple bass drivers per speaker are required to produce realistic sounding bass.  I could never go back to a speaker with little to no bass below 40 hz. Good luck as you continue working to get everything you can out of these Lii drivers!
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Same Old DD
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #203 - 09/28/22 at 04:46:16
 
Hey, Jec, I do not own the W15s (yet?), but I have some really nice low LOW drivers to call upon when I get to that point. I use the outs from my Zens for each.

I just tried to go to Parts Express to verify the model of plate amps I have, but their site is down for maintenance.
The ones I have are are 300W each and have a phase "dial" instead of a switch. They are about ten years old.
Which plate amp are you using?

I would be interested in how yours work.
Since you mention only the W15, how do you have them set up?
Do you have the F15s as well, as a combo?

I can understand the urge to use drivers from the same manufacturer, though. I used to make a living using a family of drivers that I knew I could trust 100%.

For right now, I am going to just explore these F15s as they are sounding much, SO MUCH better than at first.
And I only have just over a week and a couple of days on them, playing almost constantly something. It is early in the game for me, still.

I have number of ways to add subwoofer systems to these when I am ready.
For now I want to see just which tiger I have by the tail.
Grin
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Same Old DD
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #204 - 09/28/22 at 05:16:36
 
Doug, I have been using a speaker system that had very good low end performance since I can remember.
Last set up was my way of going for almost fiften years. That combination still exists and I am thinking of that arrangement as one of my standards.
I shuffled it some a couple of months ago, but my goals have not changed.

Nothing is off the table with me playing around with new drivers I just acquired. This is a process I feel might be worth my efforts and nothing has slowed me more than my initial impression, which was premature.

I have a small space, so large powerful enclosures are out, but I want the largest sound I can get in this small space (12X14X9+, not ideal!).
I don't normally listen loud, but I still have the urge to have my pant legs flap some once in a while and I have a seperate system for that fun.

If you noticed I posted in ALL CAPS earlier, I meant that almost as an "I am almost there" post, with more expected to come as these drivers loosen up even more.

Now, once these finish breaking in, I will want that bottom octave back.
I'll figure it out. I've done so more than once and for many people other than myself.

I agree with your opinion. Easy, effortless, super clean and clear sounding bass requires some real estate to do it right.

Tell us more about your large speakers and the amps you have chosen to drive them, when you have time.
Cool
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JBzen
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #205 - 09/28/22 at 09:06:44
 
I do agree with all you guys here. It boils down to trade offs and personal preference. Decware's SET amps can provide a mirror image of what it is fed. Single driver speakers are capable of reproducing that image to our ears. SET amps have difficulties in reproducing complex passages. Single driver speakers are weak for in the room band realism. Using other amps and speakers to overcome the forementioned weakness of the combo will ruin the delicate nature of music that the SET/Single Driver can provide. I prefer the latter.

I still have a DJ setup that many said it sounded like a real band was playing. I would not want to use it in my listening room. My room system is sounding "real." It is going through the process of eliminating noise for increased blackness by eliminating bulky connectors, adding soild core braided speaker wires, and installing better isolation Smiley

I'm on the fence at the moment of eliminating the Zrock from the system. It seems to be just another interference for the "real"...another dial to adjust, readjust, and confuse. The "real" being a limited(by media) image of the recorded process.

Good luck it satisfying your needs.

Looking forward to the real deal on the 7th!

John
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Same Old DD
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #206 - 09/29/22 at 13:35:21
 
I believe you're right, JBz, in that the changes we make are often trade offs which might take us in one positive direction, but the cost is losing something in another, already claimed direction. We're on the same page, at least.

We could argue about your stating that SET amplification can have trouble with complicated passages of music, though.
I listen to all kinds of music and some tracks have difficult movements or intrumentation. Zen SETs, even my older ones, have shown to have the best chance for making those passages believable as long as the recording is done well.
The sound has to be there to find it, though.
The biggest and best tiara on a pig won't get you a beauty queen as we all know.

I recently got my power cables improved quite a bit. That really helped with darkening the black background. It is like little speckles of something I barely knew were there were just gone.

My drivers are really coming together now.
My daughter and I were listening together last night and she likes, Skillet, a Christian hard rock band who use low pedal keyboard accents. Sound was great, but she noticed the lack of deep foundation.
"Hey, what happened to the low E?"
I was listening for it and it was there, but it doesn't roll through the room like before. She noticed.

My trade off and dip into a subwoofer system again, when it's time (not there yet) will be for the once in a while passage that actually has something to add from down low.
Other music, I do not want to know it's even there.

I've mostly been listening to jazz from the '60s and modern instrumental acoustic music, like DAWG and Garcia, Tony Rice, Mark O'Connor, Doc Watson, and a few string quartets for the past two days and these F15s are hard to beat! I'm only about ten days in here and I making that statement as a testament.

With a string quartet you can clearly distinguish the rosined bow contact with the strings above the resonant body of the cello. I don't want to compromise that kind of detailed soundstage. And, that is with me still using the McIntosh amp for now.

I have this afternoon, home alone, to give them one more hard push with power, then I'll get my Zens back into position.

We might still argue about apples over oranges, though.
Grin
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JBzen
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #207 - 09/30/22 at 08:26:21
 
DD,
What I'm finding in the SET experience is simple passages can be breath takenly real. A double bass is positioned right in front of me harmonically intact after finger compress strings slide off the tips. I can go on and on, but the point is on the complex passages that intimacy seems to weaken. The many instruments seem to blend and lose detail. If I concentrate on one of those instruments it can be followed without difficulty. So you could be right on the role recorded media plays in all of this or could it be that SET is so seductive that complex passages distract from the seductively?
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Doug
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #208 - 10/01/22 at 03:51:15
 
DD and JB, I too agree that it’s all about tradeoffs.  But, and this is a big but, having spent most all of the past 25 years living with SET preamps and 2 to 3 watt SET power amps in my main system, I tend to believe that my SET amps were not the part of my system leading to loss of intimacy and detail when faced with complicated and challenging passages of music.  My experience tells me that speakers and source components were likely the primary causes of any perceived corruption and congestion in more highly involved music.  

As I think back over the last five years, one of the biggest changes, and maybe THE biggest change I’ve experienced in system clarity and resolution happened when I purchased a Jay’s Audio CD transport and ceased using my OPPO UDP-205 as a transport.  Prior to making this move I would never have guessed that upgrading to a high quality transport could have produced such a huge impact.  The Jay’s transport was the very component that took away all the digital nastiness, brought detail that I never knew existed, and did it with unexpected naturalness and ease.  Highly complex music is so much more enjoyable with the Jay’s transport in the system.  When Linn introduced us to the idea of the source component being the most important link in the audio chain, I was immediately sold on their theory, and now 50 years later, it is still holding true.

Addressing intimacy from a different angle……..can we compare this to a face to face conversation between two people in the privacy of their own home and a conference call with fifty coworkers all in different locations? Maybe this isn’t a good analogy, but to me the reduction in intimacy and detail in more complex music seems normal and reasonable.  Reduction is probably the wrong word; there should still be a high level of resolution and detail, but it’s at a different level…..macro detail and resolution, if you will.  It is impossible to experience the detail and intimacy of a cellist playing a Bach Brandenburg concerto in a 20 member chamber orchestra that you would experience from a cellist playing one of Bach’s solo cello suites.  

I might also challenge the assertion that adding extra amps and speakers ruins the delicacy of the SET/FRD combo.  With concerted effort, some skill and knowledge, a little luck, and blessings from Steve’s audio gods, bass drivers can be integrated nearly perfectly with single full range drivers.  I wouldn’t go so far as to say that my system is a great example of this near perfection, but I do know that it is pretty darn good.  People entering my listening room wearing blinders, with Rachel Podger playing Bach’s solo violin sonatas and partitas, would never in a million years guess that the 8 inch full range Voxativ drivers, that are being driven directly by my Cary 300B amp with no crossover, were being supplemented by a little 60 watt solid state amp and eight 15 inch woofers.  They simply wouldn’t know, unless they saw the speakers and checked the wiring. How does it sound?  It sounds like a world class violinist is standing 10 feet in front of you playing a 10 million dollar violin.

I guess it all boils down to to different strokes for different folks.







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Jay’s CD2T-Mk3
Denafrips Pontus II
ZROCK2 25th Mods
CSP3 25th & Custom Mods
PAP Quintets with Voxativ 1.6
First Watt J2 or Cary 300SEI
driving Voxativs—no crossover
LFD NCSE driving 15” Woofers
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JBzen
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #209 - 10/01/22 at 14:46:43
 
Doug,

My CD player and DAC are over 20 years old. The two have been faithful reproducers of clean detailed media. However, the caps are on the border of needing replaced. This can be heard in the speakers as a low varying whine buzzing without any music playing but not in the music. Already did some research for replacements. Finding out that it will be a cumbersome task, I may go your route and seek out new units. Or, just dump the CDs and player and go with the CXVn2 ModWright mods.

Yes complex material has a tendency to loss intimacy's flavor live or reproduced. My comments of the comparative reproduced intimacy loss between SET, SEP, PP is based on what others have wrote and the nature of the circuits routing that flavor. Hopefully at Decfest their will be time and opportunity to explore this more.

Perhaps the word ruin was a bit to strong as to added baggage in reproduction that deteriorates intimacy. The biggest problem with blending a sub in a honest reproduction system is the media. The system can be tuned to blend well and one music producers results come across well but the next one may add some material that resonates with the sub. Been there.

Smiley

John
Edited:
The above statement of the "low varying whine" is mistated. The varying whine was caused by WiFi/hash signals picked up by the twisted input wires in the DAC. Those have been replaced by shielded braided wire. The aged capacitors are creating a low buzz(120hz) at the speakers.

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jec3504
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #210 - 10/03/22 at 13:56:47
 
Hey DD,

Built some test baffles using BB countertops. Added a single W15 with Dayton Audio SA100 100W Subwoofer Plate Amplifier. Pictures in Manny's tread https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1640039612

If you can get the drivers in phase they blend together very well. The single W15 adds a lot of depth and enhances the overall sound. This is using my Torii with all of the stock tubes removed. My room is bigger than yours and a single W15 is working out just fine.

Takes a little bit of experimentation to get it all to work. Definitely can relate why some might not want to use a sub with their F15s. Using the stock tubes that came with my Torii, adding the W15 sounded terrible.

Good luck sir,

Joseph
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Same Old DD
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #211 - 10/04/22 at 01:21:20
 
Thanks, Joseph.
I had seen those back a while and I am impressed.
Sorry for not commenting at the time. Been busy some and not reading here as much as I want.

I am not yet ready to add anything to what I am hearing with these F15s. Only two weeks in here and I am hearing things that I want to hear.

I do not even miss the bottom end much. Now, to be most honest, I have been listening to music without any need of a bottom octave, on purpose.
Then, since I am still playing them with my McIntosh, I give them a momentary ROMP every so often, when I get some time alone.
Man, these things can get loud and still sound great.
Even blasting some Led Zeppelin, I am getting decent bass now with forty or fifty watts on them. I generally go outside then and try to assess how much my neighbors hear, just kind of peeking in to see how it's going.
These drivers are moving, now!

I hauled them outside and measured them today (in their respective baffles) and they are at 62Hz on one and 64 Hz on the other.

So more ROMPING to come yet.
Still, a really superior pair of single drivers I have!! ... and as cheap as cow snot!

The value is astounding.
I'm a new fan! Yes, they still need more time to fully break in, but I am  really enjoying these, even considering all my trade offs.
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SE84Cs Mono'ed, Lii Audio F15 OB, W15 "H" Frame Subwoofer, McIntosh MC2500, Lazarus Pre, Dual TT, Ortofon, Kleenline Iso Power, Revox, Crown R-R, Pioneer Elite Digital Source
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Same Old DD
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #212 - 10/04/22 at 01:42:52
 
JBZ, I have not gone back to my Zens yet. I am still using my McIntosh for now.

But from what I have been using to listen and break in these new drivers, I am not getting any loss of detail or loss of micro soundstage placement, even with some orchestral music. Even when I go for "too loud for me" levels, things are holding together nicely.

I am pleased with these new drivers!

I know I'll play around with one of my many sub woofer systems eventually, but I'm not there yet.

Kind of still thinking a ZRock might make as much sense as adding a seperate sub system.
I have not heard one, but I will probably just buy one and try it that way.
I usually do that sort of thing when my curiosity is piqued.

Upstream interconnect cables are next.



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Same Old DD
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #213 - 10/04/22 at 01:56:51
 
Doug, I thank you for you comments.
Unfortunately, for me and my level of playback, I do not own a high quality transport or a decent DAC component system yet.
I am still a little new to this game. I use a Pioneer Elite 4k player for both, right now. It basically does all my digital. I have a way to go.

I am more interested in vinyl, though and I have made a few short strides in that direction.
I've had Zens for a while, but still kind of just getting going here.
Loving every moment of it!

Smiley
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SE84Cs Mono'ed, Lii Audio F15 OB, W15 "H" Frame Subwoofer, McIntosh MC2500, Lazarus Pre, Dual TT, Ortofon, Kleenline Iso Power, Revox, Crown R-R, Pioneer Elite Digital Source
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Same Old DD
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #214 - 10/04/22 at 19:15:17
 
I have not done much but listen today at my normal listening volumes.

I did give the drivers another romp while mowing was happening. Kind of felt like I could get away with it, again.

I have to say that sounstage has increased in front to back depth by a fair margin this week and that the bass is much more believable with uprights in jazzy tunes.
Smoothness in overall spectrum response has really been enhanced or moved forward toward improvement, though, over the past couple of days.
I could be imagining this, but I do not think so.
I am not hearing anymore "headache" peaks at all in the low mid, high bass regions.

Might be time to switch them back out, get my Zens back together, so I do not become psycho-accepting and just get used to them, to be most clear and analytical in my journey forward.

They are sounding so good though.
But sometimes exercise hurts and you still have to do it.

Kind of waffling between using my 4312 JBL, Yamaha NS-5 monitors or the Visatons plus dual 15'' with the open "L" baffles as interims. All very satisfying speakers.
Also thinking maybe I should just turn it all off and listen to mono for a day or so.

Either way, it is hard to think of resetting my "psycho-audio brain" without feeling like I am self flagellating in order to purify something, but it is one of my ways of judging my own assessments.

Do not do just one thing and start to call it quits.
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Same Old DD
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #215 - 10/06/22 at 18:29:23
 
I switched the F15s out and mostly listened to mono in my garage/shop for a day. Finished an outdoor project yesterday that has been looming.

Brought in the JBL monitors which I lived with for several years with rock and pop sounds.
After some Supertramp, Zeppelin, Yes, Blue Oyster Cult, Montrose, Bloodrock, Uriah Heep, ELP, etc. mostly skipping around, I got tired of the ported bass sound.

My Zens are back into place, now. Part of the plan from the first idea to switch things around some. Get my cables routed again, all that.

Switched to the sealed Yamaha monitors. Replayed some BOC, ELP, Chickenfoot. Then went into some sonatas and harpsichord chamber sounds followed by modern Celtic mysticism, airy World music style performances.

I intend to replay this short playlist once I bring my F15s back in this weekend. They have been singing to themselves all day now, playing bass heavy music. Baffles half inch apart facing each other, clamped together with a spacer all around, covered to deaden some of the sound, but singing to each other.
I want this long break in period done and gone!

I feel the need to get their Fs down closer to specification before they come around much more than they already have. They already sound Damn Good, just still a little shy.
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SE84Cs Mono'ed, Lii Audio F15 OB, W15 "H" Frame Subwoofer, McIntosh MC2500, Lazarus Pre, Dual TT, Ortofon, Kleenline Iso Power, Revox, Crown R-R, Pioneer Elite Digital Source
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jec3504
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #216 - 10/07/22 at 20:19:42
 
The F15s sound nice at an easy volume level. I imagine they will sound great with your Zens.  
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Same Old DD
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #217 - 10/07/22 at 21:09:39
 
Considering relieving the F15s from bondage, but I've been busy today.
The drivers are still going, singing to each other. Cranked them up quite a bit when we left for a while.
I'm actually anxious to hear them again, but the burn is necessary.
Listened to box speakers when the time came last night, after that ridiculous football game.

Spent yesterday afternoon and part of this morning collecting firewood with my son. Storm that rolled through last week made it easy to find free firewood along the side of many streets. Just ask. People want it gone. We helped a bit.

I have my Zens going together again and I have micro managed my cabling better than ever.

I feel this question might be basic to some, but does everyone already lift their cables off the floor?
Easy to do with IC and some power cables, which I never had a problem doing (I call that cable management, keeping things tidy) but I have discovered something with my speaker cables that perturbs me in some ways.
I think. I can't fool myself much longer. I am trying to convince myself otherwise. Speaker cables have the highest current and voltage in the system and should be most immune to any interference, right?

I read about this years ago and decided that my system was not resolving enough to notice such a thing, decided not to even look into this lifting the cables nonsense. Today it happened. I noticed something.
And I do not use psychedelic speaker cables. Mine are common.

I actually tried to point out many years ago on this very forum to another member that if you MOVE signal cables while music is playing you can hear the results of moving the cable. Never thought the floor was a part of the influence, but more likely every other thing going on in the space.

No one seemed to take me seriously, but we were pissing around with cable talk on the forum and this is something I had learned in studio work many years before.
Play a guitar and move the signal cables around and you get something freaky happening that shows up on the recording.

The speaker cables I am using are Audioquest, but I can not remember specifics right now. I want to say Rocket something. Got them for a song off a display we tore down, something with silver I bought when I still worked at a BBY store.
BUT I like them more than the many others I had tried, looking for something that made a difference.
These made a difference and now it seems to matter whether they lay along the tile floor or not.

With all the crap we have going in this house with wireless every damn thing there could possibly be, I must have way more interference from all that than I had imagined.

I am still trying to prove poopoo, but it is becoming harder to fool myself.

I think of my floors as a pretty good ground, deep clay soil, usually moist, everywhere in Indiana, massive concrete foundation in this house, ceramic tile glued to that.
Am I seriously running my cables through or into some kind of circuit taking all the crap we have going into ground and it affects something by distancing cables from some of that?

I don't expect a response. I'm already hearing what I am hearing. I have heard similar before.
But, speaker cables, too?!? Speaker cables? Speaker cables!

Struggling to think of just how much crapshite could possibly be constantly going through every cable, let alone the chassis of every component I use, I have going to and through anything and everything.
I have always turned off the lights in my listening areas, because I can hear them change at times; it's annoying. Is this that, again, but just more of it?
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SE84Cs Mono'ed, Lii Audio F15 OB, W15 "H" Frame Subwoofer, McIntosh MC2500, Lazarus Pre, Dual TT, Ortofon, Kleenline Iso Power, Revox, Crown R-R, Pioneer Elite Digital Source
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Same Old DD
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #218 - 10/07/22 at 21:24:08
 
Yes, Jec, they do sound really nice with most music, last time I listened a couple of days ago.

Mine are still a little stiff and I am doing my best to hasten breaking them in.

I am determined to get that Fs where it should be, according to specifications.
Making progress last time I checked them. Brought them down from 150Hz>78Hz>64Hz. I have not tested them in a few days.

I am considering placing them into my "L" baffles with a helper for the lows, but I still think I need to fully find what these can do first. Coming up on three weeks in, now.
Then maybe after some more time, play around with enhancing the lower end some.

I've read folks say they need a hundred hours to sound their best and I passed that pretty soon after plugging them in. I've heard "hundreds" of hours for the better and I am going to get there.
I was very disapponted at first listen, but after a few hours and some testing, I realized that these Bad Boys need a lot of love and faith to be the best they can be.
I am giving them that love.
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #219 - 10/07/22 at 21:35:34
 
Hey DD,

Quote:
ridiculous football game
lol we turn it off after the first quarter.

Hope you find synergy with you rig. Good luck sir.
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #220 - 10/07/22 at 21:42:25
 
Thanks! Synergy is pretty good most of the time.
These drivers are still almost brand new to me. We'll get there.

Are you at Decfest?

I am not able as of now.
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #221 - 10/07/22 at 21:47:33
 
No I'm not at Decfest. Would like to go. Maybe some year.
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #222 - 10/07/22 at 21:52:31
 
We'll have to find the "live link" and be there in spirit.
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #223 - 10/07/22 at 22:10:35
 
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #224 - 10/10/22 at 03:50:24
 
Hey, thanks for the link.
I tried to look in on things for a while a few times, but the whole idea just felt too creepy for me.
I began to feel a little like Buffalo Bill.
"It puts the lotion on its skin or it gets the hose again"  type of feeling.
I could not do it.
Shocked

Hope everyone had fun and learned stuff.
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #225 - 10/10/22 at 14:03:36
 
Oh DD,

That's heavy my friend. Wasn't a hidden camera. Nothing wrong with a live stream. The Decware stream sounded very good. Enjoyed the Sarah 300B. Very excited to have a chance to hear the WE tubes. Now I want one.





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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #226 - 10/13/22 at 13:20:37
 
Thanks!
I tried it a few times. I never knew what I was hearing, though.
Lots of great music, no doubt.
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #227 - 10/13/22 at 13:40:53
 
I have released my F15s from bondage and thought I would run a resonant frequency test this morning, but it rained fairly heavily overnight and still looked threatening about sun up time.
So my little outdoor "lab" is a no go. Not raining but very humid still. No need to do any more than listen for a while.

I gave them a week of non-stop play and just unpacked things, turned them out to listen close in and I am already hearing a huge difference in lower region output.
Still just working the MDF/plywood sandwich flat 36'' baffles and sounding great!
No sub system, just the raw drivers by themselves.

I have been focused on loosening them up because when I got them the Fs was around 150Hz on each of them. These were nothing more than large midrange drivers. I was very disappointed at first.

Not so anymore. Even perfunctory jamming a bit in my garage for the past hour, using an old bluray source spinning some rather run-of-the-mill CDs and a Yamaha P2200 for power, they sound really great, straight, no chaser or EQ.

I'll get them inside this afternoon sometime and set them up with my twin Zens.

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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #228 - 10/14/22 at 15:36:18
 
Mainly, the most I can say is a bunch of, "WOWs!"

Brought in my F15s to my tiny listening room and I now have them running on my twin Zens.
Speaker cables off the floor, but that is a topic for another time and place, maybe. Damnation, I did not want to ever hear that interference!


What I am hearing now, in my mock up baffles, 36" height, is reaching close to what I have always wanted in a speaker system. No deep lows, but adequate and enough to be quite palatable and even savory. Everything else is almost like a dream state or something intangible, very hard to describe, but right in the middle of my awareness.
I've gone from wondering if I wasted my time and money acquiring these drivers to falling hook, line and sinker for these F15s.

Believable highs that do not hang too long or fuzz off into an irritation, detailed mids with positive and stable placement of basically everything you hear, crisp dynamics throughout the entire audio spectrum with what seems to be a natural and musical decay after a fully coherent, precisely placed impactful, eye opening accent, completely identifiable reverberation characteristics from a well done reproduction recording, some new details I only rarely noticed are now a part of reality and easily re-created.

It's not just the mids that impress me with the stable reproduction and placement of tones. Even drum tracks which include a large, almost encyclopedic array of what we can hear in music are placed precisely and from the first stick hit to the well sustained resonance and decay of the drums, remain in the location of the first stick hit.
One drum strike does not travel all over your soundstage as it "ADSRs" in its normal way, the way with many three way or four way speaker systems tend to reproduce the same dynamic impact.
If a drum is struck at Ten O'clock, for instance, the entire sound of that drum remains at Ten O'clock throughout is delayed resonance and decaying release, right exactly where the first impact was located.
That impresses me quite a bit. Most speakers can not do that!
Even my long treasured little overly clinical Yamaha near field monitors can not do that as precisely.

I mean it sounds more real!
With close mic'ed vocals, it's just impossible to stop listening. SO much detail and even the human elements of swallowing and breathing, forming the lyrics from inside and outside the body is so close to as real as I've heard in a long time. More WOW!

I've not heard anything like DSOTM or other recordings with some deliberate and true low frequency content, but for now I don't need to.
I know that that last hand span on a piano is seldom used anyway in the music I most often crave for a listen.

I also understand that there is some ambience and even "AIR" (that impossible to define thing) deep down there in some recordings, especially concerts performed by way of a full symphony orchestra, that is often missed with most speaker systems.
I'll probably go looking for that deep sub bass eventually, but for now, I'm just going to enjoy these as they are.

I'm not a big Pop listener, so I am not really missing much with the rapid roll off in the lower octave anyway.
Maybe when my daughter wants to hear some more Skillet or I have need to put on some Michael Jackson for someone, there will be some moments where the shortcomings of open baffle design, not backed up with a few subwoofer systems well placed around the room, shows up, but not today.

I do like to jam out to some heavy rock once in a while, but I have another system out in the garage I can use to do that when the need arises.

These F15s are really working well for me now, just as they are! Raw, naked, exposed ...
They needed some rather deliberate and severe measures to hasten the break in period, but I managed.

I have not yet tried to measure any Fs tendencies lately, but last check they were at 62Hz and 64Hz. They are even better now after a week of singing to each other, clamped solidly face to face, out of phase so that when one receeded the other one tried to push it farther. Forcing them face to face also cancels much of the sound that would normally escape and possibly become annoying, just leaving them going all week.
Old Pro Audio trick, well proven ...

I am very happy with these and I feel they will only get better with more use.

Now it's time to start looking for real at some affordable hardwood options and do them up right.
I am still using a sandwich of 3/4 plywood, 3/4 MDF, 3/4 plywood, front mounted, back side splayed out some around the drivers, construction lumber footings, but mock ups of what I know I want to make eventually.
They're weighty, stable and solid, but we all want nice hardwood, don't we?


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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #229 - 10/15/22 at 13:06:08
 
My Lii drivers kept me up late last night. They just would not stop.

I toyed with toe-in and positioning half the night, but I've kind of dialed it in now it feels.

For me, in this room, if I imagine a perfectly perpendicular line from each speaker center point, those lines would intersect about a foot behind my listening position and just above that position by about a foot as well.
Seem to remember other folks having them toe'ed in more. When I go to shorten that triangle with more toe in, I begin to lose some depth of soundstage in this tiny room.
I have angled them up just a small touch. I "upholstered" a pair of small 1x2 boards with that spongy, grippy cabinet lining and they sit flat, offering the 3/4 inch lift just a bit back from the very front edge of the baffles. I have not tried to measure that back tilt angle yet!

I only have the baffles about two feet from the front wall and about one foot from each side wall. I started with them pulled out quite a bit more, but the more I shoved them back the better the soundstage AND the lower octave became. I had thought that the two properties would compete and I would have to find a compromise between that super deep soundstage and the benefit of approaching a corner for loading the back wave more tightly. I found the compromise position fairly quickly.

So I'm a bit away from the 1/4 - 3/4 suggestions from other audio brain trust commitees.
I have also taken down my upright corner traps and attached them to the front wall along the floor. Since they are longer together, they exceed the width of the front wall. I place the two small, left over pieces along the floor at the two side walls right behind where the baffles sit.
This move actually gives me much more pleasant and usable bass as well.

Playing "Kind Of Blue" a couple of times this morning, I am missing nothing from this current set up!
From the starter pistol with these drivers, I assumed I would always need to use a subwoofer system or several to even out the lower end, but doing so is not so urgent anymore.
Still a vast amount of playing in that direction to consider, but right now, we're good.
Smiley Smiley
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #230 - 10/15/22 at 13:18:55
 
Wait until you get some nice 1.5 to 2" thick hardwood baffles paired with the Lii Audio F15 drivers. Then you'll really experience the bliss. Randy's magnum's and Steve's baffles lead me down that path.

HK
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #231 - 10/16/22 at 04:14:41
 
I know you're right, HK! I'll get there eventually.

I've been looking at these Lowe's and other offerings for solid hardwood contructed or butcher block type counter tops that Geno clued me about a few weeks back.

I have also found a "not too far away" mill that offers 5/4 up to 12/4 scrap pieces at a huge discount that I could glue up myself. But, I do not have a large machine to do half the work for me.
I would be doing a lot of hand planing, even renting a bad ass electric hand held planer.

So, I'm still looking for the right solution in a pre-formed counter top product that could fill the bill.
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #232 - 10/16/22 at 04:25:36
 
Enjoying my F15s, I have come to realize that I have only been playing mostly acoustic instrumental or simple jazz music with some vocals, sometimes.

I have gone to my disorganized piles of boxes I am still working toward working on and found a random pile of music with mostly electric or even some synth heavy electronic recordings.
Add in a couple of pipe organ LPs and some Symphony releases to round out the challenges.

So far, so good.
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #233 - 10/17/22 at 04:36:25
 
Got back into moving the baffles around.
Ended up pulling them farther from the front wall. Almost three feet out, now.
I thought I was done moving these. I am not.

Still sounding good.

From "Bitches Brew" to "Tarkus" to Head East to Joe Bonamassa to Johnny Winter to Beethoven to Mozart to Mahler, nothing has left me wanting.
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #234 - 10/21/22 at 18:33:00
 
Did a simple Fs style (still mounted) test this morning. I am at 55Hz on one and 56Hz on the other.
I went back to my McIntosh for the latter half of this week's play. Pushed the drivers at times. Mainly just keeping them going constantly and saving a few dozens of hours on tube life. They're sounding good, though.

Plus, it's pretty damn difficult to beat the sound of this old McIntosh beasty power horse, anyway.
Really feels good to see the Fs coming down and almost reaching advertised specification.
Oddly the one that was consistently higher has now come down even more and surpassed the one that was consistently lower in Fs. Hmm, don't know why that could be.

No, I did not get them mixed up. I have a log taped to the back of each where I've recorded progress every time I test them seperately.

I abused them some this morning. I ran up a 10Hz and 20Hz square wave to about twenty watts looking to add some heat to the breakin period, but these drivers are so efficient, it's just too loud to do that for long.
The Yamaha P220 is the best SW amp I have, so it got the call.

I did not take careful SPL measurements, but the sound/noise was almost as loud as the carpet cleaner truck that came yesterday with its massive compressors running full tilt filling the entire block with a huge noise.
I had to turn it down before I even remembered to get a screen shot of the result, but it looked like most speakers I've done this to. Leading edge looked decent, but the trailing edge was a little slopy and sloppy, but fully recovered before the next wave hit. That's better than most!
Why am I torturing them? Because I've never had these before. I want to see how they stack up with other "known good" speakers I've had.
Grin


So, they are back in their spots about two and a half feet (latest) out from the front wall and playing constantly again, but at average listenable volume with no added loading.

So far, they sound great! I'm impressed by how they remain close to flat and maintain a heavy sound with some serious juice forcing them to play much louder than what I might call normal.




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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #235 - 10/22/22 at 23:42:38
 
Set my twin Zens back in and just listening since early this morning. Not much to say. You know already what I think of these new drivers.
I am happy.

I did have to deal with a minor tragedy early in the afternoon. A delivery truck half smashed a large branch on one of my trees.

Immediately the nosy neighbor brigade were there and there was some nonsense about going down to the home where the delivery was made to influence them to get the delivery company back out to deal with this.

Even the homeowner's association was notified and less than an hour after it had happened, they were in front of my yard taking pictures of this crisis.

There was NO danger to traffic or the sidewalk walkers, but six people were all trying to help me as the new guy to the nieghborhood to make this go away.

Bullshit!

I am a fully grown damn sight of an American man and I take care of my own security! Thanks, but no thanks! No snowflakes here!

I walked out after a bit and sawed the big, half broken limb down with my pole pruner and put the big pieces in my burn pile.
Tragedy is over, Nosy Folks!!
They were impressed at how I stripped the big log parts from smaller branches with my machete. I'll bet none of them even own machetes. I grew up in south Texas. You need a machete or two, even in Indiana.
Now, EFF the EFF off and go away, nosy neighbors!!
Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

Grin
I've been just listening today. Some fun playing in the other room,  but up until that, just enjoying.
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #236 - 10/23/22 at 04:00:43
 
Laugh at that. I did after I was over the simple job of taking care of my home after a super tall truck smacked my tree.
I just thought that happenstance would make a few smile, especially with several of us in new homes.

I have never had to deal with a public that worked so closely with some Home Owner's Association.
I'm pretty sure I did not sign up for all the monkey hand waving when I signed the mortgage papers.
I just wanted to buy my last house, which I thought I had already done, but things change.

We are good here and the neighbors will just have to learn to live with the fact that a man of men is now among them. Leaving me to my own ways would prove wise.
Cool
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #237 - 10/23/22 at 04:33:47
 
I have been listening and more importantly, alone, undisturbed and listening closely to this new set up.
Simple single driver, baby watts, some kludged room treatments, old turntable/pre and I can find myself approaching what only amounts to ecstatic peace and pleasure. It feels like I can just be. No expectation upon tomorrow, just be for once.

I can hear more deeply in than with my Visatons/JBL combo. I just sit back and it does not seem to matter what I have running at any one time, I just float away and into the music and even though I am only a small part of it,  I am there. Right there!

For instance, I put on Boston and it's not just Boston now, it's not so much that I had found the chords long ago but now the notes come to me with a more clear sense of what TOM was trying to show me. Then I get a sense of what more he had to say and I listen and I hear more.

No, I only sit with a guitar sometimes. I am not a player, just a hack, but I find a way into the music in ways that I have only rarely been able to find a way there before.
Now I can repeat what just happened and just feel my way through some passages that troubled me earlier. It's almost like I can just ride it or float on it, maybe fly my way with the music.

I have been here before but these new things are making feelings like this more easy to come by.

I love my current set up, simple twin Zens driving a really exposing set of wide range single drivers.

I am certain there is more out there for me, but for now I just want to hear all my favorite music a few more times.

I'm probably going to stop posting about this tribute to Lii Audio drivers. I just have nothing more to say.

I would actually like to talk more about that horrible grounding circuit near the floor for those experiencing this phenomenon.
I see all those three inch cable lifters available online, but mine have to be about a foot off the floor to finally defeat this noise.
Anyone help with this?

I'm not talking about signal cables. All my signal cables have always been short; only long enough to reach and cable tidiness demands that they are routed and held in place close as possible.

I am talking about speaker cables being influenced by the grounding (floor) circuit in our homes.
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #238 - 10/23/22 at 06:38:15
 
I changed me siggy to reflect my complete admission to the awsomeness of the Lii drivers, but I also added something yet to come.

I am in the process of building up an "H" Frame sub woofer system to play with for later. Just got going this evening, but two of these is an easy build. I noted JBL drivers and that could change, but, I doubt it. These have served me well for almost twenty years. NO damn Break In!

I have two different types of IB Daytons, JBLs built to be used for OB and Jamo designed for Infinite Baffle use for Sub Woofer duty.

That seems like a bunch of drivers (20 to play with), but I've been at this for a while.
I also have sixteen Infinity 12s salvaged from and old install upgrade worth considering.
I'm just kind of a 15" guy, though. Still do not know what to do with all those little 12s.

I have a number of ways to do this, but I have never felt any reason to not use my old Crown and McIntosh for this implementation. I will come straight off the Zen speaker outs to the Crown EXO and then to the power amp which will drive the sub system. Simple as it can be.

I think Rythmic Servo Amps would be better, but that is a way down the road for me. I will use what I already have and just keep playing.
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #239 - 10/24/22 at 20:38:08
 
I have a pair of Klipsch RP-600s that I really do not like much. It's not a brand new speaker thing, since I bought these for a song after pulling them out of a display at a BBY store where I used to work.
A new version came out and these were supposed to be replaced and the older ones sold. Overseeing such as this was a part of my purview when I worked there. Management above my position set the discount percentages.  I did not cheat in any way.
I grabbed them for my home theater area.

They had been there for months and were popular with the movie folks and sounded decent in a super dead room. Playing in a room with fifty to sixty or more other pairs of speakers sitting around absorbing sound, the display room is really dead.

Got them home, played AV stuff with them for a few weeks and they ended up, re-boxed and sitting in the attic.

So I stumbled across this series of GR Research vids where Danny Richie talks about upgrading these very speakers with better crossovers and cabling. Apparently, I am not the only one who can't actually live with them as they are.

Anyway, I saw this and nearly blew a mouthful of coffee over my screen.


A little jab at some of the True Believers in "Nothing Makes A Difference."
I thought I would share another laugh. Here's a pic of his Trigger Warning:


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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #240 - 10/26/22 at 19:20:15
 
I can muscle together an enclosure that wreaks havoc easy enough, done it many times.
But instead of making something that is painted black and disappears inside a dark place while summoning low frequency demons from the depths of darkness, I need to make these new cabinets appear almost as furniture.

I stumble on that task.
I am envisioning a semi gloss white finish with some nice tops and bottoms, but they still look like my grandfather made them to pull behind his mule team while digging out Fort Phantom Lake or something.

He used to say, "It might not be pretty, but it's Hell for stout!"

Kind of where where I am right now trying to kludge some "H" Frame enclosures.
Maybe pretty is too tall an order?


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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #241 - 10/30/22 at 22:39:57
 
I always plan for stereo subwoofers. ... or often a third, depending upon how the room works.
I only have one ready for now.

It sounds better than I expected using the JBL drivers I built up almost twenty years ago. I have not brought it inside yet and tried to mate it with the OB F15s.
That will come later.
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #242 - 10/31/22 at 20:59:57
 
I cut panels for two a few days back, but only have one complete, except for finish. It's still raw MDF.
The "H" baffle puts out quite a bit more lows than I expected. Two 15s opposed, but electrically out of phase, since one is reversed, but working in the same direction so in phase as far as cone movement.
Built one of these years ago for a "friend" and did not have time to follow up soon and look in much. When I went back to check he had it in a corner, behind his couch and was satisfied. Did not want anymore help. OK.

I am also curious to try a "W" baffle and I have spent some time today cutting some left over pieces for this idea. I will need some more MDF to complete one to try.
It has been a while since I had half my tools handy and running with the time to play.

Has anyone tried a Linkwitz style "W" baffle?
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #243 - 11/02/22 at 13:41:01
 
Curious to hear more from this "H" frame subwoofer, I have it set up with my mono stack in the garage using a simple Dayton plate amp.
About 300W on it, but no where near that much power used. I'm still using the old Fisher 401 70W/Ch on the rest of the stack.

I am cheating, though. There's a bass boost at 30Hz available on the plate amp and I have set in 6dB boost.
Even if I do not take this enclosure inside to try and match with the F15s, it has certainly found a home in the garage.
Wink

I still want to make up a "W" baffle, though and try them side by side.
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #244 - 11/13/22 at 05:13:48
 
I still have not brought the "H" frame baffles inside yet, but just playing ariound in the garage with my mono stack, these things can truly make some bass.
Nothing really low, mind you, but going down around 30-ish Hz is an easy task, using the Jamo infinite baffle 15s. Yes, I pulled the JBLs out and while these do not go as low, they seem "faster" to me.

I have run some perfunctory sweeps and some pink noise, along with setting them up to use Denon receiver Audessey (sp?) for some crazy iterations, I am still going forward.
They still sound good, so far.

I only have one built though. We all know that subwoofers have to be at least stereo, right?
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #245 - 11/19/22 at 19:38:07
 
Still have not gotten out to build anything again, yet.
Don't think I mentioned, I had another bad fall and broke two ribs a couple of weeks ago. Using tools is out for a bit longer. Changing a CD is OK, but using a saw or sander is a no-go.

Got rid of the Denon and I've gone back to the Crown and Yamaha combo for the "H" frame. EXO/clean sand power for the lows, Old Fisher driving the mono stack in the garage.  Found a big enough coil to seperate the 18s to lower voice from the 15s which reach the mid horns (actually using two large guage in parallel to get there).
I did not want to do crossovers, but I did not want to do electronic quad amping anymore either.
Some voicing had to occur.

These simple "H" frames do more than I thought they could. Reading from the guy who designed them, one would think there is hardly any reason to even try them. He was only half right.
There is plenty of reason to decide which compromises you can work through. Using a seperate amp system  is an easy one.
Mono stack rocks!

I have actually given up my indoor system temporarily to the women who are redecorating the house from a dead pumpkin patch and fleeing turkeys, to what ever a covy of fly by drunken Christmas elves who pass out, puke decorations everywhere and stay too long does to a humble abode.

Grin




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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #246 - 11/19/22 at 19:46:43
 
Sorry to hear about those ribs Old DD! Don't so anything to impair their healing and thank goodness cd-changing is unaffected!
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #247 - 11/19/22 at 20:54:08
 
Stay strong DD! Let them ribs heal. Christmas cookies will make your system sound even better.
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #248 - 11/19/22 at 21:28:55
 
It's OK, guys.
Third time in my life I have had broken ribs.
Kind of hesitated, hoping for a better outcome at first, but finally went to have X-rays done and DAMN IT!  Again!
Simple fall on concrete on the icy stuff, dark, rainy, icy (did not expect ice at the time). I messed up ankle to shoulder on one side, but I instinctively protected my dodgy, still healing wrist.

Mostly worried about my bionic hip at the time and it was almost OK next day, but I could not breath right. Shoulder was bummed a bit for a few days, but fine now.
I dread the next sneeze, but I'll tough that out too.

I'm fine, guys, just feel a bit punky when it comes to using any heavy tools.
No reason to worry, just I can not do much more in the shop right now.
I have plenty of things I would rather do than sleep most of the day.

Still dinking around with stuff, which means I'm still kicking in some direction or at least trying to.
Smiley
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Re: Returning Fan of Decware Products
Reply #249 - 11/19/22 at 21:34:15
 
Jec, even better than cookies, my daughter with her amazingly exploratory, yet well established baking prowess, of late, has made an Apple Upside Down Spice Cake for the family.
Imagine, candied apples for a topping over a deep spice cake.

I'll be fine!
Grin

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